Chandler wrote:back to the original post:

fishmike brings up some good points on Tom T

having said that,i think the concern with Mike Woodson and Tom T is the same: their best days might be behind them. We have seen this story many times before including from coaches with even better histories.

Now I can't guarantee his best days are behind him, but that would be my number 1 concern if i were calling the shots. As i mentioned in other posts, prior HC experience is far from a must for winning. Nurse, Kerr, Lue, Spolestra, Jackson (back in the day) and others have enjoyed great success on their first gig (sometimes their first year)

If I were boss, I want to know (1) does the candidate seem a step ahead of the competition and (2) hopefully, is he getting better, growing

The young coaches you posted in hindsight had a talented team. Jax got a team that drafted well and was patient. Imagine Kerr instead of Fish? I don’t see great success in that instance.

We could do a lot worse.

Chandler wrote:Kidd has his character flaws but he is intriguing.

His practical ceiling is an assistant coach who runs the defense once he learns to adjust to his personnel( His defensive schemes weren't effective over time, but at least it was aggressive. There's room here for gradual improvement ) Kidd just needed time as an assistant coach first, not jumping right into the head coaching slot.

As for power conflicts, that's pretty much standard in all of professional sports.

Two things

1) The domestic violence thing will follow him like a hungry dog chasing a guy with bacon in his pockets. It makes things exponentially difficult for him even though it was a long time ago.

2) The media has torn Captain Valtrex apart because he crossed the line with a major player in the mass media market. If the media dug deep on ANYONE in the NBA, they could tear them apart. Cal Ripken Jr was pretty notorious but he was a media darling because he played along. As a head coach, you have to play the game with agents, the media, owners, brands, other coaches, etc, etc.

fishmike wrote:

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:Thibs would be so much better and is so much better than Woodson is laughable. Same with Mike Miller. Folks dont want to chase Lebron because they like David Lee part 2. Thibs took a 500 Bulls team to 60 wins in year one. Minn had their only winning season since KG was there under Thibs. He was instrumental in Boston championship. All he does he work hard and win. Thibs would be a great hire. Reminds of Carlisle going to the Mavs. He was replaced by Larry Brown and Pistons immediately won a title and the knocks on Carlisle were similar to what folks like to regurgitate about Thibs

Thibs would be a great hire. Someone like Jay Wright would be interesting. Woodson is the definition of a retread and he's had more losing seasons than winning ones. Mike Miller is a stop gap.

Thibs checks most of the boxes. Winning record as a coach, won division titles, defensive minded coach, was the coach when Minny made their 1st playoff appearance after missing the previous 13 years and developed a 30th pick in the draft, Jimmy Butler, into an allstar player. His resume looks really good, but I do have some concerns hiring him for This Team.

The Knicks as a franchise are at ground zero which is a place that Thibs has never coached from before. Minny was young and building when he got there, but they were much further along than we are today. In his first year, they won 31 games. It wasn't until he traded for his former Bulls (Butler, Rose, Gibson) and other vets (Teague) that they won 47 games in his second year and made the playoffs. Keep in mind, the T Wolves turned into a **** show the next year under Thibs' watch. My biggest concern with Thibs coming here is that his presence may cause us to skip steps in this rebuild and start reaching for vets and players to help us compete right away and chase the same 8th seed his Timberwolves achieved. We need a coach that is in it for the long haul, will grow with the team and allow us to not skip steps. Thibs strikes me as a coach you hire to finish the deal, not to begin the process.

Rightly or wrongly, perception is reality to a lot of people. And the perception of Thibs that's out there is not a good one. I was watching NBA the Jump, and Paul Pierce who played for Thibs when he was an assistant with the Celts mentioned that Thibs personality and overbearing ways may clash with today's players. He didn't give his former coach a ringing endorsement. If the Knicks are still delusional enough to believe that can attract free agents, even though this has never been a coveted destination, then Thibs would not be the way to go based on his perception.

Lastly, in Boston and Chicago, Thibs was known as a defensive guru. But his defense failed him in Minny. His defense was stellar for more years than it wasn't, but his poor defensive display in Minny also goes on his resume. Did the league catch up to his defensive principles? The league changed and was able to exploit his ICE pick and roll coverage. With that said, Thibs has been coaching for a long time, I'm certain he can adjust to the new pace and space NBA. But to what level?

