4 year player in college, avged 9 pts, 7 assists. Not a big time player, but good coaches come from this demographic too.
Good cred as assistant and his Memphis tenure was mixed.
Can't say I disagreed with the hire but he has a higher expectation this year. Honeymoon is over, media will set a different tone and it will influence the fans.

He might his own idea about his prototypical PG is to be. I'd only guess that his affinity for Mudiay might be close. He obviously did not pass the grade here but the concept/ideal might be. Im guessing. DWade might be his ideal. Dennis is of ilk. Does that mean Payton/Frank are not valuable to him? I can't tell if he don't like Frank or Frank is frustrating the hell out of him!

Game one. Lets see how the drama unfolds. We got a back to back.

franco12 wrote:Mudiay! Did awesome with Fiz.

I think our front office is struggling to understand talent!

Frank and DSjr have been giant question marks from the time they entered the draft. I don't think you can pin that on Fiz.

Now - what I do want to SLAM Fiz for was starting Trier and RJ as the backcourt! And saying he had to look at the tape to determine if Payton would be starting tonight.

Really - WTF was he looking at during the game in SA? Because I think it was beyond evident that our team play dramatically improved with Payton over everyone else.

And to harp on this further - with what Payton did in the game - was there no sign in practice and the preseason games for Fiz and the coaches to see that? I mean, did he just turn into that overnight?

So - on the one hand Fish - I both agree and disagree. And maybe I agree fully, and we could argue that Mudiay thrived last year in spit of Fizdale.

Some want Fizdale gone and already hate him. I am more curious than anything else. This is the first year (here) where what he does really matters. He's very energetic. I am looking to see which players take steps forward. That being said when people are pushed they tend to lean on the familiar. However Fizdale has been pretty spoiled when it comes to NBA PG play, starting with Wade/Lebron then Conley.

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:Mudiay! Did awesome with Fiz.

I think our front office is struggling to understand talent!

Frank and DSjr have been giant question marks from the time they entered the draft. I don't think you can pin that on Fiz.

Now - what I do want to SLAM Fiz for was starting Trier and RJ as the backcourt! And saying he had to look at the tape to determine if Payton would be starting tonight.

Really - WTF was he looking at during the game in SA? Because I think it was beyond evident that our team play dramatically improved with Payton over everyone else.

And to harp on this further - with what Payton did in the game - was there no sign in practice and the preseason games for Fiz and the coaches to see that? I mean, did he just turn into that overnight?

So - on the one hand Fish - I both agree and disagree. And maybe I agree fully, and we could argue that Mudiay thrived last year in spit of Fizdale.

to be honest Im not really making a point, more asking a question. Saying "NO PG" since nobody "earned it" is puzzling as it doesnt seem to set the offense up for success and indeed it struggled mightily out of the gate.

Some want Fizdale gone and already hate him. I am more curious than anything else. This is the first year (here) where what he does really matters. He's very energetic. I am looking to see which players take steps forward. That being said when people are pushed they tend to lean on the familiar. However Fizdale has been pretty spoiled when it comes to NBA PG play, starting with Wade/Lebron then Conley.

I think its "basketball players" then straight up PG's. If you have a Steph Curry/Trae Young/Ja Morant then you have to respond with a player that can guard them. You could throw Scottie Pippen on them which is what Bulls did and used your PG as a spot up shooter. Paxton/BJ/Kerr..........Not fast or great defenders. Role was to shoot. That was Bulls definition.

an opponent with a strong PG, you go with a defender. Idea is by 4th quarter they are cooked. The game is 4 quarters and 48 min long. its a chess game. Not a sprint.

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:Mudiay! Did awesome with Fiz.

I think our front office is struggling to understand talent!

Frank and DSjr have been giant question marks from the time they entered the draft. I don't think you can pin that on Fiz.

Now - what I do want to SLAM Fiz for was starting Trier and RJ as the backcourt! And saying he had to look at the tape to determine if Payton would be starting tonight.

Really - WTF was he looking at during the game in SA? Because I think it was beyond evident that our team play dramatically improved with Payton over everyone else.

And to harp on this further - with what Payton did in the game - was there no sign in practice and the preseason games for Fiz and the coaches to see that? I mean, did he just turn into that overnight?

