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Mike Woodson over Tom t
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BRIGGS
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7/12/2020  3:22 PM
Little caveat

I’d like to hire the coach from Dayton. We’re simply rehiring massive retreads here. But I think Woodson is the better choice

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GustavBahler
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7/12/2020  3:55 PM
If the poll Uptown posted is an accurate reflection of how unpopular Thibs is. The front office will have some work to do getting elite players to come to NY.

Its going to be a few years before the World, the US in particular, gets through this crisis. The NBA will be in some form of a bubble for a while. The question Rose should be asking himself is wether or not he wants to put a coach who is known for being a hard case, in that bubble? Dont see that as a draw for FAs.

Uptown
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7/12/2020  4:15 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/12/2020  4:50 PM
The more research I do on Chris Fleming, the more I like. I would love for the Kincks to give him a shot, especially over retreads. Even if Rose refuses to hire an assistant as his 1st HC, would love to see Fleming as the associate head coach. Bulls have a new GM and are most likely going to fire Boylen. From what I've been reading, Udoka has a good shot land the HC job of the Bulls.
Uptown
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7/12/2020  4:19 PM
BRIGGS wrote:Little caveat

I’d like to hire the coach from Dayton. We’re simply rehiring massive retreads here. But I think Woodson is the better choice

Anthony Grant is a really good coach. He ran an NBA like offense at Dayton. If we were to go the college route, Jay Wright would be my first choice.

Nalod
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7/13/2020  5:07 AM
GustavBahler wrote:If the poll Uptown posted is an accurate reflection of how unpopular Thibs is. The front office will have some work to do getting elite players to come to NY.

Its going to be a few years before the World, the US in particular, gets through this crisis. The NBA will be in some form of a bubble for a while. The question Rose should be asking himself is wether or not he wants to put a coach who is known for being a hard case, in that bubble? Dont see that as a draw for FAs.

Poll was 20% sample. No data as to what the specifics were of the players. Was not even 4 teams worth of players. Did any play under him? Know him thru team USA? By reputation?
HOw many were former players? Etc.

fishmike
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7/13/2020  11:06 AM
Thibs would be so much better and is so much better than Woodson is laughable. Same with Mike Miller. Folks dont want to chase Lebron because they like David Lee part 2. Thibs took a 500 Bulls team to 60 wins in year one. Minn had their only winning season since KG was there under Thibs. He was instrumental in Boston championship. All he does he work hard and win. Thibs would be a great hire. Reminds of Carlisle going to the Mavs. He was replaced by Larry Brown and Pistons immediately won a title and the knocks on Carlisle were similar to what folks like to regurgitate about Thibs

Thibs would be a great hire. Someone like Jay Wright would be interesting. Woodson is the definition of a retread and he's had more losing seasons than winning ones. Mike Miller is a stop gap.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
smackeddog
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7/13/2020  12:14 PM
fishmike wrote:Thibs would be so much better and is so much better than Woodson is laughable. Same with Mike Miller. Folks dont want to chase Lebron because they like David Lee part 2. Thibs took a 500 Bulls team to 60 wins in year one. Minn had their only winning season since KG was there under Thibs. He was instrumental in Boston championship. All he does he work hard and win. Thibs would be a great hire. Reminds of Carlisle going to the Mavs. He was replaced by Larry Brown and Pistons immediately won a title and the knocks on Carlisle were similar to what folks like to regurgitate about Thibs

Thibs would be a great hire. Someone like Jay Wright would be interesting. Woodson is the definition of a retread and he's had more losing seasons than winning ones. Mike Miller is a stop gap.

I don't have a problem with Thibs, and don't agree with the knocks on him (plenty of experienced coaches have shown change and development in offensive and defensive schemes- why do they think Thibs wouldn't, it's crazy) I just think he's already been undermined too much to be given a real chance (media + players + being in NY = constant trashing). What do you think Thibs record would have been over the years if he'd started with the Hawks team Woody started with? I honestly don't think it would have been much different. How is Woody a retread but This isn't? They've both coached 2 teams. I really don't like the term retread, that seems to have creeped in to bball lexicon- it's dismissive of experienced coaches, as if having experience is a bad thing.

