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Desperation
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Nalod
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11/14/2019  9:15 AM

If fans have little hope and the Leagues players/agents don’t respect MIlls and the knick then he has to go. Its not a question of firing him as punishment for what he did or did not do in the past, its about respect in the future. Ultimately its Dolan. Dolan can’t get in front and tell you he is credible person and they are doing many good things. Nobody believes in him and with good reason. If Jeff Bezo’s or Barack OBama became the general partner of the knicks and said as new owner “Despite the lack of current success I am leaving the current FO in place as I have reviewed every facet of the plan and believe this is the proper course of developing players and growing assets that will ultimately lead to success and a championship. Everyone has a job to do and we will do ours.” Thats credible from a credible person.
Dolan can change MIlls with Popovich and make everyone happy. Fact is Pop is not a god nor will he have the people and circumstances that drove SAS over the last 20 years. We have seen this movie before. DOlan caves and Starphuchs because he wants to win desperately. Desperation is never a good environment to make decisions. This is why we keep failing. Isiah and that regime was a disaster!! But we came off the Layden era and when we nearly crawled out from that he fires him and Isiah goes nuts. When top to bottom the league about mandates Wheel Chair Donnie and makes Dolan exile his friend Isiah. Dolan is loyal to a fault and hates to be told what to do. Desperate again he misses on Lebron, Gets Stat and trades the team for Melo. Fast forward he out of desperation he hires PHil. Now after a 17 win season and 2-8 the fans are desperate and Dolan forces Mils and Perry into impromptu pressor. Thats desperation. Not a good look.
I would greatly respect Dolan if he positioned himself as a fan and said the team needs stewardship he cannot provide and either puts his ownership stake of the teams in a blind trust to be run by another entities or sells his majority stake. I don’t think the man wants to lose or is blindly greedy like Sterling was running the clippers. He just can’t provide the cred. Mav’s have not been the best franchise but Cuban can look at KP and show him how he stuck with Dirk, won a chip and he can help him in business opportunities all while making its stars feel wanted. Players want to be in NYC, but they don’t want to be a knick. Can’t say I blame them.
Fans are Desperate. Dolan will get desperate. Thats when things get worse. Maybe its why Nalod rarely calls for change in times like this. Dolan might appear to do the right thing but he has run out of substance.

AUTOADVERT
Nalod
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11/14/2019  9:39 AM
The fix: Sorry to say keep drafting until we hit paydirt and build a roster with tradable assets and attract FA’s. If Dolan panics and caves to fans we are not moving forward.
I have no timeline or can tell you how or when success hits. We are all fatigued by years of losing but until a new ownership can install a credible culture with the first being Dolans exit then we have no choice but grow organically. IF we draft successfully we are still 3 years out. It might not be “acceptable” but it might be the truth. A credible owner could sell you that. Not this one. Mill has little cred because Dolan is loyal to him. Perry has a nice resume, but one year in under Mills has tainted him by fans. Fiz, same thing. His hiring was exciting and fans were hopeful.. One year and 10 games into a new season we are ready as fans to wash out the three of them. I have read Hinkies name here. Do you guys understand what he did and what the 76ers ownership was willing to go thru to to get here? The league basically stepped in with Colangelo to clean it up! No Dolan owned team could withstand that. Not Dolan or the fans. Presti name came up but fans are tainted because he did not win a chip. Look at his history of ownership from Seattle to OK and how they got here. You guys forget.
NBA takes balls and assets. Not Starphuchs and whining. Stay the course for this season. Suck it up. Don’t be desperate.
arkrud
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11/14/2019  10:01 AM
Nalod wrote:The fix: Sorry to say keep drafting until we hit paydirt and build a roster with tradable assets and attract FA’s. If Dolan panics and caves to fans we are not moving forward.
I have no timeline or can tell you how or when success hits. We are all fatigued by years of losing but until a new ownership can install a credible culture with the first being Dolans exit then we have no choice but grow organically. IF we draft successfully we are still 3 years out. It might not be “acceptable” but it might be the truth. A credible owner could sell you that. Not this one. Mill has little cred because Dolan is loyal to him. Perry has a nice resume, but one year in under Mills has tainted him by fans. Fiz, same thing. His hiring was exciting and fans were hopeful.. One year and 10 games into a new season we are ready as fans to wash out the three of them. I have read Hinkies name here. Do you guys understand what he did and what the 76ers ownership was willing to go thru to to get here? The league basically stepped in with Colangelo to clean it up! No Dolan owned team could withstand that. Not Dolan or the fans. Presti name came up but fans are tainted because he did not win a chip. Look at his history of ownership from Seattle to OK and how they got here. You guys forget.
NBA takes balls and assets. Not Starphuchs and whining. Stay the course for this season. Suck it up. Don’t be desperate.

