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Isiah and His Approach.....
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diderotn
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9/30/2004  1:34 PM
Some folks just don't understand or better yet don't care about success. You have to forgive them. Oh, could that be a jealous Nets fan posing on our board?
The true Knickabocker..........
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djsunyc
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9/30/2004  1:40 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by fishmike:

ah yes... I was wondering when Isiahfan would resurface. Nice to hear new and refreshing thoughts :)

Don't I get credit for keeping my Isiah related remarks in an Isiah related thread?

please, for the love of god everybody, NO MORE isiah threads :)
Kwazimodal
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9/30/2004  1:42 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Kwazimodal:
Posted by islesfan:



Sure, after another month and a half in street clothes



Better late then never.Isiah and Wilkens just got the job and were making alot of personel moves,try to give them some credit for giving him a fair chance to contribute.

He was Layden's #1 draft pick, isn't it fair to say that Sweetney was going to get a fair chance if Layden hadn't been fired?

Are we talking about the same person here? Im sorry but I just cant believe that Layden would have done a better job of developing Sweetney,he barely even tried.I give him props for making the pick but there is a difference between spotting talent and developing it.

Besides,with Layden's track record he probably would have packaged him in a deal for greg ostertag or someone like him who had six degrees of separation from utah.
djsunyc
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9/30/2004  1:44 PM
Posted by islesfan:

Its amazing how much people take out of nothing more than a PR move with the hiring of Starks. After the night they retired Ewing's number, when Starks received the 2nd biggest ovation of the night, Dolan wanted to bring back Starks in any capacity to quiet fan's unhappiness. That's why he's being hired, for good pub.

it is good pub but it could also possibly be the beginning of dolan actually starting to listen to the fans. first, after the reaction, hire starks, 2nd, fire layden. etc. i'm not saying that's the reason but it is a possiblity.
Bringing HOFers to work with players means nothing. Jordan came back to work with the Wiz, how did that turn out? Magic came back to coach the Lakers, how did that turn out? Kareem was tutoring Kandi-man, how did that turn out? I'm not even going to bother with people continually trying to credit Aguirre for Sweetney learning to be a pro in his rookie year and a strong work ethic that he's had his entire life. Just because you're a HOFer, doesn't mean you can teach young players.

not once did i hear anybody say anything positive about jordan as a player/coach from any of his players. but we've heard nothing but accolades about isiah, glymph, and aguirre from MANY players and a few bigtime players as well. i mean, if j.o. was going to go to the spurs if isiah wasn't around isn't a big enough indication of what his players thought of him, i don't know what is.
djsunyc
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9/30/2004  1:48 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Kwazimodal:
Posted by islesfan:



Sure, after another month and a half in street clothes



Better late then never.Isiah and Wilkens just got the job and were making alot of personel moves,try to give them some credit for giving him a fair chance to contribute.

He was Layden's #1 draft pick, isn't it fair to say that Sweetney was going to get a fair chance if Layden hadn't been fired?

by using his track records, the only previous 1st round example we could use is frank williams, and HE WAS BURIED behind the likes of ward and eisley. he had to actually fight his way into the rotation when it was clear to EVERYBODY that ward and eisley should not have been starting. and sweets was buried the likes of othella and spoon. this is a ridiculous statement even if it was jerry west who came in to replace layden.
islesfan
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9/30/2004  1:55 PM
Oliwakandi was the #1 pick overall, does Kareem get credit for that too? I've read that Oliwakandi wanted nothing to do with Kareem and Kareem was exasperated trying to coach him. The fact that he played better probably had nothing to do with him becoming a free agent.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
fishmike
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9/30/2004  2:02 PM
He was Layden's #1 draft pick, isn't it fair to say that Sweetney was going to get a fair chance if Layden hadn't been fired?
No. Now here is a spot Isiah shouldnt get too much credit because all he did was what any normal GM; evaluate the talent he had. Layden had KT, McDyess, KVH, Spoon and Harrington in front of his #1 pick on the depth chart at PF. Based on Layden's past move when do you think Sweetney's chance was coming? 2008?
I've read that Oliwakandi wanted nothing to do with Kareem and Kareem was exasperated trying to coach him. The fact that he played better probably had nothing to do with him becoming a free agent.
And you believe that? Where you in the gym with them? Where you a fly on the wall? Your not going to tell me you ACTUALLY believe it because some sports writer wrote it do you?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
islesfan
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9/30/2004  2:05 PM
Posted by Kwazimodal:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Kwazimodal:
Posted by islesfan:



Sure, after another month and a half in street clothes



Better late then never.Isiah and Wilkens just got the job and were making alot of personel moves,try to give them some credit for giving him a fair chance to contribute.

He was Layden's #1 draft pick, isn't it fair to say that Sweetney was going to get a fair chance if Layden hadn't been fired?

