This is the preseason, around 28 teams scored more than the Knicks on average. 31 teams, to include some foreign teams, had a better team FG% than the Knicks. 24 teams better with 3 pt%. 25 teams averaged more assists per game. 33 teams with more steals per game. 22 teams less personal fouls. Average pts against.

Positives, Randle and Morris look solid and mostly consistent in effort and stats. When not fouling, Robinson impacts the game interior D, so far the team is weak inside and the perimeter. Opponents will just keep penetrating and scoring or dishing out for more open 3 pt shots. Trier plays with heart and fire despite silly fouls tonight, even if it is iso ball. The Knicks were in the top 5 for total rebounds. Top 5 in turnovers per game. Top 10 blocks.

Overall, this team lacks the talent to consistently win against average to good opponents. Barring a few trades, it is going to be a long year.

And fans are wanting more. Nalod is here to remind you that:

the team won 17 games last season. Randle is an upgrade. not an allstar. Morris is tough, but is not a closer.
Payton-Frank-Dennis. All not quite there.

Willis regurgitates the “Un-named grumbler about playing time”. Media just making fans more upset. This is not to say anyone should be in denial. In fact most of us here in the UK should more than understanding of the reality of this team and just how its not that good. My reality is not all of the new guys will be here come trade deadline. I expect to start badly. The priority will shift to the young guys, and Frank will not shine as we are not engrained in a system.

Fiz has a 5 year contract. This is the start of his second season. I don’t like my thoughts but calling for new FO and coaches don’t change the talent. We have our picks, we have ability to make trades, and reality bites.

Devout fans know its a pig even before you put lipstick on it. If you thought otherwise thats a nice fantasy. We are all adults here, we know words and statements are not absolutes. Might be good intentions. But shyt happens. One day good will.

I think Fiz is very overrated.

NYStateOfMind wrote:It is not unrealistic expectations by some fans, but we had $70 million dollars to put up a much better product and I think that is a fail so far. Did I expect the Knicks to compete for a chip, no way! Be in the hunt for 8th playoff slot, yes.

I'd take Rubio over all these PGs and he can't shoot. We haven't had a knockdown 3 pt shooter since Novac and he couldn't create. How I wish we had a Reddick or Korver. Teams will not respect this team in the paint nor at the garden, leading to more open 3 pt shots. Ellington is okay, but we can't shoot 3 for 3 pt shots and expect to come out ahead most nights against better talent. Our talent level improved a notch in a few areas, but not enough for the temporary money spent this offseason. Trades will happen and most 1 year contracts will not make it back for next season.

I like Randle, given we have an average or better PG. I really like Morris' toughness and nice shot. I see glimpses from RJ, but he needs to learn to shoot with the right hand on the way to the hoop. Mitchell, ugh, I hope it is maturity and he will fix his foul problems. He might find himself on the bench more than he wants until he grows up. Knox, inconsistent. Trier a good 6th man and/or bench player. Payton bench type. Smith should be playing much better than he has, he is missing something. Frank, unless a bench defensive stopper, no room for him. Portis/Gibson would be more effective with a better PG. The rest meh, no impact potential or g leaguer types for now.

Agree on players we have.
About spending 71 mils better...hmm... on what?
NBA team has minimum to spend. The rest Dolan could buy some stack or waste on Straight Shot.
What do you prefer?

PassTheBall wrote:Yep. This brand of basketball is very hard to watch. Isolation plays nearly every possession. No defense when Mitch and frank are on the bench.

I think Fiz is very overrated.

He's not a head coach, he's a good assistant coach

He came to NY with no identity other than being a cool guy who lets players play the way they feel comfortable playing.

Like why would you play a rookie (Rj) 40 min when there's 6 to 7 other guys your trying to evaluate.

Iggy could have gotten more min, frank could have gotten more, and we didn't see a peep form any of the 2 way guys.

That's why the grumble of mins came up in..

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

PassTheBall wrote:Yep. This brand of basketball is very hard to watch. Isolation plays nearly every possession. No defense when Mitch and frank are on the bench.

I think Fiz is very overrated.

He's not a head coach, he's a good assistant coach

He came to NY with no identity other than being a cool guy who lets players play the way they feel comfortable playing.

Like why would you play a rookie (Rj) 40 min when there's 6 to 7 other guys your trying to evaluate.

Iggy could have gotten more min, frank could have gotten more, and we didn't see a peep form any of the 2 way guys.

That's why the grumble of mins came up in..

