You constantly talk about offense. Which is correct, you win on good offense but you don't discuss the context behind it.

It's not just raw offense, it's EFFICIENT OFFENSE. When you have effective floor spacing and shooters who can punish you at long range and a free flowing style of passing, you are grinding down the opponents defense. Good ball movement puts a ton of pressure on the defense. Effective spacing makes it much harder for those defenders to recover, switch and help. A jumbo wing playing small ball pivot is likely to be a better free throw shooter compared to a traditional pivot. Also a better passer. Also give you fewer turnovers. Also give you better results in transition. They tend to have a lower injury rate as well.

Efficient offense helps you meter your effort/attrition so you can save something for defense.

The best argument you don't make about small ball pivots is that while you gain benefits offensively and you wear down your opponents, you are also committing to a style of play that is simply not sustainable for long stretches. Which is why most teams will use small ball in controlled spurts.

The future is Ban Adebayo. Any team who got a franchise big was likely a case where the draft lottery made said player the best player available given the time and place.

The play style you want and advocate for has been mostly phased out of the modern game.

That fewer people do something does not make it valuable. They stopped doing it for a reason.

BRIGGS wrote:Not many at all
Going through the teams is there only 2?

I don't think that means the point you're trying to make. It shows you don't need a 20pt C in the league today to have great success. We've gone from the scoring C, to a phase where it was a shot blocking, defensive rebounder, to the current trend which seems to be playing a PF or even a SF at the C position

TripleThreat wrote:

This is the kind of center that the Knicks need. Who gives a **** if Bam can score 20 every night ( he's not and he can't) Look at that mother****er all over the court. He's a one man zombie apocalypse.

This leads into the discussion of why Melo was so maddening to so many fans. Melo was OFFENSIVELY COMPLETE. That's rare. You'd have to go back to Magic and Oscar Robertson to find players who had a full arsenal. Which means Melo could have chosen to play his offense in the most efficient way possible. Not that ball stopping jab step X 13 times and missing a long two shot jack on ****ty shot selection happy horse****. Helping his team and metering his energy to actually do something productive on defense.

If Melo had worked relentlessly his entire career and had that mad dog killer instinct, he would have had an entire second career as a small ball center. He could have created TWO different eras of his play that would have been Hall Of Fame worthy. How many players can say that? The criticism of Melo is not hate, as some mouth breathers here will posit, it was a discussion of the waste of one of the games greatest talents for basically no good reason at all. It's an acknowledgement to Melo's natural talent to talk about him playing like a total *******.

It still boggles my mind that LeBron James wanted to get Erik Spolestra fired. Adebayo didn't do it alone, he was put in a position to be successful.

Can you imagine if Adebayo played in New York? How Knicks diehards would embrace this guy? That's the kind of player you want in the Garden.

Bam Adebayo clogs toilets with his piss.

Bam Adebayo went to a feminist rally once. He came back with his shirt ironed and a sandwich

Bam Adebayo can believe it's not butter

Bam Adebayo never dials the wrong number. You just picked up the wrong phone

Bam Adebayo can divide by zero

Bam Adebayo once questioned his life choices. They confessed everything.

I had meant to start a thread on the Heat based off of this video but you seem to hit it nicely. Their org just finds the right players and develops and puts them into such good positions.

And this is in an era with 4 or 5 out shooting. Miami is winning with Bulter and Bam.

On that note, why is Onyeka Okongwu not valued more in draft? In this first year he jumped from nowhere to top 10 player. Hasn't shown the passing but is relentless on D and can move feet. Could he be same type of player?

Mitch and someone like Okongwu may not seem like they fit because of spacing and one of them would need to be able to pass and both would need to show they can shoot a lot more than they do but could they fit long term?

martin wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

This is the kind of center that the Knicks need. Who gives a **** if Bam can score 20 every night ( he's not and he can't) Look at that mother****er all over the court. He's a one man zombie apocalypse.