Very lengthy explanation of simple facts.
Knicks sucked for 20 years, they suck now, and will suck another 2-4 seasons depending on luck.
And they will suck forever if Dolan and FO will not continue with conventional rebuild.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
GustavBahler
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11/14/2019  10:31 AM    LAST EDITED: 11/14/2019  10:31 AM
After Mills being with the organization for decades, as president, as GM. Believe the question Dolan should be asking himself is, can I do better than Mills as team president? Are there better candidates out there? Are any of them getable?

We thought Phil would be able to attract big names, but those big names almost universally did not want to play the Triangle. Phil wasnt much of a recruiter either. When teams tried to make a deal, they wanted to talk to Phil, not Mills, its been reported. Dont believe thats a shocker.

Most agents, stars, know about Mills track record, including the moves he's made as GM, and his relationship with Dolan. Dont believe stars will go on faith alone that Mills can lead the franchise out of the wilderness. They will likely want to see results first. Im happy they went to the Nets, but thats one big reason that KD/Kyrie went to BK. Otherwise we need a team president with a track record which inspires confidence. Id give Mills this season to show some improvement. If things havent improved enough (what is enough is another discussion) then Id like to see Dolan make a run at some of the more proven execs in the league with a recent track record of success. Not something they accomplished last century.

Sambakick
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11/14/2019  10:48 AM
Not all rebuilds are equal. Take the NY Giants.... they kept Eli for this season - WHY? He's killing their salary cap. But they're rebuilding with young skill position standouts and even though they are on the right track... they took the slow train by holding on to Eli. That rebuild could've been done better.


Knicks were already re-buiding the right way but not all rebuilds are equal. They could've tossed in some of their draft capital from the KP trade and gone after Malcolm Brogdon. Why pinch pennies on Ellington+Bullock+Payton? Cost the same salary but Brogdon would've added 3 more wins by now. This rebuild can be done better.

Everything in moderation. Even moderation.
Nalod
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11/14/2019  11:05 AM
GustavBahler wrote:After Mills being with the organization for decades, as president, as GM. Believe the question Dolan should be asking himself is, can I do better than Mills as team president? Are there better candidates out there? Are any of them getable?

We thought Phil would be able to attract big names, but those big names almost universally did not want to play the Triangle. Phil wasnt much of a recruiter either. When teams tried to make a deal, they wanted to talk to Phil, not Mills, its been reported. Dont believe thats a shocker.

Most agents, stars, know about Mills track record, including the moves he's made as GM, and his relationship with Dolan. Dont believe stars will go on faith alone that Mills can lead the franchise out of the wilderness. They will likely want to see results first. Im happy they went to the Nets, but thats one big reason that KD/Kyrie went to BK. Otherwise we need a team president with a track record which inspires confidence. Id give Mills this season to show some improvement. If things havent improved enough (what is enough is another discussion) then Id like to see Dolan make a run at some of the more proven execs in the league with a recent track record of success. Not something they accomplished last century.

You make a very logical presentation. I thought the hiring of Craig Robinson for development and a deep bench of coaches including Miller was about developing. Facts are Nets in a good place in the timeline for those two. KP should have demonstrated at least two months of recovery and gotten his extension with knicks having room to sign one more star. Funny thing is if we fell in the draft order we might have leapfrogged to the Nola postion or Lakers. Many "What ifs" to ponder. Worst case scenario after 10 games? 2-10. We here.

