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right now I love Kurt starting at center...
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fishmike
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10/21/2004  12:38 PM
If only for the reason that it guarentee's Sweetney 30 plus minutes a game. Also it can help boost Kurts numbers and increase his trade value moving forward.

The players and coaches cant stop talking about Sweetney so this makes a lot of sense.

The downside is I viewed Nazr as a nice asset and stop gap center. Someone that might help us land a good player next offseason when he's in his walk year, but right now his stock is total doodoo. The guy cant stop hacking people and half of them are CBA reject just trying to make the freakin roster.

Unreal
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TMS
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10/21/2004  12:44 PM
i agree w/ur thinking...i hope KT can increase his trade value by the allstar break & they can trade him for a young C...if not, i say trade Nazr & a 2nd rounder to WAS for Haywood if you can & sign him to a full MLE deal.
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Allanfan20
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10/21/2004  12:57 PM
Nazr has somepotential on the boards, but it's clear why he was an Atlanta outcast. For business and basketball purposes, I'd want KT starting at center over nazr anytime, and Baker hasn't been doing crap, apparently, either.

Hopefully, KT plays with a brain, though, so he can increase his trade value.

And unless Sweetney plays like crap, I don't see how he wont be getting 25- 30 minutes a game., whether KT starts or not.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
BigSm00th
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10/21/2004  1:12 PM
Why is everyone in a rush to deal KT? He is our best big man at this point, and there are no "young C's" who are worthwhile. Everyone refers to these ambiguous players like they grow on trees, I really can't think of one. Who are you referring to?

Also, Nazr doesn't have potential. The guy's been in the league now for 7 years, you don't just magically improve after that. He'll play 25 minutes and grab 7 rebounds. There's nothing he's going to improve on. Let's stop expecting stuff from Tim Thomas and Nazr Mohammed, they're in their late 20s and they've peaked as mediocre underachievers.

[Edited by - bigsm00th on 10/21/2004 13:15:59]
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OasisBU
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10/21/2004  1:14 PM
Posted by BigSm00th:

Why is everyone in a rush to deal KT? He is our best big man at this point, and there are no "young C's" who are worthwhile. Everyone refers to these ambiguous players like they grow on trees, I really can't think of one. Who are you referring to?

Yeah its pretty sad, there really are no impact 5's coming out of schools these days - is it the system or are we growing them smaller?
"If at first you don't succeed, then maybe you just SUCK." Kenny Powers
knicks1248
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10/21/2004  1:32 PM
DUDE having KT at center makes us the shortest ( probably in the history of the league) team.

When your Center his 6 9" and is the tallest person in your starting line up, thats a HUGE HUGE problem.

His stock won't rise if opposing teams continue to domiate us in the paint, and you also would be asking a lot out of sweetny a 2nd year player who averge less the 15 minutes a game last season.

Your basically stuck with Nazy ( Mr. genius IT) and Now you want to bench him because he cant stay out of foul trouble and is midocre on his best day.

Explain to me what tandem was better Doleac & KVH, or TT and NAZY.
ES
bernard
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10/21/2004  1:57 PM
KT was a legit all-star candidate at center 2 or 3 years ago. Magloire made all-star game last year, didn't he, and now he's in the West? Even w/ Shaq and healthy big Z, the East centers are mighty weak.

Against most teams, KT'll do fine at center. Against a handful, he'll get chewed up. Would be great if Nazy or Vinnie stepped up and won the position. If that doesn't happen, what Lenny is talking about makes most sense. These guys all are roughly the same size. None is a shotblocker. KT rebounds as well as any of them other than Sweets. Play the guys who are most productive the most, and hope that our exterior D improves enough so that the lack of inside help isn't too glaring.