This leads into the discussion of why Melo was so maddening to so many fans. Melo was OFFENSIVELY COMPLETE. That's rare. You'd have to go back to Magic and Oscar Robertson to find players who had a full arsenal. Which means Melo could have chosen to play his offense in the most efficient way possible. Not that ball stopping jab step X 13 times and missing a long two shot jack on ****ty shot selection happy horse****. Helping his team and metering his energy to actually do something productive on defense.

If Melo had worked relentlessly his entire career and had that mad dog killer instinct, he would have had an entire second career as a small ball center. He could have created TWO different eras of his play that would have been Hall Of Fame worthy. How many players can say that? The criticism of Melo is not hate, as some mouth breathers here will posit, it was a discussion of the waste of one of the games greatest talents for basically no good reason at all. It's an acknowledgement to Melo's natural talent to talk about him playing like a total *******.

It still boggles my mind that LeBron James wanted to get Erik Spolestra fired. Adebayo didn't do it alone, he was put in a position to be successful.

Can you imagine if Adebayo played in New York? How Knicks diehards would embrace this guy? That's the kind of player you want in the Garden.

Bam Adebayo clogs toilets with his piss.

Bam Adebayo went to a feminist rally once. He came back with his shirt ironed and a sandwich

Bam Adebayo can believe it's not butter

Bam Adebayo never dials the wrong number. You just picked up the wrong phone

Bam Adebayo can divide by zero

Bam Adebayo once questioned his life choices. They confessed everything.

I had meant to start a thread on the Heat based off of this video but you seem to hit it nicely. Their org just finds the right players and develops and puts them into such good positions.

And this is in an era with 4 or 5 out shooting. Miami is winning with Bulter and Bam.

On that note, why is Onyeka Okongwu not valued more in draft? In this first year he jumped from nowhere to top 10 player. Hasn't shown the passing but is relentless on D and can move feet. Could he be same type of player?

Mitch and someone like Okongwu may not seem like they fit because of spacing and one of them would need to be able to pass and both would need to show they can shoot a lot more than they do but could they fit long term?

I think he is highly regarded, but Knick fans don't mention him much because they want Mitch to be our C, and you can't have Okongwu playing PF next to him. I think we need to think carefully about that (I've done a u-turn on this)- I think Mitch will ultimately be a 20min very effective back up, so I'd consider taking Okongwu as starting C and if we need to move one of them further down the line, so be it (obviously depending on what place we pick and the other players available). We'd get a lot of heat for it, but what's new!

BRIGGS wrote:I’m not getting scked into believing “ this is it” for style of play as it’s NEVER been that way in the Nba. It’s like Jeopardy — once Holzhauer started at the high end clues you thought that’s how the game would be played from now on— not so.
I’m looking for a style of play that’s in and out — where force is dies yes efficiently at the basket for 48 mi utes with 3 point shooting as it’s compliment instead of the other way around. If we are always following we are never leading.

Agreed. That’s why the team that wins the championship is the one that defends the 3 point shooters the best.... not the one that actually shoots it best.

https://www.thestepien.com/2020/03/30/killian-tillie-scouting-report/

Killian Tillie

Position: Forward
Height: 6-10
Weight: 220
School: Gonzaga

“If it weren't for the injuries” is a phrase commonly associated with Killian Tillie.

If it weren't for the injuries, Tillie would have been one of the best players in Gonzaga history. If it weren't for the injuries, Tillie would be a lock to be chosen in the first round of the 2020 NBA Draft.

But as much as Tillie would like to, he can't shake his injury-riddled past. In four years at Gonzaga, he dealt with knee surgery, a torn ligament in his foot, a stress fracture in his ankle, numerous sprained ankles, a broken finger and a hip pointer. The long list of injuries forced him to miss a total of 38 games during his college career.

Tillie would be a first-round pick if his injury history wasn't a concern and he was being evaluated solely on his basketball talent. He's 6-10 with exceptional three-point shooting ability. He can handle the ball, pass and generally has terrific instincts on the offensive end of the floor.

