My point is this is new territory for knick fans after years of negligence. WE don’t know how to react.
Today was have guys wanting to label our 21 year olds as “Busts”. Clearly not every pick or attempt will work but some will surprise and others will disappoint.

Losing sucks.

Nalod wrote:Good take how this kid rose from 2016 pick to ascend to All star starter!
We see the end result but If DJ can tell us how many guys did they burn thru to get a few to stick.
They are doing a great job developing players. They have been at it a while now, so its not new.
My point is as I have mentioned over the years you need luck but thats born thru “opportunities”. Some players in the Raptors system have been traded or cut. How many did it take to get the good ones?
When was patience applied? How did fans react in the years they fell short and frustrated?

My point is this is new territory for knick fans after years of negligence. WE don’t know how to react.
Today was have guys wanting to label our 21 year olds as “Busts”. Clearly not every pick or attempt will work but some will surprise and others will disappoint.

Losing sucks.

djsunyc wrote:

Nalod wrote:Good take how this kid rose from 2016 pick to ascend to All star starter!
We see the end result but If DJ can tell us how many guys did they burn thru to get a few to stick.
They are doing a great job developing players. They have been at it a while now, so its not new.
My point is as I have mentioned over the years you need luck but thats born thru “opportunities”. Some players in the Raptors system have been traded or cut. How many did it take to get the good ones?
When was patience applied? How did fans react in the years they fell short and frustrated?

My point is this is new territory for knick fans after years of negligence. WE don’t know how to react.
Today was have guys wanting to label our 21 year olds as “Busts”. Clearly not every pick or attempt will work but some will surprise and others will disappoint.

Losing sucks.

his first draft (2014)? bruno caboclo, deandre daniels, xavier thomas. none of them stuck or made it. after that? drafted quality players and signed undrafted guys at almost an unprecedented success rate.

jakob poeltl - bargnani pick at 9. traded in package for kawhi. but is a top defensive center.
siakam was drafted in the late 20's.
delon wright - picked in the 20's.
norman powell - 2nd round.
fred van vleet - undrafted.
chris boucher - undrafted - d-league mvp.
og - picked in the 20's.
next up is terance davis - undrafted who has already shown flashes and is the 2nd best advanced stat rookie after nunn in miami.

all of those guys shows promise no later than their 2nd season and many of them, right away. so it's not really fair to use the raptors as an example b/c they are basically the top of the heap.

the issue with you guys is flubbing the lotto picks and their development. it's a different animal drafting in the top 10 than it is in the 20's or 2nd round.

hollinger and duncan have a podcast. hollinger (former front office guy for grizz) said the main difference between teams w/ money and teams that don't have the funds is more in terms of scouting. they can spend millions sending guys all over the place to scout any time they want where as other teams are limited to only huge workouts.

knicks either are not allocating the proper resources to scouting or they are making the wrong decisions.

i understand the idea of patience...but it's not just patience. you know if a guy has skills within 2 years and you know what the player ultimately can be by year 3. 9 times out of 10 that's the case. siakam, in his 3rd year, was the 2nd best player on a championship team. his rookie year he started right away...then he wasnt performing and got sent down to the g-league where he became g-league finals mvp.

i don't have any clue what the knicks are doing. vs. the raptors all i saw were vets playing the majority of the mins with the majority of the plays. the younger players were sprinkled in with nominal mins and nothing of note. no plays for them. none of them feature. no signs of running anything to develop them. which is the antithesis of the raptors.

all of those players i listed above went through the g-league 905 team to develop. only terance davis hasn't and he's already shown that he could potentially be a major cog within 2 years. knicks should send frank + knox + mitch down to the g-league, sign a vet pg to run that team and develop them. at this level, they are not getting any better.

Knicks never had any continuity in the franchise for 20+ years.
The process of building NBA team and Raptors are no exception is no less that 5 years and even this speed required a lot of luck.
If we assume the current FO is given the task to build the team they are only in 2nd year and have no luck whatsoever.
Just misfortune with KP left because of previous regime blunders.
In this short span they drafted Knox, Mitch, and RJ.
I do not think this a bad result. I would argue it is great result.
I am not sure Perry will be given another 3 years of building through the draft but before that I will reserve my judgment.