Maybe Fiz and this team of developmental coach's all agree the best way to develop blue chip rookies is to play them. Knox, Mitch and now RJ. The results are not apparent but there might be a plan.
It would appear Iggy does not play the same position as Frank. I think knicks have enough of what they have seen in Frank to make up their minds on him. What is still in the air you might guess as the rotation to start the season. I agree with others who state this will be a fluid situation.

Its also possilble the "grumble" is not due to a coaching error or incompetence as you love to suggest. You don't know do you? So you take the players side as it aligns with your distain for Fiz.

I've been a defender of Fizdale. I thought he got guys to play hard last year. We were in a lot of games early, and with more talent (like a healthy KP), I thought we could have been 500 mid way through the year.

It certainly ended poorly, but dumping your star player to clear cap is going to do that.

However, the little that I have watched of the preseason, where we're struggling against bad teams is worrying. I think (and I could be wrong) we have the talent to do better.

Also curious why we had an option for 6 preseason games and opted for 4.

Think about our roster, and who on it could be part of a future, theoretical championship squad? It's RJ and Robinson, and that is pretty much it. Everyone else is filler or likely not part of the long term here.

Nalod wrote:

franco12 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

PassTheBall wrote:Yep. This brand of basketball is very hard to watch. Isolation plays nearly every possession. No defense when Mitch and frank are on the bench.

I think Fiz is very overrated.

He's not a head coach, he's a good assistant coach

He came to NY with no identity other than being a cool guy who lets players play the way they feel comfortable playing.

Like why would you play a rookie (Rj) 40 min when there's 6 to 7 other guys your trying to evaluate.

Iggy could have gotten more min, frank could have gotten more, and we didn't see a peep form any of the 2 way guys.

That's why the grumble of mins came up in..

Maybe Fiz and this team of developmental coach's all agree the best way to develop blue chip rookies is to play them. Knox, Mitch and now RJ. The results are not apparent but there might be a plan.
It would appear Iggy does not play the same position as Frank. I think knicks have enough of what they have seen in Frank to make up their minds on him. What is still in the air you might guess as the rotation to start the season. I agree with others who state this will be a fluid situation.

Its also possilble the "grumble" is not due to a coaching error or incompetence as you love to suggest. You don't know do you? So you take the players side as it aligns with your distain for Fiz.

I've been a defender of Fizdale. I thought he got guys to play hard last year. We were in a lot of games early, and with more talent (like a healthy KP), I thought we could have been 500 mid way through the year.

It certainly ended poorly, but dumping your star player to clear cap is going to do that.

However, the little that I have watched of the preseason, where we're struggling against bad teams is worrying. I think (and I could be wrong) we have the talent to do better.

Also curious why we had an option for 6 preseason games and opted for 4.

Think about our roster, and who on it could be part of a future, theoretical championship squad? It's RJ and Robinson, and that is pretty much it. Everyone else is filler or likely not part of the long term here.

Good points. I think the door is still open for Knox.
I don’t really care about preseason unless there are blowouts. Stinker in second game with Wiz. All teams have stinkers.

Its a new season with a lot of new faces. In my mind its a new chapter. The games tell the story and its why I tune in.

I had no idea that was an option, but that's a damn good question, especially knowing your bringing in almost an entire new roster.

But there are so many head scratching Moves Fiz makes, he is definitely setting himself up to get fired, nooo I don't want him to get fired, but he is not looking like the answer

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

PassTheBall wrote:Yep. This brand of basketball is very hard to watch. Isolation plays nearly every possession. No defense when Mitch and frank are on the bench.

I think Fiz is very overrated.

He's not a head coach, he's a good assistant coach

He came to NY with no identity other than being a cool guy who lets players play the way they feel comfortable playing.

Like why would you play a rookie (Rj) 40 min when there's 6 to 7 other guys your trying to evaluate.

Iggy could have gotten more min, frank could have gotten more, and we didn't see a peep form any of the 2 way guys.

That's why the grumble of mins came up in..

Maybe Fiz and this team of developmental coach's all agree the best way to develop blue chip rookies is to play them. Knox, Mitch and now RJ. The results are not apparent but there might be a plan.
It would appear Iggy does not play the same position as Frank. I think knicks have enough of what they have seen in Frank to make up their minds on him. What is still in the air you might guess as the rotation to start the season. I agree with others who state this will be a fluid situation.

Its also possilble the "grumble" is not due to a coaching error or incompetence as you love to suggest. You don't know do you? So you take the players side as it aligns with your distain for Fiz.

I've been a defender of Fizdale. I thought he got guys to play hard last year. We were in a lot of games early, and with more talent (like a healthy KP), I thought we could have been 500 mid way through the year.

