KnickDanger wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:Your hate for Phil is palpable but saying that he was prevented from trading #1's is just not true. He could have easily traded future #1's but did not -- which to me may be the best thing he gave the franchise because that was the philosophy that put the Knicks in the s#!thole to begin with. And cap space was created under his watch -- again going against all Knick trends in recent times. I am not saying he was without fault, of course not. But the degree of hatred that rushes to pummel him with no objectivity I find...well interesting.

Phil Jackson was present for four Knicks drafts, he didn't have first round picks in two of those drafts.

In 2014, he did not have a first round pick
In 2015, he could not trade the Porzingis pick UNTIL the night of that draft after the Knicks selected a player with the 4th overall because of the Stepien Rule. At this point, he could NOT trade the 2017 first round pick because of the Stepien Rule
In 2016, he did not have a first round pick
In 2017, he could not have traded the Frank N pick until the conclusion of the 2016 draft

Teams do not typically trade for picks five years into the future. It happens pretty rarely. It's because opposing GMs know they will likely be fired before those returns are realized. Teams do not typically trade their own picks five years into the future. The Paul George to the Clippers trade is a total anomaly to the marketplace.

Phil Jackson did not return phone calls. Other front offices, besides Chicago where he had ties, didn't want to even bother talking with him. The only reason the Knicks kept lines open in Dallas was because Mills and Donnie Nelson knew each other through USA Basketball. Mills was not a formally trained GM and did not have decision making power.

At several points, Jackson could not trade the Knicks first round picks. Because of how teams actually trade, he could not practically trade picks 5 years into the future.

Aside from that, Phil Jackson

- Gave Melo a No Trade Clause
- Traded for a huge injury risk in the middle of legal problems for rape, giving up a 2nd round pick, a recently drafted first round pick and his only true value FA signing in Robin Lopez
- Traded Tyson Chandler, whom he could have simply contract dumped if it got bad enough. Chandler still had enough value back then for that. Instead he took back Calderon, a bad contract who couldn't run his offense and couldn't play defense.
- Used this cap space you are talking about to sign Noah for 72 million dollars and Lance Thomas for 27 million
- Did not see the value of 2nd round picks and traded a staggering number of them considering the barren roster

Phil Jackson inherited a bad situation. Many things he walked into were not his fault

Phil Jackson then proceeded to take every inherited bad situation and made them all worse. That's all his fault.

Phil Jackson set our beloved Knicks franchise 5-7 years.

Here's objectivity for you - Phil Jackson would have caused the Knicks less damage if he did nothing. If he literally walked in and touched nothing. No trades, no signings, no drafting.

Do you know what the dumbest part of all this? Jackson could have hired a GM trained to do the job and left him alone. That's it. Just picked a guy on any list from any article talking about front office rising stars. He could have walked into the Knicks headquarters, walked into his office, picked up the phone once, hired a guy groomed to be a GM and told him to run it as he saw fit, then closed the door and never had to walk out of it. That's it. That's all Jackson had to do to actually help this team.

I make two main points -- future draft picks and cap space (notwithstanding his two #1's KP and Frank were pretty fair choices). Phil could have traded future draft picks including the 2018 and 2019 picks -- just a year or two in the future. Former Knick GMs did just that sort of thing. In 2011 the Knicks gave the Nuggets their 2014 #1. !n 2013 Bargnani cost a 2016 #1. And so on. You saying teams don't trade picks 5 years in the future has no relevance here. I won't argue with the other points you pile on which have nothing to do with my main point which is why not give credit where it is due? But that is not going to happen here or with the majority "Frank"ly -- the verdict is given, the narrative is set. I accept and respect your strong dislike of Phil Jackson and his regime for the Knicks but the truth is the truth -- he did not trade #1's and left us cap space among a couple of other things.

I kinda read that as "he didn't shoot us in the foot with all of the bullets, just most of them"

KnickDanger wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:Your hate for Phil is palpable but saying that he was prevented from trading #1's is just not true. He could have easily traded future #1's but did not -- which to me may be the best thing he gave the franchise because that was the philosophy that put the Knicks in the s#!thole to begin with. And cap space was created under his watch -- again going against all Knick trends in recent times. I am not saying he was without fault, of course not. But the degree of hatred that rushes to pummel him with no objectivity I find...well interesting.