Tillie averaged 13.6 points and 5.0 rebounds and shot an even 40 percent from long range during his senior season. He was one of the best players on a Gonzaga team that had a 31-2 record. Tillie finished his college career as a 44 percent three-point shooter and enters the NBA Draft as a proven winner with a track record of solid production for one of the premier programs in the country.
Strengths

Tillie's combination of size and shooting makes him a very attractive commodity. He projects as a stretch forward who will be able to space the floor with his tremendous spot-up shooting ability.

At 22 years old, he's a polished offensive player with an excellent basketball IQ. Tillie was also very efficient in the pick-and-roll at Gonzaga, whether it was rolling to the basket or popping out to the perimeter for an open jumper. He will likely be utilized as a pick-and-pop forward in the NBA.

Tillie won't be confused for a slasher who gets to the basket, but he does have the ability to score in the paint. His solid footwork and soft touch make him an effective scorer on the low block. He'll do most of his scoring from the perimeter, but he's versatile enough to exploit size mismatches inside.

Tillie is also an above-average passer for a big man. Gonzaga often ran its offense through Tillie, who served as a facilitator from the top of the key or in the high post. He sees the floor extremely well, a trait that figures to translate well to the pro game.
Weaknesses

You have to start with the injuries. Given the extent to which Tillie struggled to stay healthy in college, it's fair to wonder whether his body can withstand the rigors of an 82-game NBA season. His knee, ankle and foot problems are especially concerning. Those are the type of injuries that tend to derail careers, especially for big men like Tillie.

His lack of elite foot speed and strength limits his defensive ability. Will stronger, more athletic forwards take advantage of him? His size and understanding of the game should make him a passable defender, but he'll never be great on that end of the floor.

BigDaddyG wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

martin wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

This is the kind of center that the Knicks need. Who gives a **** if Bam can score 20 every night ( he's not and he can't) Look at that mother****er all over the court. He's a one man zombie apocalypse.

This leads into the discussion of why Melo was so maddening to so many fans. Melo was OFFENSIVELY COMPLETE. That's rare. You'd have to go back to Magic and Oscar Robertson to find players who had a full arsenal. Which means Melo could have chosen to play his offense in the most efficient way possible. Not that ball stopping jab step X 13 times and missing a long two shot jack on ****ty shot selection happy horse****. Helping his team and metering his energy to actually do something productive on defense.

If Melo had worked relentlessly his entire career and had that mad dog killer instinct, he would have had an entire second career as a small ball center. He could have created TWO different eras of his play that would have been Hall Of Fame worthy. How many players can say that? The criticism of Melo is not hate, as some mouth breathers here will posit, it was a discussion of the waste of one of the games greatest talents for basically no good reason at all. It's an acknowledgement to Melo's natural talent to talk about him playing like a total *******.

It still boggles my mind that LeBron James wanted to get Erik Spolestra fired. Adebayo didn't do it alone, he was put in a position to be successful.

Can you imagine if Adebayo played in New York? How Knicks diehards would embrace this guy? That's the kind of player you want in the Garden.

Bam Adebayo clogs toilets with his piss.

Bam Adebayo went to a feminist rally once. He came back with his shirt ironed and a sandwich

Bam Adebayo can believe it's not butter

Bam Adebayo never dials the wrong number. You just picked up the wrong phone

Bam Adebayo can divide by zero

Bam Adebayo once questioned his life choices. They confessed everything.

I had meant to start a thread on the Heat based off of this video but you seem to hit it nicely. Their org just finds the right players and develops and puts them into such good positions.

And this is in an era with 4 or 5 out shooting. Miami is winning with Bulter and Bam.

On that note, why is Onyeka Okongwu not valued more in draft? In this first year he jumped from nowhere to top 10 player. Hasn't shown the passing but is relentless on D and can move feet. Could he be same type of player?

