I’m misconstrued as defending MIlls, I’m not. IM defending a position that if Dolan is the true architect of our dysfunction that panics before a culture is allowed to take root even after a mistake, then how can it be allowed to grow? Dolan hires PHil who is a freaking coaching genius. Not a good hire but in time some things would have taken hold and we should have grown from it. The KP thing a good example.

What we don’t know: who and what were the parameters of hiring Fiz? All things being equal, did Dolan decide on Fiz to fulfill a FA starphuch agenda? I don’t know. does removing mills actually install confidence to the NBA community? If you hire a big name, do they roll their eyes and think: “The last five guys only lasted a few years each, this one likely won’t either”.
Also, what is on MIlls Vs. what is on Perry? Same thing, build one way, then change course? Think league won’t see the real occcurace?

“But Nalod, we have to do something!!!!”. Maybe we don’t. Bad enough we fired the coach. Panicking in the midst of the rebuild to do another rebuild won’t bring stability. Have a plan and be brave enough to fulfill it. It sucks.

Am I right? Nalod can’t tell you cuz its the future. Fans want something tangible to hope on. Firing Mills feels good and gives teh buzz of instant hope. It won’t do a thing for our reputation. Shows a lack of resolve and why would a coach or others want to come there when the owner panics? FA’s on long term deals want stability. We can’t give them that. Thats what drew Durant to Nets vs. Knicks. Its called “Faith”. I’m not saying Mills has earned it, but better think long and hard about another move. This guy was about to be the Union Head in 2013 when Dolan snatched him up. He had respect of the players and the association.
What can new guy do in two years that Mills can’t? Or really Perry?

I think the Knicks just need to truly hand the keys to someone free from Dolan. No Mills. They had a great chance at getting David Griffin and then getting Budenholzer. Instead they went with Mills, and Fizdale. Nice work. You think KP is traded for pennies on the dollar, and NY hires Fizdale with Griffin? But Griff wanted Mills out. Dolan wanted him to work with Mills (or under him). So they go after Perry. Who sucks as well, based on his work in Sacramento. Perry has done nothing note worthy in the league. Again, you need Dolan to truly delegate. Not like with Phil. Phil was paired with Mills. And Phil was lazy and old. Get someone in who is not going to have to work with Mills. Let him pick the coach, and let him build the roster. It will only be going up from where the Knicks are. Mills has to go, but I don't know if Dolan would allow that.

CrushAlot wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:If Mills stays beyond this season, we might end up in the same situation as we were in during the last big FA push. All dressed up with nowhere to go. Would you feel confident knowing you are going to a team where the same exec has been part of two decades of losing? We focus on the roster, the owner, when discussing free agency, but the front office is part of FAs calculus as well.

All that cap space could bring us some big names in 2021. Look at the list. If Dolan brings in a new team president who is more than just a name. Mitch/Barrett keep improving. We would have a good shot of attracting talent. Otherwise I see us getting hosed again. Morris is worth extending. Believe FAs would like having him as a teammate. Don't want the cupboard to be bare when trying to sign big FAs. Hope we can afford him.

Just stop.

Mills or no Mills, the Knicks are a big ship that doesn't go from loser to winner because Christ walks through the door.

Truth is that the FO did a decent job of recovering from disappointment this summer. They can't and no one ever will control the whims and whimsy of the NBA FA contest. Its not easy to build, sustain, or to perpetuate winning cultures in the NBA.

This clearing cap space meme that never ends and the equally ridiculous tank meme are wholly a waste of time and energy.

*This* is what the beginning stages of a rebuild look like. Some assets shine, others fail.

Prune the roster and in doing so harden the roster. We will get our draft picks regardless. Continuous improvement is the goal.

