franco12 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

franco12 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:In case we decide not to go for a pg in the draft:

1. Fred VanVleet - Unrestricted - Toronto Raptors:

VanVleet was a crucial contributor in the Raptors run to a ring during the 2019 postseason, averaging 14.9 points on 49% shooting over Toronto's final eight playoff games. He's continued his astonishing upward trajectory this season, his first as a full-time starter. Through 45 games in 2019-20, VanVleet is averaging 18.0 points, 6.8 assists, 3.7 rebounds and 1.9 steals. He's one of only six players in the NBA this season averaging at least 18 points and more than 6.5 dimes and 2.5 made triples. The other five are James Harden, Damian Lillard, Luka Doncic, Kyle Lowry and Trae Young. The Raptors would obviously like to re-sign VanVleet, but they will have plenty of competition for the premier point guard on the open market. FVV could very well command a contract worth north of $100 million.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/02/21/2020-nba-free-agency-preview-ranking-the-top-point-guards-from-fred-vanvleet-to-kris-dunn/#4c6742e17604

Other options are pretty bad, unless you take on an overpaid stop gap like Conley

I've been one to lobby for Fred VanVleet, to max him out.

I did not realize he would be getting a contract worth $100M! I guess I'd rather that than similar but shorter big money to a player like Dragic at 34.

Maybe Chris Paul and his $80M for 2 years isn't so bad?

I'm not sure about him, but I'd feel better about drafting Haliburton (play him SG) if we were signing VanVleet (why have I thought it was Van Fleet all this time?!). Also signing VanVleet allows you to take a good look at Okoro and Okongwu with our first rounder.

I guess the only reason not to max VanVleet this summer is you want to keep cap room for 2021 and perhaps taking a run at Giannis Antetokounmpo. But it seems like we could add both- of course, the assumption is getting any of them to sign, otherwise we simply end up with Taj Gibson and Bobby Portis again.

Even if I knew we'd be adding VanVleet, I still take BPA available in the draft, even if it is a PG.

Honestly, give up the 2021 dreams, why would Antetokoumpo sign with us? Look at the free agents in 2021, which ones are unrestricted and would likely sign with us? I'd rather spend the money on a piece like Van Vleet or some shooters than keep 2 max spots free for free agents that aren't going to sign next year and have a repeat of all the LOL knick stories of this past offseason.

23pts 52% shooting from 3 on 8.2 attempts per game. 4.5 ft attempts per game. 685 TS%, 211 WS/48.

Could be a sniper that fits well with Barrett.

smackeddog wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

smackeddog wrote:I think the Twolves will target Tyrese Haliburton, would be a nice fit next to D-lo. His tankathon sheet is ridiculous (compare it to all the other pg options)

http://www.tankathon.com/players/tyrese-haliburton

Think Wolves will take a PF. Either Tobin or Okongwu. To me Haliburton is stiff and does not show any ability to be able to separate at the NBA level. Feel this years draft is looking like Lamelo, Wiseman, and Edwards are the only true lottery picks. Unfortunately for us, they will be going top 3.

Not a fan of Cole Anthony, Hayes, Hampton in terms of PG's. Cole does not have the size or NBA quickness.
Like Okongwu but do not think he will fall to us at 5 or 6. Like Okangu's motor and strength. Good back up for Randle and can be a piece to build on. But again, think he will be gone.

Feel it may be a good year to trade down or use pick as an asset to get a solid young NBA player.
If we trade down, like the kid from Nova, Bey. Has an NBA body and can shoot. May not be a bad idea to think about another SF in case Knox does not pan out. Like Maledon as a low 1st round PG pick. Has upside, 19 and athletic.

What do you make of Okoro? Seems to have shot up the mock drafts lately

Really athletic. Bit small for SF but can finish around the rim. He is young athletic slasher. Can't shoot very well though. Think in the NBA you have too many of those guys that failed because they could not shoot the ball. He also does not have much of a handle so forget about moving him to the SG. This is going to be a tough draft. Still hoping the Knicks use the picks to get someone already proven.