So - on the one hand Fish - I both agree and disagree. And maybe I agree fully, and we could argue that Mudiay thrived last year in spit of Fizdale.

to be honest Im not really making a point, more asking a question. Saying "NO PG" since nobody "earned it" is puzzling as it doesn't seem to set the offense up for success and indeed it struggled mightily out of the gate.

Some want Fizdale gone and already hate him. I am more curious than anything else. This is the first year (here) where what he does really matters. He's very energetic. I am looking to see which players take steps forward. That being said when people are pushed they tend to lean on the familiar. However Fizdale has been pretty spoiled when it comes to NBA PG play, starting with Wade/Lebron then Conley.

IMO Fiz is a 'THROW IT ON THE WALL AND SEE IF IT STICKS" coach

He is so caught up in positionless basketball that i don't think he looks at the position as a key traditional piece to a rotation.

Why would he be experimenting with so many players bringing the ball up when you have 3 point guards on your roster..

You want to put guys in a position to be successful, you want to give them their role and let them master it, but fiz thing is , push the ball, shoot 3's and organize the offense, read and react..

IMO there's a problem with him if he couldn't figure that Payton was the best option at PG, he has enough footage to know this, and he spent yrs in the film room...

fishmike wrote:He had Wade with the Heat
He had Mike Conley with Memphis

I am wondering if this is a position he's struggling to understand

To be fair. Fiz had Mudiay and Kadeem Allen. Again, he had Kadeem Allen.
As for this year (One game) I think Payton played extremely well and seemed to be doing what Fiz has been asking in pre season. Its clear Fiz wants his PG's to push in transition and be aggressive by speeding up play. He then wants them to get the many forwards, we picked up in FA, the ball in half court sets. I don't see anything wrong with this. Unfortunately, the guy he thought could do this the best has played extremely bad or/and is not looking like he is 100% healthy.

However, Fish brings up a good point, one thing we can watch is how Fiz treats and develops PG's. Think his experience with two mentioned can only be a positive. My question thus far has been how he always seems to like the competition at the PG position. This year we have three and with Barrett now in the mix 4. I always liked when my PG had the freedom to make mistakes. Specially when we are looking at 19 and 20 year old's that need developing. Don't think it is good for a PG to always be looking at the bench after a mistake. Specially considering PG's will make many mistakes. If you look at Frank, he has not had a stretch where he was given the reins to learn. If you look at Dennis, this is the first year the coach has a quick trigger. Is this good? I don't know. Maybe Fiz wants the guys that can perform under distress. But in reality, I think these young PG's need lots of opportunity to learn by their mistakes and build confidence by logging minutes before you can truly expect them to perform.

fishmike wrote:

Vmart wrote:He had nothing to do with LeBron or Wade. Wade was more products of Riley and SVG. LeBron is LeBron he knows basketball well beyond Fizdale. As far as Conley he took over a well established team and culture and he tore it down.
Now he is going to lean towards Payton which is predictable in the sense he basically hasn’t been able to develop talent and give talent a reason to thrive. Fiz is full of indecision and he lacks confidence in people. Fizdale is not coaching material by December fans will be calling for him to be fired.
Three point guards on board and he starts none of them. What does this say about Fiz? Did he give the team the best opportunity to win? Does he not trust his PGs to learn his system? Does he not believe in the team he has been given? Is he waiting for a savior to walk through the doors?

This guys is an absolute joke of a coach I’m shocked that such a knowledgeable fan base can’t see it.

fits narrative

It’s not a narrative I have no agenda. The reality is three PGs and not one of them started. If you look at that it reeks no system. You want answers so you created a thread. When someone gives it to you. And it doesn’t fit your narrative you call the others narrative driven.

Fizdale tried to look the genius with his ridiculous starting lineup and fell flat on his face and he didn’t learn from his mistake to boot.

fishmike wrote:He had Wade with the Heat
He had Mike Conley with Memphis

I am wondering if this is a position he's struggling to understand

In Miami the pgs were Chalmers and Nole, Bibby for a bit too. Though the parallel to Wade is interesting since he and LBJ handled the ball so much one thought of them as the pg

I don't think it's the position so much as his philosophy and identity. Heat team ran through superstars, not pgs. IN some sense they didn't need to think too much. 3 guys dominated the touches. The one with the best matchups got more touches. Two of the stars were willing passers and the third was pretty good too.