DJ, are the guys Masai drafting and doing well guys that came out too early age/development wise? Or 21-22 year olds who showed well in their senior years? Good scouting requires a formula and a discipline to stick with it knowing the odds are not all will prevail. I’m curious do they have an obvious formula?
This is true with stock picking and online dating!
MY point is if knicks are drafting immature blue chip players the same metric to measure is not applicable to mature 2nd round guys.
Not that ever pick has to be the same demographic regarding age and pedigree.
In my mind an older player like Dotson and Trier would have a different trajectory than the young’ is. They should be physically able to handle the NBA but obviously they lack something that drove down their value. Dotson would do well to be on a better team if he can crack the rotation and earn at least one decent contract to set him up. Same might be true for Trier. Neither has much trade value and the league is full of tweeners. I would not say if we let them walk they were failures. Its the law of averages.
Toronto has been adding to core that included Valachunas, Lowery and Derozen and of course has evolved. That very much helps. We don’t have that core.
Knicks1248 brings a good point about developing without vets and to some degree that was addressed this past off season. Even with Fiz we are on track to win more than last year. Its progress but not nearly enough I do understand.
Fans on losing teams are like kids wanting to know “when are we going to get there, what’s for dinner, what are we doing tomorrow”.....”When are our youth gonna rise up? Who is gonna coach next year? Who is our new FO gonna be.....???
Knox we learned was injured most of the summer and its not just that Fiz messed his head up. He came in with an stronger upper body and like any kid growing he might have lot his rhythm a bit. WIth Morris now firmly in his path as is RJ he is pressing perhaps too much?

We can go round and Round on this all day with the question being in 2.5 years do the Knicks stay on a course that logically might make sense or change and “try” something different? If you can’t see it then its hard to endorse.
Nalod understands he puts too much faith in his team as I am rooting for the success. I’m overly patient. Its why I ask about Toronto because all of a sudden its a treasure trove of players are coming out of the system and its the hot thing to us. No two teams can replicate its successes and perhaps its not about “Mills” but the player development guys that are driving our future. MIller was promoted and then given the head coach gig. My hope is we give him some time. He has elevated the coaching and the play since he took over. He has RJ playing better and better week by week. He has Mitch in a good role. Inconsistent but look at where he came from. Frank is trying to dunk in traffic on 7 footers. Thats funny as shyt! The puppy is learning to bark!! LOL There is no room for Trier or Iggy at the moment. I torn on Keeping Morris. He is banged up but he looked lethargic against the Raptors on Defense at times and seemingly teams are playing him tighter forcing him to more difficult shots. He is hitting them but it’s laborious. If so, end of game fatigue makes for sloppy closing. We are losing close games in the last two minutes. That also progress at the same time. We don’t have closer talent except for 19 year old RJ. None of our PG’s can hit from the outside.
A big name coach is desirable but who is it? Mark Jax has not coached in years. MIller was an “Insider” which is fine unless we need a fresh take. Is that what this team needs? I regret not having Monty Williams but who knows if he even wanted any part of how we treat our coaches historically. Lord knows the man has been thru enough! Bud came and went and no he is showing his elite status.
For now I’ll root for Miller hope that his work ethic attention to detail continues to elevate while we slowly build until a trade presents itself that makes sense.

knicks1248 wrote:The knicks have too many young guys, and you don't develop like that, They haven't resign any draft pick they drafted since CHARLIE WARD in 1997/98, Thats over 20 yrs ago.

You think Giving Guys extend garbage mins in a lost season is developing, how did that work out for Mitch last season, or frank the season before.

You think allowing mitch, knox and frank to play through stupid mistakes in 18 straight losses was good development?

I think Knicks have very little young guys...
Knox, Barret, Mitch, and Frank. This is core candidates and not all of them will make it.
The rest including Dot are vets already. Trier is garbage.
They get OK minutes depending of how much they can handle.
It works very well for all of them.
And resulting outlook should be based on what the result after 4-5 years of NBA development not what each and every year is about.

Nalod wrote:

KnickDanger wrote:I think regardless of what players like Frank, Knox, Mitch, RJ even, et al, could've, should've been/are/could be, this article spotlights what is the major problem for the Knicks to my mind. Scouting and player development. Where does one leave off and the other pick up I don't know, but history is clear enough. No long term homegrown Knicks starters, much less stars, since...forever....

Im hopeful just becuase it has not happend in a long time, does not mean it cannot. First step is a genuine effort in the right direction before apprent results.

I've seen articles where opposing organizations have said Knicks scouting is top notch. At the end of the day, we have no idea what goes on behind closed doors. Scouts could hype one player behind closed doors and the coach/FO can become enamored with another player because he won a one on one game during a workout. Take the Redskins for instance. The coaching staff/scouting department didn't have Haskins ranked that high, but the owner was enamored with him. Now, we got the KP pick right and we've gotten some decent undrafted, second round guys. I think we also did OK with the RJ pick. Now look at where Knox and Frank were drafter and you see that area of the lottery seems to have a much lower success rate. I think teams in general seem to get a bit more speculative when they draft in that area. Don't know why, I'm sure some draft expert could go into it more clearly. Also, age. These guys were young when they came in and weren't physical freaks. Zion doesn't know how to really play yet, but hebtowers over the competition physically and athletically. Knox and Frank looked like teenagers when they came in.

djsunyc wrote:

Nalod wrote:Good take how this kid rose from 2016 pick to ascend to All star starter!
We see the end result but If DJ can tell us how many guys did they burn thru to get a few to stick.
They are doing a great job developing players. They have been at it a while now, so its not new.
My point is as I have mentioned over the years you need luck but thats born thru “opportunities”. Some players in the Raptors system have been traded or cut. How many did it take to get the good ones?
When was patience applied? How did fans react in the years they fell short and frustrated?

