meloshouldgo wrote:

What you are asking for is, if I may paraphrase, "When will a tsunami sized 3rd party voting block appear that will instantly vote out all corporate interests". You asking the wrong question and only looking at one path with blinders on while negating the realistics of what is in front of you. Sure, going from Point A to Point B is a straight line but if the road is super curved and bends way out of the direct line, sometimes you gotta take it to get to where you want to go.

I guess that means you won't acknowledge that the last 50 years of voting them out didn't work?

Incremental gains? Incremental gains get wiped out the next voting cycle.

And the above bolded could not be more wrong. I have no hope or secret wish for a Bernie takeover or third party - they would get corrupted or castrated by the same corporate elite. I am more interested in rejecting paths that I know don't work and then seeing what's left. You on the other hand are clinging to a path, that leads to abject miserable failure over and over again. Look at AOC now supporting "blue no matter who" - so basically she is going to sheepdog her supporters into voting for that carcass of a spineless jellyfish that used to be our vice president. The system always wins. They system is rigged, the rules are made by the ones who own it - you can't beat them at their own game when you play by their rules (Ask Bernie Sanders circa 2016). It doesn't work that way.

While you make some good points. You understand why she is doing so right? GOP is united using Trump's cult like following to maintain power. She is only supporting blue no matter who in order to combat that. Any other route and Trump stays in office. So I understand this decision from her. I doubt that she will be blindly supporting all of Biden's policy if he were to get in office though. Just because he is a Democrat. I am very sure she would to be openly critical of him.

Not voting isn't going to shut down the system or even hurt the elite. No matter how little the votes, the process will still be in place. AOC getting voted into office beating out Crowley did rattle cages amoung the Democratic party though. American Revolution, Civil War or Boston Tea party type of event isn't realistically going to happen in this day and age. It's not muskets vs muskets today with no internet & technology. The revolution would need to be people getting informed about politics and voting in the AOC types that fit their needs accross the US. Which is to happen every 2 years. And if AOC isn't holding her end of the bargin than she is up for re-election soon, and then again in 2 years after that. Only when politicians understand that their careers are acutally in jeopardy unless they represent the people will change happen. Big buisness is all over it, which is why their interst have always come first. The ramifications and accountability from the general public has been lacking.

But AOC showed that Crowley who was supposed to be next in line for Pelosi's seat can be beaten out. Even without the backing of big buisness or deeply rooted polictical connections. Guys like Lindsey Graham(64 yrs old, been in Senate since 2003) and Mitch McConnell(78 yrs old been in the Senate since 1984) are both up for reelection this yr. People of Kentucky and South Carolina have the opportunity to vote them out. Given the amount of power Mcconnell has wielded when holding or not holding President accountable for his actions. That is one area that should change. Should be maybe up to more than just Kentucky to decide that.

newyorknewyork wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

What you are asking for is, if I may paraphrase, "When will a tsunami sized 3rd party voting block appear that will instantly vote out all corporate interests". You asking the wrong question and only looking at one path with blinders on while negating the realistics of what is in front of you. Sure, going from Point A to Point B is a straight line but if the road is super curved and bends way out of the direct line, sometimes you gotta take it to get to where you want to go.

I guess that means you won't acknowledge that the last 50 years of voting them out didn't work?

Incremental gains? Incremental gains get wiped out the next voting cycle.

And the above bolded could not be more wrong. I have no hope or secret wish for a Bernie takeover or third party - they would get corrupted or castrated by the same corporate elite. I am more interested in rejecting paths that I know don't work and then seeing what's left. You on the other hand are clinging to a path, that leads to abject miserable failure over and over again. Look at AOC now supporting "blue no matter who" - so basically she is going to sheepdog her supporters into voting for that carcass of a spineless jellyfish that used to be our vice president. The system always wins. They system is rigged, the rules are made by the ones who own it - you can't beat them at their own game when you play by their rules (Ask Bernie Sanders circa 2016). It doesn't work that way.

While you make some good points. You understand why she is doing so right? GOP is united using Trump's cult like following to maintain power. She is only supporting blue no matter who in order to combat that. Any other route and Trump stays in office. So I understand this decision from her. I doubt that she will be blindly supporting all of Biden's policy if he were to get in office though. Just because he is a Democrat. I am very sure she would to be openly critical of him.

Not voting isn't going to shut down the system or even hurt the elite. No matter how little the votes, the process will still be in place. AOC getting voted into office beating out Crowley did rattle cages amoung the Democratic party though. American Revolution, Civil War or Boston Tea party type of event isn't realistically going to happen in this day and age. It's not muskets vs muskets today with no internet & technology. The revolution would need to be people getting informed about politics and voting in the AOC types that fit their needs accross the US. Which is to happen every 2 years. And if AOC isn't holding her end of the bargin than she is up for re-election soon, and then again in 2 years after that. Only when politicians understand that their careers are acutally in jeopardy unless they represent the people will change happen. Big buisness is all over it, which is why their interst have always come first. The ramifications and accountability from the general public has been lacking.