I think Thibs is a good coach, I'm just not sure he is the right coach for where we are in our process.

good post, I really appreciate this. For me it really boils down to the bold. The one thing I know you get with Thibs is a good coach. He may not be the best fit, he may be perfect and really benefited from prior mistakes and experience. I dont know but we know he's a good coach and as you aptly put checks the boxes. I can work with that. Honest question (not directed at uptown)... what boxes do Woodson and Mike Miller check off?

Can Thibs build a program? Its all guesswork. We know nothing about what this management plans.

His defense is outdated

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fansided.com/2016/12/05/minnesota-timberwolves-tom-thibodeau-defensive-scheme/amp/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/deadspin.com/tom-thibodeau-is-destruction-1821265024/amp

Chandler wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Still maddening we could have had Bud but went for Fiz instead! Is there anyone who wouldn't take Bud over any of our candidates this time round?!

New meaning to "This Bud's for you (Milwaukee)"

ha!

fishmike wrote:

wargames wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:Thibs would be so much better and is so much better than Woodson is laughable. Same with Mike Miller. Folks dont want to chase Lebron because they like David Lee part 2. Thibs took a 500 Bulls team to 60 wins in year one. Minn had their only winning season since KG was there under Thibs. He was instrumental in Boston championship. All he does he work hard and win. Thibs would be a great hire. Reminds of Carlisle going to the Mavs. He was replaced by Larry Brown and Pistons immediately won a title and the knocks on Carlisle were similar to what folks like to regurgitate about Thibs

Thibs would be a great hire. Someone like Jay Wright would be interesting. Woodson is the definition of a retread and he's had more losing seasons than winning ones. Mike Miller is a stop gap.

Thibs checks most of the boxes. Winning record as a coach, won division titles, defensive minded coach, was the coach when Minny made their 1st playoff appearance after missing the previous 13 years and developed a 30th pick in the draft, Jimmy Butler, into an allstar player. His resume looks really good, but I do have some concerns hiring him for This Team.

The Knicks as a franchise are at ground zero which is a place that Thibs has never coached from before. Minny was young and building when he got there, but they were much further along than we are today. In his first year, they won 31 games. It wasn't until he traded for his former Bulls (Butler, Rose, Gibson) and other vets (Teague) that they won 47 games in his second year and made the playoffs. Keep in mind, the T Wolves turned into a **** show the next year under Thibs' watch. My biggest concern with Thibs coming here is that his presence may cause us to skip steps in this rebuild and start reaching for vets and players to help us compete right away and chase the same 8th seed his Timberwolves achieved. We need a coach that is in it for the long haul, will grow with the team and allow us to not skip steps. Thibs strikes me as a coach you hire to finish the deal, not to begin the process.

Rightly or wrongly, perception is reality to a lot of people. And the perception of Thibs that's out there is not a good one. I was watching NBA the Jump, and Paul Pierce who played for Thibs when he was an assistant with the Celts mentioned that Thibs personality and overbearing ways may clash with today's players. He didn't give his former coach a ringing endorsement. If the Knicks are still delusional enough to believe that can attract free agents, even though this has never been a coveted destination, then Thibs would not be the way to go based on his perception.

Lastly, in Boston and Chicago, Thibs was known as a defensive guru. But his defense failed him in Minny. His defense was stellar for more years than it wasn't, but his poor defensive display in Minny also goes on his resume. Did the league catch up to his defensive principles? The league changed and was able to exploit his ICE pick and roll coverage. With that said, Thibs has been coaching for a long time, I'm certain he can adjust to the new pace and space NBA. But to what level?

I think Thibs is a good coach, I'm just not sure he is the right coach for where we are in our process.

good post, I really appreciate this. For me it really boils down to the bold. The one thing I know you get with Thibs is a good coach. He may not be the best fit, he may be perfect and really benefited from prior mistakes and experience. I dont know but we know he's a good coach and as you aptly put checks the boxes. I can work with that. Honest question (not directed at uptown)... what boxes do Woodson and Mike Miller check off?

Can Thibs build a program? Its all guesswork. We know nothing about what this management plans.

