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Timmy Thomas
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diderotn
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10/29/2004  11:18 AM
Nalod! You are making the mistakes that most Knicks fans make on all the boards that I am affiliated with. TT is not a rebounder and it is time for us all to realize that. The kid is a scorrer, with great handle, and a nasty post-up game. We have to use his strength, not his weakness. Going inside with TT may even convert him into a decent rebounder because of his athletisism. He has great court vision and can definitely command the double team. Remember that Naser and Sweetney are not scorrers. Their main jobs along with JYD is rebounding and defense. They should be the rebounders of this squad, not TT. An all around game is something that is developped. I can almost guaranty you one thing, if we go to TT as our go to guy, let him handle the rocks and be the final decision maker instead of Marb or Crawff, we will win 85% of our games by mid-season. Lenny should do this, take the first 25 games and utilize TT as the go 2 guy and see the result. If this kid doesn't produce all-star numbers than he should go with Marb and Crawff after that. I am telling you folks, TT is the real X-factor.

Posted by Nalod:

George Karl was the fall guy, but not not the problem. George took the fall, and for the World Championship team in Indy. And in the end, larry brown could not deliver the team either.

Last nite TT had 2 rebounds! Azira had 9. TT is Soft. S_O_F_T.
Lazy Miss Gazy soft!

You want to run the rock thru this guy in the post? He does not rebound! Putting a guy close to the rim who fight for the rock is a disaster. He won't work on the offensive end!

We got two problems, Lazy miss gazy inconsistantcy, and Jamals low shooting %.

Jamal will make good money as a backup to allan, and in two years he will be ready for prime time. Thats not hating, he is just not ready, and I still feel he has major upside. Just not allstar quite yet!
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OasisBU
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10/29/2004  11:21 AM
Nobody is denying TT is an x-factor on this team, however there are other players who should be considered go to before TT. He should be 2nd or 3rd option not #1.

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OldFan
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10/29/2004  11:29 AM
TT is the x-factor and will remain the x-factor.

He has been in the league 8 years!! You can say he's talented you can blame his coaches - but I think he is what he is. He is NOT a super star or even a star. Can you name one player who went from an inconsistent, average at best player to superstar in the 9th year of his career? Could it happen - hey anythings possible. But to build your offense around a 1 in 1000 possibility is not wise.

And if he does by some miracle start to play consistently on offense we can discuss how he gives it all back on the defensive end...
diderotn
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10/29/2004  11:53 AM
Let me define #1 option for you all
I am not saying building a team around TT, we already have Marburry and he should be the star of the team. However Marburry should not be the number one option by virtue of the position tha the plays. He is a play maker and that separates him from the other players. Our number one option option, specially by the makeup and talent level of our squad should be a 6'10" PF/SF/Center whom has an inside and out game which in return can help open the floor for shooters like Marb, Crawf, or Houston. I am not asking to let TT be the star of our squad. Let's use Detroit as an example. Hamilton is a shooter, and they don't ask him to be the star of the team. 80% of the times, he has the ball in his hands. TT can and is our best option as go 2 guy, even when or if Houston returns healthy. He can draw the double team and kick it out to the open shooter (Houston or Crawf) or slasher (Marb, Crawf, TT).

That is the recipe to success.

Posted by OldFan:

TT is the x-factor and will remain the x-factor.

He has been in the league 8 years!! You can say he's talented you can blame his coaches - but I think he is what he is. He is NOT a super star or even a star. Can you name one player who went from an inconsistent, average at best player to superstar in the 9th year of his career? Could it happen - hey anythings possible. But to build your offense around a 1 in 1000 possibility is not wise.

And if he does by some miracle start to play consistently on offense we can discuss how he gives it all back on the defensive end...
The true Knickabocker..........
newyorknewyork
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10/29/2004  11:58 AM
The most impressive thing about TT last night was he did it against AK47 who is a top 5 defensive player and made it look easy. Also vs Harpring and sometimes in traffic.

We all know that TT can score in many ways. But its the times when he isn't as envoled in the plays for what ever reason he should be doing what Ariza deos. Attack the basket looking for tip ins, put backs, offensive rebounds, keeping the ball alive.