But AOC showed that Crowley who was supposed to be next in line for Pelosi's seat can be beaten out. Even without the backing of big buisness or deeply rooted polictical connections. Guys like Lindsey Graham(64 yrs old, been in Senate since 2003) and Mitch McConnell(78 yrs old been in the Senate since 1984) are both up for reelection this yr. People of Kentucky and South Carolina have the opportunity to vote them out. Given the amount of power Mcconnell has wielded when holding or not holding President accountable for his actions. That is one area that should change. Should be maybe up to more than just Kentucky to decide that.

I understand and don't accept why she is doing what she is doing. I also didn't accept the choice between Trump and Hillary either. My point is those that succumb to the system using this type of rationalization are never going to be able to overcome the system. I don't buy she will be able to mount a viable challenge to Biden's policies - because a new enemy or crisis can invented at will, and the same fallacy of it's us against them can be presented at each vote. Is she going to vote to end the livelihood of coal miners or to save the environment? I think you guys see what I am saying? All our choices are from within he same corrupt system and presented as binary. No one is willing to do anything outside of that and when they do they get shutdown (Sanders, 2016).

I totally disagree about your second paragraph. Civil disobedience can and does happen in this day and age. We just don't have leaders to do it. You are already setting up arguments for why it would fail - which is defeatist mindset. Take climate change as an example - for years we are told we can't unplug from fossil fuel and they keep selling hummers. There has been zero leadership and a bunch of dog-whistle policy making with carbon trading and green energy. "Renewable energy" relies heavily on fossil fuels - from car battery manufacturing to blades for windmills, and most of these products cannot be recycled like solar panels. This is how our one party system reacts to crises. By creating more products to sell and more ways to profit from it. One 16 year old Swedish girl did more to bring the fight for real climate change through civil disobedience than all the climate change savvy leaders of our country put together, think about it. An autistic child kick started a global movement by sitting out classes holding up a handmade cardboard sign. Before any of that, how would you have responded if someone asked you whether that would work? XR (eXtinction Rebellion) in UK arranges mass civil disobedience acts to force the dialogue on climate change. THAT is how you make more and more people politically aware. If they can do it why can't we?

newyorknewyork wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

What you are asking for is, if I may paraphrase, "When will a tsunami sized 3rd party voting block appear that will instantly vote out all corporate interests". You asking the wrong question and only looking at one path with blinders on while negating the realistics of what is in front of you. Sure, going from Point A to Point B is a straight line but if the road is super curved and bends way out of the direct line, sometimes you gotta take it to get to where you want to go.

I guess that means you won't acknowledge that the last 50 years of voting them out didn't work?

Incremental gains? Incremental gains get wiped out the next voting cycle.

And the above bolded could not be more wrong. I have no hope or secret wish for a Bernie takeover or third party - they would get corrupted or castrated by the same corporate elite. I am more interested in rejecting paths that I know don't work and then seeing what's left. You on the other hand are clinging to a path, that leads to abject miserable failure over and over again. Look at AOC now supporting "blue no matter who" - so basically she is going to sheepdog her supporters into voting for that carcass of a spineless jellyfish that used to be our vice president. The system always wins. They system is rigged, the rules are made by the ones who own it - you can't beat them at their own game when you play by their rules (Ask Bernie Sanders circa 2016). It doesn't work that way.

While you make some good points. You understand why she is doing so right? GOP is united using Trump's cult like following to maintain power. She is only supporting blue no matter who in order to combat that. Any other route and Trump stays in office. So I understand this decision from her. I doubt that she will be blindly supporting all of Biden's policy if he were to get in office though. Just because he is a Democrat. I am very sure she would to be openly critical of him.

Not voting isn't going to shut down the system or even hurt the elite. No matter how little the votes, the process will still be in place. AOC getting voted into office beating out Crowley did rattle cages amoung the Democratic party though. American Revolution, Civil War or Boston Tea party type of event isn't realistically going to happen in this day and age. It's not muskets vs muskets today with no internet & technology. The revolution would need to be people getting informed about politics and voting in the AOC types that fit their needs accross the US. Which is to happen every 2 years. And if AOC isn't holding her end of the bargin than she is up for re-election soon, and then again in 2 years after that. Only when politicians understand that their careers are acutally in jeopardy unless they represent the people will change happen. Big buisness is all over it, which is why their interst have always come first. The ramifications and accountability from the general public has been lacking.