His defense is outdated

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fansided.com/2016/12/05/minnesota-timberwolves-tom-thibodeau-defensive-scheme/amp/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/deadspin.com/tom-thibodeau-is-destruction-1821265024/amp

so are your articles

Wow I bet you feel witty.... but nope those are called a record of past performance

fishmike wrote:

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:Thibs would be so much better and is so much better than Woodson is laughable. Same with Mike Miller. Folks dont want to chase Lebron because they like David Lee part 2. Thibs took a 500 Bulls team to 60 wins in year one. Minn had their only winning season since KG was there under Thibs. He was instrumental in Boston championship. All he does he work hard and win. Thibs would be a great hire. Reminds of Carlisle going to the Mavs. He was replaced by Larry Brown and Pistons immediately won a title and the knocks on Carlisle were similar to what folks like to regurgitate about Thibs

Thibs would be a great hire. Someone like Jay Wright would be interesting. Woodson is the definition of a retread and he's had more losing seasons than winning ones. Mike Miller is a stop gap.

Thibs checks most of the boxes. Winning record as a coach, won division titles, defensive minded coach, was the coach when Minny made their 1st playoff appearance after missing the previous 13 years and developed a 30th pick in the draft, Jimmy Butler, into an allstar player. His resume looks really good, but I do have some concerns hiring him for This Team.

The Knicks as a franchise are at ground zero which is a place that Thibs has never coached from before. Minny was young and building when he got there, but they were much further along than we are today. In his first year, they won 31 games. It wasn't until he traded for his former Bulls (Butler, Rose, Gibson) and other vets (Teague) that they won 47 games in his second year and made the playoffs. Keep in mind, the T Wolves turned into a **** show the next year under Thibs' watch. My biggest concern with Thibs coming here is that his presence may cause us to skip steps in this rebuild and start reaching for vets and players to help us compete right away and chase the same 8th seed his Timberwolves achieved. We need a coach that is in it for the long haul, will grow with the team and allow us to not skip steps. Thibs strikes me as a coach you hire to finish the deal, not to begin the process.

Rightly or wrongly, perception is reality to a lot of people. And the perception of Thibs that's out there is not a good one. I was watching NBA the Jump, and Paul Pierce who played for Thibs when he was an assistant with the Celts mentioned that Thibs personality and overbearing ways may clash with today's players. He didn't give his former coach a ringing endorsement. If the Knicks are still delusional enough to believe that can attract free agents, even though this has never been a coveted destination, then Thibs would not be the way to go based on his perception.

Lastly, in Boston and Chicago, Thibs was known as a defensive guru. But his defense failed him in Minny. His defense was stellar for more years than it wasn't, but his poor defensive display in Minny also goes on his resume. Did the league catch up to his defensive principles? The league changed and was able to exploit his ICE pick and roll coverage. With that said, Thibs has been coaching for a long time, I'm certain he can adjust to the new pace and space NBA. But to what level?

I think Thibs is a good coach, I'm just not sure he is the right coach for where we are in our process.

good post, I really appreciate this. For me it really boils down to the bold. The one thing I know you get with Thibs is a good coach. He may not be the best fit, he may be perfect and really benefited from prior mistakes and experience. I dont know but we know he's a good coach and as you aptly put checks the boxes. I can work with that. Honest question (not directed at uptown)... what boxes do Woodson and Mike Miller check off?

Can Thibs build a program? Its all guesswork. We know nothing about what this management plans.

Woodson and especially Miller do not check nearly as many boxes as Thibs which is why I don't consider them serious candidates to land the job. I love the potential of Will Hardy, Chris Fleming and Udoka, and the idea of perhaps finding the next young innovative coach like Spolestra or Brad Stevens that can grow with the team, but when you work for an impatient owner, now way can I see Rose's first hire being an assistant coach with zero head coaching experience.

That leaves Kidd, Atkinson and Thibs. They all have their flaws, but of the 3, IMO, Atkinson makes the most sense for our team and where we are in our rebuilding process. As an observer, I have no clue what managements plans are and they may see the Knicks as being closer to competing than I do. Because of the constant drama that surrounds this organization, based on Kidd's past antics, some may see Kidd as bit too risky. That leaves Thibs who already has a long relationship with Rose. Rose mentioned the need for the coach and the front office to be on the same page so who better for Rose to hire than someone he knows well. Also, let's be honest, Thibs is Rose's safest bet based on his record and past success.

