GustavBahler wrote:https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/draft.html

One reason why Frank became such a divisive issue was the lack of 1st round picks back then, and the success (or lack thereof) of the few we made. Hardaway was shipped. Too many years with just a second round pick.

We have all our 1st rounders (and then some) a top 3 pick playing like one. A second round pick who is the most efficient scorer in the league right now. Back then we had Early and KP, and that was about it.

Getting the pick right back then was a bigger deal. Why the debates got so heated at times.

Frank, like KP seemingly came from know where with little hype here as he was not an NCAA level player. How often we see a kid emerge from march madness only to fall into mediocrity. Sometimes they are drafted too high due to their performance at the right time. There is a long list of these guys but for the old timers Bo Kimble and Otis Birdsong come to mind. “Otis Birdsong”........think H20 grace in college lighting it up and that marketable name! How can a kid with that name fail??
Frank divides us. We as fans are impatient and trained in the art of loving the starphuch. Why? When we fail we cling to hope. NBK touts “New Regime” with the hope magical FO can transform a better future. We’ll soon salivate over new coach talk. We used Durant to get us thru last year. Media drives the narrative at times but a fan base desperate will eat it up. Nalod included. Frank is doing fine but we also think we can replace him with better. Same theme as FO, coach and cap space. The concept of hope will be better than the reality.

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Nalod wrote:Gustav, whats the trade you make? . Obviously we all take Donovan Mitchell but after that, what was the deal you do at that time? IM not being snarky as I would with the Rainman, but its just so hard to recreate a scenario.
Its not that I disagree with you,but Frank rumored to have been favored by dallas next pick. So we are looking not at Frank anymore. For that matter, Frank paired with Doncic might have been a great long term prospect for Dallas.
For us Frank Fans we mostly agree he came out too early. We also consider last year a waste for many reasons but he was injured. He is just 21, if he was a Euro Rookie this year playing this way we'd feel different? Maybe.
I dont' care about being "right", its about getting it right. We just don't know whats going to become of him.

Thank you. He wasnt as NBA ready as he should have been at 8. Which means IMO that if the lack of readiness was factored in, Frank would be drafted lower. A work in progress like Frank, you normally dont take with such a high pick. Even with his upside.

Not claiming I would have picked better. Wanted to draft Smith jr (more upside) but I understood why Phil got scared off by the knee problems, with his time in the league. Also felt that Frank was too raw for such a high pick. Lotto is where you go looking for game changers.

Teams pick on high end potential all the time for guys that come out too early, it’s like the full history of the draft and especially the lottery

Case could be made that we did that with KP given his age, and the fact he was a bench player overseas, not getting a lot of minutes. Would argue that KP's ceiling was seen as a good deal higher than Frank's.

When you have a top ten draft pick, very raw players should have a very big upside. Thought Frank had an upside, not big enough to draft him at 8.

I remember at the draft they put him as the player who was the biggest boom or bust. There wasn't enough information out for us to know what his potential was. Knicks did personally scout him though.

Based off what the #8 pick should net you. The only way for the Knicks to have maximized the value of #8 would have been to either draft Spida Mitchell, or trade out of that yrs draft for either a proven star or multiple future lotto picks.

newyorknewyork wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Nalod wrote:Gustav, whats the trade you make? . Obviously we all take Donovan Mitchell but after that, what was the deal you do at that time? IM not being snarky as I would with the Rainman, but its just so hard to recreate a scenario.
Its not that I disagree with you,but Frank rumored to have been favored by dallas next pick. So we are looking not at Frank anymore. For that matter, Frank paired with Doncic might have been a great long term prospect for Dallas.
For us Frank Fans we mostly agree he came out too early. We also consider last year a waste for many reasons but he was injured. He is just 21, if he was a Euro Rookie this year playing this way we'd feel different? Maybe.
I dont' care about being "right", its about getting it right. We just don't know whats going to become of him.

