Knixkik wrote:Gotta go with Payton for now.

DSjr is a scoring guard who doesn't do enough outside of scoring, and is better off as 6th man.

Frank looks the part and is lockdown defensively but offensively it's like playing 4 on 5 out there until he gets some confidence. We need some semblance of scoring ability at the point.

good post.

Frank and DSjr both bring good things when playing well. Both are ready to contribute. Neither are ready to lead. Payton isnt a star but he's steady... ish. He's a poor man's Ray Felton. He's young enough to show some upside, especially at PG but this is most likely a stop gap move to force competition and nothing more. Payton isnt a "Perry guy" he's a guy that Perry knows. Especially in terms of chemistry you lean towards the familiar. I dont understand why this is so hard to see and everyone assumes its some kind of under the table loyalty.

Start Elf. DS for scoring off the bench. Frank's defense will get him on the floor, possibly even in crunch time. Frank and DS should be getting fighting in practice for Elf's minutes. This is logical and a straightforward approach.

KP and RJ are top picks and you hope are franchise players. Frank/DS/Knox are mid lottery and have talent but not sure things and come with growing pains. Let em grow. Doesnt have to be at everyone else's expense.

Vmart wrote:I have to go with Frank. While most here are enamored with scoring I prefer a defensive mindset from my point guard and a pass first outlook. A player that rewards his teammates and keeps them on their toes because they know their point guard is more about them then about getting his.

As a Knicks fan we have gone the route of a scoring PG and the results were almost always better when the Knicks had a team oriented point guard. I would go 1.Frank 2. DSJ and Payton in third place.

Fiz can decide to go with 2 defense minded PGs [DD], 2 offensive minded PGs[OO], or 1 defensive minded and the other offensive-minded[OD].

The model and rationale for DD might go something like this: The PG should facilitate making everyone else better - the benefit is that the scoring will remain in the hands of those we traded for *to score* and keeping the other team honest means closer, more winnable opportunities.

It also means the four on the floor have consistent expectations offensively and defensively. They will always get theirs first. Less thinking, less stress, less unpredictability.

This option also speaks to load management. Getting Barrett opportunities to rest periodically can mean either sitting a game out or playing third string PG situationally. This opens up minutes at the two/three and gives Fizdale the opportunity to saturate a lineup with offense when defense isn't the issue.

The DD also gives Fizdale a firewall from criticism. PGs who manage the floor on both ends better are less likely to create or expose embarrassing weaknesses. While the PGs may be light scorers, its a given not an exception. Tweak the offense.

The model for an OO PG strategy is that it emulates a D'Antoni strategy - sporadic defense but win by scoring as much as possible. Your fans will need an appetite for porous defense [given our current roster] and sloppy games.

This may be the worst way to develop young players if you ever expect two way players to emerge. PGs will inevitably be accused of selfish play and selfish play can be contagious.

The OD model *sounds* balanced but almost requires dual squads. Interjecting a defensive PG can be less disruptive that injecting an offensive PG in play. It introduces uncertainty of the role players expect to assume. "We were executing one way, now what". It also introduces counter move cycles so that player mixes are unnatural. More likely to add confusion and second-guessing.

If I'm coaching, I like a DD tag team. Put your trust in the PGs to deliver the goods. My attention can focus on matchups and adjustments elsewhere. I'm building up good habits. My scorers are getting their stats, building value and maybe demanding NBA achievement considerations.

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Vmart wrote:I have to go with Frank. While most here are enamored with scoring I prefer a defensive mindset from my point guard and a pass first outlook. A player that rewards his teammates and keeps them on their toes because they know their point guard is more about them then about getting his.

As a Knicks fan we have gone the route of a scoring PG and the results were almost always better when the Knicks had a team oriented point guard. I would go 1.Frank 2. DSJ and Payton in third place.

who knew

I was surprised myself.

In other shocking news, I'm hoping they sign Melo and ask him to play PG.

Melo at PG 😂😂😂

That means, you go with Peyton or Frank. Peyton is steady. Better floor leader but if last night was an indicator of the playbook, it will be hard for a PG to make this organized. We looked soooo out of control out there! PG passes from mid court and the play is set after him, so I don’t see a traditional setup at all. In such case, whoever starts doesn’t matter as a general because this offense is starting somewhere else.

I want to buy into what Fiz is doing, but all I see is a mad scientist who has been given reigns over a team with so low expectations he can do anything he wants and it won’t matter.

Wouldn’t surprise me if we finish again with 17 wins.

