From worst to first. I’m not looking at records although that should matter.

Wilkins: Isiah first two moves was getting Marbles and the idiocy of embarrassing Don Chaney on David Letterman with is slimy way. As mentioned it was a botched hire. Fratello’s agent threw the name out and Isiah took it.

Isiah: when a puppy ****s on the floor you stick his nose in it so he don’t do it again. When you crate train a puppy they don’t pee where they sleep. They won’t lie in it. If they do, shave there bellies so they feel the wet. Isiah shyt and peed in the crate and Dolan made him lie in it.

Derek Fisher: On paper a good choice but it was Phils third choice. Steve Kerr and Luke Walton were his two. Dereks OKC “bliss and longstreet” guys did not give a Fuck about Phil guys “Cleamons and Rambis”. The guys with Triangle Rings.

Larry Brown: About everything Isiah touched turned to shyt. The hire was a good one but Isiah did not understand what every other NBA exec knew: Larry will drive the car! Larry got paid, had a 5 year deal, got Eddy to play well but he was dealt a weird cast of players, could not get on with Marbles, and the way it ended was even worse.

The first 4 are “worsts” because of the stupidity of how they were hired.

I won’t rank Interim Herb, Rambis or Miller. They were obviously left with the task of rectifying something bad. I do like Miller and hope he either stays or is part of the plan going forward.
Rambis was shyt. I don’t even remember Herb leaving an impression.

continuing.....

Fizdale: I’m not sure he was so bad as much as he was tanking. Never coached KP and played the rookies. I can’t defend 17 wins and can’t say he did a good job. He did’t. If we took him over Bud because the PR (starphuch) then it stays consistent at that these guys fail in the manner in which they were hired.

big spread here btw......Ranking Fiz next to Horney is not indicative.

Hornacek: In this case Phil panicked and hired a decent coach. He could not coach the triangle. I thought he did ok otherwise. He had a bit of old school Sloan and the tough love was not a good fit or teenagers.

Mike Miller: I’d put him here. He did something positive and changed the momentum of the team. He might have actually done the best coaching job since JVG.

Woodson: “what they do......They smile in your face.....all the time wanna take your place.......The back stabbers”. Mike undercut . Hired as a “defensive coach” was a sham. This was the era when Isiah was still in Dolan’s ear. Mike got a veteran team to win 54 games and gave Melo the keys. we won a series and ran out of gas vs Indy in the next series. I remember it as melo’s finest season but they wasted time by having a “funeral” to end he Celtics run and instead woke them up and if anything wore out the the Knicks. Next series Melo whined and complained and JR got dazed in the night club.

Don Chaney. Another former COY. His teams played hard. He was dignified. He did nothing bad and had a roster of retiring contracts when he got canned. Replaced by Wilkins who at that moment was not an upgrade.

Notice we have a list of former COY and HOF guys and they suck here?

This might be a bit unconventional as he obviously did not do his best work here. but I liked Mike. I like coaches like him, Larry, and Phil who are successful, have a formula, know it works, don’t bend to its roster and stay true to what they believe. I could put Larry Brown up here but he had only one year and an awful start. Should have let him make his own roster. Mike lasted 3.5 years. He Segwayd from Isiahs mess to Dolans Post Lebron attempt that included AMare and then Melo. Could not get Melo to be what he wanted and Amare predictively broke. His work with Rockets validates his Sun’s years that had the Spurs and Phil’s lakers preventing him from winning a chip. LIke Larry and Lenny he will be in the HOF one day. His Euro record takes him over the top. Good coach. Just not a good knick coach.

Reflecting: Not a very good list or era.

smackeddog wrote:

Nalod wrote:Long ass list.

From worst to first. I’m not looking at records although that should matter.

Wilkins: Isiah first two moves was getting Marbles and the idiocy of embarrassing Don Chaney on David Letterman with is slimy way. As mentioned it was a botched hire. Fratello’s agent threw the name out and Isiah took it.

Isiah: when a puppy ****s on the floor you stick his nose in it so he don’t do it again. When you crate train a puppy they don’t pee where they sleep. They won’t lie in it. If they do, shave there bellies so they feel the wet. Isiah shyt and peed in the crate and Dolan made him lie in it.

Derek Fisher: On paper a good choice but it was Phils third choice. Steve Kerr and Luke Walton were his two. Dereks OKC “bliss and longstreet” guys did not give a Fuck about Phil guys “Cleamons and Rambis”. The guys with Triangle Rings.

Larry Brown: About everything Isiah touched turned to shyt. The hire was a good one but Isiah did not understand what every other NBA exec knew: Larry will drive the car! Larry got paid, had a 5 year deal, got Eddy to play well but he was dealt a weird cast of players, could not get on with Marbles, and the way it ended was even worse.

The first 4 are “worsts” because of the stupidity of how they were hired.