But AOC showed that Crowley who was supposed to be next in line for Pelosi's seat can be beaten out. Even without the backing of big buisness or deeply rooted polictical connections. Guys like Lindsey Graham(64 yrs old, been in Senate since 2003) and Mitch McConnell(78 yrs old been in the Senate since 1984) are both up for reelection this yr. People of Kentucky and South Carolina have the opportunity to vote them out. Given the amount of power Mcconnell has wielded when holding or not holding President accountable for his actions. That is one area that should change. Should be maybe up to more than just Kentucky to decide that.

I understand and don't accept why she is doing what she is doing. I also didn't accept the choice between Trump and Hillary either. My point is those that succumb to the system using this type of rationalization are never going to be able to overcome the system. I don't buy she will be able to mount a viable challenge to Biden's policies - because a new enemy or crisis can invented at will, and the same fallacy of it's us against them can be presented at each vote. Is she going to vote to end the livelihood of coal miners or to save the environment? I think you guys see what I am saying? All our choices are from within he same corrupt system and presented as binary. No one is willing to do anything outside of that and when they do they get shutdown (Sanders, 2016).

I totally disagree about your second paragraph. Civil disobedience can and does happen in this day and age. We just don't have leaders to do it. You are already setting up arguments for why it would fail - which is defeatist mindset. Take climate change as an example - for years we are told we can't unplug from fossil fuel and they keep selling hummers. There has been zero leadership and a bunch of dog-whistle policy making with carbon trading and green energy. "Renewable energy" relies heavily on fossil fuels - from car battery manufacturing to blades for windmills, and most of these products cannot be recycled like solar panels. This is how our one party system reacts to crises. By creating more products to sell and more ways to profit from it. One 16 year old Swedish girl did more to bring the fight for real climate change through civil disobedience than all the climate change savvy leaders of our country put together, think about it. An autistic child kick started a global movement by sitting out classes holding up a handmade cardboard sign. Before any of that, how would you have responded if someone asked you whether that would work? XR (eXtinction Rebellion) in UK arranges mass civil disobedience acts to force the dialogue on climate change. THAT is how you make more and more people politically aware. If they can do it why can't we?

AOC was backing and still backs Bernie, but if Biden were to beat Bernie out. Backing Biden to form a united front against Trump is the logical choice from the Democratic side, and Bernie stated he would do the same. And while Sanders was cheated in 2016, it has been the general public who have deserted him at this stage of the election in 2020. Biden is beating out Bernie because the people who set out to vote are the ones who put climate change on the back burner. The youth vote, who care about the future didn't show out. The older generation who care less about the future and more about todays survival showed out. The majority of the general public has not made climate change the priority it has needed to be by flooding the elected officials over the yrs with people of this mind set. But they are to protest in the streets for this not being a top priority? Trump got in office while openly denouncing climate change because the people whose jobs depend on it didn't care about climate change for the future. But how to feed their families this moment. So for all the people who will protest to make awareness of these issues. There will be regular people who will also protest the opposite if its more beneficial for them to do so for the present.

You are wrong about the defeatest attitude. Your views on how to fight are just different, but at the end of the day the goals are still the same. Establishing ramifications and accountability for the decision making of the people in positions of power. Someone like AOC getting elected was a form of protest. Trump getting elected was a form a protest. These were both out of the box, cage rattling elections.

This is the part I fully agree with:

Your views on how to fight are just different, but at the end of the day the goals are still the same. Establishing ramifications and accountability for the decision making of the people in positions of power. Someone like AOC getting elected was a form of protest. Trump getting elected was a form a protest. These were both out of the box, cage rattling elections.

Trump was a non-system candidate elected in protest of Obama's betrayal of the people. AOC probably elected in response to Trump's betrayal - don't you see this is why it doesn't work? They'll always betray us because they have to play by the rules of the system that is corrupt and owned by oligarchs? And some of them like Trump are more corrupt than the system even if they don't play by any rules.

I honestly don't think Bernie is that much of a better choice at this point and I am not rooting for him (I did in 2016). I don't however buy this MSM talking point about youth not showing up to vote - the game is rigged in every possible way. In 2020 MSM has continuously questioned Bernie's feasibility as a candidate when he was beating everybody. Do you hear them question Biden's feasibility? This creepy dude that has been accused of sexually assaulting women? How much negative coverage is Creepy, gropy Joe getting? Compared to "socialist" Bernie? You are discounting the impact of the last primary on Bernie voters - who got the message that no matter what, he would be made to lose. Lots of people from Obama to Pelosi came out and said that as well in 2020 - we will make sure Dems are not represented by a socialist. Does that have possibly have something to do with why they are not coming out? Just saying.