My point is this is new territory for knick fans after years of negligence. WE don’t know how to react.
Today was have guys wanting to label our 21 year olds as “Busts”. Clearly not every pick or attempt will work but some will surprise and others will disappoint.

Losing sucks.

his first draft (2014)? bruno caboclo, deandre daniels, xavier thomas. none of them stuck or made it. after that? drafted quality players and signed undrafted guys at almost an unprecedented success rate.

jakob poeltl - bargnani pick at 9. traded in package for kawhi. but is a top defensive center.
siakam was drafted in the late 20's.
delon wright - picked in the 20's.
norman powell - 2nd round.
fred van vleet - undrafted.
chris boucher - undrafted - d-league mvp.
og - picked in the 20's.
next up is terance davis - undrafted who has already shown flashes and is the 2nd best advanced stat rookie after nunn in miami.

all of those guys shows promise no later than their 2nd season and many of them, right away. so it's not really fair to use the raptors as an example b/c they are basically the top of the heap.

the issue with you guys is flubbing the lotto picks and their development. it's a different animal drafting in the top 10 than it is in the 20's or 2nd round.

hollinger and duncan have a podcast. hollinger (former front office guy for grizz) said the main difference between teams w/ money and teams that don't have the funds is more in terms of scouting. they can spend millions sending guys all over the place to scout any time they want where as other teams are limited to only huge workouts.

knicks either are not allocating the proper resources to scouting or they are making the wrong decisions.

i understand the idea of patience...but it's not just patience. you know if a guy has skills within 2 years and you know what the player ultimately can be by year 3. 9 times out of 10 that's the case. siakam, in his 3rd year, was the 2nd best player on a championship team. his rookie year he started right away...then he wasnt performing and got sent down to the g-league where he became g-league finals mvp.

i don't have any clue what the knicks are doing. vs. the raptors all i saw were vets playing the majority of the mins with the majority of the plays. the younger players were sprinkled in with nominal mins and nothing of note. no plays for them. none of them feature. no signs of running anything to develop them. which is the antithesis of the raptors.

all of those players i listed above went through the g-league 905 team to develop. only terance davis hasn't and he's already shown that he could potentially be a major cog within 2 years. knicks should send frank + knox + mitch down to the g-league, sign a vet pg to run that team and develop them. at this level, they are not getting any better.

Perfection...

Wanna do my podcast DJ?

Nalod wrote:All good points.

DJ, are the guys Masai drafting and doing well guys that came out too early age/development wise? Or 21-22 year olds who showed well in their senior years? Good scouting requires a formula and a discipline to stick with it knowing the odds are not all will prevail. I’m curious do they have an obvious formula?
This is true with stock picking and online dating!
MY point is if knicks are drafting immature blue chip players the same metric to measure is not applicable to mature 2nd round guys.
Not that ever pick has to be the same demographic regarding age and pedigree.
In my mind an older player like Dotson and Trier would have a different trajectory than the young’ is. They should be physically able to handle the NBA but obviously they lack something that drove down their value. Dotson would do well to be on a better team if he can crack the rotation and earn at least one decent contract to set him up. Same might be true for Trier. Neither has much trade value and the league is full of tweeners. I would not say if we let them walk they were failures. Its the law of averages.
Toronto has been adding to core that included Valachunas, Lowery and Derozen and of course has evolved. That very much helps. We don’t have that core.
Knicks1248 brings a good point about developing without vets and to some degree that was addressed this past off season. Even with Fiz we are on track to win more than last year. Its progress but not nearly enough I do understand.
Fans on losing teams are like kids wanting to know “when are we going to get there, what’s for dinner, what are we doing tomorrow”.....”When are our youth gonna rise up? Who is gonna coach next year? Who is our new FO gonna be.....???
Knox we learned was injured most of the summer and its not just that Fiz messed his head up. He came in with an stronger upper body and like any kid growing he might have lot his rhythm a bit. WIth Morris now firmly in his path as is RJ he is pressing perhaps too much?