Wrong. Mills took a 54 win team and destroyed it. He was here for the Isiah era. He has sucked and survived for a long time. It is why I am terrified by the Blatt hire. Blatt is a great basketball mind and on the surface it looks like a good hire. But Mills has surrounded himself with his guys if it comes down to a decision between Perry and Mills. If a guy like Morey, Presti, or Ujiri was brought in and given total power it would change everything. Those are guys that have done the job Mills has competently and are considered some of the best at their craft. Every reset the Knicks have had since Dolan backed away has involved Mills and hasn't worked. Mills has two goals, survive at msg and build the Knicks. He has been successful at one and maybe circling the wagons again to keep building on that success. Unfortunately he has been very bad as an executive.

The 54 win team collapsed under its own weight.

I don't know that Mills is guilty of anything short of loyalty to the Knicks and Dolan. Neither being a bad thing in and of itself.

A number of milestones that have kept the Knicks reeling over the years come to mind.

The Bargnani trade was a ball-buster. Bargnani was garbage and the Knicks got fleeced. It was a trade that was intended to put that 54 win team over the top. The same FO that put that 54 win team together slipped up. That and age (retirements) and the toxicity of the roster itself rapidly eroded any chance of putting together another run.

A second instance was a lost opportunity in which Dolan's instincts were completely correct. The summer that Kyle Lowry was a FA, Dolan wanted to sign him. But Phil was being hired and Dolan honored his commitment to get out of the way. Phil struggled ridding the roster of undesirables and reconstructing it with players who "got after it".

The third watershed moment was multifaceted. KP and Melo became a tag team of disingenuous, stupid, malicious, and team-destructive behaviors. When Phil attempted to sell KP at a high price, the KP apologist "nation" sh@t their pants. Instead of following through with PJ, we're back in a spin cycle.

And last [on my list] is the hate-mongering that the league, MSM, and NBA alumni assert on the Knicks in general. The FO believed they had the opportunity to sign at least Durant. The source of that belief was just F'n with the Knicks and its fanbase - stirring up the summer disappointment and predictable lynch mobs.

And before that the LeBron posse "recommended" Fizdale. Put those analytics in your pipe and smoke 'em. The league loves giving the Knicks bad advice. It keeps the team down - an easy pinata for yearly ridicule.

So who were we talking about being accountable??? Oh, yeah - Dolan, Mills, Perry... yeah, how about we get smarter than that?

Jmpasq wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Dolan tries to hand over power to established names, but so long as Mills is there present to backstab them, they are undermined. Who got Phil out? It was Mills. Who was the one who is always in Dolan's ear? Mills. On everything. Mills has been there for a long time, and he has the most established trust with Dolan. When Phil came to the Knicks, Mills worked under him. But he also was the source off all the negative BS you heard from the media. He would go out and tell everyone the opposite of what Phil would want. Why do you think when David Griffin came to the Knicks he wanted a clean sweep of the FO, no Mills basically. Jeanie Buss talked about it as well when she took over the Lakers front office. She said I learned from Phil's mistakes. No keeping backstabbers looking to undermine you in the office (ironically Magic did anyway).

I think the Knicks just need to truly hand the keys to someone free from Dolan. No Mills. They had a great chance at getting David Griffin and then getting Budenholzer. Instead they went with Mills, and Fizdale. Nice work. You think KP is traded for pennies on the dollar, and NY hires Fizdale with Griffin? But Griff wanted Mills out. Dolan wanted him to work with Mills (or under him). So they go after Perry. Who sucks as well, based on his work in Sacramento. Perry has done nothing note worthy in the league. Again, you need Dolan to truly delegate. Not like with Phil. Phil was paired with Mills. And Phil was lazy and old. Get someone in who is not going to have to work with Mills. Let him pick the coach, and let him build the roster. It will only be going up from where the Knicks are. Mills has to go, but I don't know if Dolan would allow that.