But I am not interested in Bernie vs. Biden, you are right in that I am interested in a different way of approaching this. I want to see this oligarchy and this one party system brought to it's knees and replaced with something else, my preference would be democratic socialism. And to do that the perfect leader will come from outside the political system just like Greta did for environmental issues. And yes there will always opposition to anything - half of the country fought to preserve how slavery benefited them, since when has that been a reason to not overcome status quo? I don't what this will take, I can't read the future, but I can read the past and I do know it ain't voting.

meloshouldgo wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

What you are asking for is, if I may paraphrase, "When will a tsunami sized 3rd party voting block appear that will instantly vote out all corporate interests". You asking the wrong question and only looking at one path with blinders on while negating the realistics of what is in front of you. Sure, going from Point A to Point B is a straight line but if the road is super curved and bends way out of the direct line, sometimes you gotta take it to get to where you want to go.

I guess that means you won't acknowledge that the last 50 years of voting them out didn't work?

Incremental gains? Incremental gains get wiped out the next voting cycle.

And the above bolded could not be more wrong. I have no hope or secret wish for a Bernie takeover or third party - they would get corrupted or castrated by the same corporate elite. I am more interested in rejecting paths that I know don't work and then seeing what's left. You on the other hand are clinging to a path, that leads to abject miserable failure over and over again. Look at AOC now supporting "blue no matter who" - so basically she is going to sheepdog her supporters into voting for that carcass of a spineless jellyfish that used to be our vice president. The system always wins. They system is rigged, the rules are made by the ones who own it - you can't beat them at their own game when you play by their rules (Ask Bernie Sanders circa 2016). It doesn't work that way.

While you make some good points. You understand why she is doing so right? GOP is united using Trump's cult like following to maintain power. She is only supporting blue no matter who in order to combat that. Any other route and Trump stays in office. So I understand this decision from her. I doubt that she will be blindly supporting all of Biden's policy if he were to get in office though. Just because he is a Democrat. I am very sure she would to be openly critical of him.

Not voting isn't going to shut down the system or even hurt the elite. No matter how little the votes, the process will still be in place. AOC getting voted into office beating out Crowley did rattle cages amoung the Democratic party though. American Revolution, Civil War or Boston Tea party type of event isn't realistically going to happen in this day and age. It's not muskets vs muskets today with no internet & technology. The revolution would need to be people getting informed about politics and voting in the AOC types that fit their needs accross the US. Which is to happen every 2 years. And if AOC isn't holding her end of the bargin than she is up for re-election soon, and then again in 2 years after that. Only when politicians understand that their careers are acutally in jeopardy unless they represent the people will change happen. Big buisness is all over it, which is why their interst have always come first. The ramifications and accountability from the general public has been lacking.

But AOC showed that Crowley who was supposed to be next in line for Pelosi's seat can be beaten out. Even without the backing of big buisness or deeply rooted polictical connections. Guys like Lindsey Graham(64 yrs old, been in Senate since 2003) and Mitch McConnell(78 yrs old been in the Senate since 1984) are both up for reelection this yr. People of Kentucky and South Carolina have the opportunity to vote them out. Given the amount of power Mcconnell has wielded when holding or not holding President accountable for his actions. That is one area that should change. Should be maybe up to more than just Kentucky to decide that.

I understand and don't accept why she is doing what she is doing. I also didn't accept the choice between Trump and Hillary either. My point is those that succumb to the system using this type of rationalization are never going to be able to overcome the system. I don't buy she will be able to mount a viable challenge to Biden's policies - because a new enemy or crisis can invented at will, and the same fallacy of it's us against them can be presented at each vote. Is she going to vote to end the livelihood of coal miners or to save the environment? I think you guys see what I am saying? All our choices are from within he same corrupt system and presented as binary. No one is willing to do anything outside of that and when they do they get shutdown (Sanders, 2016).

I totally disagree about your second paragraph. Civil disobedience can and does happen in this day and age. We just don't have leaders to do it. You are already setting up arguments for why it would fail - which is defeatist mindset. Take climate change as an example - for years we are told we can't unplug from fossil fuel and they keep selling hummers. There has been zero leadership and a bunch of dog-whistle policy making with carbon trading and green energy. "Renewable energy" relies heavily on fossil fuels - from car battery manufacturing to blades for windmills, and most of these products cannot be recycled like solar panels. This is how our one party system reacts to crises. By creating more products to sell and more ways to profit from it. One 16 year old Swedish girl did more to bring the fight for real climate change through civil disobedience than all the climate change savvy leaders of our country put together, think about it. An autistic child kick started a global movement by sitting out classes holding up a handmade cardboard sign. Before any of that, how would you have responded if someone asked you whether that would work? XR (eXtinction Rebellion) in UK arranges mass civil disobedience acts to force the dialogue on climate change. THAT is how you make more and more people politically aware. If they can do it why can't we?