From last night I took in that TT was at his best when Marbury or Crawford penitrated and the defense was off balance. Then he was able to pick them apart by shooting or taking them off the dribble. Crawford is versitile enough to do the same things as either being penitrater or shooter or putting the ball on the floor after the defense shifts so if they get that going they will be tough to stop. Plus KT can pop out and hit a few shots on an extra pass.
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knicks1248
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10/29/2004  12:52 PM
He really doesn't have to be a #1 option for us to have success, when he's hot you give him the ball, thats it. That how it should always be, with any player on this squad. And when the defense adjust you still have 4 other 20 point scorers on the team.

If any one player averages more then 20 points on this team, somethings wrong, unless were averaging over a 100pts ppg .
At this point, and because of the our depth there's going to be nights when Steph, allan, KT, JC and even penny will be able to put up some nice #s which will always keep the opposition off guard.

Why is it so important to have a goto guy, as oppose to having goto GUYS.
ES
diderotn
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10/29/2004  1:35 PM
You need to have a go to guy to help keep defense honest and to reduce confusion in the starting lineup. When everyone trying to make shots, it does nothing but waisting good possession. When you have a go to guy, you can at least get better percentage shots.
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knicks1248
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10/29/2004  1:45 PM
Dude unless you have 2 bonifide stars, like Kobe, shaq, malone stockton and so forth and so forth, then the defense can identify your go to guys, but when you have as many scorers as we have, how can any coach double one guy.
You talk about keeping the other teams defense honest, if you already know who's taking the shot, why not put your 2 best defenders on him, or design a defense play to defend him. Seems logical to me.

The only way to keep the defense honest is man to man, not double teaming.

I thought thats what depth gives you ( more then ONE OPTION)
ES
diderotn
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10/29/2004  2:10 PM
I am not going to disagree with you. TT needs touches, they need to go to him a little more than what they have been doing. 15 shots a game is not too much for this cat. We at least know that he is at least a 40% shooter. Instead of giving Crawff whom is less accurate more shots than TT, when we know that he will not make them, we should distribute our shots wiser. However, it is up to Marburry to bring the best out of his players.

Posted by knicks1248:

Dude unless you have 2 bonifide stars, like Kobe, shaq, malone stockton and so forth and so forth, then the defense can identify your go to guys, but when you have as many scorers as we have, how can any coach double one guy.
You talk about keeping the other teams defense honest, if you already know who's taking the shot, why not put your 2 best defenders on him, or design a defense play to defend him. Seems logical to me.

The only way to keep the defense honest is man to man, not double teaming.

I thought thats what depth gives you ( more then ONE OPTION)
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technomaster
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10/29/2004  6:26 PM
Oldfan, interesting topic you bring up... let's talk about late bloomers... here are some off the top of my head:

John Starks
Anthony Mason
Sam Cassell
Jayson Williams
Ben Wallace
Drazen Petrovic

Of all of these, Sam Cassell's achievements are more impressive than the others IMHO... late in his career, he's putting up number he could only dream about in his early-mid 20s.

I kind of think TT career will be somewhere along the lines of a Billy Owens or Donyell Marshall when it's all said and done. Good, so much potential, but never put it together year in and year out with any consistency.

Donyell Marshall's stats:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/2627/career

I'm okay if TT doesn't bring it every night on defense if he was more consistent on the offensive end. These oversized SFs often get a lot of criticism when they're not particularly good rebounders...



Posted by OldFan:

TT is the x-factor and will remain the x-factor.

He has been in the league 8 years!! You can say he's talented you can blame his coaches - but I think he is what he is. He is NOT a super star or even a star. Can you name one player who went from an inconsistent, average at best player to superstar in the 9th year of his career? Could it happen - hey anythings possible. But to build your offense around a 1 in 1000 possibility is not wise.

And if he does by some miracle start to play consistently on offense we can discuss how he gives it all back on the defensive end...
“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
bernard
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10/29/2004  8:40 PM
#1 option is not preordained, it's earned. We all know TT has sick skills. But he's not looking for 15 to 20 shots a game himself. Why should the Knicks be force feeding him. He's not making the cuts to get open, or working hard enough for post-up position. If he was productive w/ the ball a higher % of the time than the other guys, we'd call his # more often.