Whoever comes in here has to be allowed to fie everyone Mills, Allan Houston, the director of Scouting everyone he wants gone

KP shot 5-15 last night, in a loss where they lot Toronto win from 30 or so down.
I think his clutch shooting is abysmal, in the 20%-30% range, someone correct me.
He is scoring and getting his blocks, but his games are kind of empty.
I am actually shocked as I thought he looked to have good vision and be an all around good player.
In fairness he is coming back from injury. But I think the bigger issue is his energy levels and he suffers from anemia I believe.

Phucking up a good thing is classic Knicks. At least he's not Lebron. Knicks can survive and rebuild but they have shown no skill in doing so. We remain in need of luck

NotInMyHouse wrote:

Nalod wrote:

NotInMyHouse wrote:Just for the sake of both sides:

KP shot 5-15 last night, in a loss where they lot Toronto win from 30 or so down.
I think his clutch shooting is abysmal, in the 20%-30% range, someone correct me.
He is scoring and getting his blocks, but his games are kind of empty.
I am actually shocked as I thought he looked to have good vision and be an all around good player.
In fairness he is coming back from injury. But I think the bigger issue is his energy levels and he suffers from anemia I believe.

I had the highest expectations of this kid whose talents and instincts are top notch. Take that and if his body can transform into a monster he has MVP type potential. Giannis had the athletic ability but not the fundamentals. KP the opposite. incredible fundamantals and instincts at 7'3. The ego thing could have been cool if tamed a bit. Let the game speak first. I think KP learned some hard lessons the last few years. Stil he got a max deal and still a hero back home. "Regrettable"!!!!!!

Obviously when you get to 25-27 you have about the peak. A max guy should be a closer. With KP you have fatigue issues. This is a kid who is like ewing offensively but with far greater range. Face to the basket giant. My guess is next season you'll know what you have in him.

Bottom line is not him or Mavs but if Knicks succeed its a Win-Win. Fact is, they (Mavs) are winning and we stuck.

I had high hopes for KP. I was all on the Unicorn bandwagon. My greatest fear was his fatigue (anemia) issues.
As you said, next season will show us what they have (at least regarding his last injury The anemia thing might be never ending.)
They have a very talented team for sure. I wish KP never requested the trade. Those picks are probably not going to be anything (unless there are some injuries there) and DSJ doesn't seem like much, yet anyway.

Perhaps the basketball Gods shine upon us in this next draft. Playing in NY though, is a big disadvantage as far as the Media and owner we have is concerned though.

The whole thing played out like a bad dream. I used to about come to tears when KP would do something special and was thinking how much fun it would be to see him evolve. I don't care about Janis and his attitude. not the first knick who might have been deplorable off the court. Keep it legal, not totally immoral, and out of the courts and Im OK. Spree was a total ******* off the court and his disappearance come camp time was laughable. But he kept it together on the court where it counts. Camby had a hard time with that. Oak brought to the court which was entertaining!
I know its easy to digest and repel with "Blame" but at the end of the day it just plain sucks the way it all unfolded.

He made an All Star team, he’s got all nba skills and showed he played well in nyc. There were multiple coaches, a lack of stability in the organization, they were putting him in the middle of a saga Phil created. Mills is obviously a snake and plays both sides. He’s the idiot that signed Hardaway and Ron Baker before we had a GM in place and he’s the guy with Perry that rushed to give away our biggest asset. More importantly he fits perfectly btw Knox/RJ and Mitch.

There isn’t any debating, we got fleeced, the Knicks have proven they are incompetent at every turn.

Just look at the offseason

1. Ban Dailynews
2. Miss on every free agent
3. Tie up all cap space and get no future assets to use in trades
4. Issue press statements
- Apologizing for getting no free agents
- Saying we didn’t offer the max to KD
- We didn’t offer Richard Jefferson a contract
- Sorry for starting off terribly

It’s literally one **** show after the next. KP sucked last night and they still nearly beat Toronto after destroying Philly and beating the Bucks without Luka.

KP had us in most games, we just didn’t have a closer yet. We actually looked half way decent in tim hardways first season before he got hurt. But trying to build a team that fits together is half the battle, we blew a big opportunity and we may never get it back.

