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Why is it when people talk about the New Knicks
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knicks1248
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9/28/2004  5:59 PM
The first thing they say is we upgraded our roster and have the best back court, But always seem to leave out the fact that we are a absolutely horrible defensive team, with sub par ( thats being Generous) defenders, and a suspect coach who lacks teaching qualities.

I hate to sound negative, but I'm more interested in seeing how lenny is going to get these guy's to defend and play with some heart, as opppose to seeing us score a 110pts ppg, while our opponents score 115. When we were the best 3pt shooting team, and free throw shooting team in the league, that got us 37 wins.

I'm still pretty baffled about IT's whole plan, and what kind of team he wants. These are the players Chaney probably would have prefered in his lame system, becuase he wants to see high scoring games and a lot of running up and down.

ES
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MaTT4281
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9/28/2004  6:14 PM
I'll answer that very easily. The majority of us here try to stay optimistic about this team. It's no fun discussing what this team is, as you put it, "sub-par" at.

And besides, it's not like Zeke downgraded our D in any of his moves thus far.
BRIGGS
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9/28/2004  6:26 PM
oh I absolutley agree with you. This is not a good defensive team and we have no real big bodies in the middle--and no a 300 pound slow-footed mongolian isnt what I want patrolling the middle--- this team has flaws--if you look at the demographic of who we actually beat last year, it shows we walk on a thin line--i think we have improved in various areas while we did lose different types of things. We should have some chemistry and cohesion, we have alot of offensive skill players and we have high quality depth which should make up for some of the lack of D. We also are still in a very favorable division and conference. If we were in the west--we would have absolutely a minute shot at any playoff birth. In our division we could possibly win 41 games and get the 3rd seed[although that would be heavily tainyed] we get to play the lower end of teams 4 times intsead of twice and while some teams improved other teams may have gotten worse or just stayed the same i.e the bulls hawks bucks nets + an expansion team with barely any veterans. we should have a lot of games won before they are played. i like the number 43, it sounds reasonable-- hey maybe will win 48 or maybe we will win 34:)
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Bonn1997
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9/28/2004  6:54 PM
Posted by knicks1248:

The first thing they say is we upgraded our roster and have the best back court, But always seem to leave out the fact that we are a absolutely horrible defensive team, with sub par ( thats being Generous) defenders, and a suspect coach who lacks teaching qualities.

I hate to sound negative, but I'm more interested in seeing how lenny is going to get these guy's to defend and play with some heart, as opppose to seeing us score a 110pts ppg, while our opponents score 115. When we were the best 3pt shooting team, and free throw shooting team in the league, that got us 37 wins.

I'm still pretty baffled about IT's whole plan, and what kind of team he wants. These are the players Chaney probably would have prefered in his lame system, becuase he wants to see high scoring games and a lot of running up and down.
No one thinks this is an outstanding defensive team, but it's not worse than the one we had last year, which was above .500 with Marbury. And the offense is obviously upgraded since then since Jamal Crawford will be getting minutes that went to Shandon Anderson and Mike Sweetney looks improved. I think a lot of people expected Isiah to turn a terrible team headed for its third straight lottery year into a flawless team in just 9 months. Of course the team still has some flaws; of course, it's also light years ahead of the Eisley, Anderson, Van Horn, Thomas, Mutombo starting lineup we saw just 9 months ago.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 09/28/2004 18:56:22]
gunsnewing
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9/28/2004  7:46 PM
our defense was good last year i believe we were in the top 5-10 in field goal percentage against when Mutumbo was our center but when Nazr came over all hell broke loose on defense and we started giving up 100+ points virtually every night.

Let's hope their offense if so great so that it will make up for their lack of defense. and it's going to have to be really GREAT lol

then once Houston, penny and Shandon are gone maybe we can afford to actually sign a great big man/star for once :)
Mac
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9/28/2004  8:37 PM
According to some pretty reliable statistics found at 82games.com:
...From this regression we would state that the most important performance areas are:
Close Shot eFG% on Offense
Three-Point Shot eFG% on Defense
12 to 17 Foot eFG% on Offense
Close Shot eFG% on Defense
...Of course, the Pistons only ranked #21 in the league in close shot FG% during the regular season, which perhaps suggests that what it takes to win in the regular season and what is optimal for peak playoff performance could differ. Detroit was solid in defense from all zones, and basically top of the charts when it came to defending the three-point shot.