Are we talking about the same person here? Im sorry but I just cant believe that Layden would have done a better job of developing Sweetney,he barely even tried.I give him props for making the pick but there is a difference between spotting talent and developing it.

Besides,with Layden's track record he probably would have packaged him in a deal for greg ostertag or someone like him who had six degrees of separation from utah.

Layden had all of 1 1/2 months to develop Sweetney or he never would have?? Layden had to work in a win now or lose your job environment just before he got fired and he was supposed to take the time to develop a rookie who came in overweight and unprepared to play at the beginning of his rookie year?

You guys are being completely ridiculous if you're going to trash Layden for not developing Sweetney after just 1 month of his rookie year.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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9/30/2004  2:08 PM
Posted by fishmike:

And you believe that? Where you in the gym with them? Where you a fly on the wall? Your not going to tell me you ACTUALLY believe it because some sports writer wrote it do you?

Actually it was a quote coming directly from Kareem. I'd tend to believe it since he had nothing to gain from admitting that he couldn't get through to Kandi.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
diderotn
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9/30/2004  2:13 PM
What is the wrap on Kandi anyway? Is he a pot-head? His demeanor on the court sometimes turn me off about him. He appears slow at times.
The true Knickabocker..........
crzymdups
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9/30/2004  2:23 PM
Posted by islesfan:


Layden had all of 1 1/2 months to develop Sweetney or he never would have?? Layden had to work in a win now or lose your job environment just before he got fired and he was supposed to take the time to develop a rookie who came in overweight and unprepared to play at the beginning of his rookie year?

You guys are being completely ridiculous if you're going to trash Layden for not developing Sweetney after just 1 month of his rookie year.

Layden wasn't playing Frank or Sweetney and was holding out hope that Dyess would be some sort of savior. Frank finally got playing time because Ward and Eisley were so awful. But when it became clear Dyess was no savior, Layden was done.

Sweetney didn't play because Layden was trying to evaluate Dyess, keep Kurt relatively happy and play Othella enough to trade him. Also, don't forget, Sweetney's father died at the beginning of last year which slowed his development.

I have a feeling Layden was working on a trade for Dyess, but its really inarguable that the team environment was a disaster at the time he was fired. Sweetney may have gotten a chance, but neither Chaney's nor Layden's New York track record showed rookies getting a shot. Sweetney gets all the credit in the world for being a hard worker, but there's also no denying that Mark Aguirre has been very good teaching players like J O'neal, Artest, A Harrington, Nazr and Sweetney to improve their post game.

For all everyone saying that the Knicks have mortgaged their future, they have a lot of young, valuable pieces right now that we haven't had since in quite a while. And Isiah has still only been on the job for 10 months.

I agree that Starks' hiring is pure PR, but its' nicer to have him here than to have him go to Houston like Ewing did.
¿ △ ?
TheloniusMonk
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9/30/2004  2:28 PM
In Islesfan's perfect world we'd all despise Isiah Thomas so much to the point that we're picketting outside of the Garden. I knew he'd show up in this thread. A thread actually saying something positive about Isiah was just too much for the guy. Islesfan I know hearing compliments about this man was torturing you lol. Hey, you're at liberty to do whatever you want but I just find that DAMN funny. Say something good about anyone but Isiah becasue if you do here comes Islesfan to give you a million reasons why you shouldn't feel the way you feel. lol

"And that's all have to say about that"
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Kwazimodal
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9/30/2004  2:35 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Kwazimodal:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Kwazimodal:
Posted by islesfan:



Sure, after another month and a half in street clothes



Better late then never.Isiah and Wilkens just got the job and were making alot of personel moves,try to give them some credit for giving him a fair chance to contribute.

He was Layden's #1 draft pick, isn't it fair to say that Sweetney was going to get a fair chance if Layden hadn't been fired?

Are we talking about the same person here? Im sorry but I just cant believe that Layden would have done a better job of developing Sweetney,he barely even tried.I give him props for making the pick but there is a difference between spotting talent and developing it.

Besides,with Layden's track record he probably would have packaged him in a deal for greg ostertag or someone like him who had six degrees of separation from utah.

Layden had all of 1 1/2 months to develop Sweetney or he never would have?? Layden had to work in a win now or lose your job environment just before he got fired and he was supposed to take the time to develop a rookie who came in overweight and unprepared to play at the beginning of his rookie year?

You guys are being completely ridiculous if you're going to trash Layden for not developing Sweetney after just 1 month of his rookie year.

Ridiculous is trading a pick that could have gotten us Nene Hilario for a broken down Dice.He didnt even try to develop our highest pick in years.Like djsunyc wrote,FW wasnt getting a chance to take over the offense even though it was clear that eisley and ward werent cutting it.What in Layden's history with the Knicks makes you believe that he would have given Sweetney a fair chance to crack the rotation? The season was about 20 games old when he got fired,plenty of time to give Sweetney some real PT.