Thank you. He wasnt as NBA ready as he should have been at 8. Which means IMO that if the lack of readiness was factored in, Frank would be drafted lower. A work in progress like Frank, you normally dont take with such a high pick. Even with his upside.

Not claiming I would have picked better. Wanted to draft Smith jr (more upside) but I understood why Phil got scared off by the knee problems, with his time in the league. Also felt that Frank was too raw for such a high pick. Lotto is where you go looking for game changers.

Teams pick on high end potential all the time for guys that come out too early, it’s like the full history of the draft and especially the lottery

Wish Frank could have gotten a chance to play for Mike in Westchester. His draft express scouting report said he needed to develop in the d/g league if he was going to play point. Not sure why the Knicks didn't go there but it might have been because they didn't want to send the 8th pick to the g league.

Think it had more to do with JH and Fizz wanting to oversee his development themselves. They could have easily had an out in terms of perception by throwing Phil under the bus for the pick.

JH was taking Frank in the right direction. Fizz took the kid and basically tried to ruin him. Fizz was an albatross that basically took young players and put them behind the curve with his BS tough love crap. Now Mike has to build these kids up but their playing time is suffering for vets because he has to save the GM and President’s job. You can’t make this shyt up.

BigDaddyG wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Expectations have changed since Frank was drafted. As good as he's playing now, he's still not starting material. He's playing like a very good backup. For a lotto pick, who had pro experience coming in, Id call Frank's more aggressive play welcome. Not good enpugh yet to justify picking him at 8. Would have traded down to get him. Frank has to show his recent aggressive play is sustainable. We've been teased before. Will say this run looks like his best shot yet at really turning the corner.

You look at the history of the 8th pick, that's exactly what teams are looking at. That's probably bthe most speculative pick on the board. Not too upset. Outside of Mitchell, I don't really see us getting burned. The good news is Frank is playing at replacement level and does show signs of improvement. He'll never be Mitchell, but heck, Donovan probably goes #1 in a redraft.

Dont know about the last few weeks, but Frank has been consistently at the bottom of the league when it comes to offense, since being drafted. Thats not par for the course at 8.

Im not saying Frank is a bust, never have. Am saying we were expecting to pick the PG of the future at 8, not wait 3 years for a backup. I am glad Frank is less hesitant to go to the rim, but he really needs to shoot better from the field. There is improvement in that dept (as Martin pointed.out). Still more needed.

GustavBahler wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Expectations have changed since Frank was drafted. As good as he's playing now, he's still not starting material. He's playing like a very good backup. For a lotto pick, who had pro experience coming in, Id call Frank's more aggressive play welcome. Not good enpugh yet to justify picking him at 8. Would have traded down to get him. Frank has to show his recent aggressive play is sustainable. We've been teased before. Will say this run looks like his best shot yet at really turning the corner.

You look at the history of the 8th pick, that's exactly what teams are looking at. That's probably bthe most speculative pick on the board. Not too upset. Outside of Mitchell, I don't really see us getting burned. The good news is Frank is playing at replacement level and does show signs of improvement. He'll never be Mitchell, but heck, Donovan probably goes #1 in a redraft.

Dont know about the last few weeks, but Frank has been consistently at the bottom of the league when it comes to offense, since being drafted. Thats not par for the course at 8.

Im not saying Frank is a bust, never have. Am saying we were expecting to pick the PG of the future at 8, not wait 3 years for a backup. I am glad Frank is less hesitant to go to the rim, but he really needs to shoot better from the field. There is improvement in that dept (as Martin pointed.out). Still more needed.

I'm looking at his Vorp which is at about replacement level. Probably takes into account defense and the fact he's not turning the ball over. His offense isn't good, but it isn't abysmal. Baby steps. I'm still think he can be a high level role player, which is ok when you look 8th spot from a historical perspective.

shinmen wrote:When looking at resigning Franck which i m all for it, we must assess what s his value at the end if his rookie contract. At 5~8 per, it s a good signing. At 10 plus, as much as i love his game, it s a slight overpay.