If we can pick up a defensive center who provides presence (w/o giving up Marbs, Sweets or Ariza) before the trade deadline, by all means, do it. Otherwise, we have an entertaining but obviously flawed team with a good shot at getting to the 2nd round this year, and we add the center we need to be a contender in the offseason or before next trade deadline.
NYK3
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10/21/2004  2:06 PM
I also like the idea of KT at center cause he draws opposing centers away from the paint and on the perimeter cause KT can step out and knock down 10-15 foot jumpers all night
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Vmart
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10/21/2004  2:19 PM
Just as I suspected. You guys have forgotten the past.
gunsnewing
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10/21/2004  2:27 PM
Our starting lineup will finally look better than our second string lineup. When I saw the Knicks scrimmage I couldn't believe how much better the second unit was with Sweetney, ariza and penny in there. Gotta do the best we can with what we got! I'm even more excited about the Knicks now!
fishmike
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10/21/2004  2:43 PM
Kurt isnt a center... and we will never be a great team until we get one. Kurt is however a good fit for that squad in terms of style of play. Also having Nazr and Vin off the bench should help. We wont need KT to play 40 minutes a night. When his backup was Doleac or Travis Knight it was pretty slim pickings.

Kurt was never even close to all star. He had inflated numbers in one of the worst frontcourts in NBA history. He wasnt an all star then and wont be now. What you hope he can give you is 25-30 minutes a night of good rebounding, help defense and hard nosed play, preferably in the 1rst and 4th qtrs.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
BRIGGS
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10/21/2004  2:44 PM
no this is a terrible development. were not winning with guys this small. yes we will win, but this is radically changing the plan. this thing that were are giving up with nazr so quickly is terrible. we went out and traded doleac and a pick--the guy had some nice moments at C last year--theyre giving up on this to quick.

i dont know how this team is going to go with all of this shuffling and second-guessing so quickly. i see a very mediocre team that costs over 100mm $
if vin baker is shot nazr is cast away TT is still the same 14 and 4 softie+ KT is back to starting C what can you say?
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djsunyc
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10/21/2004  3:08 PM
you're right, we need to give nazr some minutes. the problem is that he can't stay out of foul trouble. i don't know what's going on with him but it's been really disappointing so far. and i was never vin baker fan and i don't like his game. i HATE the fact that he gets the ball and his only thought is to take the shot. he has no concept of passing and has no concept of what's a good shot or not.

yes, i'm way more concerned about those two now than two weeks ago BUT we can't abandon nazr yet. thomas and sweetney give us a better frontline with nazr and vin off the bench but that's abandoning the plan, at least i, thought was in motion and that's with nazr being the center with sweets challenging kurt.

but on the other hand, sweets does get major minutes this way and i've been saying this all along, the only real goal for this season, to me, is to see if sweetney is our pf for the next 10 years.
knicks1248
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10/21/2004  3:21 PM
Exactly my point briggs, yet everyone seems to be praising IT for something that hasn't happen yet.

The only thing Isiah should get credit for thus this far, is the change in attitude, his player movements have yet to produce any real success, and from the looks of things ( still early) Lenny is going to have his work cut out for him, probably worse then chaney.

I'm betting he wont make through the year.
ES
Allanfan20
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10/21/2004  3:28 PM
and i was never vin baker fan and i don't like his game. I HATE the fact that he gets the ball and his only thought is to take the shot. he has no concept of passing and has no concept of what's a good shot or not.

Kinda like Mutombo. I don't remember him passing once. lol

Again, we need to be looking at the young centers around the league, and see if anyone is available for what we have. I really think Isiah took his eye off the ball, when he missed out on Chris Anderson.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
TheloniusMonk
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10/21/2004  3:35 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:

no this is a terrible development. were not winning with guys this small. yes we will win, but this is radically changing the plan. this thing that were are giving up with nazr so quickly is terrible. we went out and traded doleac and a pick--the guy had some nice moments at C last year--theyre giving up on this to quick.

i dont know how this team is going to go with all of this shuffling and second-guessing so quickly. i see a very mediocre team that costs over 100mm $
if vin baker is shot nazr is cast away TT is still the same 14 and 4 softie+ KT is back to starting C what can you say?

BRIGGS, you truely seem to NOT understand the purpose of the preseason. Shuffling yes. Second guessing, no. If Lenny doesn't try a whole bunch of things now then when will he try them? The first few games of the season when these games count against out record? Look around the league. We're not the only team experimenting with different lineups. That's how a team finds they're identity.