In our analysis of Using the Shot Clock Wisely we had concluded:
Look for the easy/quick basket but don't get reckless...play tough defense especially in the early parts of the shot clock...and you may be more successful than you are now!

For our wrapup here we will state:
Make a high percentage of your close shots...and limit your opponent's three point shooting percentage...and you may be on your way to a great season!
http://www.82games.com/comm51.htm
Of course what this means is that Defensive FG% isn't the most accurate teller of good defensive teams ... But successful defense in posessions ending in the first 10 seconds, defense of "close shots" and defense against 3 pointers.

I hope they play a lot of zone defense against the Spurs, Miami, Houston, Indiana, Chicago, etc...
Bonn1997
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9/28/2004  8:43 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:

our defense was good last year i believe we were in the top 5-10 in field goal percentage against when Mutumbo was our center but when Nazr came over all hell broke loose on defense and we started giving up 100+ points virtually every night.
We also had a higher winning percentage after than before that trade. I'd take Nazy on either end of the court over Doleac

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 09/28/2004 20:44:04]
gunsnewing
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9/28/2004  8:51 PM
then why did the anouncers make such a big deal when we were 1st or 2nd in the league in FG's against under Van Gundy for all those years
Silverfuel
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9/28/2004  9:06 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:

then why did the anouncers make such a big deal when we were 1st or 2nd in the league in FG's against under Van Gundy for all those years
Deke is a better defender than Nazr. Our defense is horrible but it is A LOT better than what it was last year. If you look at each position and how it has changed from the begining of last season to the begining of this season.

PG: Eisley - Stephon (improved)
SG: Houston - Crawford (improved)
SF: KVH - TT (slightly better)
PF: KT - KT/Sweeney(same)
C : Deke - Nazr (got worse)

Our defense at every position is better than what it was last year. Our team has improved defensively. It is not a GOOD defensive team but it has still improved and IT is not done dealing. I am sure there are better players to come in the frontline.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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9/28/2004  9:14 PM
This team is not yet complete, any sensible Knicks fan with a drop of optimism knows that. To sum this team up now, before we have yet to view them on the floor is tantamount to a knee-jerk reaction.

Zeke's making this team into a winner. However, one cannot realistically believe that it would have taken place by now. Watch how things come together this season, on both ends of the court.

Most of those who nitpick all the positive moves Messiah Thomas has made usually are either holdovers from the LayDown regime, or old KVH fans who remain bitter about their boy's raggedy azz getting shipped the hell up outta here.

Every move Isiah Thomas has made thus far has IMPROVED this team.
He will continue that pattern, IMO.
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
diderotn
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9/29/2004  9:09 AM
Let me add my 2 cents to this dialog really quick. First of all, Isiah has greatly improved our denfense when the brought in JYD, drafted Ariza AND Jamison Brewer in the off season. In this league, it is imperative to be a good off-the ball defender. If you can bring in someone to slow down the opposition PG (Brewer), you will have a chance at winning and most of all keep the other team from scorring. Isiah drafted Ariza (SG/SF) to guard the opposition best SG/SF, most of all, JYD is knowned for doing all the little things that will not show on the stat sheets. We can use a big man to guard the big Centers in the league, but that will take us sometime to either develop our own, or trade for one. I would say this much, we are a much improve squad defensively, and team cohesion will improve our chances defensively on the court also.
The true Knickabocker..........
Marv
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9/29/2004  9:26 AM
Posted by diderotn:

Let me add my 2 cents to this dialog really quick. First of all, Isiah has greatly improved our denfense when the brought in JYD, drafted Ariza AND Jamison Brewer in the off season. In this league, it is imperative to be a good off-the ball defender. If you can bring in someone to slow down the opposition PG (Brewer), you will have a chance at winning and most of all keep the other team from scorring. Isiah drafted Ariza (SG/SF) to guard the opposition best SG/SF, most of all, JYD is knowned for doing all the little things that will not show on the stat sheets. We can use a big man to guard the big Centers in the league, but that will take us sometime to either develop our own, or trade for one. I would say this much, we are a much improve squad defensively, and team cohesion will improve our chances defensively on the court also.