Phil Jackson was present for four Knicks drafts, he didn't have first round picks in two of those drafts.

In 2014, he did not have a first round pick
In 2015, he could not trade the Porzingis pick UNTIL the night of that draft after the Knicks selected a player with the 4th overall because of the Stepien Rule. At this point, he could NOT trade the 2017 first round pick because of the Stepien Rule
In 2016, he did not have a first round pick
In 2017, he could not have traded the Frank N pick until the conclusion of the 2016 draft

Teams do not typically trade for picks five years into the future. It happens pretty rarely. It's because opposing GMs know they will likely be fired before those returns are realized. Teams do not typically trade their own picks five years into the future. The Paul George to the Clippers trade is a total anomaly to the marketplace.

Phil Jackson did not return phone calls. Other front offices, besides Chicago where he had ties, didn't want to even bother talking with him. The only reason the Knicks kept lines open in Dallas was because Mills and Donnie Nelson knew each other through USA Basketball. Mills was not a formally trained GM and did not have decision making power.

At several points, Jackson could not trade the Knicks first round picks. Because of how teams actually trade, he could not practically trade picks 5 years into the future.

Aside from that, Phil Jackson

- Gave Melo a No Trade Clause
- Traded for a huge injury risk in the middle of legal problems for rape, giving up a 2nd round pick, a recently drafted first round pick and his only true value FA signing in Robin Lopez
- Traded Tyson Chandler, whom he could have simply contract dumped if it got bad enough. Chandler still had enough value back then for that. Instead he took back Calderon, a bad contract who couldn't run his offense and couldn't play defense.
- Used this cap space you are talking about to sign Noah for 72 million dollars and Lance Thomas for 27 million
- Did not see the value of 2nd round picks and traded a staggering number of them considering the barren roster

Phil Jackson inherited a bad situation. Many things he walked into were not his fault

Phil Jackson then proceeded to take every inherited bad situation and made them all worse. That's all his fault.

Phil Jackson set our beloved Knicks franchise 5-7 years.

Here's objectivity for you - Phil Jackson would have caused the Knicks less damage if he did nothing. If he literally walked in and touched nothing. No trades, no signings, no drafting.

Do you know what the dumbest part of all this? Jackson could have hired a GM trained to do the job and left him alone. That's it. Just picked a guy on any list from any article talking about front office rising stars. He could have walked into the Knicks headquarters, walked into his office, picked up the phone once, hired a guy groomed to be a GM and told him to run it as he saw fit, then closed the door and never had to walk out of it. That's it. That's all Jackson had to do to actually help this team.

I make two main points -- future draft picks and cap space (notwithstanding his two #1's KP and Frank were pretty fair choices). Phil could have traded future draft picks including the 2018 and 2019 picks -- just a year or two in the future. Former Knick GMs did just that sort of thing. In 2011 the Knicks gave the Nuggets their 2014 #1. !n 2013 Bargnani cost a 2016 #1. And so on. You saying teams don't trade picks 5 years in the future has no relevance here. I won't argue with the other points you pile on which have nothing to do with my main point which is why not give credit where it is due? But that is not going to happen here or with the majority "Frank"ly -- the verdict is given, the narrative is set. I accept and respect your strong dislike of Phil Jackson and his regime for the Knicks but the truth is the truth -- he did not trade #1's and left us cap space among a couple of other things.

Yes. And missing in TT's narrative is the fact that he inherited major trade stumbling blocks start to finish.

Felton with the domestic gun charge.

Shumpert being sociopathically convinced that he was a rapper and that the Knicks (and the fan base) were racially out to get him.

Melo tutoring KP and his brother to resist PJ plan to improve the Knicks through culture and structured play.

Chandler's increasingly belligerent on court issues.

JR tuning out the coaching, siding with Melo, and generally being unproductive and demoralizing.