AOC was backing and still backs Bernie, but if Biden were to beat Bernie out. Backing Biden to form a united front against Trump is the logical choice from the Democratic side, and Bernie stated he would do the same. And while Sanders was cheated in 2016, it has been the general public who have deserted him at this stage of the election in 2020. Biden is beating out Bernie because the people who set out to vote are the ones who put climate change on the back burner. The youth vote, who care about the future didn't show out. The older generation who care less about the future and more about todays survival showed out. The majority of the general public has not made climate change the priority it has needed to be by flooding the elected officials over the yrs with people of this mind set. But they are to protest in the streets for this not being a top priority? Trump got in office while openly denouncing climate change because the people whose jobs depend on it didn't care about climate change for the future. But how to feed their families this moment. So for all the people who will protest to make awareness of these issues. There will be regular people who will also protest the opposite if its more beneficial for them to do so for the present.

You are wrong about the defeatest attitude. Your views on how to fight are just different, but at the end of the day the goals are still the same. Establishing ramifications and accountability for the decision making of the people in positions of power. Someone like AOC getting elected was a form of protest. Trump getting elected was a form a protest. These were both out of the box, cage rattling elections.

This is the part I fully agree with:

Your views on how to fight are just different, but at the end of the day the goals are still the same. Establishing ramifications and accountability for the decision making of the people in positions of power. Someone like AOC getting elected was a form of protest. Trump getting elected was a form a protest. These were both out of the box, cage rattling elections.

Trump was a non-system candidate elected in protest of Obama's betrayal of the people. AOC probably elected in response to Trump's betrayal - don't you see this is why it doesn't work? They'll always betray us because they have to play by the rules of the system that is corrupt and owned by oligarchs? And some of them like Trump are more corrupt than the system even if they don't play by any rules.

I honestly don't think Bernie is that much of a better choice at this point and I am not rooting for him (I did in 2016). I don't however buy this MSM talking point about youth not showing up to vote - the game is rigged in every possible way. In 2020 MSM has continuously questioned Bernie's feasibility as a candidate when he was beating everybody. Do you hear them question Biden's feasibility? This creepy dude that has been accused of sexually assaulting women? How much negative coverage is Creepy, gropy Joe getting? Compared to "socialist" Bernie? You are discounting the impact of the last primary on Bernie voters - who got the message that no matter what, he would be made to lose. Lots of people from Obama to Pelosi came out and said that as well in 2020 - we will make sure Dems are not represented by a socialist. Does that have possibly have something to do with why they are not coming out? Just saying.

But I am not interested in Bernie vs. Biden, you are right in that I am interested in a different way of approaching this. I want to see this oligarchy and this one party system brought to it's knees and replaced with something else, my preference would be democratic socialism. And to do that the perfect leader will come from outside the political system just like Greta did for environmental issues. And yes there will always opposition to anything - half of the country fought to preserve how slavery benefited them, since when has that been a reason to not overcome status quo? I don't what this will take, I can't read the future, but I can read the past and I do know it ain't voting.

If it is not the vote, that this is The Gun.
And Gun will replace the rigged system which "plays the rules of democracy" with totalitarian system which sets the rules as it wishes.
And guess who will be the people to set the rules? The same oligarchy only with no need to be answerable to anyone.
You can temporarily replace The Gun with the "Arab Spring" crowds but it leads to same thing at the end to save this crowds from killing each other and the whole civilization altogether.
The system we have is not cool and flawed but it is the best one human race invented so far.
What do you want from a bunch of wild carnivores just a little time out of the caves? Give the humans time man.
Of course there is a little Scandinavian utopia build on Oil and bunch of loners. Good luck to have this implemented anywhere else.

newyorknewyork wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

What you are asking for is, if I may paraphrase, "When will a tsunami sized 3rd party voting block appear that will instantly vote out all corporate interests". You asking the wrong question and only looking at one path with blinders on while negating the realistics of what is in front of you. Sure, going from Point A to Point B is a straight line but if the road is super curved and bends way out of the direct line, sometimes you gotta take it to get to where you want to go.

I guess that means you won't acknowledge that the last 50 years of voting them out didn't work?

Incremental gains? Incremental gains get wiped out the next voting cycle.

And the above bolded could not be more wrong. I have no hope or secret wish for a Bernie takeover or third party - they would get corrupted or castrated by the same corporate elite. I am more interested in rejecting paths that I know don't work and then seeing what's left. You on the other hand are clinging to a path, that leads to abject miserable failure over and over again. Look at AOC now supporting "blue no matter who" - so basically she is going to sheepdog her supporters into voting for that carcass of a spineless jellyfish that used to be our vice president. The system always wins. They system is rigged, the rules are made by the ones who own it - you can't beat them at their own game when you play by their rules (Ask Bernie Sanders circa 2016). It doesn't work that way.

While you make some good points. You understand why she is doing so right? GOP is united using Trump's cult like following to maintain power. She is only supporting blue no matter who in order to combat that. Any other route and Trump stays in office. So I understand this decision from her. I doubt that she will be blindly supporting all of Biden's policy if he were to get in office though. Just because he is a Democrat. I am very sure she would to be openly critical of him.