It certainly ended poorly, but dumping your star player to clear cap is going to do that.

However, the little that I have watched of the preseason, where we're struggling against bad teams is worrying. I think (and I could be wrong) we have the talent to do better.

Also curious why we had an option for 6 preseason games and opted for 4.

Think about our roster, and who on it could be part of a future, theoretical championship squad? It's RJ and Robinson, and that is pretty much it. Everyone else is filler or likely not part of the long term here.

what you are saying is not unfair, but I think you are missing the value in developing role players. Those are important as well, and critical to make the top tier talent stand up. Also important in the development of the players around them. The whole team matters. The elite guys are the hardest to get, so value-wise it makes sense they get the most attention. Draymond is a great example of developing a role player and investing time in a group of players, vs. just starting at the top and plugging holes. A lot of this isnt even a team's choice. We pick 2 and we are building the team around Ja. We were lucky to be 3 and get RJ who certainly looks like a man child with a handle. Knox is raw but like his talent and hops. Dont poopoo Randle. Top Kentucky recruit, would have been a top lottery pick if he wasnt hurt. He's just coming into his own and working hard. He's already an eff% scorer and good rebounder. If he improves defensively (effort looks good so far) and continues to find teammates he could be a core guy as well. The other guy because of his skill set is Frank. Hopefully he's our Draymond. Look at how bad Green was offensively his first few years. If Frank gets stronger we would have a guy who can guard 3-4 spots on the floor, hit clutch shots and run an offense (a guy can dream)

Agree, that you have to develop players with different roles. Btw, in terms of Draymond, you fail to mention that GS had the luxury of not needing Green to score since they had those guys named Curry, Thompson and KD. Unfortunately, none of those guys are on the Knicks or on most NBA teams. Who's to say that Draymond is not over rated due to having those players as support. Also, think you are trying to once again defend Frank. Most agree Frank can be a good player. Problem is, even Draymond had more to offer than just defense. He generated offense by cutting and finishing around basket, rebounded extremely well, and even developed a 3pt shot once in a while. All things you just can mention that Frank still needs to add. Just don't understand why some can't deal with the fact he still needs to learn. And the fact that if he does not, he will not be a part of any starting line up. Just like any other young player with weaknesses.

IMO, We don't have anything yet in any of our players that show they will be integral parts of a playoff team. No matter how much we try to build up small positive traits of any of our players. The only thing we can hope is that some of our draft picks develop and once they do the Knicks don't screw the relationship up like they did with KP. We also have to hope that Randle takes next step up during his tenure here. Other than that, we just have whole bunch of vets that were average and thus have traveled the NBA merry go round. And a whole bunch of young guys that we have no idea how they will turn out. Time will tell if all these pieces can win a game. Like every year in the last 6, we can all claim what is going to happen but the reality is that we just have as many questions as any previous year. No matter which players fans cling their hopes with.

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

PassTheBall wrote:Yep. This brand of basketball is very hard to watch. Isolation plays nearly every possession. No defense when Mitch and frank are on the bench.

I think Fiz is very overrated.

He's not a head coach, he's a good assistant coach

He came to NY with no identity other than being a cool guy who lets players play the way they feel comfortable playing.

Like why would you play a rookie (Rj) 40 min when there's 6 to 7 other guys your trying to evaluate.

Iggy could have gotten more min, frank could have gotten more, and we didn't see a peep form any of the 2 way guys.

That's why the grumble of mins came up in..

Maybe Fiz and this team of developmental coach's all agree the best way to develop blue chip rookies is to play them. Knox, Mitch and now RJ. The results are not apparent but there might be a plan.
It would appear Iggy does not play the same position as Frank. I think knicks have enough of what they have seen in Frank to make up their minds on him. What is still in the air you might guess as the rotation to start the season. I agree with others who state this will be a fluid situation.

Its also possilble the "grumble" is not due to a coaching error or incompetence as you love to suggest. You don't know do you? So you take the players side as it aligns with your distain for Fiz.

I've been a defender of Fizdale. I thought he got guys to play hard last year. We were in a lot of games early, and with more talent (like a healthy KP), I thought we could have been 500 mid way through the year.

It certainly ended poorly, but dumping your star player to clear cap is going to do that.

However, the little that I have watched of the preseason, where we're struggling against bad teams is worrying. I think (and I could be wrong) we have the talent to do better.

Also curious why we had an option for 6 preseason games and opted for 4.