MS wrote:KPs faults are not important. All players have them. What is important is free agents do want to come here.

He made an All Star team, he’s got all nba skills and showed he played well in nyc. There were multiple coaches, a lack of stability in the organization, they were putting him in the middle of a saga Phil created. Mills is obviously a snake and plays both sides. He’s the idiot that signed Hardaway and Ron Baker before we had a GM in place and he’s the guy with Perry that rushed to give away our biggest asset. More importantly he fits perfectly btw Knox/RJ and Mitch.

There isn’t any debating, we got fleeced, the Knicks have proven they are incompetent at every turn.

Just look at the offseason

1. Ban Dailynews
2. Miss on every free agent
3. Tie up all cap space and get no future assets to use in trades
4. Issue press statements
- Apologizing for getting no free agents
- Saying we didn’t offer the max to KD
- We didn’t offer Richard Jefferson a contract
- Sorry for starting off terribly

It’s literally one **** show after the next. KP sucked last night and they still nearly beat Toronto after destroying Philly and beating the Bucks without Luka.

KP had us in most games, we just didn’t have a closer yet. We actually looked half way decent in tim hardways first season before he got hurt. But trying to build a team that fits together is half the battle, we blew a big opportunity and we may never get it back.

The hate runs deep. We still chaffed about Ron Bakers 4mm per 2 year deal? Actually look at THjr on a decent team. He is doing well for the money. Timmay is not a no. 1 option. That's what he was most of his second stint here. That's not your gotcha moment!

1. Ban Daily news. Smells like Dolan? No gotcha!
2. Miss on every free agent? WE signed 5. "Every"? If we signed Irving, you be just as upset. Durant? That one hurt. 35mm to sit out? Not my money. You wanted Harris and Middleton for what they signed for? They'd be awful here. No gotcha.
3. Tie up all cap space? Most teams do that. You talking trades were we take back more than give out? There might be scenarios that could be helpful. Not sure its a team killer. Good point though.
4. Issue press statements. He gets railed for doing them, and railed for not. Did we make any offer to KD? I see you said "no max" which colors it at we held back, but did we even make any offer or have any conversation? The Richard Jefferson scandal. IS Mills being technical here? We reached out and sort of made an offer? I agree, why even respond? MIlls is testy? Maybe a good thing?LOL!!!! Apologizing for the slow start? That has Dolan written all over it!! Panic move! It was a bad look for the organization.

Here is where I draw the line. You say "MIlls". I say "Knicks". I don't care who runs the ship as long as the ship is doing well! Its not like Larry Brown was doing pressers off the highway dysfunctional and Isiah is schtuppig Anucha stupid but for the most part this FO is actually the most normal we have had in years!!!!!

Knicks record since Mills took over for Phil? Pretty bad actually. Nalod not sure MIlls is that dysfunctional to risk further instability. Unless you get Ujiri or Presti your not stable going forward.

It’s about judgement. Allan Houston deserved 70-75MM we gave him 100MM. You need to be smart and you never overpay role players when you don’t have the pieces in place. We gave THJR 15MM more than he was worth at the time.

If you consider anyone else aside from Morris in demand you’re on drugs. We only got him because Bullock was injured, he’s the only guys that has been of any value. Giving big money to Ellington, Portis and Gibson was insane. Simply saying Harkless and Iggy brought back picks for the space they took up only highlights this teams stupidity.

Fact of the matter is, we had a plan in place to move KP without any value. We rushed (like we did with free agents), we pretended we had information (our dumpy incompetent owner said as much during interviews right after the trade) that KD and Irving wanted to play for us and then on the first day of free agency they signed with the Nets. No meeting for the Knicks.

But, we got two ****ty picks and DSJR who may not be in the league in two seasons. Whether any of the **** smells like Dolan it doesn’t matter. All the KP
Shit can’t be believed after the execution and dumpster fire of the offseason and season.