Not voting isn't going to shut down the system or even hurt the elite. No matter how little the votes, the process will still be in place. AOC getting voted into office beating out Crowley did rattle cages amoung the Democratic party though. American Revolution, Civil War or Boston Tea party type of event isn't realistically going to happen in this day and age. It's not muskets vs muskets today with no internet & technology. The revolution would need to be people getting informed about politics and voting in the AOC types that fit their needs accross the US. Which is to happen every 2 years. And if AOC isn't holding her end of the bargin than she is up for re-election soon, and then again in 2 years after that. Only when politicians understand that their careers are acutally in jeopardy unless they represent the people will change happen. Big buisness is all over it, which is why their interst have always come first. The ramifications and accountability from the general public has been lacking.

But AOC showed that Crowley who was supposed to be next in line for Pelosi's seat can be beaten out. Even without the backing of big buisness or deeply rooted polictical connections. Guys like Lindsey Graham(64 yrs old, been in Senate since 2003) and Mitch McConnell(78 yrs old been in the Senate since 1984) are both up for reelection this yr. People of Kentucky and South Carolina have the opportunity to vote them out. Given the amount of power Mcconnell has wielded when holding or not holding President accountable for his actions. That is one area that should change. Should be maybe up to more than just Kentucky to decide that.

I understand and don't accept why she is doing what she is doing. I also didn't accept the choice between Trump and Hillary either. My point is those that succumb to the system using this type of rationalization are never going to be able to overcome the system. I don't buy she will be able to mount a viable challenge to Biden's policies - because a new enemy or crisis can invented at will, and the same fallacy of it's us against them can be presented at each vote. Is she going to vote to end the livelihood of coal miners or to save the environment? I think you guys see what I am saying? All our choices are from within he same corrupt system and presented as binary. No one is willing to do anything outside of that and when they do they get shutdown (Sanders, 2016).

I totally disagree about your second paragraph. Civil disobedience can and does happen in this day and age. We just don't have leaders to do it. You are already setting up arguments for why it would fail - which is defeatist mindset. Take climate change as an example - for years we are told we can't unplug from fossil fuel and they keep selling hummers. There has been zero leadership and a bunch of dog-whistle policy making with carbon trading and green energy. "Renewable energy" relies heavily on fossil fuels - from car battery manufacturing to blades for windmills, and most of these products cannot be recycled like solar panels. This is how our one party system reacts to crises. By creating more products to sell and more ways to profit from it. One 16 year old Swedish girl did more to bring the fight for real climate change through civil disobedience than all the climate change savvy leaders of our country put together, think about it. An autistic child kick started a global movement by sitting out classes holding up a handmade cardboard sign. Before any of that, how would you have responded if someone asked you whether that would work? XR (eXtinction Rebellion) in UK arranges mass civil disobedience acts to force the dialogue on climate change. THAT is how you make more and more people politically aware. If they can do it why can't we?

AOC was backing and still backs Bernie, but if Biden were to beat Bernie out. Backing Biden to form a united front against Trump is the logical choice from the Democratic side, and Bernie stated he would do the same. And while Sanders was cheated in 2016, it has been the general public who have deserted him at this stage of the election in 2020. Biden is beating out Bernie because the people who set out to vote are the ones who put climate change on the back burner. The youth vote, who care about the future didn't show out. The older generation who care less about the future and more about todays survival showed out. The majority of the general public has not made climate change the priority it has needed to be by flooding the elected officials over the yrs with people of this mind set. But they are to protest in the streets for this not being a top priority? Trump got in office while openly denouncing climate change because the people whose jobs depend on it didn't care about climate change for the future. But how to feed their families this moment. So for all the people who will protest to make awareness of these issues. There will be regular people who will also protest the opposite if its more beneficial for them to do so for the present.

You are wrong about the defeatest attitude. Your views on how to fight are just different, but at the end of the day the goals are still the same. Establishing ramifications and accountability for the decision making of the people in positions of power. Someone like AOC getting elected was a form of protest. Trump getting elected was a form a protest. These were both out of the box, cage rattling elections.

This is the part I fully agree with:

Your views on how to fight are just different, but at the end of the day the goals are still the same. Establishing ramifications and accountability for the decision making of the people in positions of power. Someone like AOC getting elected was a form of protest. Trump getting elected was a form a protest. These were both out of the box, cage rattling elections.

Trump was a non-system candidate elected in protest of Obama's betrayal of the people. AOC probably elected in response to Trump's betrayal - don't you see this is why it doesn't work? They'll always betray us because they have to play by the rules of the system that is corrupt and owned by oligarchs? And some of them like Trump are more corrupt than the system even if they don't play by any rules.