Uptown
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7/13/2020  11:12 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/14/2020  12:43 AM
fishmike wrote:Thibs would be so much better and is so much better than Woodson is laughable. Same with Mike Miller. Folks dont want to chase Lebron because they like David Lee part 2. Thibs took a 500 Bulls team to 60 wins in year one. Minn had their only winning season since KG was there under Thibs. He was instrumental in Boston championship. All he does he work hard and win. Thibs would be a great hire. Reminds of Carlisle going to the Mavs. He was replaced by Larry Brown and Pistons immediately won a title and the knocks on Carlisle were similar to what folks like to regurgitate about Thibs

Thibs would be a great hire. Someone like Jay Wright would be interesting. Woodson is the definition of a retread and he's had more losing seasons than winning ones. Mike Miller is a stop gap.

Thibs checks most of the boxes. Winning record as a coach, won division titles, defensive minded coach, was the coach when Minny made their 1st playoff appearance after missing the previous 13 years and developed a 30th pick in the draft, Jimmy Butler, into an allstar player. His resume looks really good, but I do have some concerns hiring him for This Team.

The Knicks as a franchise are at ground zero which is a place that Thibs has never coached from before. Minny was young and building when he got there, but they were much further along than we are today. In his first year, they won 31 games. It wasn't until he traded for his former Bulls (Butler, Rose, Gibson) and other vets (Teague) that they won 47 games in his second year and made the playoffs. Keep in mind, the T Wolves turned into a **** show the next year under Thibs' watch. My biggest concern with Thibs coming here is that his presence may cause us to skip steps in this rebuild and start reaching for vets and players to help us compete right away and chase the same 8th seed his Timberwolves achieved. We need a coach that is in it for the long haul, will grow with the team and allow us to not skip steps. Thibs strikes me as a coach you hire to finish the deal, not to begin the process.

Rightly or wrongly, perception is reality to a lot of people. And the perception of Thibs that's out there is not a good one. I was watching NBA the Jump, and Paul Pierce who played for Thibs when he was an assistant with the Celts mentioned that Thibs personality and overbearing ways may clash with today's players. He didn't give his former coach a ringing endorsement. If the Knicks are still delusional enough to believe that can attract free agents, even though this has never been a coveted destination, then Thibs would not be the way to go based on his perception.

Lastly, in Boston and Chicago, Thibs was known as a defensive guru. But his defense failed him in Minny. His defense was stellar for more years than it wasn't, but his poor defensive display in Minny also goes on his resume. Did the league catch up to his defensive principles? The league changed and was able to exploit his ICE pick and roll coverage. With that said, Thibs has been coaching for a long time, I'm certain he can adjust to the new pace and space NBA. But to what level?

I think Thibs is a good coach, I'm just not sure he is the right coach for where we are in our process.

Jimbo5
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7/14/2020  12:12 AM
As the days of July wind down, news coming out points to Thibs as the next coach. Its said that we should expect to see a veteran heavy team next season geared to support the young core but also help the team push for more "W"s. That fits Thibs to a T. I just hope our youth can truly develop to help sustain a competitive team for years to come. No short cuts please!
martin
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7/14/2020  10:48 AM
Jimbo5 wrote:As the days of July wind down, news coming out points to Thibs as the next coach. Its said that we should expect to see a veteran heavy team next season geared to support the young core but also help the team push for more "W"s. That fits Thibs to a T. I just hope our youth can truly develop to help sustain a competitive team for years to come. No short cuts please!

The Knicks have a ton of youth on the team. RJ, Mitch, Frank, DJ, Knox, 2020 #1 pick, 2020 pick #25, 2020 pick #38, Iggy. That's 9 players 22 and under. Julius Randle is 25. Knicks will have 2 first rounders next year plus a second. They NEED vets. One or more of the youth will probably get traded.

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smackeddog
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7/14/2020  11:25 AM
For me the important thing is WHICH vets? Please no repeats of this past season where 3 of our main vets tended to be ball hogs/freeze out the main player we're trying to develop
martin
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7/14/2020  11:34 AM
smackeddog wrote:For me the important thing is WHICH vets? Please no repeats of this past season where 3 of our main vets tended to be ball hogs/freeze out the main player we're trying to develop

yeah, but Randle aint going nowhere unfortunately. I hope I am wrong

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Uptown
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7/14/2020  11:37 AM
smackeddog wrote:For me the important thing is WHICH vets? Please no repeats of this past season where 3 of our main vets tended to be ball hogs/freeze out the main player we're trying to develop

The con of signing journeymen to 1 year deals. Winning may take a backseat as they will use it as an audition to get an extended contract down the road.

knicks1248
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7/14/2020  11:46 AM
martin wrote:
smackeddog wrote:For me the important thing is WHICH vets? Please no repeats of this past season where 3 of our main vets tended to be ball hogs/freeze out the main player we're trying to develop

yeah, but Randle aint going nowhere unfortunately. I hope I am wrong

Why do you say that, especially when 80% of the league thinks the knicks used Randle terrible wrong.