So we get Presti, Morey or even Masai. What can they do? Here is my problem with that, say it don't work out? Dolan panics, insists on coach change, what ever. The culture still exists. The buck stops with Dolan and he sucks at leadership in tough times. Sometimes patience is the only cure but as he said "it sucks to owner the knicks"! Everyone hates him. He panics. After 10 games with a whole season still a head of us we fans are doing what we usually do. Extrapolate the present and past into the future! We have little else to go by. No cred other than Fiz thru the Riley Tree and his Memphis experience taints him. We then come on line and whip ourselves into a frenzy. Nalod preaching patience with little historical precedence and the Rainman on the other side armed with 18 years of failure with the 54 win season as his template for success going forward. 5 players retired off that knick team and the depletion was so extreme Grunwald traded for Bargnani. Any owner worth his keep would have seen the insanity before hiring Mckinsey. What McKinsey did any owner with any sense would have seen as too extreme. Dolan tries and fails even worse. That's my issue. He logically does good things and then we read the extremity of it. Hiring a world class consulting firm in the face of failure is brilliant. Having them do time studies on how to run practice for the coaches is too much!!! Kills the culture. His loyalty is admirable. His to Isiah was illogical for many reasons well documented. His moves post Checketts is pretty bad. WE blame GM's and think its in the past but its not. I was seen as a Layden Champion for the logic behind the Mcdyess fiasco. You think a young neophyte like Layden has the juice to make 100million dollar deals that are illogical? WE blamed him for a lot but he was the guy that had to move Ewings contract.

In fact all this goes back to the moment Don Nelson got run out of town by Ewing and his slow ball self serving mode. That's the moment Dolan lost.
When JVG and Grunfeld were at odds he sided with JVG because he earned a 4mm 2 year extension. Grunfeld at that moment in time was building a new team for a new era but Dolan caved. These moments dictate a pattern of instead of thinking forward Dolan panics and keeps the status quo and the erosion can't be stopped.

this is why no matter how bad things get, and KP was a regrettable setback, the moment comes when Dolan has to choose:
Put out the fire or be forward thinking. Problem is we can't see the future and fans have little or no faith in any of it. Dolan, Mills, perry, or Fiz. Nalod says stay the course and its on paper illogical. But given our history, maybe its really the best. Its ugly and won't get better any time soon.
Knicks should do the opposite of Dolan wants to do. Historically its about the best course. Does Dolan have any smart kids with a good work ethic and ivy league education? Stand up guy or girl with a well polished patina and MBA's to demonstrate proficiency in some area?

Nalod
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11/14/2019  11:45 AM
Sambakick wrote:Not all rebuilds are equal. Take the NY Giants.... they kept Eli for this season - WHY? He's killing their salary cap. But they're rebuilding with young skill position standouts and even though they are on the right track... they took the slow train by holding on to Eli. That rebuild could've been done better.


Knicks were already re-buiding the right way but not all rebuilds are equal. They could've tossed in some of their draft capital from the KP trade and gone after Malcolm Brogdon. Why pinch pennies on Ellington+Bullock+Payton? Cost the same salary but Brogdon would've added 3 more wins by now. This rebuild can be done better.

Odell similar to KP. Odell goes on to lead Browns to superbowl Giants look worse.
They are eating Eli's contract. Good move.
Giants have won eight championships. The last 7 years ago. Knicks. Not so good. Giants get more slack. Jets are a perennial shyt show.
Rebuilds can always be done better in hindsight. Knicks rebuild on failed Rebuilds. NO doubt getting old.

Nalod
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11/14/2019  11:45 AM
arkrud wrote:
Nalod wrote:The fix: Sorry to say keep drafting until we hit paydirt and build a roster with tradable assets and attract FA’s. If Dolan panics and caves to fans we are not moving forward.
I have no timeline or can tell you how or when success hits. We are all fatigued by years of losing but until a new ownership can install a credible culture with the first being Dolans exit then we have no choice but grow organically. IF we draft successfully we are still 3 years out. It might not be “acceptable” but it might be the truth. A credible owner could sell you that. Not this one. Mill has little cred because Dolan is loyal to him. Perry has a nice resume, but one year in under Mills has tainted him by fans. Fiz, same thing. His hiring was exciting and fans were hopeful.. One year and 10 games into a new season we are ready as fans to wash out the three of them. I have read Hinkies name here. Do you guys understand what he did and what the 76ers ownership was willing to go thru to to get here? The league basically stepped in with Colangelo to clean it up! No Dolan owned team could withstand that. Not Dolan or the fans. Presti name came up but fans are tainted because he did not win a chip. Look at his history of ownership from Seattle to OK and how they got here. You guys forget.
NBA takes balls and assets. Not Starphuchs and whining. Stay the course for this season. Suck it up. Don’t be desperate.