I honestly don't think Bernie is that much of a better choice at this point and I am not rooting for him (I did in 2016). I don't however buy this MSM talking point about youth not showing up to vote - the game is rigged in every possible way. In 2020 MSM has continuously questioned Bernie's feasibility as a candidate when he was beating everybody. Do you hear them question Biden's feasibility? This creepy dude that has been accused of sexually assaulting women? How much negative coverage is Creepy, gropy Joe getting? Compared to "socialist" Bernie? You are discounting the impact of the last primary on Bernie voters - who got the message that no matter what, he would be made to lose. Lots of people from Obama to Pelosi came out and said that as well in 2020 - we will make sure Dems are not represented by a socialist. Does that have possibly have something to do with why they are not coming out? Just saying.

But I am not interested in Bernie vs. Biden, you are right in that I am interested in a different way of approaching this. I want to see this oligarchy and this one party system brought to it's knees and replaced with something else, my preference would be democratic socialism. And to do that the perfect leader will come from outside the political system just like Greta did for environmental issues. And yes there will always opposition to anything - half of the country fought to preserve how slavery benefited them, since when has that been a reason to not overcome status quo? I don't what this will take, I can't read the future, but I can read the past and I do know it ain't voting.

If the same efforts you desire through protest and civil war were actually put towards voting than it would effect government. But there just hasn't been that level of consistent effort at the ballot election after election. Or follow up on policies passed by the elected officials once in office, or accountability towards those policies. Big business though is on it for every single step. Not just for Presidents, but all branches required to be elected. Which is why Congress men and women comfortably stay in office for 30+ yrs while advancing their own self interest. 55.7% of voting age population actually voted in 2016 Presidential election though. Or 44.3% of the voting age population didn't vote. And other than Obama's first yr(08) which 58.2% actually voted. From the 70s until now 49%-55% have been the common turn out. I was speaking with a co-worker who is in his 60s. Says he never voted a day in his life. My younger brother 26 only voted once for Obama in 08. Close to 50% of the population haven't been giving themselves a real voice on issues for 44 years(1972-2016).

In the 2018 mid terms which AOC, Sharice Davids, Rashida Tlaib, Ilhan Omar, Deb Haaland were elected.

Voter turnout went up more in some groups than others from 2014 to 2018:

-Among 18 to 29-year-olds, voter turnout went from 20 percent in 2014 to 36 percent in 2018, the largest percentage point increase for any age group — a 79 percent jump.
-Among men and women, voter turnout increased by 11 and 12 percentage points respectively.
-Voter turnout increased among non-Hispanic Asians by 13 percentage points, a 49 percent increase.
-Among Hispanics, voter turnout increased by 13 percentage points, a 50 percent increase in Hispanic voter turnout.
-Non-Hispanic black voter turnout increased by 11 percentage points.
-Those with higher levels of education had higher levels of voter turnout in 2018. Those with less than a high school education had the smallest increase in voter turnout (5 ---
percentage points). Those with a high school diploma or equivalent had the second-lowest increase (8 percentage points).
-Voting by native-born and naturalized citizens both increased by 12 percentage points. This increase is not significantly different between native-born and naturalized citizens.
-Unlike the 2014 midterm election, voter turnout among those living in nonmetropolitan areas (up 8 points) was lower than for those living in metropolitan areas (up 12 points).

I am not following - how does voter turn out help beat the system? ALL the candidates take corporate sponsorship to run for office (OK maybe its 98.7% instead of 100%). You can have 100% voter turnout but you are still choosing best loser (least sociopathic) from the system approved choices. And whatever that choice is they are still going to create laws benefiting corporate elites. You are up against the nexus of corporations, politicians and MSM working with the shared interest of maintaining status quo.

True non-system candidates would have to fight corporate money, DNC power politics, other non system candidates and the MSM propaganda machine to have a ghost of a chance of winning the nomination for any race at any level, right? And that's before they even fight the actual election against the "other" party. Supposing all that was magically possible, how many total non system candidates would make it through those filters to state and national governments? 3-5% if we are really lucky? Then what? Are you sure this is the easier way to accomplish a system overhaul? Just do the math it won't/can't happen in a thousand years.

How many people you turn out to vote matters, what they have been constantly brainwashed with matters a lot more. Have you read Manufacturing Consent by Chomsky? If not please give it a try and also Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein.

Here's an animation that covers the salient features of Chomsky's central message in that book

martin wrote:Name one country in the world in the last couple of hundred years that mirrors what you are looking for so we can study it and see how it operates and how it came to be.

The thing that came closest is the form of capitalism originally advocated by John Maynard Keynes. Keynes understood that for capitalism to work you would required solid social safety nets - universal income, education and healthcare. This was only partially implemented giving birth to social security and medicare and rather badly botched at the source. Again because it had to be constructed via compromise with those who would fight it at every step. In US history it's know as the "new deal" which literally saved capitalism from it's demise and ushered in what is known as the golden age of capitalism early 60s thru mid 70s. Even the badly executed version was able to engender the creation of a solid and vibrant middle class. All western democracies adopted this but then most of them got corrupted by the advent of militarized plunder known as neoliberalism. That was championed by Milton Friedman and the Chicago school of Economics. Only a few countries still have remnants of the new deal system - like Sweden.

