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BRIGGS
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10/23/2004  10:38 PM
i guess we had to do what we had to do to get Marbury and crawford by taking on the excess players at high salaries for YEARS.

OK but we need these players to play to acceptable levels consistently and WE NEED production from

A.Andersen
B Brewer
C Sundov
D Norris

because its a long NBA season and there are many points that you need your extra players to help win games ESPECIALLY with h2o????


We need to make ammends with Andersen because he has the most talent of that bunch and the biggest$

to me--i have seen NOTHING that leads me to believe brewer and sundov arent anything more than CBA players theyve done nothing in 4-5 years in the NBA--by this time you have to be productive or good bye


we need to be opportunistic and realistic

if these guys cant show ANYTHINg they need to be GONE for players who have played darn well but may be roster casualties no matter what

Guys like Arthur Johnson Smush parker Troy bell Pape snow for examples of frontcourt and backcourt guys who have SHOWN they can play. Its all right to have prospects but they need to be counted on if neded. I dont think Brwer and sundov have the skills im confident they dont.



we need to address this
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teslawlo
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10/23/2004  10:45 PM
That's why need to pick those diamonds out of the rough - I think the Bobcats did a GREAT job picking guys this year. Look at Brezec - everyone knew all he need was some PT to explode, but the Bobcats were the first one to give him some PT! Sundov is of a similar situation I believe, albeit maybe significantly less talented at ths point.
i think the players you listed - the over the hill veterans - are going to be the last you'll see after the next few years.
I believe IT will fill up his roster with prospects, not "name only" veterans who are getting paid big $$$ <- those are only trade fillers come on, IT is just waiting for those contracts to expire. In the future the Injured List will be reserved for guys who want a roster spot with the Knicks, a team which should be an honor to even play on.
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djsunyc
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10/23/2004  10:46 PM
i agree, somewhat.

sundov is 2k5's version of greg butler. i have no idea why he's here. anderson CAN be serviceable and CAN be helpful. in fact, this may be a role where he can thrive on in 10 mins/night. the only problem is, his role would be a defensive player off the bench, is kinda filled by ariza and i think we ALL agree that we'd much rather have ariza play than anderson.

brewer should be lucky to get 5 mins A WEEK.

i think isiah needs to fill those final three spots with young players with nothing but raw potential and diamonds in the rough. much easier said than done.

we are pretty deep though to sustain a long season. we still need to get a jump shooter since our need for an athletic defensive center would be much tougher to fill unless they truly believe h20 can come back for 20-25 mins/night.
fishmike
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10/24/2004  10:55 AM
those guys are garbage and will get 10 minutes a game IF somebody is hurt.
right now we are probably
Marbury
Crawford
TT
Sweetney
KT
with a bench of
Nazr, Vin, Penny, Ariza
Thats a 9 man rotation with considerable depth. When Houston comes back its 10 guys and my guess is Penny's minutes feel a crunch, but it depends on who's playing well.

Of the 9-10 guys above who's losing minutes so
A.Andersen
B Brewer
C Sundov
D Norris
can give you production
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
crzymdups
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10/24/2004  11:07 AM
Nazr needs to start in my opinion. If for no other reason than you want to up his stats and show case him for a potential trade. But as evidenced by Minnesota and 4th quarter Dallas, he can score and rebound in traffic better than most of our players. Kurt will probably start at PF at first, leaving Sweetney to be ideal for hustle and energy, while still playing 28-30mpg (with Kurt and Nazr's foul trouble, this is a given). I want Sweetney to EARN a starting job.

With that out of the way, I think that the only usable player of Briggs' four is Brewer. He plays like a linebacker and this team needs guys like that. I don't think Sundov is a problem, he's insurance if Vin or Nazr gets hurt. I think we have a good depth problem right now, and I agree that its needed throughout the season. But we have more depth this year than in any other, nevermind the dead weight on the IR (Moochie, Sundov, I agree Shan is still useful, but it won't be here....Isiah hath spoken!)...

