Knicks had a higher winning percentage with TT than with Van Horn.
Bucks had a higher winning percentage with TT than with Van Horn.

Posted by fishmike:

yawn.... KVH is more productive over 82 games.. but thats about it. TT is a better fit for this team that relies on having ball handling from front court players. TT can start a break, or run a break. KVH cant take 2 dribbles without falling or kicking the ball.

KVH finishes at the hoop on the fastbreak as well as anyone. I fail to see how TT is a better fit for this team other than the alleged poor relationship between Marbury and KVH. KVH does everything except shoot clutch shots a little better than TT. Of course, it's a moot point now, but it still doesn't make the deal right by any stretch of the imagination.

Posted by TheloniusMonk:

ARE U SERIOUS MAN?????? The trade was Tim Thomas and Nazr for Doleac and VanHorn....upon which the Hawks would release Doleac so that he could resign with the Knicks. He was claimed off of waivers by Denver. Get YOUR history straight. I left out Dleac purposely because he was still suppose to be a part of our plans at the time of the trade my man.

Secondly, 7 to 10 game difference? I won't even comment on that. Go back and do some homework. Look at the two player's history with the teams they both played for.

And when you come across that zero point-zero rebound game he had in game 7 of the playoffs in 02-03, tell me what you think about it. Then peak over at what Tim was doing with the minutes he was getting with his team. Do your homework. Check the playoffs....when it counts.

Congratulations the spelling of Isiah's name was the ONLY thing you got straight.

Number 1: Doleac is better than Nazr. There is absolutely no room for argument there

Number 2: Keith Van Horn is better the Nazr Mohammed. If you want proof go look up their respective career averages.

Number 3: Tim Thomas was on the Bucks and was traded here for Keith Van Horn. Nazr Mohammed was on the Hawks and was traded here for Doleac. LOOK AT THE TWO PREVIOUS SENTENCES. THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT TRADES. I mean it doesnt take brain surgery guy, just because the trades were made close together DOESNT MAKE THEM THE SAME TRADE.


So whether you think it was two trades or one it is IMMATERIAL! Two trades or one still makes it a HORRIBLE MOVE when both the players we get in return STINK.

[Edited by - subzero0 on 10/20/2004 14:22:04]

[Edited by - subzero0 on 10/20/2004 14:24:23]

Posted by subzero0:

Posted by TheloniusMonk:

ARE U SERIOUS MAN?????? The trade was Tim Thomas and Nazr for Doleac and VanHorn....upon which the Hawks would release Doleac so that he could resign with the Knicks. He was claimed off of waivers by Denver. Get YOUR history straight. I left out Dleac purposely because he was still suppose to be a part of our plans at the time of the trade my man.

Secondly, 7 to 10 game difference? I won't even comment on that. Go back and do some homework. Look at the two player's history with the teams they both played for.

And when you come across that zero point-zero rebound game he had in game 7 of the playoffs in 02-03, tell me what you think about it. Then peak over at what Tim was doing with the minutes he was getting with his team. Do your homework. Check the playoffs....when it counts.

Congratulations the spelling of Isiah's name was the ONLY thing you got straight.

Number 1: Doleac is better than Nazr. There is absolutely no room for argument there

Number 2: Keith Van Horn is better the Nazr Mohammed. If you want proof go look up their respective career averages.

Number 3: Tim Thomas was on the Bucks and was traded here for Keith Van Horn. Nazr Mohammed was on the Hawks and was traded here for Doleac. LOOK AT THE TWO PREVIOUS SENTENCES. THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT TRADES. I mean it doesnt take brain surgery guy, just because the trades were made close together DOESNT MAKE THEM THE SAME TRADE.


So whether you think it was two trades or one it is IMMATERIAL! Two trades or one still makes it a HORRIBLE MOVE when both the players we get in return STINK.

[Edited by - subzero0 on 10/20/2004 14:22:04]

[Edited by - subzero0 on 10/20/2004 14:24:23]

Ok, so let's talk about VanHorn and Tim Thomas' respective career stats.

Check this pattern. Tim Thomas' career average is 11.9 while his playoffs avg. is 12.8. Note that he spent a good time in his career coming off the bench behind Glenn Robinson and Ray Allen during their allstars years.

Notice how his average slightly goes up during the postseason.

Let's take a look at a few other players and their career vs. postseason stats.

Allan Houston season career avg. 17.7, postseason 19.3. Sprewell (seas.) 18.8, (ps) 19.7. Kevin Garnett (seas.) 20.0, (p.s.) 22.3. Kobe Bryant (seas.) 21.8, (p.s.) 22.6.

Notice a pattern here?

Ok now.....

Keith VanHorn....career season average 17.5.....post season average 11.5!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Notice Keith averages a whooping 6 points LESS in the postseason.