We can go round and Round on this all day with the question being in 2.5 years do the Knicks stay on a course that logically might make sense or change and “try” something different? If you can’t see it then its hard to endorse.
Nalod understands he puts too much faith in his team as I am rooting for the success. I’m overly patient. Its why I ask about Toronto because all of a sudden its a treasure trove of players are coming out of the system and its the hot thing to us. No two teams can replicate its successes and perhaps its not about “Mills” but the player development guys that are driving our future. MIller was promoted and then given the head coach gig. My hope is we give him some time. He has elevated the coaching and the play since he took over. He has RJ playing better and better week by week. He has Mitch in a good role. Inconsistent but look at where he came from. Frank is trying to dunk in traffic on 7 footers. Thats funny as shyt! The puppy is learning to bark!! LOL There is no room for Trier or Iggy at the moment. I torn on Keeping Morris. He is banged up but he looked lethargic against the Raptors on Defense at times and seemingly teams are playing him tighter forcing him to more difficult shots. He is hitting them but it’s laborious. If so, end of game fatigue makes for sloppy closing. We are losing close games in the last two minutes. That also progress at the same time. We don’t have closer talent except for 19 year old RJ. None of our PG’s can hit from the outside.
A big name coach is desirable but who is it? Mark Jax has not coached in years. MIller was an “Insider” which is fine unless we need a fresh take. Is that what this team needs? I regret not having Monty Williams but who knows if he even wanted any part of how we treat our coaches historically. Lord knows the man has been thru enough! Bud came and went and no he is showing his elite status.
For now I’ll root for Miller hope that his work ethic attention to detail continues to elevate while we slowly build until a trade presents itself that makes sense.

i think the issue here is that regardless of who was drafted, unless they were a sure fire blue chipper ( like with the knicks and kp), then performing well and showing flashes of brilliance will not happen without a true blue talent development plan in place.

raptors drafted guys that play both ends of the floor and have a high motor - guys that simply just want it. and guys in the 2nd round/undrafted have stuff to prove so they have added incentive. but the success rate of where some of these players are drafted are less than 5% - that's why it's about organizational development.

knox, robinson, frank - i'm sorry but none of them are blue chippers so using that term doesn't apply to the knicks example. blue chippers means in year 1 (and no later than year 2), you see how these guys can demand 25-30 mins a night on alot of teams.

my belief is that the most important position for development is the point guard. without a true blue point guard, you will not have the player on the court to help develop these guys in real time after the jump ball. coaching plays a huge part here also but w/o the point guard, i don't think you are going to get the most out of guys that are not blue chippers.

and when i discuss development - i don't mean getting to the chip - i'm talking about getting to that 50 win level year in and year out. maybe even advance a round or two. that, to me, is a realistic goal for alot of franchises if they make the right choices.

knox - he has no motor. combine that without any offensive structure and a point guard to get him going and you see zero development.

robinson is nothing more than a freak athlete with zero basketball instincts or skill. he gets by purely on his insane athleticism but doesn't know how to play basketball. he should be in the g-league for at least a year.

frank is a point guard, but is inability to look for any offense just makes him a flat out bad pick.

there's no magic formula to drafting. you have to evaluate talent and see if they can play. and see if they want it. but if they're not some super star like luka, then you need to have a team with a legit point guard that can lead on the court and help with development. but that's just my opinion and i don't think it's right in all cases but it's how i view it.

that's why i think for you guys, i would do whatever it takes to get chris paul - he's a culture changer and an on court leader. look at what he's doing in okc who's roster isn't that good. or in free agency, offer the max to van vleet. turning down the lowry trade was the biggest fork in the road for both franchises.

it's mind boggling that the knicks went the exact opposite route and brought in no point guards and signed nothing but hired guns looking for their next big pay day.

arkrud wrote:All 3 youngsters you mentioned are projects. End of lottery picks in teens and late 2nd rounder without organized bbal experience.
They were picked for upside. It's a gamble which works if team pick in volumes.
There is not enough of a team to use CP3. He will work with the same vets we have to make this team 50% and it will be zero development.
You are advocating for the things Knicks will be able to do in 2-3 years. We need to draft another 6-8 players to get into probability ranges to get some actual result.
Si chill out. This process is just started.

cp3 would've brought robinson along much further running pnr's like he did with deandre jordan.

he also would've drove and kicked out to wide open kevin knox on the wing (similar to the clippers with shamet). those two players are just out there running some rudderless sets for their free agent to be's to jack it up.

you could play the numbers game too - but i don't necessarily think the knicks brass are making the right talent selections regardless but that's another discussion altogether. this is no different than buying 20 lotto tickets on friday instead of 3 thinking you have a better chance to win the millions. you're still gonna lose regardless.