I won’t rank Interim Herb, Rambis or Miller. They were obviously left with the task of rectifying something bad. I do like Miller and hope he either stays or is part of the plan going forward.
Rambis was shyt. I don’t even remember Herb leaving an impression.

continuing.....

Fizdale: I’m not sure he was so bad as much as he was tanking. Never coached KP and played the rookies. I can’t defend 17 wins and can’t say he did a good job. He did’t. If we took him over Bud because the PR (starphuch) then it stays consistent at that these guys fail in the manner in which they were hired.

big spread here btw......Ranking Fiz next to Horney is not indicative.

Hornacek: In this case Phil panicked and hired a decent coach. He could not coach the triangle. I thought he did ok otherwise. He had a bit of old school Sloan and the tough love was not a good fit or teenagers.

Mike Miller: I’d put him here. He did something positive and changed the momentum of the team. He might have actually done the best coaching job since JVG.

Woodson: “what they do......They smile in your face.....all the time wanna take your place.......The back stabbers”. Mike undercut . Hired as a “defensive coach” was a sham. This was the era when Isiah was still in Dolan’s ear. Mike got a veteran team to win 54 games and gave Melo the keys. we won a series and ran out of gas vs Indy in the next series. I remember it as melo’s finest season but they wasted time by having a “funeral” to end he Celtics run and instead woke them up and if anything wore out the the Knicks. Next series Melo whined and complained and JR got dazed in the night club.

Don Chaney. Another former COY. His teams played hard. He was dignified. He did nothing bad and had a roster of retiring contracts when he got canned. Replaced by Wilkins who at that moment was not an upgrade.

Notice we have a list of former COY and HOF guys and they suck here?

This might be a bit unconventional as he obviously did not do his best work here. but I liked Mike. I like coaches like him, Larry, and Phil who are successful, have a formula, know it works, don’t bend to its roster and stay true to what they believe. I could put Larry Brown up here but he had only one year and an awful start. Should have let him make his own roster. Mike lasted 3.5 years. He Segwayd from Isiahs mess to Dolans Post Lebron attempt that included AMare and then Melo. Could not get Melo to be what he wanted and Amare predictively broke. His work with Rockets validates his Sun’s years that had the Spurs and Phil’s lakers preventing him from winning a chip. LIke Larry and Lenny he will be in the HOF one day. His Euro record takes him over the top. Good coach. Just not a good knick coach.

Reflecting: Not a very good list or era.

Nice analysis! It's pretty poor track record- mediocre assistant coaches not suited to being head coaches, peppered with the occasional big name that doesn't work out (chiefly because they don't fit with the personel. Still irks me that we could have signed Bud instead of Fiz and built the roster to fit his system. Instead we signed the used car salesman and traded away our best young player to take a shot at 2 stars that never even gave us an interview. Monumental disaster.

The bizarre thing about the list is... how rarely we just went for a coach with a proven record who wasn't past it. D-Antoni and Larry Brown were the only 2 in 20 years and, what 13 vacancies?! Ridiculous. And with both of those we failed to give them a roster to fit their system (though with D'Antoni, we gave him one for half a season out of his whole stint here.)

I think we pass over Don Chaney who was COY in Houstan and really we can't fault him for the team when he was let go. Team was expiring its contracts and for the first time not starphucing and had its picks coming up. It was reeling from the McDyess debocle. I get that Isiah wanted his guy in but he really was full of himself and missed badly.

If you think about it, Nelson in retrospect was very forward thinking but it required moving past Ewing sooner than anyone was comfortable with. The Knicks caved to JVG which was wrong, but it worked. His run to finals kicked in a two 4mm extension. I liked Jeff but it was clumsy. Team was built for speed and he was the wrong guy to coach it. He stays and the GM Grunfeld had to go. Enter neophyte Layden who was simply doing what a lot of GM's do, cater to their boss. Except his was a petulent insecure alcholic. The rest is symptomatic of a leader who reacts then anticipates.

Is Dolan being trendy with the "Hire the cool agent thing"? Do I like Leon? Hardley know him. I like what i read but I liked them all at first. Phil was going to bring his Championship DNA and culturally infuse it. Donnie was going to bring his sensible approach after Indy's strong years. Layden was the man who scouted Stockton and Malone! Did not like Isiah from day one. Grunwald kind of just "Stayed". Grunfeld did a very good job. Dolan undercut him out of fear.

Don Nelson to Dallas and his son as GM was the Culture that eventually got them a chip. Nellie started it. They go to finals with Avery and Carlisle ascended it. Donnie Nelson Stayed on after his pops left. Larry planted the culture in San Antonio. Buford and Pop can in under him.

jazz74 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:So starting with Don Chaney onwards, rank some of these- who was better in retrospect, which were the absolute worse, and which were better than thought at the time?