Why?

Chandler wrote:

Wish Frank could have gotten a chance to play for Mike in Westchester. His draft express scouting report said he needed to develop in the d/g league if he was going to play point. Not sure why the Knicks didn't go there but it might have been because they didn't want to send the 8th pick to the g league.

I have very mixed feelings on this. It is a constant criticism of Frank's development. Being with the Knicks (as opposed to G) one can argue you're practicing and playing against better competition, having better coaches, better nutritionists, seeing the game consistently ay an NBA level where things are faster and bigger etc. G-league gives minutes and (false?) confidence

Is Iggy Brazdeikis not getting the coaching and nutritional advice he needs just because he wears suits to Knicks games but plays in Westchester games? That's ridiculous.

Sambakick wrote:

Chandler wrote:

Wish Frank could have gotten a chance to play for Mike in Westchester. His draft express scouting report said he needed to develop in the d/g league if he was going to play point. Not sure why the Knicks didn't go there but it might have been because they didn't want to send the 8th pick to the g league.

I have very mixed feelings on this. It is a constant criticism of Frank's development. Being with the Knicks (as opposed to G) one can argue you're practicing and playing against better competition, having better coaches, better nutritionists, seeing the game consistently ay an NBA level where things are faster and bigger etc. G-league gives minutes and (false?) confidence

Is Iggy Brazdeikis not getting the coaching and nutritional advice he needs just because he wears suits to Knicks games but plays in Westchester games? That's ridiculous.

Don’t think he’s saying he getting none. Saying it’s probably not on the level the NBA would provide. But all of the is speculative. The reality is that Iggy isn’t going to get mins with the big club. So him playing in Westchester makes sense as he will actually play big consistent mins.

Frank was getting 20mins a night with the Knicks his first 2 seasons. With that said though based off of Franks weaknesses. Westchester may have been the better play. Frank needed to physically mature, needed confidence and needed reps to build up his craft with the ball in his hands as a featured player. Him being featured vs lesser players could have possibly helped him in those areas. With Mike having the experience that he has had as a coach. Having Mike personally work with him may have been better than him with Fizz.

Can this change? Of course and I have a mix of hope and expectations. All his shooting %s are up this year and he looks like a player who can play offense. We have seen dunks and floaters and pull up jumpers. He's not lighting it up but the signs are there and the 21 year old said this was the first year he really felt comfortable living here.

Look at Lowry and Siakam and Draymond, etc etc... some guys take a couple years.

Just wait for Frank to start using his size on offense. I still hope he's ours!

newyorknewyork wrote:

Sambakick wrote:

Chandler wrote:

Wish Frank could have gotten a chance to play for Mike in Westchester. His draft express scouting report said he needed to develop in the d/g league if he was going to play point. Not sure why the Knicks didn't go there but it might have been because they didn't want to send the 8th pick to the g league.

I have very mixed feelings on this. It is a constant criticism of Frank's development. Being with the Knicks (as opposed to G) one can argue you're practicing and playing against better competition, having better coaches, better nutritionists, seeing the game consistently ay an NBA level where things are faster and bigger etc. G-league gives minutes and (false?) confidence

Is Iggy Brazdeikis not getting the coaching and nutritional advice he needs just because he wears suits to Knicks games but plays in Westchester games? That's ridiculous.

Don’t think he’s saying he getting none. Saying it’s probably not on the level the NBA would provide. But all of the is speculative. The reality is that Iggy isn’t going to get mins with the big club. So him playing in Westchester makes sense as he will actually play big consistent mins.

Why isn't it on NBA level though? These guys practice with the Knicks, then take a short ride and play in Westchester. Playing G-league games would be "in-addition to" their regular NBA life where they ride the pine. There was absolutely no reason not to try to get Frank into some W-Knicks games as the primary guard the last two years. I believe there have been players play for the farm club in the afternoon and the parent team at night. It's not like you are being demoted into some alternate dimension. You're just getting more reps and experience.