Very lengthy explanation of simple facts.
Knicks sucked for 20 years, they suck now, and will suck another 2-4 seasons depending on luck.
And they will suck forever if Dolan and FO will not continue with conventional rebuild.

Brevity is not my strength.

stanleybostitch
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11/14/2019  11:58 AM
I'm with Nalod on this one. What is "culture"? It's nothing more than the behaviors and practices individuals and groups perform day-in and day-out. Changing culture is hard - it's why many companies are failing to make the pivot to our brave new digital world. So what behaviors have we engaged in in the past that contribute to the perception or reality that we have a crappy culture? The constant coaching changes, constant starphucking, and impatience. Maybe Mills isn't the guy, but to throw them all out now does more harm than good in that it puts us on the path to make the same mistakes we made in the past. We have to have patience here. Ideally Dolan sells, but short of that, wait until the offseason and then maybe bring in a 'czar' guy to run everything, though good luck getting Ujiri.
The new new core: Randle, RJ, IQ. Maybe Mitch. Future pick. Future trade. Future FA.
anrst
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11/14/2019  12:01 PM
all this front office dysfuntion is bad

but let's keep our eye on what matters: NO BAD TRADES.

Fire whoever. Scapgoat whoever. Embarass whoever.

JUST DONT MAKE ANY BAD TRADES

NO CHRIS PAUL!

Nalod
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11/14/2019  12:05 PM
stanleybostitch wrote:I'm with Nalod on this one. What is "culture"? It's nothing more than the behaviors and practices individuals and groups perform day-in and day-out. Changing culture is hard - it's why many companies are failing to make the pivot to our brave new digital world. So what behaviors have we engaged in in the past that contribute to the perception or reality that we have a crappy culture? The constant coaching changes, constant starphucking, and impatience. Maybe Mills isn't the guy, but to throw them all out now does more harm than good in that it puts us on the path to make the same mistakes we made in the past. We have to have patience here. Ideally Dolan sells, but short of that, wait until the offseason and then maybe bring in a 'czar' guy to run everything, though good luck getting Ujiri.

Good job. A "Culture of impatience" might be our rep league wide. By the time Mills/Perry got to KP the damage might have been to far gone? I don't know. What motivation would they have to destroy the relationship with KP? LIke most divorces it takes two.
I want to be consoled as much as anyone. Wins would be better than the quenched blood thirst of firing "those responsible"!

Nalod
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11/14/2019  12:06 PM
anrst wrote:all this front office dysfuntion is bad

but let's keep our eye on what matters: NO BAD TRADES.

Fire whoever. Scapgoat whoever. Embarass whoever.

JUST DONT MAKE ANY BAD TRADES

NO CHRIS PAUL!

Advice to knicks: Block all calls from Presti, Morey or Buford!

knicks1248
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11/14/2019  12:33 PM
anrst wrote:all this front office dysfuntion is bad

but let's keep our eye on what matters: NO BAD TRADES.

Fire whoever. Scapgoat whoever. Embarass whoever.

JUST DONT MAKE ANY BAD TRADES

NO CHRIS PAUL!

NOO GOOD ones either.

No Needle moving trades or signings,just moves that either set us back Talent wise, or keep us in the bottom of the standings.

Look at what we are doing to Randle, he has gotten better every yr, he comes to the knicks, and his numbers are worse

ES
arkrud
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11/14/2019  1:37 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
anrst wrote:all this front office dysfuntion is bad

but let's keep our eye on what matters: NO BAD TRADES.

Fire whoever. Scapgoat whoever. Embarass whoever.

JUST DONT MAKE ANY BAD TRADES

NO CHRIS PAUL!

