The one time the Knicks should have traded a 1st round pick(to get rid of Noah) they decided not to, and now are giving Noah first round pick money (7 mill)to sit home.

This video indicated the knicks had more assets than any other franchise in the NBA (since 2002)and blew almost all of it, right up to this season.

The mountain of draft picks they could never develop, and when they did(david lee all star) they let him walk for nothing.

Maybe some one can email this to LEON, because we have been inept in every aspect of the game, Trades, FA, and drafts

knicks1248 wrote:Oh I know most fans are aware,

I'm just trying to figure out if the Franchise is cursed because every single move we make BACK FIRES.

Everybody comes in(president) and tries to not do what the previous guy does and ends up fcking up somewhere along the lines

with layden it was Allan houston

with Isiah it was eddy curry, marbury, Mcdyss,

with walsh it was Amare and Melo, and how bad he fcked up the Labron meeting

With grunwald it was Lin and Bargiani

With phil it was KP and Melo

With Mills it was everything, bad trades, bad drafting, bad signings.

Every president has made one too many bad moves that had sunk their ship. All of them had positives that were out weighed by their negatives..

Again, you're preaching to the converted. For the record, neither Marbury or Melo were bad moves in a vacuum. Everything the Knicks did to surround them with talent, was. I'm tired of this nonsensical argument thay those guys were somehow "losers" or the reason why this franchise has been a dumpster fire for 20 years.

jrodmc wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Oh I know most fans are aware,

I'm just trying to figure out if the Franchise is cursed because every single move we make BACK FIRES.

Everybody comes in(president) and tries to not do what the previous guy does and ends up fcking up somewhere along the lines

with layden it was Allan houston

with Isiah it was eddy curry, marbury, Mcdyss,

with walsh it was Amare and Melo, and how bad he fcked up the Labron meeting

With grunwald it was Lin and Bargiani

With phil it was KP and Melo

With Mills it was everything, bad trades, bad drafting, bad signings.

Every president has made one too many bad moves that had sunk their ship. All of them had positives that were out weighed by their negatives..

Again, you're preaching to the converted. For the record, neither Marbury or Melo were bad moves in a vacuum. Everything the Knicks did to surround them with talent, was. I'm tired of this nonsensical argument thay those guys were somehow "losers" or the reason why this franchise has been a dumpster fire for 20 years.

Yes, the drunk uncle (Nalod LLC, Copyright 2020) strikes again. Melo came in by himself and we went to the playoffs and actually won a series! And a division! Yeah, who the hell wants to see that again, right?

Marbles just imploded. Not sure if it was management or Larry Brown or both. That was a shame. A truly wasted installment of "Coming Home".

On some levels though, I would have to agree with the majority of 1248's rant. We would have fukkked up MJ coming "home"... or not managing to develop Larry Legend...

People are sheep. It's shocking to me how certain narratives get picked up and continue to linger. Melo got the Nuggets to the playoffs his ROOKIE SEASON without them making any other major changes to a 17-win roster. This of course came after a NCAA title run that featured Melo as the best player his FRESHMEN Year. The notion that this guy isn't a winner or one of the best talents to come into the league is a joke. The only blemish of his career was his decision to come to this laughingstock of a franchise.

Marbury was no Melo but super-talented in his own right. His career was on an upward trajectory before he became a Knick. If I'm not mistaken, he was only a season removed from nearly upsetting the Spurs in the first round during those 2003 playoffs with spot duty from a rookie Amare Stoudemire. Had we not taken the ball out of his hand and try to make him a pass-first PG and gotten shooters, we would've been a perennial playoff team. Instead, we got a bunch of overpaid re-threads and compounded the issue by getting Eddy Curry to be a sieve defensively and plodding ball stopper on offense. I still wonder how radically different Marbury's tenure would've been had we just stuck to Channing Frye at the 5 instead of Fatman Curry. I

Time for this franchise to look forward, a new era, one of optimism and hopefully sound business acumen. Keep the faith.