I'd love for him to earn more shots. I don't think you decide in advance that this guy who, despite all the talent in the world, has had trouble staying in the starting line-up of any good team, is your No. 1 offensive option.
Bonn1997
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10/29/2004  9:14 PM
#1 option is not preordained, it's earned.
I was gonna say the same thing. TT's gotta *demand* the ball and be aggressive with it on a consistent basis
timmyTtop
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10/29/2004  11:34 PM
thats exactly correct and thats exactly why phil jacksons coaching will better display tim's talents on a more consistent basis and help bring out the best in him. if you watch tim on the defensive end, he's very aggressive, so the passion for winning is there with him. phil can show him the way to success in the nba better than wilkens.
OldFan
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10/29/2004  11:35 PM
Posted by technomaster:

Oldfan, interesting topic you bring up... let's talk about late bloomers... here are some off the top of my head:

John Starks
Anthony Mason
Sam Cassell
Jayson Williams
Ben Wallace
Drazen Petrovic

Of all of these, Sam Cassell's achievements are more impressive than the others IMHO... late in his career, he's putting up number he could only dream about in his early-mid 20s.

I kind of think TT career will be somewhere along the lines of a Billy Owens or Donyell Marshall when it's all said and done. Good, so much potential, but never put it together year in and year out with any consistency.

Donyell Marshall's stats:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/2627/career

I'm okay if TT doesn't bring it every night on defense if he was more consistent on the offensive end. These oversized SFs often get a lot of criticism when they're not particularly good rebounders...



Posted by OldFan:

TT is the x-factor and will remain the x-factor.

He has been in the league 8 years!! You can say he's talented you can blame his coaches - but I think he is what he is. He is NOT a super star or even a star. Can you name one player who went from an inconsistent, average at best player to superstar in the 9th year of his career? Could it happen - hey anythings possible. But to build your offense around a 1 in 1000 possibility is not wise.

And if he does by some miracle start to play consistently on offense we can discuss how he gives it all back on the defensive end...

I wouldn't say any of these guys had their first breakout year after year 8. Only a few of them were ever their teams first offensive option.

Anthony Mason played great ball in NY. I don't think he got any better in Charlotte just more minutes. He left NY after 7 years. I think he
was just as good in 92-93 (his 4th year) and I would take Mason in year 4 over TT in year 8 anyday.

Starks had is best year in 93-94 (his 5th year)

Cassell - Hell he killed the knicks in the finals his rookie year. He has improved late in his career - but he was pretty established by year 5 or 6.

Jayson Williams - Never a go to guy. Best year was his 7th.

Ben Wallace - is basically the same player he was 4 years ago which was his 5th year. He's improved slightly and gotten a TON more recognition.

Petrovic - Only played 5 years - was averaging 20 by his 4th.
Bonn1997
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10/29/2004  11:41 PM
Posted by OldFan:
Posted by technomaster:

Oldfan, interesting topic you bring up... let's talk about late bloomers... here are some off the top of my head:

John Starks
Anthony Mason
Sam Cassell
Jayson Williams
Ben Wallace
Drazen Petrovic

Of all of these, Sam Cassell's achievements are more impressive than the others IMHO... late in his career, he's putting up number he could only dream about in his early-mid 20s.

I kind of think TT career will be somewhere along the lines of a Billy Owens or Donyell Marshall when it's all said and done. Good, so much potential, but never put it together year in and year out with any consistency.

Donyell Marshall's stats:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/2627/career

I'm okay if TT doesn't bring it every night on defense if he was more consistent on the offensive end. These oversized SFs often get a lot of criticism when they're not particularly good rebounders...



Posted by OldFan:

TT is the x-factor and will remain the x-factor.

He has been in the league 8 years!! You can say he's talented you can blame his coaches - but I think he is what he is. He is NOT a super star or even a star. Can you name one player who went from an inconsistent, average at best player to superstar in the 9th year of his career? Could it happen - hey anythings possible. But to build your offense around a 1 in 1000 possibility is not wise.

And if he does by some miracle start to play consistently on offense we can discuss how he gives it all back on the defensive end...

I wouldn't say any of these guys had their first breakout year after year 8. Only a few of them were ever their teams first offensive option.