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:Thibs would be so much better and is so much better than Woodson is laughable. Same with Mike Miller. Folks dont want to chase Lebron because they like David Lee part 2. Thibs took a 500 Bulls team to 60 wins in year one. Minn had their only winning season since KG was there under Thibs. He was instrumental in Boston championship. All he does he work hard and win. Thibs would be a great hire. Reminds of Carlisle going to the Mavs. He was replaced by Larry Brown and Pistons immediately won a title and the knocks on Carlisle were similar to what folks like to regurgitate about Thibs

Thibs would be a great hire. Someone like Jay Wright would be interesting. Woodson is the definition of a retread and he's had more losing seasons than winning ones. Mike Miller is a stop gap.

Thibs checks most of the boxes. Winning record as a coach, won division titles, defensive minded coach, was the coach when Minny made their 1st playoff appearance after missing the previous 13 years and developed a 30th pick in the draft, Jimmy Butler, into an allstar player. His resume looks really good, but I do have some concerns hiring him for This Team.

The Knicks as a franchise are at ground zero which is a place that Thibs has never coached from before. Minny was young and building when he got there, but they were much further along than we are today. In his first year, they won 31 games. It wasn't until he traded for his former Bulls (Butler, Rose, Gibson) and other vets (Teague) that they won 47 games in his second year and made the playoffs. Keep in mind, the T Wolves turned into a **** show the next year under Thibs' watch. My biggest concern with Thibs coming here is that his presence may cause us to skip steps in this rebuild and start reaching for vets and players to help us compete right away and chase the same 8th seed his Timberwolves achieved. We need a coach that is in it for the long haul, will grow with the team and allow us to not skip steps. Thibs strikes me as a coach you hire to finish the deal, not to begin the process.

Rightly or wrongly, perception is reality to a lot of people. And the perception of Thibs that's out there is not a good one. I was watching NBA the Jump, and Paul Pierce who played for Thibs when he was an assistant with the Celts mentioned that Thibs personality and overbearing ways may clash with today's players. He didn't give his former coach a ringing endorsement. If the Knicks are still delusional enough to believe that can attract free agents, even though this has never been a coveted destination, then Thibs would not be the way to go based on his perception.

Lastly, in Boston and Chicago, Thibs was known as a defensive guru. But his defense failed him in Minny. His defense was stellar for more years than it wasn't, but his poor defensive display in Minny also goes on his resume. Did the league catch up to his defensive principles? The league changed and was able to exploit his ICE pick and roll coverage. With that said, Thibs has been coaching for a long time, I'm certain he can adjust to the new pace and space NBA. But to what level?

I think Thibs is a good coach, I'm just not sure he is the right coach for where we are in our process.

good post, I really appreciate this. For me it really boils down to the bold. The one thing I know you get with Thibs is a good coach. He may not be the best fit, he may be perfect and really benefited from prior mistakes and experience. I dont know but we know he's a good coach and as you aptly put checks the boxes. I can work with that. Honest question (not directed at uptown)... what boxes do Woodson and Mike Miller check off?

Can Thibs build a program? Its all guesswork. We know nothing about what this management plans.

Woodson and especially Miller do not check nearly as many boxes as Thibs which is why I don't consider them serious candidates to land the job. I love the potential of Will Hardy, Chris Fleming and Udoka, and the idea of perhaps finding the next young innovative coach like Spolestra or Brad Stevens that can grow with the team, but when you work for an impatient owner, now way can I see Rose's first hire being an assistant coach with zero head coaching experience.

That leaves Kidd, Atkinson and Thibs. They all have their flaws, but of the 3, IMO, Atkinson makes the most sense for our team and where we are in our rebuilding process. As an observer, I have no clue what managements plans are and they may see the Knicks as being closer to competing than I do. Because of the constant drama that surrounds this organization, based on Kidd's past antics, some may see Kidd as bit too risky. That leaves Thibs who already has a long relationship with Rose. Rose mentioned the need for the coach and the front office to be on the same page so who better for Rose to hire than someone he knows well. Also, let's be honest, Thibs is Rose's safest bet based on his record and past success.