I’d pick Frank because I still believe in his potential, but who knows that is the criteria anymore.

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Gotta go with Payton for now.

DSjr is a scoring guard who doesn't do enough outside of scoring, and is better off as 6th man.

Frank looks the part and is lockdown defensively but offensively it's like playing 4 on 5 out there until he gets some confidence. We need some semblance of scoring ability at the point.

this 100%

good post.

Frank and DSjr both bring good things when playing well. Both are ready to contribute. Neither are ready to lead. Payton isnt a star but he's steady... ish. He's a poor man's Ray Felton. He's young enough to show some upside, especially at PG but this is most likely a stop gap move to force competition and nothing more. Payton isnt a "Perry guy" he's a guy that Perry knows. Especially in terms of chemistry you lean towards the familiar. I dont understand why this is so hard to see and everyone assumes its some kind of under the table loyalty.

Start Elf. DS for scoring off the bench. Frank's defense will get him on the floor, possibly even in crunch time. Frank and DS should be getting fighting in practice for Elf's minutes. This is logical and a straightforward approach.

KP and RJ are top picks and you hope are franchise players. Frank/DS/Knox are mid lottery and have talent but not sure things and come with growing pains. Let em grow. Doesnt have to be at everyone else's expense.

What up Fish. If the bold is true, lets trade him ASAP!! Would agree that if your looking for the steadiest PG and most experienced one then you go with Payton. Kid can dish. Although, as you said, if we get get logical. then Smith will be the starter. After all, logically, they traded their Franchise player for flexibility, picks and Smith a guy they thought had a future. If that is the case then the future should be given a chance to start.
Also, logically, it does not seem like Payton, after 5 average years, is the long term solution to a creating a playoff roster.

Whats funny to me is that Smith has had a good first two years. At the age of 19 and 20. And at the most difficult position in basketball to learn. Yet some on here are moving on due to one bad pre season game. Even after showing quite a bit for a half season in spite of having to adjust to new team and not being 100%
Think Frank is also on the verge of putting some things together. 'see the urgency, by some, to decide if he is worth the small investment in extending him. Specially as it will become a more valuable asset keeping his rights if he shows the slightest improvement.

Payton was also not such a bad idea. If Dennis gets hurt and Frank shows no progress or also gets hurt, then Payton is a good insurance plan.

Totally agree with the bold. Not sure why we are using two pre-season games and ignoring 2 years worth of play. When other struggling franchises draft pg's in the top 10, they turn the keys over to them and let them develop. Collin Sexton, Fox, Jamal Murray, Trae Young, were all allowed to struggle and grow into the pg position. Why can't we do that?! Signing Payton muddied the waters a bit. I didn't think it was necessary to sign him but I must admit, when I heard we signed Elf, my first thought was that Frank was a goner based on all the trade rumors from last year and the injuries.

Based on what I've seen the last couple of years, I would turn the keys over to DSJ and give him the year to develop and evaluate him at the end of the year and determine if he is will be apart of the future moving forward or not. I like Frank, just not as a starting pg. I like him coming off the bench to play some 1 & 2.

Agreed. Saw your other post with Fishmike, who btw will take favoring anyone over Smith as he is still trying to protect his many bets that Frank was a better pick than Smith. Even after 2 years of stats and play that show the contrary. I am sure he is recording and watching the last two games as damming evidence.

But lets pretend this is about Payton vs our young assets. Unless Trae or Fox are coming? I would prefer that either Frank or Dennis be given a true chance to improve over bringing in an average 5 year PG like Payton to do what we all know he will be. And that is be average. Also, I don't understand how so many on here go from lets stay committed to a rebuild to lets bring in okay vets to stifle the growth of the young players we felt were part of the future? Yes I get the concept that its good to have Vets around and that its not growth if your Yoots are getting their asses kicked every night, but if its causing a team to move on from young draft picks, prematurely, then how is that constructive? Specially when we are talking about NY fans, media and unrealistic expectations. I just dont think that fans that know anything about basketball would be complaining about a 20 year old PG having issues. I am hoping that Payton is a stop gap and once the FO sees that the few one year hires are not going to change much, they give the young guys a chance to learn and get some confidence. Right now we have two young PG's that have a lot of potential and many things to work on. Including confidence. Don't see how those things improve by playing Payton to a 30 win season.

newyorker4ever wrote:RJ Barrett

This sound crazy but if Frank will continue to luck offensive game, DSjr will continue to get injured, and Elf will continue to suck shooting the ball (and he will) RJ can be the best available option. Do not be be surprised Kadeem to have some major minutes...