NOO GOOD ones either.

No Needle moving trades or signings,just moves that either set us back Talent wise, or keep us in the bottom of the standings.

Look at what we are doing to Randle, he has gotten better every yr, he comes to the knicks, and his numbers are worse

What assets we had/have to do trades to move the needle? Non, nada.
Randle is over his head. He was 2nd-3rd option on average team and this looks like is his ceiling.
We get him so we must try to push him to another level.
Can he get there? Does not looks like this so far. But why not to try? We have nothing to lose.
FO decided to pass on cap-killing long contacts like Kemba to satisfy impatient fair weather fans and build the team conventional way.
The rest is noise. Who will coach this year and next 2 seasons, who will be tried on the roster, how many games we win is irrelevant.
Asset management, incremental improvement of our draft picks, looking for more talent in the appropriate timeline should be the focus.
And I believe it is.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Sambakick
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11/14/2019  11:52 PM
Why not make trades? Everyone we signed this offseason is eligible to be traded Dec 15th.

If Portland is desperate enough to sign Melo, maybe they give us a first for Portis or Morris.

Everything in moderation. Even moderation.
arkrud
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11/15/2019  12:29 AM
Sambakick wrote:Why not make trades? Everyone we signed this offseason is eligible to be traded Dec 15th.

If Portland is desperate enough to sign Melo, maybe they give us a first for Portis or Morris.

No doubt we will trade and this was the plan all along.
Some dudes will want out to join playoff teams.
If we will get some value we should go for it.
And then the youth will have plenty of minutes.
Portis, Morris, Ellington, Elf can have some value. Randle may also ask out.
Gibson is there to stay. RB will need to get healthy first so he can be dealt in off-season.
The goal is to build up our own assets. Just keep building and then who knows...

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
nykshaknbake
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11/15/2019  5:23 AM
Sambakick wrote:Not all rebuilds are equal. Take the NY Giants.... they kept Eli for this season - WHY? He's killing their salary cap. But they're rebuilding with young skill position standouts and even though they are on the right track... they took the slow train by holding on to Eli. That rebuild could've been done better.


Knicks were already re-buiding the right way but not all rebuilds are equal. They could've tossed in some of their draft capital from the KP trade and gone after Malcolm Brogdon. Why pinch pennies on Ellington+Bullock+Payton? Cost the same salary but Brogdon would've added 3 more wins by now. This rebuild can be done better.

I'm not sure the Giants were trying to rebuild. They just gave up 2 draft picks to rent Leonard Williams. They have brought in alot of aging and sadly ineffectual players.

Nalod
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11/15/2019  7:36 AM
Super important game last night. First was the Franks coming out party, and last night we saw Dennis get his groove going. Gotta start somewhere. Mitch was massively important. Foul trouble hurt him but he was important. Frank had a great block on KP where he was called on. I think he has it in for KP a bit. He was effective in limiting Luka down the stretch to two points. Those two when teh game was already in hand and knicks gave two points but not 3 pt potential. The win might have delayed the inevitable but at least there was no blow out and panic move by Dolan.
Dennis was the spark we needed. Against his old team was important. The Garden was rocking. It was a good night.
Sambakick
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11/15/2019  11:25 AM
nykshaknbake wrote:
Sambakick wrote:Not all rebuilds are equal. Take the NY Giants.... they kept Eli for this season - WHY? He's killing their salary cap. But they're rebuilding with young skill position standouts and even though they are on the right track... they took the slow train by holding on to Eli. That rebuild could've been done better.


Knicks were already re-buiding the right way but not all rebuilds are equal. They could've tossed in some of their draft capital from the KP trade and gone after Malcolm Brogdon. Why pinch pennies on Ellington+Bullock+Payton? Cost the same salary but Brogdon would've added 3 more wins by now. This rebuild can be done better.

I'm not sure the Giants were trying to rebuild. They just gave up 2 draft picks to rent Leonard Williams. They have brought in alot of aging and sadly ineffectual players.

Thats my point. Just cuz a team is rebuilding from the bottom doesn't mean you stick with that management team. They may have no idea how to do the job that they know needs to be done.

Everything in moderation. Even moderation.
Desperation

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