Fast forward: no Lebron, no Wade, no Conley making the decisions on the floor in real time and he's exposed. Hopefully he can get them to play intsense for 48 minutes on both ends to utilize the team depth. There is no superstar to rely on

I wish there were a pg whisperer and shooting specialist on the staff. If there are at the moment, they should be fired and we should instead get ones who are effective

franco12 wrote:Mudiay! Did awesome with Fiz.

I think our front office is struggling to understand talent!

Frank and DSjr have been giant question marks from the time they entered the draft. I don't think you can pin that on Fiz.

Now - what I do want to SLAM Fiz for was starting Trier and RJ as the backcourt! And saying he had to look at the tape to determine if Payton would be starting tonight.

Really - WTF was he looking at during the game in SA? Because I think it was beyond evident that our team play dramatically improved with Payton over everyone else.

And to harp on this further - with what Payton did in the game - was there no sign in practice and the preseason games for Fiz and the coaches to see that? I mean, did he just turn into that overnight?

So - on the one hand Fish - I both agree and disagree. And maybe I agree fully, and we could argue that Mudiay thrived last year in spit of Fizdale.

Not agreeing at all with the bold. Mud got opportunity and EFG% went up but realistically he proved he's a backup at best -- not smart with the ball at all!

I think Fizzdale had a method to his madness. Miami ran the game through Wade and LBJ and i think he was trying to channel that. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if Fizz tries this again. RJ is not a great shooter. WHy do you want a pg bringing the ball up with RJ camped out in the corner or whatever? It might be better with RJ forcing the pace -- he does seem to be a willing passer, and unlike our pgs he does pose a bigger threat with the ball in his hands

In addition Fizz had the problem that all three real pgs were sucking ass when it came to outside shooting. Payton really sucks as a shooter. Everytime he shot i held my breadth as they were flat as hell

So while the team played better with Payton in game 1, i am sure we will be calling for his head if he starts pulling out those 1-8 games

And to be sure, I am down on Fizz, but his experiment IMO had a certain logic to it

fishmike wrote:

Vmart wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Vmart wrote:He had nothing to do with LeBron or Wade. Wade was more products of Riley and SVG. LeBron is LeBron he knows basketball well beyond Fizdale. As far as Conley he took over a well established team and culture and he tore it down.
Now he is going to lean towards Payton which is predictable in the sense he basically hasn’t been able to develop talent and give talent a reason to thrive. Fiz is full of indecision and he lacks confidence in people. Fizdale is not coaching material by December fans will be calling for him to be fired.
Three point guards on board and he starts none of them. What does this say about Fiz? Did he give the team the best opportunity to win? Does he not trust his PGs to learn his system? Does he not believe in the team he has been given? Is he waiting for a savior to walk through the doors?

This guys is an absolute joke of a coach I’m shocked that such a knowledgeable fan base can’t see it.

fits narrative

It’s not a narrative I have no agenda. The reality is three PGs and not one of them started. If you look at that it reeks no system. You want answers so you created a thread. When someone gives it to you. And it doesn’t fit your narrative you call the others narrative driven.

Fizdale tried to look the genius with his ridiculous starting lineup and fell flat on his face and he didn’t learn from his mistake to boot.

I didnt want answers... I wanted discussion. Some of which I got. You say the same things all the time, Fizdale is clueless and Frank is the key to everything. So when the team's PG savior gets yanked after like 2.5 minutes of terrible play its pretty clear what your thoughts on the situation are going to be. You literally same the same things about the same things every time you post. Agenda, narrative, label it anyway you are comfortable.

Nalod wrote:I don't think Mike is saying Fiz had a hand in Wade being a HOF. but he was on the coaching staff.

You work with what you are familiar with. When the Heat were winning and Fizdale was on the staff who were the PGs? That is all I am saying... not the Fizdale is bad, but we may be seeing a guy navigate the hardest thing in basketball coaching to do... install a good offence without established guard play.

Then you can say he hasn’t done his job in establishing a consistent guard play.