Don Chaney 2001-4
Herb Williams 2004
Lenny Wilkens 2004-5 (chosen because of a PR disaster, whereby their choice of Fratello fell through, which left them scrambling to find a new coach before a story ran- basically they picked his name out of a hat)
Herb Williams 2005
Larry Brown 2005-6
Isiah Thomas 2006-8 (how was he really as a coach? Can't remember!)
Mike D-Antoni 2008-12 (I didn't like him, but I think he clearly stands out as maybe the best coach of the last 20yrs)
Mike Woodson 2012-2014 (My favourite coach of the last 20yrs, the perfect fit for the roster at the time. Basically took must of D'Antoni's stuff, but was more likeable as a person)
Derek Fisher 2014-16
Kurt Ramis 2016
Jeff Hornacek 2016-18
Fizdale 2018-19 (A used car salesman, got screwed over but he's basically a PR trick)
Mike Miller 2019 (an average to pretty good coach who looks great because his predecessors have been so awful)

Who was better or worse between Hornacek vs Fisher?????

I guess I will do the best to the worst:

1.) woodson- he is the most successful of the list so he should be in there. not to mention he got the most out of his players with a lot of them experiencing their best seasons under him. great defensively but unimaginative offensively

2.)d'antoni- now there are huge drops. his tenure ended badly but before melo he had a team with little talent and made them exciting to watch.

3.) hornecek- jeez this is bad. however, i put him on this list because he did mold a good team....before porzingis went down and then it fell apart. he was impressive because he had so many obstacles in his way and still the players played for him. that is an accomplishment for coaches in the past 20 years.

4.) wilkins- true he lasted half a season but the team was in the playoff bubble. then marbury went off the rails and became his usual defiant self and wilkins decided to abandon the team. he should be lower just by doing that but we wont fault van gundy for doing that so we shouldnt with wilkins. he had the team playing decent for two months which is amazing on this list.

5.) miller- only half a season and this guy is on the upper tier of this list. thats BAD! however, he has gotten them to play better by simplifying their playbook and developing confidence in MOST of the young players ( still waiting for knox).

6.) chaney- i could not stand chaney because his record was "subpar" at the time and as a fan i was not used to seeing 35-40 win teams. now those were the good old days. to be truthful, he had to navigate with a roster that was fragile and had major injuries as well as sprewell falling off the rails. i respect him more now than then.

7.) williams- it is unfair to him since both times he was given the role way before he was ready. he was being groomed into a coach by the likes of van gundy, chaney and wilkins and he both times given the playbook because the team was considered unruly and the coaches quit. he was not prepared and derailed any hope of becoming ahead coach in the nba.

8.) fisher- he was awful and i will never forget in a huddle he told his adult players not to be afraid and the other team put on their pants like you! he was also a victim of jackson hijacking his practices which made it confusing for players. not to mention him acting wild and unprofessional which caused him to get beat up by barnes and barnes harnassing resentment over the knicks for years.

9.)zeke- well, after coaching the team i guess he realize his roster wasnt that good! the only thing he did was develop the young players into adequate players but he did not accomplish much with this roster and could not, like most coaches, rein in marbury.

10.)brown- this is the one hire that surprised me the most. we saw what he did with indy and philly and how he dealt with players with huge egos like ai and miller so i thought he would be a great fit. man was i wrong. he ochestrated the worst ( at the time as others on this list beat it) regular season record in the franchise history in a year where they do not have a draft pick. none of the players improved A BIT. it was bad. brown bounced back somewhat in college but yet to be back in the nba because his methods are considered retro.

11.)rambis- so when he took over the reins he was so bad that i cant believe he was coaching. he was full in on the triangle and implemented it but he did a poor job teaching it. the players were confused and look lost and frustrated which led to a blow up in the locker room with melo. not to mention that opposing teams said they loved playing the knicks because their offense was simple and predictable. he was just a jackson lackey who masqueraded as a coach.

12.)fizdale- surprise, surprise! he has to be on the bottom because he was responsible for the knicks worst regular season record historically and one of the worst starts in its history. he made a promise that he could not keep and had to develop young players which is not his strong suit. to be honest, even though he is last on this list, he should get another coaching job because his strength is coaching teams with stars, something the knicks dont have. he made poor decision after poor decision that seemed common sense. it was almost like he was sabotaging the seasons.

Amazing in-depth analysis, would only change brown in front of Isiah. You can only be effective coaching if personnel is at all responsive in any way whatsoever...

Allanfan20 wrote:Woodson, for 1 season, got the team to overachieve on defense and ride on Melos shoulders. He also made good use of Novak. That helped us a lot.

MDA was a good coach for a season and a half. He shouldn’t have been fired when he was.

Don Chaney had the Knicks over-achieving. He was nothing special but neither was the club.

I wanted to give Larry Brown more time but he had a ton of talent and his team couldn’t buy in during a season that we had no draft pick.

Isiah, Fisher, Rambis, Horny and Fizdale were all sheot, although under Horny, the team actually played decent when KP was healthy.

I don’t have the heart to say a bad thing about Herb and I have a black heart.

Lenny wasn’t too good either although he didn’t have a team.