The guy was triple team almost every time he touch the ball in the paint because he has frank, payton, mitch, RJ,and Knox has his perimeter threats.

ES
martin
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7/14/2020  11:49 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
martin wrote:
smackeddog wrote:For me the important thing is WHICH vets? Please no repeats of this past season where 3 of our main vets tended to be ball hogs/freeze out the main player we're trying to develop

yeah, but Randle aint going nowhere unfortunately. I hope I am wrong

Why do you say that, especially when 80% of the league thinks the knicks used Randle terrible wrong.

The guy was triple team almost every time he touch the ball in the paint because he has frank, payton, mitch, RJ,and Knox has his perimeter threats.

You think another team gonna TRADE for Randle? Where is he going?

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martin
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7/14/2020  11:51 AM
Uptown wrote:
smackeddog wrote:For me the important thing is WHICH vets? Please no repeats of this past season where 3 of our main vets tended to be ball hogs/freeze out the main player we're trying to develop

The con of signing journeymen to 1 year deals. Winning may take a backseat as they will use it as an audition to get an extended contract down the road.

...winning teams are going to sign jouneymen who explicitly put their stats above winning? I think winning is a part of the formula

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Uptown
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7/14/2020  12:14 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/14/2020  12:16 PM
martin wrote:
Uptown wrote:
smackeddog wrote:For me the important thing is WHICH vets? Please no repeats of this past season where 3 of our main vets tended to be ball hogs/freeze out the main player we're trying to develop

The con of signing journeymen to 1 year deals. Winning may take a backseat as they will use it as an audition to get an extended contract down the road.

...winning teams are going to sign jouneymen who explicitly put their stats above winning? I think winning is a part of the formula

I'm not talking about winning teams. I'm talking about our Knicks. The motivation for signing here would be different than signing with the Clippers or Lakers or a team that has chance to win a 'chip. The motivation for someone like Morris signing here is to bet on himself. He put up career numbers here in pts (19) and 3pt FG% (44%) which could lead to a bigger pay day for him down the road. Morris is a 3rd or 4th option on a championship level team (see his role with the Clippers) and a number 1 option on a team like the Knicks where he was offered more money for 1 year and a chance to put up career numbers which he did.

smackeddog
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7/14/2020  12:21 PM
martin wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
martin wrote:
smackeddog wrote:For me the important thing is WHICH vets? Please no repeats of this past season where 3 of our main vets tended to be ball hogs/freeze out the main player we're trying to develop

yeah, but Randle aint going nowhere unfortunately. I hope I am wrong

Why do you say that, especially when 80% of the league thinks the knicks used Randle terrible wrong.

The guy was triple team almost every time he touch the ball in the paint because he has frank, payton, mitch, RJ,and Knox has his perimeter threats.

You think another team gonna TRADE for Randle? Where is he going?

Before COVID I thought we could trade him for maybe nothing, but there's no way a team takes on his salary for next season with all this uncertainty. I think Charlotte were our best shot but they'd insist we take back Rozier whose contract is a year longer.

Chandler
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7/14/2020  12:32 PM
back to the original post:

fishmike brings up some good points on Tom T

having said that,i think the concern with Mike Woodson and Tom T is the same: their best days might be behind them. We have seen this story many times before including from coaches with even better histories.

Now I can't guarantee his best days are behind him, but that would be my number 1 concern if i were calling the shots. As i mentioned in other posts, prior HC experience is far from a must for winning. Nurse, Kerr, Lue, Spolestra, Jackson (back in the day) and others have enjoyed great success on their first gig (sometimes their first year)

If I were boss, I want to know (1) does the candidate seem a step ahead of the competition and (2) hopefully, is he getting better, growing

(5)(5)
smackeddog
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7/14/2020  12:43 PM
Still maddening we could have had Bud but went for Fiz instead! Is there anyone who wouldn't take Bud over any of our candidates this time round?!
Mike Woodson over Tom t

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