KP and his brother role-playing being gangstahs under Melo's guidance was peak NBA prima donna and PJ should have biitch-slapped him to Boston.

Everything Melo was an inherited legacy mold problem. Dolan likely had his finger on the scale to resign Melo and NTC. Melo remains an intellectual child.

Phil was not the GM, answering the phone was not *his* job.

He didn't trade picks because he was growing a next generation under the Melo train wreck. Miller, Houston, Westchester, culture (to the degree he counterbalanced Melo), and pride all improved.

The job cost him his relationship with Jeannie.

Every Knicks trade ever "should have gotten more". It's a team trademark.

Uptown wrote:

martin wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:Your hate for Phil is palpable but saying that he was prevented from trading #1's is just not true. He could have easily traded future #1's but did not -- which to me may be the best thing he gave the franchise because that was the philosophy that put the Knicks in the s#!thole to begin with. And cap space was created under his watch -- again going against all Knick trends in recent times. I am not saying he was without fault, of course not. But the degree of hatred that rushes to pummel him with no objectivity I find...well interesting.

Phil Jackson was present for four Knicks drafts, he didn't have first round picks in two of those drafts.

In 2014, he did not have a first round pick
In 2015, he could not trade the Porzingis pick UNTIL the night of that draft after the Knicks selected a player with the 4th overall because of the Stepien Rule. At this point, he could NOT trade the 2017 first round pick because of the Stepien Rule
In 2016, he did not have a first round pick
In 2017, he could not have traded the Frank N pick until the conclusion of the 2016 draft

Teams do not typically trade for picks five years into the future. It happens pretty rarely. It's because opposing GMs know they will likely be fired before those returns are realized. Teams do not typically trade their own picks five years into the future. The Paul George to the Clippers trade is a total anomaly to the marketplace.

Phil Jackson did not return phone calls. Other front offices, besides Chicago where he had ties, didn't want to even bother talking with him. The only reason the Knicks kept lines open in Dallas was because Mills and Donnie Nelson knew each other through USA Basketball. Mills was not a formally trained GM and did not have decision making power.

At several points, Jackson could not trade the Knicks first round picks. Because of how teams actually trade, he could not practically trade picks 5 years into the future.

Aside from that, Phil Jackson

- Gave Melo a No Trade Clause
- Traded for a huge injury risk in the middle of legal problems for rape, giving up a 2nd round pick, a recently drafted first round pick and his only true value FA signing in Robin Lopez
- Traded Tyson Chandler, whom he could have simply contract dumped if it got bad enough. Chandler still had enough value back then for that. Instead he took back Calderon, a bad contract who couldn't run his offense and couldn't play defense.
- Used this cap space you are talking about to sign Noah for 72 million dollars and Lance Thomas for 27 million
- Did not see the value of 2nd round picks and traded a staggering number of them considering the barren roster

Phil Jackson inherited a bad situation. Many things he walked into were not his fault

Phil Jackson then proceeded to take every inherited bad situation and made them all worse. That's all his fault.

Phil Jackson set our beloved Knicks franchise 5-7 years.

Here's objectivity for you - Phil Jackson would have caused the Knicks less damage if he did nothing. If he literally walked in and touched nothing. No trades, no signings, no drafting.

Do you know what the dumbest part of all this? Jackson could have hired a GM trained to do the job and left him alone. That's it. Just picked a guy on any list from any article talking about front office rising stars. He could have walked into the Knicks headquarters, walked into his office, picked up the phone once, hired a guy groomed to be a GM and told him to run it as he saw fit, then closed the door and never had to walk out of it. That's it. That's all Jackson had to do to actually help this team.

I make two main points -- future draft picks and cap space (notwithstanding his two #1's KP and Frank were pretty fair choices). Phil could have traded future draft picks including the 2018 and 2019 picks -- just a year or two in the future. Former Knick GMs did just that sort of thing. In 2011 the Knicks gave the Nuggets their 2014 #1. !n 2013 Bargnani cost a 2016 #1. And so on. You saying teams don't trade picks 5 years in the future has no relevance here. I won't argue with the other points you pile on which have nothing to do with my main point which is why not give credit where it is due? But that is not going to happen here or with the majority "Frank"ly -- the verdict is given, the narrative is set. I accept and respect your strong dislike of Phil Jackson and his regime for the Knicks but the truth is the truth -- he did not trade #1's and left us cap space among a couple of other things.