Anthony Mason played great ball in NY. I don't think he got any better in Charlotte just more minutes. He left NY after 7 years. I think he
was just as good in 92-93 (his 4th year) and I would take Mason in year 4 over TT in year 8 anyday.

Starks had is best year in 93-94 (his 5th year)

Cassell - Hell he killed the knicks in the finals his rookie year. He has improved late in his career - but he was pretty established by year 5 or 6.

Jayson Williams - Never a go to guy. Best year was his 7th.

Ben Wallace - is basically the same player he was 4 years ago which was his 5th year. He's improved slightly and gotten a TON more recognition.

Petrovic - Only played 5 years - was averaging 20 by his 4th.
Dampier is the only player I can think of who had a breakout year at around age 30.

However, TT does *not* have to have a breakout year. He's already a fairly good player. If he could improve from 16/5 as a Knick last year to 17/6 with better defense, I'd be thrilled. It's not out of the question for a 27 year old to have that kind of improvement.
OldFan
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10/30/2004  8:07 AM
I agree he is certainly still capable of improving. He is talented and still young enough. My original comment was in response to him being the goto guy. I think you need to earn it and I think it is unlikely that TT will do that.
newyorknewyork
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10/30/2004  11:21 AM
Tim Thomas is probably the best scorer on the team. Even better than Marbury & Houston & Crawford. Only because he can score in more ways than all of them not because he puts up better #s. But he does shoot at a good % he shot 45% and 40% from 3. There is no problem with making him the #1 option on offense. But its the way they do it. And the way they did it vs Utah was perfect. Marbury drive kick out of the double to an open TT he can either shoot or put it on the floor. In a favorable matchup post him up as he is the best back to the basket option we have until Sweetney comes around.

He isn't a Kobe or Mcgrady or Pierce who u can just give the ball and hell make magic happen as he will look to pass more often than shoot. He looks more comfortable the way they did it vs Utah.

Marbury is supposed to be taking a back seat in shots this season so lets see how that works out.
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teslawlo
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10/30/2004  11:23 AM
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Tim Thomas is probably the best scorer on the team. Even better than Marbury & Houston & Crawford. Only because he can score in more ways than all of them not because he puts up better #s. But he does shoot at a good % he shot 45% and 40% from 3. There is no problem with making him the #1 option on offense. But its the way they do it. And the way they did it vs Utah was perfect. Marbury drive kick out of the double to an open TT he can either shoot or put it on the floor. In a favorable matchup post him up as he is the best back to the basket option we have until Sweetney comes around.

He isn't a Kobe or Mcgrady or Pierce who u can just give the ball and hell make magic happen as he will look to pass more often than shoot. He looks more comfortable the way they did it vs Utah.

Marbury is supposed to be taking a back seat in shots this season so lets see how that works out.
I agree.
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rojasmas
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10/30/2004  3:41 PM
Tim Thomas is not lazy. He just is not assertive. It always seems like he is hustling to me. Why he doesn't get more rebounds is a mystery though. He always seems to time his jumps on rebounds wrong and not catch the ball at the top of his jump.
More importantly, Wilkens seemed to let him play a two man game with Marbury last year at times which no other coach before him allowed. Thomas would post up and back his man down for a short turnaround or drive or kick it back out when he was doubled. This seemed to work well, ie; the Sacramento game when he had over 30 points. Now that TT is even buffed up more, hopefully he can get to the basket and get fouled more. If he gets to the line 6-10 times a night he could really average close to 20 a game.
But with Crawford gunning and Marbury gunning, who knows what personality this team will take on. I hope for the best. TT should be a main option though.
We could be the Dallas Mavs of the East.
Bizzy211
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10/30/2004  4:33 PM
Personally I feel the Knicks have to many weapons to just have a main option. T.T turned it on the last game of the preseason which doesn't validate him being the main scoring option. I think the ball just needs to go around too much for there to be any main scoring options. He should be a starter no doubt, with well designed plays ran for him. And Isolation on the post, but you might also have Sweetney, Crawford, Marbury and Nazr in the game as well, and they all need fair amount of shots.

To sum it all up, the go to guy should be the guy who is effectively scoring that game. We can't force players to score because as a team we need to learn how to have confidence in one another.
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