I think this is a real good post but i can't see any of these players getting much PT. Is Brewer going to get PG minutes over Crawford, Penny, even Moochie? The same with the Dog over Sweetney, KT, Baker? And Ariza over Penny or Shandon at the 3? I would love to see all 3 of these guys play, I'm just doubting they're going to get much.
knicks1248
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9/29/2004  9:30 AM
Diderotn, Improved defensively we did not,

Kvh ( i can't believe i'm saying this) is a better defender then TT ( who i love)

JYD is a good defender, but is more energy then smarts.
JC, gets handle by almost every solid 2g in the league, an as a unit with a offensive minded coach, it's not exactly the recipe for success.

Sure I'll give them a couple of months to get there sht in gear.
But I'm willing to bet a small fortune that lenny wil be in the HOT SEAT before XMAS.
ES
fishmike
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9/29/2004  9:36 AM
the problem is we really dont have one solid man to man defender. If we are going to play ok defense it will have to be in a team concept. we do have good speed and can get a lot of steals and force turnovers. We also have a very good rebounding team, but we arent going to hold teams to a low FG%.. its not in our makeup. Our defense is going to have to come from working the glass and disrupting plays and forcing TOs.

Only JYD is a bonafide defensive player and where are his minutes coming? Moving forward though Sweetney, Ariza and Crawford all have skills that could make them solid defensive players. Whether the are commited to playing D or not remains to be seen.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Nalod
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9/29/2004  9:38 AM
Its a slow expensive rebuild to maintain a high level of interest currently, with a better eye on the future. Isiah brings a higher level of credibility to sell this to Dolan.

It is my opinion that Laydog after a few really bad moves, was trying to rebuild but was torn between a demanding owner and doing it quickley. This he was bambi in the headlights.

I also beleive Stern interviened and read the riot act to dolan to go in one direction or another. The NBA is more valuable with a strong NY team.

We are rebuilding, but it will be over time. I also believe the sal cap tax must be going away because we are spending a silly amount on salary, and paying 40million tax is also not very smart long term.

I don't believe we are championship caliber nor is that the short term goal of this franchise. We are middle to upper tier with the goal of increased revenue to maintain brand strength. If those two aspects are correct, then Isiah and Mills are successful in what they are trying to accomplish. With the assets we have had, and have now, its just not possible inside of two years to become a true heavy condender. But we can have some fun until that time comes!
tkf
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9/29/2004  9:48 AM
Posted by Nalod:

Its a slow expensive rebuild to maintain a high level of interest currently, with a better eye on the future. Isiah brings a higher level of credibility to sell this to Dolan.

It is my opinion that Laydog after a few really bad moves, was trying to rebuild but was torn between a demanding owner and doing it quickley. This he was bambi in the headlights.

I also beleive Stern interviened and read the riot act to dolan to go in one direction or another. The NBA is more valuable with a strong NY team.

We are rebuilding, but it will be over time. I also believe the sal cap tax must be going away because we are spending a silly amount on salary, and paying 40million tax is also not very smart long term.

I don't believe we are championship caliber nor is that the short term goal of this franchise. We are middle to upper tier with the goal of increased revenue to maintain brand strength. If those two aspects are correct, then Isiah and Mills are successful in what they are trying to accomplish. With the assets we have had, and have now, its just not possible inside of two years to become a true heavy condender. But we can have some fun until that time comes!


excellent post nalod, and during such time creating a winning enviornment does a lot for the players and the fans. This team is rebuilding, although you may never hear IT directly say that, but New yorkers don't want to hear that now, but as long as IT can sell them the fact that we are getting better, and are better now while stockpiling talent for the future, It will be fun to watch..
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
crzymdups
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9/29/2004  10:05 AM
Posted by Silverfuel:
Posted by gunsnewing:

then why did the anouncers make such a big deal when we were 1st or 2nd in the league in FG's against under Van Gundy for all those years
Deke is a better defender than Nazr. Our defense is horrible but it is A LOT better than what it was last year. If you look at each position and how it has changed from the begining of last season to the begining of this season.