HofstraBBall wrote:

franco12 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

franco12 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:In case we decide not to go for a pg in the draft:

1. Fred VanVleet - Unrestricted - Toronto Raptors:

VanVleet was a crucial contributor in the Raptors run to a ring during the 2019 postseason, averaging 14.9 points on 49% shooting over Toronto's final eight playoff games. He's continued his astonishing upward trajectory this season, his first as a full-time starter. Through 45 games in 2019-20, VanVleet is averaging 18.0 points, 6.8 assists, 3.7 rebounds and 1.9 steals. He's one of only six players in the NBA this season averaging at least 18 points and more than 6.5 dimes and 2.5 made triples. The other five are James Harden, Damian Lillard, Luka Doncic, Kyle Lowry and Trae Young. The Raptors would obviously like to re-sign VanVleet, but they will have plenty of competition for the premier point guard on the open market. FVV could very well command a contract worth north of $100 million.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/02/21/2020-nba-free-agency-preview-ranking-the-top-point-guards-from-fred-vanvleet-to-kris-dunn/#4c6742e17604

Other options are pretty bad, unless you take on an overpaid stop gap like Conley

I've been one to lobby for Fred VanVleet, to max him out.

I did not realize he would be getting a contract worth $100M! I guess I'd rather that than similar but shorter big money to a player like Dragic at 34.

Maybe Chris Paul and his $80M for 2 years isn't so bad?

I'm not sure about him, but I'd feel better about drafting Haliburton (play him SG) if we were signing VanVleet (why have I thought it was Van Fleet all this time?!). Also signing VanVleet allows you to take a good look at Okoro and Okongwu with our first rounder.

I guess the only reason not to max VanVleet this summer is you want to keep cap room for 2021 and perhaps taking a run at Giannis Antetokounmpo. But it seems like we could add both- of course, the assumption is getting any of them to sign, otherwise we simply end up with Taj Gibson and Bobby Portis again.

Even if I knew we'd be adding VanVleet, I still take BPA available in the draft, even if it is a PG.

Vanvleet had a very good run in the playoffs and he is solid. Good 3pt. shooter. But signing him to a MAX? Think this would be typical stretch for the Knicks. Considering the short sample size(one half year of 18 and 6).
Also, the astonishing upward potential" seems much less astonishing when you factor in the close to 10 additional minutes per game that he is getting and the additional touches and production needed to fill the loss of Kawhi. IMO, Max money should go to a guy that is top in the league and that has the ability to carry a team to the playoffs. Can't see a case for anyone claiming Vanvleet is one of the those type of players. Specially when you consider he is the third best player on the Raptors.

Agreed on Vanvleet. No way should we give a 6'0 combo guard 100 mil. He is playing well in a great system, along really good players, not to mention eh gets to share pg duties with an allstar in Lowry. The league is moving away from the little guard, for the most part. I would pass on him.

Some more Killian Hayes. That step back in the begining

smackeddog wrote:

franco12 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

franco12 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:In case we decide not to go for a pg in the draft:

1. Fred VanVleet - Unrestricted - Toronto Raptors:

VanVleet was a crucial contributor in the Raptors run to a ring during the 2019 postseason, averaging 14.9 points on 49% shooting over Toronto's final eight playoff games. He's continued his astonishing upward trajectory this season, his first as a full-time starter. Through 45 games in 2019-20, VanVleet is averaging 18.0 points, 6.8 assists, 3.7 rebounds and 1.9 steals. He's one of only six players in the NBA this season averaging at least 18 points and more than 6.5 dimes and 2.5 made triples. The other five are James Harden, Damian Lillard, Luka Doncic, Kyle Lowry and Trae Young. The Raptors would obviously like to re-sign VanVleet, but they will have plenty of competition for the premier point guard on the open market. FVV could very well command a contract worth north of $100 million.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/02/21/2020-nba-free-agency-preview-ranking-the-top-point-guards-from-fred-vanvleet-to-kris-dunn/#4c6742e17604

Other options are pretty bad, unless you take on an overpaid stop gap like Conley

I've been one to lobby for Fred VanVleet, to max him out.