Understand, that I am not asking for another new deal, I could see myself supporting the real thing proposed by Keynes. And no I have no love for capitalism, but the data shows it can work and it did for a period of time, right here in the US.

Nalod wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

martin wrote:Name one country in the world in the last couple of hundred years that mirrors what you are looking for so we can study it and see how it operates and how it came to be.

The thing that came closest is the form of capitalism originally advocated by John Maynard Keynes. Keynes understood that for capitalism to work you would required solid social safety nets - universal income, education and healthcare. This was only partially implemented giving birth to social security and medicare and rather badly botched at the source. Again because it had to be constructed via compromise with those who would fight it at every step. In US history it's know as the "new deal" which literally saved capitalism from it's demise and ushered in what is known as the golden age of capitalism early 60s thru mid 70s. Even the badly executed version was able to engender the creation of a solid and vibrant middle class. All western democracies adopted this but then most of them got corrupted by the advent of militarized plunder known as neoliberalism. That was championed by Milton Friedman and the Chicago school of Economics. Only a few countries still have remnants of the new deal system - like Sweden.

Understand, that I am not asking for another new deal, I could see myself supporting the real thing proposed by Keynes. And no I have no love for capitalism, but the data shows it can work and it did for a period of time, right here in the US.

I admire your enthusiasm. Perhaps when I was younger I would have thought similar. I studied economics and ideals that are unfortunately not implemented for a host of reasons. I could drone on and on about why these ideals don’t as they do in the small Nordic region of Northern Europe. In fact, I prefer you keep pushing it forward. One day this system might burst at the scenes and we’ll need you to promote.
We are a fearful nation which I fear leads us to tilt more to a nationalist right movement and the ugly underbelly that comes with it.

This isn't enthusiasm, it's my philosophy. I am not a supporter of any type of capitalism but I think this is the form of governance/economic system most likely to work here.
I do think Neoliberal dogma is pervasive in our schools/colleges and that is what they teach us - Certain ideals are not possible in the US, Capitalism is a free market system, the actors are always acting in rational self interest, the market always auto-corrects inefficiencies blah blah blah. About 85% of our population has been farm raised on this propaganda- kind of he point of the animation I posted above. Your droning on would be welcome conversation - please do so, by all means.

Nalod wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Nalod wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

martin wrote:Name one country in the world in the last couple of hundred years that mirrors what you are looking for so we can study it and see how it operates and how it came to be.

The thing that came closest is the form of capitalism originally advocated by John Maynard Keynes. Keynes understood that for capitalism to work you would required solid social safety nets - universal income, education and healthcare. This was only partially implemented giving birth to social security and medicare and rather badly botched at the source. Again because it had to be constructed via compromise with those who would fight it at every step. In US history it's know as the "new deal" which literally saved capitalism from it's demise and ushered in what is known as the golden age of capitalism early 60s thru mid 70s. Even the badly executed version was able to engender the creation of a solid and vibrant middle class. All western democracies adopted this but then most of them got corrupted by the advent of militarized plunder known as neoliberalism. That was championed by Milton Friedman and the Chicago school of Economics. Only a few countries still have remnants of the new deal system - like Sweden.

Understand, that I am not asking for another new deal, I could see myself supporting the real thing proposed by Keynes. And no I have no love for capitalism, but the data shows it can work and it did for a period of time, right here in the US.

I admire your enthusiasm. Perhaps when I was younger I would have thought similar. I studied economics and ideals that are unfortunately not implemented for a host of reasons. I could drone on and on about why these ideals don’t as they do in the small Nordic region of Northern Europe. In fact, I prefer you keep pushing it forward. One day this system might burst at the scenes and we’ll need you to promote.
We are a fearful nation which I fear leads us to tilt more to a nationalist right movement and the ugly underbelly that comes with it.

This isn't enthusiasm, it's my philosophy. I am not a supporter of any type of capitalism but I think this is the form of governance/economic system most likely to work here.
I do think Neoliberal dogma is pervasive in our schools/colleges and that is what they teach us - Certain ideals are not possible in the US, Capitalism is a free market system, the actors are always acting in rational self interest, the market always auto-corrects inefficiencies blah blah blah. About 85% of our population has been farm raised on this propaganda- kind of he point of the animation I posted above. Your droning on would be welcome conversation - please do so, by all means.

How old are you? not being snarky, it matters.
"I admire your enthusiasm for your Philosphy"..........Is that better?

I am a year from being 50, how about you? I am a lot more enthusiastic about my actual political positions, this falls into the half-hearted support categories. I think it will work, but it's still capitalism.