PG: Eisley - Stephon (improved)
SG: Houston - Crawford (improved)
SF: KVH - TT (slightly better)
PF: KT - KT/Sweeney(same)
C : Deke - Nazr (got worse)

Our defense at every position is better than what it was last year. Our team has improved defensively. It is not a GOOD defensive team but it has still improved and IT is not done dealing. I am sure there are better players to come in the frontline.

To compare Deke to Nazr isn't really fair. If Deke could play full minutes and still contribute, he'd be here. Compare Nazr's defense at center to Kurt's and you'll be happier, because that's the true upgrade. Deke was a gift for a year and the first of many gifts that Ratner's Nets have sprinkled throughout the league.

Nazr has the tools to be better. He doesn't have huge size, but he is relatively fast and just needs to work on his footwork - which Mark Aguirre has shown to be quite good at. I think Nazr can develop into a passable defender. Though I agree this team won't make any true noise until we get a defensive intimidator, Nazr will do for now.

Also, it should be said that Marbury and Tim Thomas COULD be fantastic defenders with the right team mentality and coach. I think that's the next major point Zeke needs to address and I was hoping something would change this summer. Maybe next year.
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diderotn
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9/29/2004  10:45 AM
Listen to me when I say this, this team is going to be much better than the Detroit squad minus Ben Wallace in the middle. I never thought that I would say this about a team coached by Lenny, but last year was a huge deception to him, and he is prepared to make the changes that he needs to make to improve his team defensively. One of the biggest thing he did was inciting Isiah to go out and bring guys that have played under his leadership when he coached the Raptors deep into the playoffs a few years ago. At the end of the season, he realizes that his inside D and the back court was pourous, he immediately expressed his displeasure with Kurt and Anderson all together. Believe it or not, Ariza, JYD, and Brewers will be getting some playing time. You can't have defensive guys on your bench and not play them. Trust me, Isiah is going to be a little more vocal about things, specially if our squad is not doing well.
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knicks1248
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9/29/2004  1:16 PM
How do you know Lenny had any say in anything involving the roster changes?

Secondly, It may have been a little early to jump the gun, but base on the rep of each player, we will struggle defensively.

The team defense philosophy comes from a coach with a defensive mind set ( Sloan, JVG, Phil, Larry B) But coach's like Lenny, rudy, chaney, need defensive minded players to actually have success, because they just don't know how to teach it even though they may have the knowledge.


It's like giving Magic, and Jordan head coaching jobs. Neither will be effective at doing it, because they don't know how to teach it, and they also have very little patience. They feel at this level you should know or have a strong desire to get better, and if not, your useless.

Can't you remember when magic had that brief coaching stint with the lakers, he was total baffled and overwhelem at the incompetnce, and really couldn't get the players ( especially the younger ones) to buy into it.

Jordan has even less tolerence, and his standards are always going to be extremey high, because he knows what it takes.

Larry Bird was so successful because he's a great teacher and has loads of patience( I think) and was such a bright player ( unlike the mostly talented & gifted Mj and MJ). I'm not saying that they weren't bright themselves, but Bird was far less athletic then Jordan and magic and had to rely on more smarts then anything.

I really feel like Chaney and Lenny ( 2 great players) fall into this catogory.
ES
newyorknewyork
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9/29/2004  2:52 PM
This team will be a very good scoring team and a very good rebounding team. Just have to find a way to turn that into Ws. If we use all the ball handlers we have to controll the tempo, take care of the ball, and create easy shots for each other than our offense could help out D. We may not be a shut down team but if we get the stops when they really count than that will be good enough to win. Getting second chances while not letting them get any is also a huge boost to the D which guys like Sweetney, Baker & Muhammad can provide. Marbury & KT pick and roll before KT's injury was call by Dunleavy the best in the NBA after Marbury & KT put up like 50+ pts combined against his Clipps. Houston & TT were never guys who demanded the ball either which people complained about in the past now that may better. As long as they continue to hit at high %. Crawford is an excellent defender when he plays the point because of his hieght and length and athletism. U could even put Crawford on PGs & Marbury on 2gs in a lot of situations.

Im not saying every thing is going to workout like this but this a way to make it work i guess
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