Lastly, what's the worst that could happen? Vin and Nazr are NOT rebounding the ball AT ALL! Everytime we give up an offensive rebound it's 2 points to the opposing team. Our guys who are 6'8 and 6'7 (Kurt, Sweets and Ariza) are outrebounding them BY FAR. So what's the worst case scenario? VIn and Nazr get on their grizzly and start actually hitting the boads relentlessly. Nothing is easy in this league. They should earn their minutes just like everyone else. I HOPE that they start maning the paint like trues centers should. If they do, great for us. But they need to relize that just because you guys are the tallest on the team doesn't mean you shouldn't work as hard as our undersized bruisers work.

It's the Knicks baby.....HARD WORK!!!!!
'You can catch me in Hollis at the hero shop!' -Tony Yayo
fishmike
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10/21/2004  3:35 PM
I totally disagree with Briggs. Players need to earn their time. Layden not only made mistakes, he refused to change them. If Nazr wants to start or get major minutes at center he has to earn them, plain and simple. When he can play 5 straight minutes without picking up a foul he will get more time. Its that simple. Force feeding a player minutes because of what you gave up to get him is sheer lunacy. It hurts the team and doesnt ensure you have the best people on the court.

Should we sit Ariza because we gave up so much for TT and Penny? And we want them to earn their huge paychecks so we HAVE to give them minutes? Or should Ariza get minutes because his play has earned him those minutes?

Nazr isnt 22 like Sweetney.

Who's to say starting Kurt isnt temporary? If Nazr starts to play better his minutes will increase. Its not like Nazr is the future of the org and this is just hindering his development. This guy has some untapped potential but why cant he earn his burn like everyone else? I'm sure if KT isnt performing well enough his minutes will go down.

I dont understand how on one hand you can say we arent winning w/ KT at center (a temporary more anyway) but forcefeeding NAzr minutes despite terrible play will help us win more games.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
TheloniusMonk
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10/21/2004  3:36 PM
Posted by fishmike:

I totally disagree with Briggs. Players need to earn their time. Layden not only made mistakes, he refused to change them. If Nazr wants to start or get major minutes at center he has to earn them, plain and simple. When he can play 5 straight minutes without picking up a foul he will get more time. Its that simple. Force feeding a player minutes because of what you gave up to get him is sheer lunacy. It hurts the team and doesnt ensure you have the best people on the court.

Should we sit Ariza because we gave up so much for TT and Penny? And we want them to earn their huge paychecks so we HAVE to give them minutes? Or should Ariza get minutes because his play has earned him those minutes?

Nazr isnt 22 like Sweetney.

Who's to say starting Kurt isnt temporary? If Nazr starts to play better his minutes will increase. Its not like Nazr is the future of the org and this is just hindering his development. This guy has some untapped potential but why cant he earn his burn like everyone else? I'm sure if KT isnt performing well enough his minutes will go down.

I dont understand how on one hand you can say we arent winning w/ KT at center (a temporary more anyway) but forcefeeding NAzr minutes despite terrible play will help us win more games.

Right on Fish!!
'You can catch me in Hollis at the hero shop!' -Tony Yayo
Bonn1997
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10/21/2004  3:59 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:

no this is a terrible development. were not winning with guys this small. yes we will win, but this is radically changing the plan. this thing that were are giving up with nazr so quickly is terrible. we went out and traded doleac and a pick--the guy had some nice moments at C last year--theyre giving up on this to quick.
No one's giving up on Nazy; we're just giving him a role comparable to his skill level (about 20 mpg). It's a bigger role than Doleac had with the team because he's a better player than Doleac.
gunsnewing
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10/21/2004  4:16 PM
it amazes me that soe many people here actually expect anthing out of Nazr. He CAN'T do anything but rebound. With his rebounding being offset by his atrocious defensive skills. If he at the very least was a big body we can throw in there to stop the likes of Shaq, Yao, Z then he'd be very valuable but the truth of the matter is you rather put, Kurt or even sweetney or baker on them.
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right now I love Kurt starting at center...
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