HofstraBBall wrote:

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Gotta go with Payton for now.

DSjr is a scoring guard who doesn't do enough outside of scoring, and is better off as 6th man.

Frank looks the part and is lockdown defensively but offensively it's like playing 4 on 5 out there until he gets some confidence. We need some semblance of scoring ability at the point.

this 100%

good post.

Frank and DSjr both bring good things when playing well. Both are ready to contribute. Neither are ready to lead. Payton isnt a star but he's steady... ish. He's a poor man's Ray Felton. He's young enough to show some upside, especially at PG but this is most likely a stop gap move to force competition and nothing more. Payton isnt a "Perry guy" he's a guy that Perry knows. Especially in terms of chemistry you lean towards the familiar. I dont understand why this is so hard to see and everyone assumes its some kind of under the table loyalty.

Start Elf. DS for scoring off the bench. Frank's defense will get him on the floor, possibly even in crunch time. Frank and DS should be getting fighting in practice for Elf's minutes. This is logical and a straightforward approach.

KP and RJ are top picks and you hope are franchise players. Frank/DS/Knox are mid lottery and have talent but not sure things and come with growing pains. Let em grow. Doesnt have to be at everyone else's expense.

What up Fish. If the bold is true, lets trade him ASAP!! Would agree that if your looking for the steadiest PG and most experienced one then you go with Payton. Kid can dish. Although, as you said, if we get get logical. then Smith will be the starter. After all, logically, they traded their Franchise player for flexibility, picks and Smith a guy they thought had a future. If that is the case then the future should be given a chance to start.
Also, logically, it does not seem like Payton, after 5 average years, is the long term solution to a creating a playoff roster.

Whats funny to me is that Smith has had a good first two years. At the age of 19 and 20. And at the most difficult position in basketball to learn. Yet some on here are moving on due to one bad pre season game. Even after showing quite a bit for a half season in spite of having to adjust to new team and not being 100%
Think Frank is also on the verge of putting some things together. 'see the urgency, by some, to decide if he is worth the small investment in extending him. Specially as it will become a more valuable asset keeping his rights if he shows the slightest improvement.

Payton was also not such a bad idea. If Dennis gets hurt and Frank shows no progress or also gets hurt, then Payton is a good insurance plan.

Totally agree with the bold. Not sure why we are using two pre-season games and ignoring 2 years worth of play. When other struggling franchises draft pg's in the top 10, they turn the keys over to them and let them develop. Collin Sexton, Fox, Jamal Murray, Trae Young, were all allowed to struggle and grow into the pg position. Why can't we do that?! Signing Payton muddied the waters a bit. I didn't think it was necessary to sign him but I must admit, when I heard we signed Elf, my first thought was that Frank was a goner based on all the trade rumors from last year and the injuries.

Based on what I've seen the last couple of years, I would turn the keys over to DSJ and give him the year to develop and evaluate him at the end of the year and determine if he is will be apart of the future moving forward or not. I like Frank, just not as a starting pg. I like him coming off the bench to play some 1 & 2.

Agreed. Saw your other post with Fishmike, who btw will take favoring anyone over Smith as he is still trying to protect his many bets that Frank was a better pick than Smith. Even after 2 years of stats and play that show the contrary. I am sure he is recording and watching the last two games as damming evidence.

But lets pretend this is about Payton vs our young assets. Unless Trae or Fox are coming? I would prefer that either Frank or Dennis be given a true chance to improve over bringing in an average 5 year PG like Payton to do what we all know he will be. And that is be average. Also, I don't understand how so many on here go from lets stay committed to a rebuild to lets bring in okay vets to stifle the growth of the young players we felt were part of the future? Yes I get the concept that its good to have Vets around and that its not growth if your Yoots are getting their asses kicked every night, but if its causing a team to move on from young draft picks, prematurely, then how is that constructive? Specially when we are talking about NY fans, media and unrealistic expectations. I just dont think that fans that know anything about basketball would be complaining about a 20 year old PG having issues. I am hoping that Payton is a stop gap and once the FO sees that the few one year hires are not going to change much, they give the young guys a chance to learn and get some confidence. Right now we have two young PG's that have a lot of potential and many things to work on. Including confidence. Don't see how those things improve by playing Payton to a 30 win season.

My biggest concern is that Zo is going to be odd man out and his mins will be inconsistent. The front office did a great job of identifying him as an undrafted rookie, but these moves may force him to walk this summer looking for greener grass. I will be disappointed if we lose Zo!!!