And Keith has pretty much started throughout his career.

When it counts....postseason Tim 12.8 vs VanHorn 11.5

I'd rather a player or players who won't potentially choke come playoff time.

Again like I said, go back and check that deciding game 7 in 02'03 when Philly's season was on the line.

Let's put all of this to rest now.

I'm not really a Tim Thomas fan like that. But if a person says that he STINKS then so does VanHorn.

Analogy: If Keith VanHorn were a basketball team, he'd be that team that constantly blows 25 point leads night in and night out. He'd be that team that outplays the other team in the first half of every game, showing flashes of a good team, then get's shut out every 3rd and 4th quarter of the year. Then doesn't make the playoffs at all.

Tim Thomas, on the other hand, is like that team that has all the talent that it takes to be great but never plays up to their capabilities. Gets out hustled by other teams constantly. Goes to the playoffs and gets knocks out in the second round every year.

So you see, if Tim is crap then so is VanHorn. It would just be up to the veiwer as to who's better.

Posted by TheloniusMonk:

Posted by subzero0:

Posted by TheloniusMonk:

ARE U SERIOUS MAN?????? The trade was Tim Thomas and Nazr for Doleac and VanHorn....upon which the Hawks would release Doleac so that he could resign with the Knicks. He was claimed off of waivers by Denver. Get YOUR history straight. I left out Dleac purposely because he was still suppose to be a part of our plans at the time of the trade my man.

Secondly, 7 to 10 game difference? I won't even comment on that. Go back and do some homework. Look at the two player's history with the teams they both played for.

And when you come across that zero point-zero rebound game he had in game 7 of the playoffs in 02-03, tell me what you think about it. Then peak over at what Tim was doing with the minutes he was getting with his team. Do your homework. Check the playoffs....when it counts.

Congratulations the spelling of Isiah's name was the ONLY thing you got straight.

Number 1: Doleac is better than Nazr. There is absolutely no room for argument there

Number 2: Keith Van Horn is better the Nazr Mohammed. If you want proof go look up their respective career averages.

Number 3: Tim Thomas was on the Bucks and was traded here for Keith Van Horn. Nazr Mohammed was on the Hawks and was traded here for Doleac. LOOK AT THE TWO PREVIOUS SENTENCES. THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT TRADES. I mean it doesnt take brain surgery guy, just because the trades were made close together DOESNT MAKE THEM THE SAME TRADE.


So whether you think it was two trades or one it is IMMATERIAL! Two trades or one still makes it a HORRIBLE MOVE when both the players we get in return STINK.

[Edited by - subzero0 on 10/20/2004 14:22:04]

[Edited by - subzero0 on 10/20/2004 14:24:23]

Furthermore, Pay attention. Any idiot who saw the press conference after VanHorn was traded would have heard Isiah say "If this was just Tim Thomas I wouldn't have done it. It was about the combination of Thomas and Nazr with Doleac still on the radar. I should have to explain why the two trades were announced together. One depended on the other,,,,understand? That's the connection.

"One depended on the other" is a fairy tale Thomas tells people who dont know basketball to ignore the fact that Nazr is worse than Doleac. Its pretty easy to hoodwink fans and tell them look at Tim Thomas' athleticism and ignore the fact that he doest hand out assists, wouldnt rebound if it kills him, and shoot bad perimeter shots enabling other teams to run on us. Amazing how you say your willing to look at the numbers but only use the playoffs as the benchmark with which to measure these two players. I do say these two players because its not even a question Doleac was the best fit here because of his ability to run the pick and rol1/pop. Why concentrate on a Philly series where Van Horn acquiesed his scoring because Iverson wouldnt let go of the damn ball. Why concentrate on a New Jersey series when Van Horn was still VERY new in the NBA and Cassel shot first and asked questions later, only to find out the question just how many perimeter shots can be jacked up in the span of 40 minutes. Those are your playoff games, you cant just look at numbers when it comes to the playoffs because special situations disguise what really going on. Lets take the Bucks last run in the playoffs for example. Tim Thomas only averaged more because he jacked up so many shots that the chances of him actally hitting some actually became pretty good. You see, just looking at playoff numbers are misleading. For a better overall view you have to look at how the player did over the entire season and you have to agree that KVH is just better than TT in just about EVERY phase of the game.

While your there crunching number's check Thomas' career field goal percentages compare them to Van Horns and then come back and tell me how many long balls he jacked up that led to open court possibilities for his opposing team. What really kills me is that he wouldnt even get to the paint to REBOUND THE BALL.
Knowing basketball is more than just looking up numbers and posting them like a IT crazed fair weather, its knowing the differences in each players game and seeing exactly how they effect the team they play for and the team they are against. People who really know basketball could just tell there are key deficiencies in Tim Thomas' game. When you concentrate on him in a game something just pops out at you that he's doing things wrong.
TT's biggest advantage is his athleticism. What kills me though is that IT couldnt look past that to disern how Timmy's myriad of bad points negatively affect a team.