Think about our roster, and who on it could be part of a future, theoretical championship squad? It's RJ and Robinson, and that is pretty much it. Everyone else is filler or likely not part of the long term here.

what you are saying is not unfair, but I think you are missing the value in developing role players. Those are important as well, and critical to make the top tier talent stand up. Also important in the development of the players around them. The whole team matters. The elite guys are the hardest to get, so value-wise it makes sense they get the most attention. Draymond is a great example of developing a role player and investing time in a group of players, vs. just starting at the top and plugging holes. A lot of this isnt even a team's choice. We pick 2 and we are building the team around Ja. We were lucky to be 3 and get RJ who certainly looks like a man child with a handle. Knox is raw but like his talent and hops. Dont poopoo Randle. Top Kentucky recruit, would have been a top lottery pick if he wasnt hurt. He's just coming into his own and working hard. He's already an eff% scorer and good rebounder. If he improves defensively (effort looks good so far) and continues to find teammates he could be a core guy as well. The other guy because of his skill set is Frank. Hopefully he's our Draymond. Look at how bad Green was offensively his first few years. If Frank gets stronger we would have a guy who can guard 3-4 spots on the floor, hit clutch shots and run an offense (a guy can dream)

Agree, that you have to develop players with different roles. Btw, in terms of Draymond, you fail to mention that GS had the luxury of not needing Green to score since they had those guys named Curry, Thompson and KD. Unfortunately, none of those guys are on the Knicks or on most NBA teams. Who's to say that Draymond is not over rated due to having those players as support. Also, think you are trying to once again defend Frank. Most agree Frank can be a good player. Problem is, even Draymond had more to offer than just defense. He generated offense by cutting and finishing around basket, rebounded extremely well, and even developed a 3pt shot once in a while. All things you just can mention that Frank still needs to add. Just don't understand why some can't deal with the fact he still needs to learn. And the fact that if he does not, he will not be a part of any starting line up. Just like any other young player with weaknesses.

IMO, We don't have anything yet in any of our players that show they will be integral parts of a playoff team. No matter how much we try to build up small positive traits of any of our players. The only thing we can hope is that some of our draft picks develop and once they do the Knicks don't screw the relationship up like they did with KP. We also have to hope that Randle takes next step up during his tenure here. Other than that, we just have whole bunch of vets that were average and thus have traveled the NBA merry go round. And a whole bunch of young guys that we have no idea how they will turn out. Time will tell if all these pieces can win a game. Like every year in the last 6, we can all claim what is going to happen but the reality is that we just have as many questions as any previous year. No matter which players fans cling their hopes with.

Draymond talks alot about how he was allowed to make mistakes and develop there. Im not defending Frank at all... he's got to defend himself with good play. Draymond is just an example of a great player who started slow and never became great on offense, but really started at level zero there by NBA standards. The enticing thing about Frank is his position and body type. It would be rare and game changing asset, but obv not if he's shooting 35%

Would agree with that. Not too many players have come out to be immediate All Stars. Do not think anyone really knows when its time to give up on a kid. Problem is that once a team does it basically dooms that player regardless if it was warranted. Gotta give these young kids at 19, 20 at least 5 years.

Well, a real PG would have been a great start, not a bench PG who wasn't wanted on their current team, plus last year's rejects. Brogdon, Rubio, even would have taken a short term deal on Isaiah Smith. SGs, Satoransky, and Reddick(Duke connection) were available. Satoransky won the PG job with the Bulls. He is a 40% 3 pt shooter, averaged 5 assists as a SG with Washington. Any of those guys would have been a better pickup than Payton, keeping Frank and hoping D Smith emerges. We thought the same for Mudiay, he improved slightly but didn't blossom. I'm okay with Morris and Randle. Not so much on Bullock over Vinsanity, Ellington over a Danny Green type. Unclear if there was a better option than Portis.

I'm not saying we could have got them all, some might be in chip chaser mentality right now. So I feel yes, we could have spent more wisely.

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

PassTheBall wrote:Yep. This brand of basketball is very hard to watch. Isolation plays nearly every possession. No defense when Mitch and frank are on the bench.

I think Fiz is very overrated.

He's not a head coach, he's a good assistant coach

He came to NY with no identity other than being a cool guy who lets players play the way they feel comfortable playing.

Like why would you play a rookie (Rj) 40 min when there's 6 to 7 other guys your trying to evaluate.

Iggy could have gotten more min, frank could have gotten more, and we didn't see a peep form any of the 2 way guys.

That's why the grumble of mins came up in..