Mitch and someone like Okongwu may not seem like they fit because of spacing and one of them would need to be able to pass and both would need to show they can shoot a lot more than they do but could they fit long term?

I think he is highly regarded, but Knick fans don't mention him much because they want Mitch to be our C, and you can't have Okongwu playing PF next to him. I think we need to think carefully about that (I've done a u-turn on this)- I think Mitch will ultimately be a 20min very effective back up, so I'd consider taking Okongwu as starting C and if we need to move one of them further down the line, so be it (obviously depending on what lace we pick and the other players available). We'd get a lot of heat for it, but what's new!

I think Okongwu can eventually be able to play with Mitch over time, as long as you're not expecting 3 point range. He flashes a face up game and he has the potential to guard the perimeter. Would fans be willing to wait? Doubt it...

This shouldn’t be a debate. It would take a considerable amount of time for Okongwu to develop enough to play side by side with Mitch. No 3pt range with two starting bigs!!?? This doesn’t work in the modern NBA.

The only big we need even consider with our first rounder is Wiseman. Period. If go with a big then they have to have the potential to be far superior than Mitch. I don’t think Okongwu is that guy.

BRIGGS wrote:In Milwaukee/Orlando. Dominant big man controlled game. Got the win. A dominant athletic big man can help win playoff series.

https://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=401236254

https://orlandomagicdaily.com/2020/08/18/orlando-magic-grades-orlando-magic-122-milwaukee-bucks-110/

The Magic controlled the pace, attempting 41 3-pointers and shooting almost 50-percent from the field. They were engaged and active on defense, forcing 16 turnovers and recording six steals.

Most importantly, they made life difficult for Giannis Antetokounmpo.

Despite having 31 points and 17 rebounds, the Magic kept Antetokounmpo in check for most of the game, including huge stretches of the fourth quarter. Antetokounmpo picked up most of his points with hustle plays and scrappy rebounding. But he could not get going in transition, blunting much of the Bucks’ devastating effectiveness.

Milwaukee averaged 19 fast-break points per game against Orlando in four meetings this season. The Bucks managed only 10 for the game Tuesday.

Defending Giannis Antetokounmpo was a team effort, spearheaded by Gary Clark, standing in for Aaron Gordon who was out with a strained hamstring once again. It became clear early the Magic had intentions of packing it in on the fast break, helping off shooters, and “walling up” to make Antetokounmpo earn every point.

Filling in for Aaron Gordon, Gary Clark played outstanding defense on Giannis Antetokounmpo. If that is all that Clark did, that would be more than enough. But he decided to top things off with four 3-pointers too.

The game plan for Antetokounmpo seems to be some combination of “walling up” on drives, forcing him to the interior of the paint where you have help, and living with his outside shooting. Clark did these things about as well as you could hope for.

Many of this seemed to frustrate Antetokounmpo, as Clark would simply look to get in the way of drives and draw offensive fouls. Stopping the league MVP is an impossible task, but it is nice to see a plan executed that can slow him down.

Without stretches of Terrence Ross’ play, the Orlando Magic likely would have relinquished the lead to the Milwaukee Bucks in the second half. In fact, without Ross the Magic would have lost this game.

Finishing with 18 points, Ross did most of his damage when it mattered most, most notably a stretch in the fourth quarter where the Magic were playing sluggish.

The Milwaukee Bucks have not looked like the same team that tore up the regular season before its postponement back in March. They are now 3-6 in the bubble. As much as this game was about the Orlando Magic playing well, the Milwaukee Bucks did not perform like how we know they can.

They looked lethargic in stretches and even coach Mike Budenholzer looked confused at some points. There was little support around Giannis Antetokounmpo, as both Khris Middleton and Eric Bledsoe had mediocre performances. An even bigger concern is a lack of energy and consistency from the rest of the supporting cast. Brook Lopez, Pat Connaughton and company had a rough go at it.

The team stats reflect this: 43.3-percent shooting, 64.3-percent from the free-throw line, 16 turnovers and only 10 fast-break points.