[Edited by - crzymdups on 10/24/2004 11:08:09]
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MaTT4281
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10/24/2004  11:15 AM
Nazr needs to start in my opinion. If for no other reason than you want to up his stats and show case him for a potential trade. But as evidenced by Minnesota and 4th quarter Dallas, he can score and rebound in traffic better than most of our players. Kurt will probably start at PF at first, leaving Sweetney to be ideal for hustle and energy, while still playing 28-30mpg (with Kurt and Nazr's foul trouble, this is a given). I want Sweetney to EARN a starting job.

Comeon, you can't give Nazr a free pass, especially if you want everyone else to earn their spot.
If Nazr isn't playing well, I want Kurt, or even Vin, to start at C.
crzymdups
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10/24/2004  11:51 AM
Posted by MaTT4281:
Nazr needs to start in my opinion. If for no other reason than you want to up his stats and show case him for a potential trade. But as evidenced by Minnesota and 4th quarter Dallas, he can score and rebound in traffic better than most of our players. Kurt will probably start at PF at first, leaving Sweetney to be ideal for hustle and energy, while still playing 28-30mpg (with Kurt and Nazr's foul trouble, this is a given). I want Sweetney to EARN a starting job.

Comeon, you can't give Nazr a free pass, especially if you want everyone else to earn their spot.
If Nazr isn't playing well, I want Kurt, or even Vin, to start at C.

I agree you can't give him a pass, but he may be our best rebounder (I believe he led the team after his arrival last year) and inside scoring threat (shot 57% as a Knick last year). I think we need to see if he can average 10 and 9 with over a block a game as a starter. It would make him extremely tradeable and hey, maybe even help us win to have at least someone who's 6'10" in the middle.

The fact that Tim Thomas is our biggest player and won't touch the paint still annoys me to no end. I love his offense and obviously, he's quite important to the team's offensive schemes, but damn that guy should average at least 8 boards, even from the SF position.
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BRIGGS
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10/24/2004  11:52 AM
fishmike-we have to many guys who are shaky in terms of injury and who knows with Vin B.
andersen is a quality back up player[but we have also created a poor atmospehere for him which could effect his play]

honestly sundov brewer and norris are terrible in terms of deep bench quality. I know most teams dont have tremendous quality--but
A we already have a 100mm$ payroll--so we should have a quality player at everyone of the 12 positions, right sounds reasonable??? I mean for what we needed we couldve gone out and spent a little more money on Chris Mihm than Baker[all done so no harping] brought in a higher quality cheap PG like Brevin Knight and look to be opportuistic in finding plauyers who will be cut because teams have to many roster spots locked. Guys like Arthur Johnson Troy Bell Smush Parker Dahntay Jones Damien Wilkins etc.. these guys have all showed they can play NBA basketball. Sundov and Brewer have had 4 years and from my observations they are NOT NBA material. It doesnt matter how or what you do in practice--sometimes guys are good practice players--kind of like sparring in boxing--but cant translate that to the games.


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crzymdups
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10/24/2004  11:55 AM
Posted by BRIGGS:

Sundov and Brewer have had 4 years and from my observations they are NOT NBA material. It doesnt matter how or what you do in practice--sometimes guys are good practice players--kind of like sparring in boxing--but cant translate that to the games.

I agree about Sundov. Brewer has shone flashes this preseason and I think is worth an extended look. It could be valuable to have a guy who can lock down the opposing PG (remember what Frank Will did to JKidd in Games 3 and 4 last year?)....

I don't think Shan can ever be useful here again with the atmosphere that Zeke created. He should just buy him out at this point and sign one of the guys Briggs mentioned for a chance to be 12th man.
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fishmike
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10/24/2004  5:35 PM
Briggs... I agree 1000% that for our payroll every guy on the roster should be quality and able to offer something and contribute on any given night. But much of the roster right now is an effect of Layden regime. Isiah chose the path of making big moves and forming a team that could play right away. The only way to do that was to bring in more $$$. Anderson is left over from Layden. Moochie was swapped for Spoon (equally useless). Most of the other guys you mentioned were just training camp invites.

I personally would have prefered Doleac to Baker, but its also nitpicking. Neither are the player that really gets us to the next level. Anything at the 5 spot now is a one year stop gap move. My guess is we are just going to have to be patient. ISiah made us younger more skilled and more athletic overnight. He's just going to have to wait another year now to make us big.