You got a beef with some of Isiah's moves (if not all of them)Ok, but defending the man who turned this franchise into a national joke is surprising to say the least.Ill take Isiah over Layden any day.
diderotn
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9/30/2004  2:39 PM
Could Islefan be Layden and Chenney posing as a guess on our board


Posted by TheloniusMonk:

In Islesfan's perfect world we'd all despise Isiah Thomas so much to the point that we're picketting outside of the Garden. I knew he'd show up in this thread. A thread actually saying something positive about Isiah was just too much for the guy. Islesfan I know hearing compliments about this man was torturing you lol. Hey, you're at liberty to do whatever you want but I just find that DAMN funny. Say something good about anyone but Isiah becasue if you do here comes Islesfan to give you a million reasons why you shouldn't feel the way you feel. lol

"And that's all have to say about that"
-F.G.
The true Knickabocker..........
newyorknewyork
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9/30/2004  3:22 PM
Layden had all of 1 1/2 months to develop Sweetney or he never would have?? Layden had to work in a win now or lose your job environment just before he got fired and he was supposed to take the time to develop a rookie who came in overweight and unprepared to play at the beginning of his rookie year?

You guys are being completely ridiculous if you're going to trash Layden for not developing Sweetney after just 1 month of his rookie year.

And why was the team in a win now or lose your job environment??? Because of the moves Layden did. He created that bad environment when he traded draft picks for Harrrington, Mark Jackson, Mcdyess and signed Shandon Anderson & Spoon to big long term contracts. Sweetney out of his own mouth said that he was completely lost during that period of time and didn't know what his role was. Also was out of shape he was actually getting worse. They should have been developing there LOTTO pick as soon as they drafted him. Then they wouldn't have had to depend on Dice as much who they trade Camby & another LOTTO pick for.

Zeke hasn't even been our GM for a yr yet and we are younger, more athletic, and more competitive. If Layden did the same moves you would probably be cheering Layden right as would I. If your willing to let Layden do the damage he did to the Knicks and still believe in his GM abilities then Y doesn't Zeke get the benifit???
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Bonn1997
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9/30/2004  3:55 PM
Islesfan: Layden had all of 1 1/2 months to develop Sweetney or he never would have?? Layden had to work in a win now or lose your job environment just before he got fired and he was supposed to take the time to develop a rookie who came in overweight and unprepared to play at the beginning of his rookie year?

You guys are being completely ridiculous if you're going to trash Layden for not developing Sweetney after just 1 month of his rookie year.
Actually, he had five months to work with Sweetney (July through December). See, under Isiah (but not Layden) the offseason actually matters and is a crucial time to work with players.

Diderton: Could Islefan be Layden and Chenney posing as a guess on our board
You're not the first person to pose that question

Nalod
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9/30/2004  4:15 PM
Funny, Isiah was fired partially for not doing enough in the summer.

Even funnier is that lenny is the coach, and all good or bad defers to Isiah. Like Lenny is some kind of puppet. Oh, he is a puppet. Good dresser too!

I think we have heard this arguement over and over again. Time and wins/loss will settle this over time.

Laydogs, gone and his teams been dismantled. We may never know his true genius!

Oh, Frank broke his wrist his rookie summer and really fell behind. He was not ready for the NBA, his rookie year was like being redshirted. And, laydens gone. The subject is MOOT.

It is what is is now. Isiah is golden until the team really screws up, but he still has a free pass or two left. If he succeeds, the city is his!
MS
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9/30/2004  5:27 PM
diderotn

You seriously have no idea what your talking about....The Rockets are rebuilding and have won two championships and been to the playoffs in the last ten years.

You think that hiring Jordan would have done anything for the Bulls, nope, he was an idot with the Wizards and would have been the same with the Bulls....Kwame Brown instead of Elton Brand, Rip for Stack

Wes Unsled worked out real well for Washington...

Giving someone a position means nothing, yes they should have given Ewing a job, but they didn't. ...Layden killed the Knicks, and if someone kills a team, its not because they didn't hire former players
islesfan
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9/30/2004  9:27 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:


Actually, he had five months to work with Sweetney (July through December). See, under Isiah (but not Layden) the offseason actually matters and is a crucial time to work with players.

Actually, the collective bargaining agreement prohibits teams from overseeing any offseason workouts with their non injured players. So outside of summer league and training camp, they had about 2 months with Sweetney before his rookie season started. I guess Layden was supposed to have made him a seasoned veteran in that 2 month time period. Especially with his job on the line.

So what workouts has Isiah been having with his players during the offseason? It must be a crucial time to work with them since they aren't even allowed to do so. Oh wait, maybe under Isiah (but not Layden or any other GM in the entire league) the NBA and the Players Association allows the CBA to be circumvented.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
fishmike
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9/30/2004  10:57 PM
I could see that... thats just how influential Isiah is.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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