I kinda read that as "he didn't shoot us in the foot with all of the bullets, just most of them"

Pretty Much! Phil was coaxed out of retirement by $$$ and performed his job like he was semi-retired. He was half-way committed, did a half-ass job, was in over-his head and refused to hire a an actual GM to help him perform a job he had zero experience with. Not sure why people are still defending him. Glad he's gone...

Again, few if any object to his dismissal. This is hindsight irony of KP and how it all played out. He was vilified for wanting to trade him after the exit meeting. Because he was “blasting” knicks looked bad. THat he got a 4 month rest then “Woke got Broke” we can revisit his fragility and that his peak value was when Phil wanted him traded. Thats it.
Can’t change history but we can talk about it.

jrodmc wrote:I hope your just joking without smilies.

Yeah, that's it, I forgot that Melo made PJ forget to show up at school the day they were teaching NBA Executive 101.
Yes, and Melo, the intellectual child, was just kicking ass and hitting clutch threes in the playoffs. Which is his job.

Based on your list above, what the eff exactly was PJ's job again?

1) Cash checks
2) Take naps
3) Annoy everyone

He was successful

jrodmc wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:Your hate for Phil is palpable but saying that he was prevented from trading #1's is just not true. He could have easily traded future #1's but did not -- which to me may be the best thing he gave the franchise because that was the philosophy that put the Knicks in the s#!thole to begin with. And cap space was created under his watch -- again going against all Knick trends in recent times. I am not saying he was without fault, of course not. But the degree of hatred that rushes to pummel him with no objectivity I find...well interesting.

Phil Jackson was present for four Knicks drafts, he didn't have first round picks in two of those drafts.

In 2014, he did not have a first round pick
In 2015, he could not trade the Porzingis pick UNTIL the night of that draft after the Knicks selected a player with the 4th overall because of the Stepien Rule. At this point, he could NOT trade the 2017 first round pick because of the Stepien Rule
In 2016, he did not have a first round pick
In 2017, he could not have traded the Frank N pick until the conclusion of the 2016 draft

Teams do not typically trade for picks five years into the future. It happens pretty rarely. It's because opposing GMs know they will likely be fired before those returns are realized. Teams do not typically trade their own picks five years into the future. The Paul George to the Clippers trade is a total anomaly to the marketplace.

Phil Jackson did not return phone calls. Other front offices, besides Chicago where he had ties, didn't want to even bother talking with him. The only reason the Knicks kept lines open in Dallas was because Mills and Donnie Nelson knew each other through USA Basketball. Mills was not a formally trained GM and did not have decision making power.

At several points, Jackson could not trade the Knicks first round picks. Because of how teams actually trade, he could not practically trade picks 5 years into the future.

Aside from that, Phil Jackson

- Gave Melo a No Trade Clause
- Traded for a huge injury risk in the middle of legal problems for rape, giving up a 2nd round pick, a recently drafted first round pick and his only true value FA signing in Robin Lopez
- Traded Tyson Chandler, whom he could have simply contract dumped if it got bad enough. Chandler still had enough value back then for that. Instead he took back Calderon, a bad contract who couldn't run his offense and couldn't play defense.
- Used this cap space you are talking about to sign Noah for 72 million dollars and Lance Thomas for 27 million
- Did not see the value of 2nd round picks and traded a staggering number of them considering the barren roster

Phil Jackson inherited a bad situation. Many things he walked into were not his fault

Phil Jackson then proceeded to take every inherited bad situation and made them all worse. That's all his fault.

Phil Jackson set our beloved Knicks franchise 5-7 years.

Here's objectivity for you - Phil Jackson would have caused the Knicks less damage if he did nothing. If he literally walked in and touched nothing. No trades, no signings, no drafting.