I did not realize he would be getting a contract worth $100M! I guess I'd rather that than similar but shorter big money to a player like Dragic at 34.

Maybe Chris Paul and his $80M for 2 years isn't so bad?

I'm not sure about him, but I'd feel better about drafting Haliburton (play him SG) if we were signing VanVleet (why have I thought it was Van Fleet all this time?!). Also signing VanVleet allows you to take a good look at Okoro and Okongwu with our first rounder.

I guess the only reason not to max VanVleet this summer is you want to keep cap room for 2021 and perhaps taking a run at Giannis Antetokounmpo. But it seems like we could add both- of course, the assumption is getting any of them to sign, otherwise we simply end up with Taj Gibson and Bobby Portis again.

Even if I knew we'd be adding VanVleet, I still take BPA available in the draft, even if it is a PG.

Honestly, give up the 2021 dreams, why would Antetokoumpo sign with us? Look at the free agents in 2021, which ones are unrestricted and would likely sign with us? I'd rather spend the money on a piece like Van Vleet or some shooters than keep 2 max spots free for free agents that aren't going to sign next year and have a repeat of all the LOL knick stories of this past offseason.

smackeddog wrote:Nice summary of our PG options:

https://theknickswall.com/the-knicks-wall-2020-draft-board-first-edition-killian-hayes-lamelo-ball/

Being here in Germany Ive watched Kilian Hayes a lot this year and I really like a lot of things in his game...
- at an early age he shows great composure at the PG spot ... rarely ever gets pushed out of his game by opponents pressure due to good ball handling ability and his calm demeanor. He has basically been handed over the key of the team to run the offense in Ulm from day one - the minutes hes playing are significant for German league standards at his age and being a rookie to the league.
- he definately is a PG ... even though he does shoot quite a bit from 3 and is doing good moving off the ball aswell ... he definately is a PG who tries to initiate an offense and make the right pass
- he is good at getting to the basket... even though he is not the quickest his game is shifty and slick and he uses some nice stop and go moves and fakes to get to the basket ... he also is quite skilled finishing with his left or dropping it of to the cutter

He does remind me of a "poor mans" D-Lo in these aspect ... a lot less flashy though but solid.

Now do I want him on the Knicks (especially for a lottery pick - which some team will probably give to him)... nope... because...
- his athleticism is sub-par... even putting Ja Morant close to his name is... well just wrong. I think he will struggle a lot on the NBA level on offense and defence due to this... its lack of speed and ups
- he is still very turnover prone... which is often times based on his decission making... this will "go away with time and experience" but I am just not willing to wait watching a high-risk PG throwing away passes to the opponent for 2-3 years...
There was a sequence with a minute on the clock where Ulm was behind 2-3 points and he had two horrible TOs in the last two possesions basically killing the game for his team single handeldy. I know its a learning process for young PGs but I just dont see it on the Knicks.
- no star-potential ... to be honest Hayes is a baller who has been competing against grown man and held his own already - the German leauge really is not that bad at all - but I just do not see him grow into a special NBA player or even a starter!

smackeddog wrote:

dodger78 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Nice summary of our PG options:

https://theknickswall.com/the-knicks-wall-2020-draft-board-first-edition-killian-hayes-lamelo-ball/

Being here in Germany Ive watched Kilian Hayes a lot this year and I really like a lot of things in his game...
- at an early age he shows great composure at the PG spot ... rarely ever gets pushed out of his game by opponents pressure due to good ball handling ability and his calm demeanor. He has basically been handed over the key of the team to run the offense in Ulm from day one - the minutes hes playing are significant for German league standards at his age and being a rookie to the league.
- he definately is a PG ... even though he does shoot quite a bit from 3 and is doing good moving off the ball aswell ... he definately is a PG who tries to initiate an offense and make the right pass
- he is good at getting to the basket... even though he is not the quickest his game is shifty and slick and he uses some nice stop and go moves and fakes to get to the basket ... he also is quite skilled finishing with his left or dropping it of to the cutter

He does remind me of a "poor mans" D-Lo in these aspect ... a lot less flashy though but solid.