[Edited by - subzero0 on 10/21/2004 00:06:00]

Posted by subzero0:

Posted by TheloniusMonk:

Posted by subzero0:

Posted by TheloniusMonk:

ARE U SERIOUS MAN?????? The trade was Tim Thomas and Nazr for Doleac and VanHorn....upon which the Hawks would release Doleac so that he could resign with the Knicks. He was claimed off of waivers by Denver. Get YOUR history straight. I left out Dleac purposely because he was still suppose to be a part of our plans at the time of the trade my man.

Secondly, 7 to 10 game difference? I won't even comment on that. Go back and do some homework. Look at the two player's history with the teams they both played for.

And when you come across that zero point-zero rebound game he had in game 7 of the playoffs in 02-03, tell me what you think about it. Then peak over at what Tim was doing with the minutes he was getting with his team. Do your homework. Check the playoffs....when it counts.

Congratulations the spelling of Isiah's name was the ONLY thing you got straight.

Number 1: Doleac is better than Nazr. There is absolutely no room for argument there

Number 2: Keith Van Horn is better the Nazr Mohammed. If you want proof go look up their respective career averages.

Number 3: Tim Thomas was on the Bucks and was traded here for Keith Van Horn. Nazr Mohammed was on the Hawks and was traded here for Doleac. LOOK AT THE TWO PREVIOUS SENTENCES. THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT TRADES. I mean it doesnt take brain surgery guy, just because the trades were made close together DOESNT MAKE THEM THE SAME TRADE.


So whether you think it was two trades or one it is IMMATERIAL! Two trades or one still makes it a HORRIBLE MOVE when both the players we get in return STINK.

[Edited by - subzero0 on 10/20/2004 14:22:04]

[Edited by - subzero0 on 10/20/2004 14:24:23]

Furthermore, Pay attention. Any idiot who saw the press conference after VanHorn was traded would have heard Isiah say "If this was just Tim Thomas I wouldn't have done it. It was about the combination of Thomas and Nazr with Doleac still on the radar. I should have to explain why the two trades were announced together. One depended on the other,,,,understand? That's the connection.

"One depended on the other" is a fairy tale Thomas tells people who dont know basketball to ignore the fact that Nazr is worse than Doleac. Its pretty easy to hoodwink fans and tell them look at Tim Thomas' athleticism and ignore the fact that he doest hand out assists, wouldnt rebound if it kills him, and shoot bad perimeter shots enabling other teams to run on us. Amazing how you say your willing to look at the numbers but only use the playoffs as the benchmark with which to measure these two players. I do say these two players because its not even a question Doleac was the best fit here because of his ability to run the pick and rol1/pop. Why concentrate on a Philly series where Van Horn acquiesed his scoring because Iverson wouldnt let go of the damn ball. Why concentrate on a New Jersey series when Van Horn was still VERY new in the NBA and Cassel shot first and asked questions later, only to find out the question just how many perimeter shots can be jacked up in the span of 40 minutes. Those are your playoff games, you cant just look at numbers when it comes to the playoffs because special situations disguise what really going on. Lets take the Bucks last run in the playoffs for example. Tim Thomas only averaged more because he jacked up so many shots that the chances of him actally hitting some actually became pretty good. You see, just looking at playoff numbers are misleading. For a better overall view you have to look at how the player did over the entire season and you have to agree that KVH is just better than TT in just about EVERY phase of the game.

While your there crunching number's check Thomas' career field goal percentages compare them to Van Horns and then come back and tell me how many long balls he jacked up that led to open court possibilities for his opposing team. What really kills me is that he wouldnt even get to the paint to REBOUND THE BALL.
Knowing basketball is more than just looking up numbers and posting them like a IT crazed fair weather, its knowing the differences in each players game and seeing exactly how they effect the team they play for and the team they are against. People who really know basketball could just tell there are key deficiencies in Tim Thomas' game. When you concentrate on him in a game something just pops out at you that he's doing things wrong.
TT's biggest advantage is his athleticism. What kills me though is that IT couldnt look past that to disern how Timmy's myriad of bad points negatively affect a team.

[Edited by - subzero0 on 10/21/2004 00:06:00]

You're missing the point all together I see. This is not about me believing that Tim Thomas is a great player. It's about me feeling that if one sucks then so does the other. You're bust trying to tear down Tim Thomas' play. I don't care. Like I said I'm no Tim Thomas fan. But what I DO know is if he's bad then so is Keith.

What's the whole reason a player plays in the NBA? To get a ring. What must they do to achieve this......play big in the playoffs.

17 for Kieth in the season....11 come playoffs time. Explain.