Do you know what the dumbest part of all this? Jackson could have hired a GM trained to do the job and left him alone. That's it. Just picked a guy on any list from any article talking about front office rising stars. He could have walked into the Knicks headquarters, walked into his office, picked up the phone once, hired a guy groomed to be a GM and told him to run it as he saw fit, then closed the door and never had to walk out of it. That's it. That's all Jackson had to do to actually help this team.

I make two main points -- future draft picks and cap space (notwithstanding his two #1's KP and Frank were pretty fair choices). Phil could have traded future draft picks including the 2018 and 2019 picks -- just a year or two in the future. Former Knick GMs did just that sort of thing. In 2011 the Knicks gave the Nuggets their 2014 #1. !n 2013 Bargnani cost a 2016 #1. And so on. You saying teams don't trade picks 5 years in the future has no relevance here. I won't argue with the other points you pile on which have nothing to do with my main point which is why not give credit where it is due? But that is not going to happen here or with the majority "Frank"ly -- the verdict is given, the narrative is set. I accept and respect your strong dislike of Phil Jackson and his regime for the Knicks but the truth is the truth -- he did not trade #1's and left us cap space among a couple of other things.

Yes. And missing in TT's narrative is the fact that he inherited major trade stumbling blocks start to finish.

Felton with the domestic gun charge.

Shumpert being sociopathically convinced that he was a rapper and that the Knicks (and the fan base) were racially out to get him.

Melo tutoring KP and his brother to resist PJ plan to improve the Knicks through culture and structured play.

Chandler's increasingly belligerent on court issues.

JR tuning out the coaching, siding with Melo, and generally being unproductive and demoralizing.

KP and his brother role-playing being gangstahs under Melo's guidance was peak NBA prima donna and PJ should have biitch-slapped him to Boston.

Everything Melo was an inherited legacy mold problem. Dolan likely had his finger on the scale to resign Melo and NTC. Melo remains an intellectual child.

Phil was not the GM, answering the phone was not *his* job.

He didn't trade picks because he was growing a next generation under the Melo train wreck. Miller, Houston, Westchester, culture (to the degree he counterbalanced Melo), and pride all improved.

The job cost him his relationship with Jeannie.

Every Knicks trade ever "should have gotten more". It's a team trademark.

I hope your just joking without smilies.

Yeah, that's it, I forgot that Melo made PJ forget to show up at school the day they were teaching NBA Executive 101.
Yes, and Melo, the intellectual child, was just kicking ass and hitting clutch threes in the playoffs. Which is his job.

Based on your list above, what the eff exactly was PJ's job again?

PJ's 'job' was to turn around the Knicks into a perennial championship contender in 5 years. He was partially successful in that the Knicks, with a couple of significant detours, remain on that trajectory.

No doubt, PJ was the NBA equivalent of Donald Trump. He didn't play the executive game with business as usual. So he "annoyed" everybody by tightening the ship, fewer leaks, stronger organization, single point of decision-making, Dolan was able to step away to the degree a high-profile owner ever can in NY. Like Dolan, PJ already had FU money and rings so it was never about either with PJ. He was real.

He wanted to compete immediately with Melo as the centerpiece but the centerpiece could not hold.

Crucify him as you please. We are better for his tenure.

jrodmc wrote:

fwk00 wrote:PJ's 'job' was to turn around the Knicks into a perennial championship contender in 5 years. He was partially successful in that the Knicks, with a couple of significant detours, remain on that trajectory.

No doubt, PJ was the NBA equivalent of Donald Trump. He didn't play the executive game with business as usual. So he "annoyed" everybody by tightening the ship, fewer leaks, stronger organization, single point of decision-making, Dolan was able to step away to the degree a high-profile owner ever can in NY. Like Dolan, PJ already had FU money and rings so it was never about either with PJ. He was real.

He wanted to compete immediately with Melo as the centerpiece but the centerpiece could not hold.

Crucify him as you please. We are better for his tenure.

Yeah, you got one thing right on your Made The Knicks Great Again rant.
It definitely wasn't about rings here with Prez PJ.
Three years into that 5 year plan I could just feel the crush of the crowds at MSG trying to get into those NBA Finals tickets pre-sales lines.