GustavBahler wrote:Part of it was lousy drafting. A lot of it was Dolan's obsession with the quick fix. We were often not good enough to contend, not bad enough for a high lotto pick. Easier to pick winners at the top of the draft.

Really poor talent evaluation by scouts etc. We gotta build at a steady pace, target lower tier FA not guys like Embiid & Harden. Offer good value contracts to players in their prime. We have the financial edge over most of the competition. Need to rebuild the franchise reputation through winning.

2019 - Barrett (3). Best player not named Zion or Ja. At least that's what it looks like to me. Barrett still has the makings of a potential All-star.
2018 - Knox (9). The miss was Shai Gigeous-Alexander - but hey, he plays with Chris Paul and I think that's really helped with his development. Knox played with... has he played with a legit veteran PG in his career? We made an incredible pick with Robinson, on the other hand has a strong argument as a top 5 player in this draft (by some measures #2 behind Luca).
2017 - Frank (8). Obviously missed on Mitchell, but so did 12 or so other teams. Lesser misses were on John Collins, Kuzma, and Adebayo.
2016 - no pick.
2015 - KP (4). Best player available, easily. (We tested out a number of guys picked right after him in Hezonja and Mudiay, both duds)
2014 - Early (34). Some late 2nd round jems in this draft: Jerami Grant (39), Nikola Jokic (41), Dinwiddie (38), Clarkson (46). (This is one of those drafts where the Knicks must have thought about trading up into the lottery: we've had lottery picks Randle (7), Vonleh (9), Elfrid (10), and Doug McDermott (11) on our roster in recent years.
2013 - TH Jr (19). Really good pick for the spot; the only player better that was picked later was Rudy Gobert (27) - but Gobert took a few years to become a weapon.
2012 - Papaniklaou - no one notable picked after
2011 - Iman Shumpert (17) - pretty good player based on his career. But this was an incredible draft in terms of late productivity. Probably the best example is Tobias Harris (19) - who picked a great time to have a career year and is on a 5yr/$180m contract. Jimmy Butler (30) ultimately was a big miss, but I bet in retrospect 25 of the teams picking ahead made a mistake. (Butler wasn't ready from the get-go, though - he didn't break out until his age 25 season! The Knicks would have given up on him, no doubt!)
2010 - Rautins (38), Landry Fields (39). Amazing pick with Fields... but really, he had a short shelf life due to injury.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/draft.html

Knickfury11 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Part of it was lousy drafting. A lot of it was Dolan's obsession with the quick fix. We were often not good enough to contend, not bad enough for a high lotto pick. Easier to pick winners at the top of the draft.

Really poor talent evaluation by scouts etc. We gotta build at a steady pace, target lower tier FA not guys like Embiid & Harden. Offer good value contracts to players in their prime. We have the financial edge over most of the competition. Need to rebuild the franchise reputation through winning.

If we elect to push our "financial edge", then there is no way we can also "offer good value contracts". Our "financial edge" is our willingness to pay people more than their market value to get them here (e.g. Tim Hardaway Jr), which in turn creates an albatross of a contract aka the antithesis of "good value". What I do wish we'd do more often is frontload the **** out of contracts. They'd be awful in the first year but with the cap ever-increasing and lower annual payments, it's possible that the contract could reach a point when it is an asset.

I also think we've been pretty good talent evaluators. Our draft picks tend to be pretty good their first year or two and then fizzle out. What I hope we'd be better at is player development because often times those draft picks never improve with us and we end up cratering their trade value/careers (see Landry Fields, Iman Shumpert, Toney Douglas, etc).

knicks1248 wrote:
This video indicated the knicks had more assets than any other franchise in the NBA (since 2002)and blew almost all of it, right up to this season.

The mountain of draft picks they could never develop, and when they did(david lee all star) they let him walk for nothing.