Add Woodson to the experienced. Rose and Thibs might be buds but that don’t mean they are comparable to the task. They might not agree on who goes, who stays, and the process to get there via roster construction. For all we know Thibs might be in line for a rockets or Philly gig and is ok with being a smoke screen as well has being a de-facto consultant to rose in his search. Thats just a guess. More than likely where there is smoke there is Thibs.
With Dolan, despite his stellar record of hiring minorities, the recent backlash on his lack of response might request we hire a black American coach. Dolan is often reactive.
If knicks are making a hire soon a coach still with a team in the hunt might not be available. Woodson, Kidd, Hardy, Udoka, Kidd, (who am I missing?) all are still in their season. Chris Fleming might be the next Bulls coach. In fact Knicks are not the only team looking for a coach!
As for fawning over Spoelstra, lets not forget the key to his longevity is the backing of his boss first and foremost. He stuck with him thru thick and thin. Continuity of the front office is key. Winning don’t hurt either!! But Spo has had seasons other teams would have likley seen as “time to go”.......

wargames wrote:

fishmike wrote:

wargames wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Uptown wrote:

fishmike wrote:Thibs would be so much better and is so much better than Woodson is laughable. Same with Mike Miller. Folks dont want to chase Lebron because they like David Lee part 2. Thibs took a 500 Bulls team to 60 wins in year one. Minn had their only winning season since KG was there under Thibs. He was instrumental in Boston championship. All he does he work hard and win. Thibs would be a great hire. Reminds of Carlisle going to the Mavs. He was replaced by Larry Brown and Pistons immediately won a title and the knocks on Carlisle were similar to what folks like to regurgitate about Thibs

Thibs would be a great hire. Someone like Jay Wright would be interesting. Woodson is the definition of a retread and he's had more losing seasons than winning ones. Mike Miller is a stop gap.

Thibs checks most of the boxes. Winning record as a coach, won division titles, defensive minded coach, was the coach when Minny made their 1st playoff appearance after missing the previous 13 years and developed a 30th pick in the draft, Jimmy Butler, into an allstar player. His resume looks really good, but I do have some concerns hiring him for This Team.

The Knicks as a franchise are at ground zero which is a place that Thibs has never coached from before. Minny was young and building when he got there, but they were much further along than we are today. In his first year, they won 31 games. It wasn't until he traded for his former Bulls (Butler, Rose, Gibson) and other vets (Teague) that they won 47 games in his second year and made the playoffs. Keep in mind, the T Wolves turned into a **** show the next year under Thibs' watch. My biggest concern with Thibs coming here is that his presence may cause us to skip steps in this rebuild and start reaching for vets and players to help us compete right away and chase the same 8th seed his Timberwolves achieved. We need a coach that is in it for the long haul, will grow with the team and allow us to not skip steps. Thibs strikes me as a coach you hire to finish the deal, not to begin the process.

Rightly or wrongly, perception is reality to a lot of people. And the perception of Thibs that's out there is not a good one. I was watching NBA the Jump, and Paul Pierce who played for Thibs when he was an assistant with the Celts mentioned that Thibs personality and overbearing ways may clash with today's players. He didn't give his former coach a ringing endorsement. If the Knicks are still delusional enough to believe that can attract free agents, even though this has never been a coveted destination, then Thibs would not be the way to go based on his perception.

Lastly, in Boston and Chicago, Thibs was known as a defensive guru. But his defense failed him in Minny. His defense was stellar for more years than it wasn't, but his poor defensive display in Minny also goes on his resume. Did the league catch up to his defensive principles? The league changed and was able to exploit his ICE pick and roll coverage. With that said, Thibs has been coaching for a long time, I'm certain he can adjust to the new pace and space NBA. But to what level?

I think Thibs is a good coach, I'm just not sure he is the right coach for where we are in our process.

good post, I really appreciate this. For me it really boils down to the bold. The one thing I know you get with Thibs is a good coach. He may not be the best fit, he may be perfect and really benefited from prior mistakes and experience. I dont know but we know he's a good coach and as you aptly put checks the boxes. I can work with that. Honest question (not directed at uptown)... what boxes do Woodson and Mike Miller check off?

Can Thibs build a program? Its all guesswork. We know nothing about what this management plans.

His defense is outdated

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fansided.com/2016/12/05/minnesota-timberwolves-tom-thibodeau-defensive-scheme/amp/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/deadspin.com/tom-thibodeau-is-destruction-1821265024/amp

so are your articles

Wow I bet you feel witty.... but nope those are called a record of past performance