Maybe Fiz and this team of developmental coach's all agree the best way to develop blue chip rookies is to play them. Knox, Mitch and now RJ. The results are not apparent but there might be a plan.
It would appear Iggy does not play the same position as Frank. I think knicks have enough of what they have seen in Frank to make up their minds on him. What is still in the air you might guess as the rotation to start the season. I agree with others who state this will be a fluid situation.

Its also possilble the "grumble" is not due to a coaching error or incompetence as you love to suggest. You don't know do you? So you take the players side as it aligns with your distain for Fiz.

I've been a defender of Fizdale. I thought he got guys to play hard last year. We were in a lot of games early, and with more talent (like a healthy KP), I thought we could have been 500 mid way through the year.

It certainly ended poorly, but dumping your star player to clear cap is going to do that.

However, the little that I have watched of the preseason, where we're struggling against bad teams is worrying. I think (and I could be wrong) we have the talent to do better.

Also curious why we had an option for 6 preseason games and opted for 4.

Think about our roster, and who on it could be part of a future, theoretical championship squad? It's RJ and Robinson, and that is pretty much it. Everyone else is filler or likely not part of the long term here.

what you are saying is not unfair, but I think you are missing the value in developing role players. Those are important as well, and critical to make the top tier talent stand up. Also important in the development of the players around them. The whole team matters. The elite guys are the hardest to get, so value-wise it makes sense they get the most attention. Draymond is a great example of developing a role player and investing time in a group of players, vs. just starting at the top and plugging holes. A lot of this isnt even a team's choice. We pick 2 and we are building the team around Ja. We were lucky to be 3 and get RJ who certainly looks like a man child with a handle. Knox is raw but like his talent and hops. Dont poopoo Randle. Top Kentucky recruit, would have been a top lottery pick if he wasnt hurt. He's just coming into his own and working hard. He's already an eff% scorer and good rebounder. If he improves defensively (effort looks good so far) and continues to find teammates he could be a core guy as well. The other guy because of his skill set is Frank. Hopefully he's our Draymond. Look at how bad Green was offensively his first few years. If Frank gets stronger we would have a guy who can guard 3-4 spots on the floor, hit clutch shots and run an offense (a guy can dream)

Agree, that you have to develop players with different roles. Btw, in terms of Draymond, you fail to mention that GS had the luxury of not needing Green to score since they had those guys named Curry, Thompson and KD. Unfortunately, none of those guys are on the Knicks or on most NBA teams. Who's to say that Draymond is not over rated due to having those players as support. Also, think you are trying to once again defend Frank. Most agree Frank can be a good player. Problem is, even Draymond had more to offer than just defense. He generated offense by cutting and finishing around basket, rebounded extremely well, and even developed a 3pt shot once in a while. All things you just can mention that Frank still needs to add. Just don't understand why some can't deal with the fact he still needs to learn. And the fact that if he does not, he will not be a part of any starting line up. Just like any other young player with weaknesses.

IMO, We don't have anything yet in any of our players that show they will be integral parts of a playoff team. No matter how much we try to build up small positive traits of any of our players. The only thing we can hope is that some of our draft picks develop and once they do the Knicks don't screw the relationship up like they did with KP. We also have to hope that Randle takes next step up during his tenure here. Other than that, we just have whole bunch of vets that were average and thus have traveled the NBA merry go round. And a whole bunch of young guys that we have no idea how they will turn out. Time will tell if all these pieces can win a game. Like every year in the last 6, we can all claim what is going to happen but the reality is that we just have as many questions as any previous year. No matter which players fans cling their hopes with.

Draymond talks alot about how he was allowed to make mistakes and develop there. Im not defending Frank at all... he's got to defend himself with good play. Draymond is just an example of a great player who started slow and never became great on offense, but really started at level zero there by NBA standards. The enticing thing about Frank is his position and body type. It would be rare and game changing asset, but obv not if he's shooting 35%

Would agree with that. Not too many players have come out to be immediate All Stars. Do not think anyone really knows when its time to give up on a kid. Problem is that once a team does it basically dooms that player regardless if it was warranted. Gotta give these young kids at 19, 20 at least 5 years.

It's hard to give any player 5 yrs if the team isn't getting better has a whole...

It's been 6 yrs with no playoffs, so it's tough to say your going to sacrifice another 5 developing role players, because role players are what make up 85% of NBA players, there almost a dime a dozen

Shumpert coming in looked like the next sprewell, 5 yrs later he didn't look much better.

You think Houston was crying when the gave up on Lowry, but utah was when haywood gave up on them.

the window should always be 3 yrs, for everyone, player, coach, GM, and presidents.