Yes and No

"Value For Slot" and "Market Correction"

Any Knicks first round pick, given the time and place, was it considered value for slot. For example, the Cavs taking Anthony Bennett first overall. The league consensus did not match that pick. Does that mean the Cavs should have picked just what the rest of the league does? No, but the Jets are good way to explain this. If the Jets draft a guy in the third round that the league consensus is a 6th round pick, that's lacking "Value For Slot" You can still pick that player, but you could probably ( not a promise) 3 rounds later and use the value of that 3rd round pick elsewhere to help your team.

Dallas taking Shawn Bradley first overall looks bad now. But you have to consider "Market Correction" ( this is different than how finance uses the term) Back when Bradley was drafted, the game was different and the talent pool for centers was much different. Now big men have declined in value, but back then, there was a real scarcity in the league to find a solid center.

If the Knicks picked a player and he had reasonable value for slot and that players skill set lined up with what was valuable in the general marketplace at that given time, then if the Knicks missed on that pick, they miss.

The idea is not to never miss. The idea is to try to get as close to value for the draft position you are in and factor in how the game is being played and what you need to compete considering those trends.

Trading your first round picks away period is a bad move. Usually that's just indefensible. But missing on a pick requires deeper context.

I also think people have a poor understanding of "development" It's not like you can take a Nerlen Noels and get him a coach like a prime Chuck Daly and then turn him into the next Draymond Green. If you take a hot dog and douse it with A1 Sauce, you don't get a steak. You a hot dog floating in a bowl of A1 Sauce.

Usually a spike in performance comes from

A) A previous lack of minutes
B) Previous injury that limited opportunity
C) The player did not move towards his full potential because he was lazy/bad attitude/selfish/crap teammate/etc

The talent did not jump out, THE CIRCUMSTANCE CHANGED THAT WORKED AS A LIMITER TO SAID TALENT

But those spikes don't happen very often. Usually you show in your first season and a half what you will be in the league and about midway through your 3rd season, you've shown probably 95 percent of what you are likely to be period. There are a few exceptions, they don't however change the basic rule.

It amuses for so long that many who follow basketball really consider Daryl Morey a genius. It's not that I think he's dumb, it's just that Morey simply applies the best market based decision and value for slot whenever he can. Can he control when his owner overrules him? No. Can he control when he picks and who gets hurt? No. But making the best market based decision is often pretty simple. Yes, you will miss, but the principle behind it is that you will miss far less than any other methodology.

To me,

A guy doesn't pan out but you used market correction and value for slot - You just missed on a pick

A guy doesn't pan out but you didn't use market correction and/or value for slot - You blew the pick

A guy doesn't pan out because you traded the draft pick away in a deal not in line with market value - You wasted the pick

Frank N is not going to pan out like people hoped. The Knicks MISSED on the pick. Frank N could play defense and had size and length and good wing defenders are valued. The rest of the league saw his value around that Tier that the Knicks took him. Knicks did the best they could and it didn't work out.

It's OK ( though it sucks balls) to miss on a pick sometimes. The trick is to stop blowing the picks and stop wasting the picks.

knicks1248 wrote:IMO a draft pick doesn't work out fro 1 of 5 reason.

1)His skill set doesn't fit the system he's playing in nor does he compliment the players already on the roster

2)his work ethic sucks

3)He's force to play though his mistakes and develops a bunch of bad habits

4)injuries

5)The coach tries to turn him into something he's not

You should digest what triple wrote instead of reguritating the same response 3x a week.

You want to know why Charlie Ward develop into a solid role player and the only rookie to be resigned in 25 yrs, Go look at the knicks roster and record in wards first 4 seasons..Winning Culture, stacked with high character vets like Mark jackson, derrick harper, Blackmon, not to mention his style of play (rough and tough) fit the the knicks.

Phil didn't draft frank to be no run and gun scoring PG, and if thats the style we were moving onto, why would you keep him, or anyone for the matter that didn't fit that style.

Until the knicks established a winning culture they need to build this team through Trades and FA..