Who knows how this season pans out but I think his prioritys should be to resign Ariza to a 6 year deal w/ the MLE (probably not all of it) and use the draft pick and some of the expiring deals to get big.

In the meantime watch Sweetney, Ariza and Crawford mature and hope we have enough to win the Atlantic.
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Bonn1997
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10/24/2004  5:48 PM
Posted by fishmike:

Briggs... I agree 1000% that for our payroll every guy on the roster should be quality and able to offer something and contribute on any given night. But much of the roster right now is an effect of Layden regime. Isiah chose the path of making big moves and forming a team that could play right away. The only way to do that was to bring in more $$$. Anderson is left over from Layden. Moochie was swapped for Spoon (equally useless).
Under Isiah, the payroll went from about $90 mil to about $100 mil. It's not much of a change. But under Layden the team was winning 30 games a season
islesfan
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10/24/2004  9:37 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Under Isiah, the payroll went from about $90 mil to about $100 mil. It's not much of a change. But under Layden the team was winning 30 games a season

And how much in additional salary have the Knicks taken on under Isiah? Something like $180 mil between the Marbury and Crawford deals alone? That's a pretty big change.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bonn1997
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10/24/2004  9:53 PM
This summer the Knicks added less long-term salary than most teams
NineMike2Whiskey
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10/24/2004  10:46 PM
'And how much in additional salary have the Knicks taken on under Isiah? Something like $180 mil between the Marbury and Crawford deals alone? That's a pretty big change."


Well it's not like they're 30 and their deals expires when the are pushing 40. Seriously, i honestly think that we paid Crawford (who looks like a 18ppg 4ast 4rbd player with UPSIDE) just about the right amount and ppl seem to forget we have tinytim and lil penny comming off the books......
Bonn1997
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10/24/2004  10:55 PM
The only long-term contracts Isiah added are Marbury and Crawford and it's hard to complain about adding those players.
Nalod
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10/25/2004  9:12 AM
IT was either blow it up, or buy your way out.

The fact Sweets and to a lesser extend Azira will be a part of the team is the clinch for me.

Some team can afford to do it, some can't.

Just keeping an eye on the future is very important.
islesfan
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10/25/2004  7:27 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

The only long-term contracts Isiah added are Marbury and Crawford and it's hard to complain about adding those players.

And Penny and TT and JYD and Moochie and he resigned KT to a long term extension. Other than those guys, you pretty much got the list right.

Oh and its not that hard to complain about signing Crawford to as big a deal as he did. With all the leverage Isiah gave it up like a girl on prom night.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
tkf
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10/25/2004  8:00 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bonn1997:

The only long-term contracts Isiah added are Marbury and Crawford and it's hard to complain about adding those players.

And Penny and TT and JYD and Moochie and he resigned KT to a long term extension. Other than those guys, you pretty much got the list right.

Oh and its not that hard to complain about signing Crawford to as big a deal as he did. With all the leverage Isiah gave it up like a girl on prom night.

why overexaggerate? I guess you live by the motto "never let the truth stand in the way of proving your point" right? I mean between craw and the remainder of stephs deal, you are looking at roughly 100 mil, not 180 mil... next crawford's deal IMO will be a steal over the next few years, I mean 8 mil a year for a 24 year old supertalented player is a steal, 3 years down the road when 8 mil will be chump change, the crawford signing will be a bargain...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
Marv
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10/25/2004  8:05 PM
[b]
Oh and its not that hard to complain about signing Crawford to as big a deal as he did. With all the leverage Isiah gave it up like a girl on prom night.

I don't quite get that. First off, I recall Craw's agent trying to sweat Isiah for $10M/yr. and Isiah getting it down to 8. Secondly, are you really complaining about locking up a young talent like Crawford at $8M/per? You see the contracts that are handed out in this league?
Kwazimodal
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10/25/2004  8:06 PM
Islesfan,Im curious.Do you believe that there is anything that Isiah has done right? Ive criticized his promoting KT to captain and the way he handled the departure of Chaney and I wasnt thrilled about him signing Moochie so I dont believe he has been 100% right,so I ask you as someone who has also criticized Isiah,is there anything you believe that he has done right?
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