Enjoy your delusions.

If we never allow a long-term plan to reach fruition then we will never even smell success. PJ was radical in his style of management and fearless, and took responsibility.

Had he been able to dump Melo and KP when he had wanted this Knicks team would look more like the Heat than the wannabees (after the Fizdale debacle).

What's hilarious is that you are on a forum where fans typically suggest starting "all over again" - trade Ntilikina (after the 3 year investment), draft an 18 year old PG, .... on and on AND

AND two years from now...

rinse and repeat with another FO.

Dolan should have stuck with him hell or high water and let him trade Melo for a bag of chips and KP for those Boston rookies. Yeah, we would be lining up.

knicks1248 wrote:Its funny how nobody had a problem giving brittle KP the max for 5 yrs , but are screaming about absorbing CP's 2 yr contract.

I was not on board with that at all, but i certainly wasn't on board with the BS we got in return. At least phil was like.. if your not giving us back a young potential all satr who can start right now, then kick rocks.

Don’t be shocked if one of the Mavericks picks ends up a lottery pick. Porzingis is constantly injured and Luka’s ankle problems aren’t going away

ramtour420 wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Nalod wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Nalod wrote:Would you buy a used car from “Steve Mills Motors”???

Just got off the phone with them- they told me to sell everything of value that I have for pennies on the dollar to make some space- because they guarantee they're going to get me not one, but TWO of the finest cars ever made in a few months time! They haven't actually got them in stock yet, but they assure me, if I clear the space, they'll get me those two cars in three months time. Can't wait!

They did tho. They got you one Chevy Equinox, to use for a future trade in voucher, a Chevy Colorado, that probably doesn't make sense for your lifestyle, a Chevy Spark that's been passed around a couple of times, an older Ford F 1-50 that still runs, but is on its last legs, an inflator that used to be reliable, but suddenly decide to shut off when it arrived, and a Ford Fusion, that needed a some work, but should be up and running by the middle of the year. Unfortunately the GM, who used to be real tight with the owner, had no clue what he was doing and was eventually demoted to lot manager at a dealership in Hoboken.

We leased a Bmw 8 series. After three years the warranty wore off. They are very fragile cars. Nice though! We had a 48month lease Could buy it for 158mil. Instead we were able to sell it but because it was broken we did not get full price. Instead we leased an Accord and its dependable, but also got a trade on used M3 convertible. This is Dennis. Great car when it works! But was rarely drive it. Always in the shop! We banked the rest of the money. But BMW did give us some vouchers for two cars in the future.

I honestly can't think of any period of time DSJ was "great when it works."

His numbers the very first season here, right after the trade. We saw some definite flashes and it looked like he might be able to sustain it. Then the electrical wiring gave

We were in full on tank mode that season. There was absolutely no pressure. Last season there were expectations to at least see improvement. DSJ could not do anything right and he killed us in games

blkexec wrote:I agree.....that Celtics trade was better. But it was early and knicks didn't want to trade KP to an east coast team. But that Celtics trade wouldve been better. Hindsight is always 20-20

I wanted to trade Porzingis in 2017 while ESPN and the entire sports media was roasting Phil for even talking to teams about getting a package for KP

Dolan vetoed what would have been a spectacular trade for us

Philc1 wrote:

blkexec wrote:I agree.....that Celtics trade was better. But it was early and knicks didn't want to trade KP to an east coast team. But that Celtics trade wouldve been better. Hindsight is always 20-20

I wanted to trade Porzingis in 2017 while ESPN and the entire sports media was roasting Phil for even talking to teams about getting a package for KP

Dolan vetoed what would have been a spectacular trade for us

Yeah, this was where the Knicks could have turned a corner. I think Crowder was part of the deal as well. The NY-MSM did Phil no favors either. They always slam the FO and Knicks in general.

Peak self-fulfilling prophesy by the NY media was this draft when we lost a notch by picking 8. Hahn basically got on and said that the media wasn't the problem, it was the fact that the Knicks had become like the Chicago Cubs and Red Sox before they won anything. In other words, its *our* punching bag - what's the problem?

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