Now do I want him on the Knicks (especially for a lottery pick - which some team will probably give to him)... nope... because...
- his athleticism is sub-par... even putting Ja Morant close to his name is... well just wrong. I think he will struggle a lot on the NBA level on offense and defence due to this... its lack of speed and ups
- he is still very turnover prone... which is often times based on his decission making... this will "go away with time and experience" but I am just not willing to wait watching a high-risk PG throwing away passes to the opponent for 2-3 years...
There was a sequence with a minute on the clock where Ulm was behind 2-3 points and he had two horrible TOs in the last two possesions basically killing the game for his team single handeldy. I know its a learning process for young PGs but I just dont see it on the Knicks.
- no star-potential ... to be honest Hayes is a baller who has been competing against grown man and held his own already - the German leauge really is not that bad at all - but I just do not see him grow into a special NBA player or even a starter!

Thanks for the info, much appreciated

Happy to be able to provide something after a long while not commenting on anything... but frankly... venting on the Knicks has just become so boring after the years! ;-)

dodger78 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Nice summary of our PG options:

https://theknickswall.com/the-knicks-wall-2020-draft-board-first-edition-killian-hayes-lamelo-ball/

Being here in Germany Ive watched Kilian Hayes a lot this year and I really like a lot of things in his game...
- at an early age he shows great composure at the PG spot ... rarely ever gets pushed out of his game by opponents pressure due to good ball handling ability and his calm demeanor. He has basically been handed over the key of the team to run the offense in Ulm from day one - the minutes hes playing are significant for German league standards at his age and being a rookie to the league.
- he definately is a PG ... even though he does shoot quite a bit from 3 and is doing good moving off the ball aswell ... he definately is a PG who tries to initiate an offense and make the right pass
- he is good at getting to the basket... even though he is not the quickest his game is shifty and slick and he uses some nice stop and go moves and fakes to get to the basket ... he also is quite skilled finishing with his left or dropping it of to the cutter

He does remind me of a "poor mans" D-Lo in these aspect ... a lot less flashy though but solid.

Now do I want him on the Knicks (especially for a lottery pick - which some team will probably give to him)... nope... because...
- his athleticism is sub-par... even putting Ja Morant close to his name is... well just wrong. I think he will struggle a lot on the NBA level on offense and defence due to this... its lack of speed and ups
- he is still very turnover prone... which is often times based on his decission making... this will "go away with time and experience" but I am just not willing to wait watching a high-risk PG throwing away passes to the opponent for 2-3 years...
There was a sequence with a minute on the clock where Ulm was behind 2-3 points and he had two horrible TOs in the last two possesions basically killing the game for his team single handeldy. I know its a learning process for young PGs but I just dont see it on the Knicks.
- no star-potential ... to be honest Hayes is a baller who has been competing against grown man and held his own already - the German leauge really is not that bad at all - but I just do not see him grow into a special NBA player or even a starter!

The Knickswall said he shot 32% from three and Basketball-Reference has him at 39%. Would you describe his shot as pure or streaky? I agree with your assessment of his speed and athleticism, but I thought similar things about Luka in Europe. Sometimes it's hard to see how well that change of pace game will transfer to the NBA.

From wait I’ve read, they’re both the same height (6.5f), weight (180lb), we’re both efficient in college (48fg vs 50fg, both shot around 40% from 3), averaged roughly same amount of points (15), FTs (82%), assists (5 vs 6.5). From what I can gather, neith are super quick or can blow by people.

This is what he looks like after 2 seasons: