GustavBahler wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Nalod wrote:Math. Some will get injured. Dotson is coming off shoulder surgery and of course we all hope he is healthy. Payton first three seasons he was healthy. Played two full seasons and a 73 game season. Last three 63, 63,42 games. Smith has had back issues. Frank Played 78 games his first season. Last year he was not durable. The kid was still growing. At 21 Im not defining him. Dennis with bad back might be an issue of concern. Im not into Physiology but if not a stenosis or disc issues it could be related to his ACL injury in high school and never properly realigned his body in the aftermath. Lets hope. I hope RJ barrett blows the doors off the world and makes no issue of his playing. Same for Knox.

"Killer instinct" on defense but not on offense. I can agree with that. Good defensive things happen when he is on the court. In the knicks dream of dreams he pairs with smith well. I don't see a future with Kevin Knox, all 6-10 of him at Power Forward. I put RJ at the 3 and Frank at the 2 with Smith in the backcourt. I can type it, hope it but I don't see it. Theres a lot of things I don't see, but that does not mean things won't happen as I want them or envision. This talent base is fun see what will become. Trades will happen, injuries will occur and players will develop into what they will become. Is the Journey not sometimes better than the destination? Knicks might win a chip one day and fans can savor that moment but the thrills and chills that got you their are the true pleasure. There is a lot of things I don't see. That don't mean it won't happen. Nalod is arrogant, but not stupid.

Agree that injuries might present Frank with more PT. All about what he does with it.

Do you think he has not been giving a fair opportunity in the last 2 yrs.

He's very close to being considered injury prone

If you are asking if Frank should be given a legit opportunity to get minutes? Of course. Also saying that getting minutes due to injuries is one thing, proving that you should keep getting those minutes is another.

Training camp, preseason, and practice is where this decided 90%.
Another 10% is from real game.
Frank will get his chance to run the team or play the wing if he will show in practice that he can do it on NBA level better that other guards we have.
If he will come ready and improved he will get playing time. If he will show that he helping the team in this playing time he will get more time.
No one owe him anything. So it is all up to him.

Kemet wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Kemet wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Frank looks a litte faster, but the clips Ive been seeing look like Frank did his rookie year. Hope to see more than that this upcoming season. Has too much competition for minutes, too look more or less the same.

I don't see where his minutes will come from, unless there is and injury.

He is flat out not better than payton or DSJ at the point, can't shot better then RJ, Dotson, Trier or Ellington to be a SG, and just not strong enough to play SF.

It's not just his shooting that's the problem, infact, that really is the least of his problems. Fiz "suppose system" is base on everything Frank doesn't do well..heavy ISO, high pace, and 3 point shooting

I don't care if defends like Bowen, Artest or GP combine, if he can't push the pace or knock down open 3's consistently, he is french toast.

From every clip i seen of Frank in the NBA and overseas, that is just not the way he plays basketball, not the way he was taught to play basketball at a young age, and not the role he is comfortable in.

He is not a physical or finesse player, he is a fundamental system oriented player that will do the little things. That works on a top heavy roster with multiple stars and scorers.

Most NBA role players are 10x better than the talent overseas(see jimmer), frank is still a minor role player against much lesser talent

The NBA league has become as soft as the over-sea teams.
However, during the NBA midseason some of the playoff teams does add a little hard-knocks in their performance.

Frank and DSJ were not a Top-5 pick in the draft, both players are equally a work in progress having a raw potential to be star role-players in the future.
As a rookie PG Frank did well coming off the bench behind (veteran) starter PG-Jarrett Jack and SG-Courtney Lee. The two guards were not star players, but they were 9 and 11 yr NBA veterans.
Head-coach Hornacek's system and game substitution did have a lot of flaws, especially on the defensive-end, but Hornacek's coaching-system were a 100% percent better than the so-call system head-coach David Fizdale implemented in the following season.

In Frank and Dotson's 2nd season on the Knicks …
Mills/Perry switch head-coaches and provided the Knicks team a much lower level head-coach than they had in Hornacek in David Fizdale.
Plus Mills/Perry provided very low IQ guards to the Knicks 2018-19 roster in (Mudiay, Burke, Baker, and Timmy) whom skills as a 30 minute starter are only useful or valuable in the G-league.
Mills/Perry did not bother to add a decent NBA role-player at the PF position nor at the SF position on the 2018-19 roster to tandem in the front-court with a double-double center Kanter .. which resulted in the majority of Knick-players wanting to be traded before midseason.

The Knicks Program for young drafted players has always been questionable, after the back-court tandem of Sugar Ray Richardson and Ray Williams in the 1980's.
In the 2019 offseason the Knicks added 9 new players to the roster!
In the 2017 offseason the Knicks added 9 new players to the roster!
In the 2016 offseason the Knicks added 9 new players to the roster!

Majority of players wanted to be traded? Kanter had no future with team and wanted to play for his next contract. Knick could not trade him and did not even as for him to give up money. His Played great in Portland and went from earring 14mm per, to 5mm per on a two year deal with Boston.
CLee never asked for trade nor did Hardaway. KP sure as hell did. There were rumblings about Frank but he did come public and said he never asked for one. It’s possible his agent wanted him to get minutes. Who else wanted out?

Hornacek is a good coach and a bit old school grumpy. I have no issues with his hiring or firing. Given the roster and situation I’m not convinced he’d done much better than Fiz and perhaps would have lost his team. Fiz had them playing hard and there were few blow outs. I’m not going to defend 17 win and say he did a good job. Knicks have a process/plan that transcends one season. Fiz has a 5 year deal, was in year one, Perry in year two. The original plan was to clear cap space for one “star” to play with KP and build around them with youth. Plan B was open space for two stars. The way things played out one might commend the team for not panicking and moved on to plan “C”.

If you can’t find any form of interest in this squad and in developing yoot perhaps your in for a rough time. Some of us find the process interesting. Some are results oriented. That happens too.
Never in our history except for the late 60’s was the team this stacked with potential. Even then Bradley who sat for two years after being drafted (Imagine that today!) was “too slow” and was a “bust”, Phenom Cazzie Russell had knee issues and really never fulfilled his star promise and Phil Jax a valuable scoring forward had major back surgery which was often a career killer than. He reinvented himself. From all that failure became perhaps one of the greatest NBA teams ever.
My point is the future is wide open but hardly certain. My thought is some of these guys might be great and some won’t. Law of averages. We have more “Potential” because the sheer number of young guys. Yes,, some won’t pan out.

Right now RJ, Denis, Mitchell and Knox might be special. Denis is the old man at 21. Frank Just turned 21 last month. I’m not seeing “special” with him but the intrigue of him turning the corner is something I will watch. I’ll watch his French team if I can. Throw in Iggy, thats 6 players under 21.
Trier and Dotson have limited upside given their ages. That not a bad thing. This young team will fight it out for minutes and their careers. The new guys are not stars, but good role players and proven commodities.
I dont’ care about the past. It does not factor into the future. Its not a question of faith, its math. We need just two players to grow up and be special. Can’t say who they are. I’m good with that.

ESPN just hired Mark Jackson to a multi-year contract for the upcoming season ..
The Clippers just hired Lue as Doc's head-assistant coach.
The Knicks having a majority of young-core players again for the 2nd season .. should have invested in one or two of the many unemployed head-coaches in the offseason to be Fizdale's top assistant-coach throughout the 2019-20 season.

Phil selected Frank's pass-first performance in the draft .. knowing shoot-first Melo & Rose & KP would be on the upcoming season roster.
Fizdale's 2nd season job in training-camp and pre-season are to set Frank up in a hustling out-scoring 2nd-unit lineup to start the first 6 minutes of the 2nd quarter. Any of the two above mention head coaches could put together a winning lineup (from our young & vet roster) to start the 2nd quarter having Frank at the point.
I'm just hoping Fizdale let 5 yr PG-Payton & 10 yr SG-Ellington be the starter back-court throughout the season. What I don't want to see in the upcoming season having a lot of 2 yr contract players are a different experiment every other game in player substitution in the rotation.

It's so rare to see a young NBA player having a very limited role on an international team.

If he is only getting 15 to 18 minutes playing on a roster with far less talent. How many minutes should he be getting on NBA roster with 10x better talent.

This is why i was completely lost as to why frank never got sent to the G league.

Part of me feels like the FO was concern about him going down there and still looking suspect against lesser talent, pretty much killing any value he had altogether.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/SKPearlman/status/1164497734516318208

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Kemet wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Kemet wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Frank looks a litte faster, but the clips Ive been seeing look like Frank did his rookie year. Hope to see more than that this upcoming season. Has too much competition for minutes, too look more or less the same.

I don't see where his minutes will come from, unless there is and injury.

He is flat out not better than payton or DSJ at the point, can't shot better then RJ, Dotson, Trier or Ellington to be a SG, and just not strong enough to play SF.

It's not just his shooting that's the problem, infact, that really is the least of his problems. Fiz "suppose system" is base on everything Frank doesn't do well..heavy ISO, high pace, and 3 point shooting

I don't care if defends like Bowen, Artest or GP combine, if he can't push the pace or knock down open 3's consistently, he is french toast.

From every clip i seen of Frank in the NBA and overseas, that is just not the way he plays basketball, not the way he was taught to play basketball at a young age, and not the role he is comfortable in.

He is not a physical or finesse player, he is a fundamental system oriented player that will do the little things. That works on a top heavy roster with multiple stars and scorers.

Most NBA role players are 10x better than the talent overseas(see jimmer), frank is still a minor role player against much lesser talent

The NBA league has become as soft as the over-sea teams.
However, during the NBA midseason some of the playoff teams does add a little hard-knocks in their performance.

Frank and DSJ were not a Top-5 pick in the draft, both players are equally a work in progress having a raw potential to be star role-players in the future.
As a rookie PG Frank did well coming off the bench behind (veteran) starter PG-Jarrett Jack and SG-Courtney Lee. The two guards were not star players, but they were 9 and 11 yr NBA veterans.
Head-coach Hornacek's system and game substitution did have a lot of flaws, especially on the defensive-end, but Hornacek's coaching-system were a 100% percent better than the so-call system head-coach David Fizdale implemented in the following season.

In Frank and Dotson's 2nd season on the Knicks …
Mills/Perry switch head-coaches and provided the Knicks team a much lower level head-coach than they had in Hornacek in David Fizdale.
Plus Mills/Perry provided very low IQ guards to the Knicks 2018-19 roster in (Mudiay, Burke, Baker, and Timmy) whom skills as a 30 minute starter are only useful or valuable in the G-league.
Mills/Perry did not bother to add a decent NBA role-player at the PF position nor at the SF position on the 2018-19 roster to tandem in the front-court with a double-double center Kanter .. which resulted in the majority of Knick-players wanting to be traded before midseason.

The Knicks Program for young drafted players has always been questionable, after the back-court tandem of Sugar Ray Richardson and Ray Williams in the 1980's.
In the 2019 offseason the Knicks added 9 new players to the roster!
In the 2017 offseason the Knicks added 9 new players to the roster!
In the 2016 offseason the Knicks added 9 new players to the roster!

Majority of players wanted to be traded? Kanter had no future with team and wanted to play for his next contract. Knick could not trade him and did not even as for him to give up money. His Played great in Portland and went from earring 14mm per, to 5mm per on a two year deal with Boston.
CLee never asked for trade nor did Hardaway. KP sure as hell did. There were rumblings about Frank but he did come public and said he never asked for one. It’s possible his agent wanted him to get minutes. Who else wanted out?

Hornacek is a good coach and a bit old school grumpy. I have no issues with his hiring or firing. Given the roster and situation I’m not convinced he’d done much better than Fiz and perhaps would have lost his team. Fiz had them playing hard and there were few blow outs. I’m not going to defend 17 win and say he did a good job. Knicks have a process/plan that transcends one season. Fiz has a 5 year deal, was in year one, Perry in year two. The original plan was to clear cap space for one “star” to play with KP and build around them with youth. Plan B was open space for two stars. The way things played out one might commend the team for not panicking and moved on to plan “C”.

If you can’t find any form of interest in this squad and in developing yoot perhaps your in for a rough time. Some of us find the process interesting. Some are results oriented. That happens too.
Never in our history except for the late 60’s was the team this stacked with potential. Even then Bradley who sat for two years after being drafted (Imagine that today!) was “too slow” and was a “bust”, Phenom Cazzie Russell had knee issues and really never fulfilled his star promise and Phil Jax a valuable scoring forward had major back surgery which was often a career killer than. He reinvented himself. From all that failure became perhaps one of the greatest NBA teams ever.
My point is the future is wide open but hardly certain. My thought is some of these guys might be great and some won’t. Law of averages. We have more “Potential” because the sheer number of young guys. Yes,, some won’t pan out.

Right now RJ, Denis, Mitchell and Knox might be special. Denis is the old man at 21. Frank Just turned 21 last month. I’m not seeing “special” with him but the intrigue of him turning the corner is something I will watch. I’ll watch his French team if I can. Throw in Iggy, thats 6 players under 21.
Trier and Dotson have limited upside given their ages. That not a bad thing. This young team will fight it out for minutes and their careers. The new guys are not stars, but good role players and proven commodities.
I dont’ care about the past. It does not factor into the future. Its not a question of faith, its math. We need just two players to grow up and be special. Can’t say who they are. I’m good with that.

ESPN just hired Mark Jackson to a multi-year contract for the upcoming season ..
The Clippers just hired Lue as Doc's head-assistant coach.
The Knicks having a majority of young-core players again for the 2nd season .. should have invested in one or two of the many unemployed head-coaches in the offseason to be Fizdale's top assistant-coach throughout the 2019-20 season.

Phil selected Frank's pass-first performance in the draft .. knowing shoot-first Melo & Rose & KP would be on the upcoming season roster.
Fizdale's 2nd season job in training-camp and pre-season are to set Frank up in a hustling out-scoring 2nd-unit lineup to start the first 6 minutes of the 2nd quarter. Any of the two above mention head coaches could put together a winning lineup (from our young & vet roster) to start the 2nd quarter having Frank at the point.
I'm just hoping Fizdale let 5 yr PG-Payton & 10 yr SG-Ellington be the starter back-court throughout the season. What I don't want to see in the upcoming season having a lot of 2 yr contract players are a different experiment every other game in player substitution in the rotation.

It's so rare to see a young NBA player having a very limited role on an international team.

If he is only getting 15 to 18 minutes playing on a roster with far less talent. How many minutes should he be getting on NBA roster with 10x better talent.

This is why i was completely lost as to why frank never got sent to the G league.

Part of me feels like the FO was concern about him going down there and still looking suspect against lesser talent, pretty much killing any value he had altogether.

His last game he was said to be damn near perfect. Team went up by 22 pts from when they put him in the game to when they took him out. Was 3-3 for 8 pts, caused havoc defensively, ran a smooth efficient offense at point. Yet he only got 13mins still. There was a good amount of garbage time and Frank didn’t get those garbage mins. Which would be the case if he was considered a back end of the rotation guy. Especially when playing well. So him getting low mins comes off as more strategic than due to lack of performance or role. These are not not preliminary games so maybe that’s it?

He got 21mins a game as a rookie. Why would they be concerned about him playing poorly in the G league if they were willing to play him 21mins a game as a pro? He also started the season his sophomore at SF and then PG. Why would they start him in an NBA lineup if they were concerned he would underperform in the G league?

I'm only suggesting that could have been a reason, i'm not confirming that. But the way he a has struggled to play at the NBA level should be reason enough to give him some minor league action to see how he performs.

My conclusion of frank thus far is that he is not a guy that looks to score or push the pace, So if that's the kind of guard that you are looking for then look elsewhere, but if you want a slow down methodical, half court player, who doesn't take any risk, than franks your guy.

We both have a very good Idea how FIZ wants to play, and it aint the frank way..

knicks1248 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Kemet wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Kemet wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Frank looks a litte faster, but the clips Ive been seeing look like Frank did his rookie year. Hope to see more than that this upcoming season. Has too much competition for minutes, too look more or less the same.

I don't see where his minutes will come from, unless there is and injury.

He is flat out not better than payton or DSJ at the point, can't shot better then RJ, Dotson, Trier or Ellington to be a SG, and just not strong enough to play SF.

It's not just his shooting that's the problem, infact, that really is the least of his problems. Fiz "suppose system" is base on everything Frank doesn't do well..heavy ISO, high pace, and 3 point shooting

I don't care if defends like Bowen, Artest or GP combine, if he can't push the pace or knock down open 3's consistently, he is french toast.

From every clip i seen of Frank in the NBA and overseas, that is just not the way he plays basketball, not the way he was taught to play basketball at a young age, and not the role he is comfortable in.

He is not a physical or finesse player, he is a fundamental system oriented player that will do the little things. That works on a top heavy roster with multiple stars and scorers.

Most NBA role players are 10x better than the talent overseas(see jimmer), frank is still a minor role player against much lesser talent

The NBA league has become as soft as the over-sea teams.
However, during the NBA midseason some of the playoff teams does add a little hard-knocks in their performance.

Frank and DSJ were not a Top-5 pick in the draft, both players are equally a work in progress having a raw potential to be star role-players in the future.
As a rookie PG Frank did well coming off the bench behind (veteran) starter PG-Jarrett Jack and SG-Courtney Lee. The two guards were not star players, but they were 9 and 11 yr NBA veterans.
Head-coach Hornacek's system and game substitution did have a lot of flaws, especially on the defensive-end, but Hornacek's coaching-system were a 100% percent better than the so-call system head-coach David Fizdale implemented in the following season.

In Frank and Dotson's 2nd season on the Knicks …
Mills/Perry switch head-coaches and provided the Knicks team a much lower level head-coach than they had in Hornacek in David Fizdale.
Plus Mills/Perry provided very low IQ guards to the Knicks 2018-19 roster in (Mudiay, Burke, Baker, and Timmy) whom skills as a 30 minute starter are only useful or valuable in the G-league.
Mills/Perry did not bother to add a decent NBA role-player at the PF position nor at the SF position on the 2018-19 roster to tandem in the front-court with a double-double center Kanter .. which resulted in the majority of Knick-players wanting to be traded before midseason.

The Knicks Program for young drafted players has always been questionable, after the back-court tandem of Sugar Ray Richardson and Ray Williams in the 1980's.
In the 2019 offseason the Knicks added 9 new players to the roster!
In the 2017 offseason the Knicks added 9 new players to the roster!
In the 2016 offseason the Knicks added 9 new players to the roster!

Majority of players wanted to be traded? Kanter had no future with team and wanted to play for his next contract. Knick could not trade him and did not even as for him to give up money. His Played great in Portland and went from earring 14mm per, to 5mm per on a two year deal with Boston.
CLee never asked for trade nor did Hardaway. KP sure as hell did. There were rumblings about Frank but he did come public and said he never asked for one. It’s possible his agent wanted him to get minutes. Who else wanted out?

Hornacek is a good coach and a bit old school grumpy. I have no issues with his hiring or firing. Given the roster and situation I’m not convinced he’d done much better than Fiz and perhaps would have lost his team. Fiz had them playing hard and there were few blow outs. I’m not going to defend 17 win and say he did a good job. Knicks have a process/plan that transcends one season. Fiz has a 5 year deal, was in year one, Perry in year two. The original plan was to clear cap space for one “star” to play with KP and build around them with youth. Plan B was open space for two stars. The way things played out one might commend the team for not panicking and moved on to plan “C”.

If you can’t find any form of interest in this squad and in developing yoot perhaps your in for a rough time. Some of us find the process interesting. Some are results oriented. That happens too.
Never in our history except for the late 60’s was the team this stacked with potential. Even then Bradley who sat for two years after being drafted (Imagine that today!) was “too slow” and was a “bust”, Phenom Cazzie Russell had knee issues and really never fulfilled his star promise and Phil Jax a valuable scoring forward had major back surgery which was often a career killer than. He reinvented himself. From all that failure became perhaps one of the greatest NBA teams ever.
My point is the future is wide open but hardly certain. My thought is some of these guys might be great and some won’t. Law of averages. We have more “Potential” because the sheer number of young guys. Yes,, some won’t pan out.

Right now RJ, Denis, Mitchell and Knox might be special. Denis is the old man at 21. Frank Just turned 21 last month. I’m not seeing “special” with him but the intrigue of him turning the corner is something I will watch. I’ll watch his French team if I can. Throw in Iggy, thats 6 players under 21.
Trier and Dotson have limited upside given their ages. That not a bad thing. This young team will fight it out for minutes and their careers. The new guys are not stars, but good role players and proven commodities.
I dont’ care about the past. It does not factor into the future. Its not a question of faith, its math. We need just two players to grow up and be special. Can’t say who they are. I’m good with that.

ESPN just hired Mark Jackson to a multi-year contract for the upcoming season ..
The Clippers just hired Lue as Doc's head-assistant coach.
The Knicks having a majority of young-core players again for the 2nd season .. should have invested in one or two of the many unemployed head-coaches in the offseason to be Fizdale's top assistant-coach throughout the 2019-20 season.

Phil selected Frank's pass-first performance in the draft .. knowing shoot-first Melo & Rose & KP would be on the upcoming season roster.
Fizdale's 2nd season job in training-camp and pre-season are to set Frank up in a hustling out-scoring 2nd-unit lineup to start the first 6 minutes of the 2nd quarter. Any of the two above mention head coaches could put together a winning lineup (from our young & vet roster) to start the 2nd quarter having Frank at the point.
I'm just hoping Fizdale let 5 yr PG-Payton & 10 yr SG-Ellington be the starter back-court throughout the season. What I don't want to see in the upcoming season having a lot of 2 yr contract players are a different experiment every other game in player substitution in the rotation.

It's so rare to see a young NBA player having a very limited role on an international team.

If he is only getting 15 to 18 minutes playing on a roster with far less talent. How many minutes should he be getting on NBA roster with 10x better talent.

This is why i was completely lost as to why frank never got sent to the G league.

Part of me feels like the FO was concern about him going down there and still looking suspect against lesser talent, pretty much killing any value he had altogether.

His last game he was said to be damn near perfect. Team went up by 22 pts from when they put him in the game to when they took him out. Was 3-3 for 8 pts, caused havoc defensively, ran a smooth efficient offense at point. Yet he only got 13mins still. There was a good amount of garbage time and Frank didn’t get those garbage mins. Which would be the case if he was considered a back end of the rotation guy. Especially when playing well. So him getting low mins comes off as more strategic than due to lack of performance or role. These are not not preliminary games so maybe that’s it?

He got 21mins a game as a rookie. Why would they be concerned about him playing poorly in the G league if they were willing to play him 21mins a game as a pro? He also started the season his sophomore at SF and then PG. Why would they start him in an NBA lineup if they were concerned he would underperform in the G league?

I'm only suggesting that could have been a reason, i'm not confirming that. But the way he a has struggled to play at the NBA level should be reason enough to give him some minor league action to see how he performs.

My conclusion of frank thus far is that he is not a guy that looks to score or push the pace, So if that's the kind of guard that you are looking for then look elsewhere, but if you want a slow down methodical, half court player, who doesn't take any risk, than franks your guy.

We both have a very good Idea how FIZ wants to play, and it aint the frank way..

I'm not sure any Knick fan or Knick player has an idea or clue on how Fizdale want the team to play in the upcoming season, especially after a drastic 17 win season performance where Knick players looked lost in every lineup Fizdale put on the court.

Kemet wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Kemet wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Kemet wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Frank looks a litte faster, but the clips Ive been seeing look like Frank did his rookie year. Hope to see more than that this upcoming season. Has too much competition for minutes, too look more or less the same.

I don't see where his minutes will come from, unless there is and injury.

He is flat out not better than payton or DSJ at the point, can't shot better then RJ, Dotson, Trier or Ellington to be a SG, and just not strong enough to play SF.

It's not just his shooting that's the problem, infact, that really is the least of his problems. Fiz "suppose system" is base on everything Frank doesn't do well..heavy ISO, high pace, and 3 point shooting

I don't care if defends like Bowen, Artest or GP combine, if he can't push the pace or knock down open 3's consistently, he is french toast.

From every clip i seen of Frank in the NBA and overseas, that is just not the way he plays basketball, not the way he was taught to play basketball at a young age, and not the role he is comfortable in.

He is not a physical or finesse player, he is a fundamental system oriented player that will do the little things. That works on a top heavy roster with multiple stars and scorers.

Most NBA role players are 10x better than the talent overseas(see jimmer), frank is still a minor role player against much lesser talent

The NBA league has become as soft as the over-sea teams.
However, during the NBA midseason some of the playoff teams does add a little hard-knocks in their performance.

Frank and DSJ were not a Top-5 pick in the draft, both players are equally a work in progress having a raw potential to be star role-players in the future.
As a rookie PG Frank did well coming off the bench behind (veteran) starter PG-Jarrett Jack and SG-Courtney Lee. The two guards were not star players, but they were 9 and 11 yr NBA veterans.
Head-coach Hornacek's system and game substitution did have a lot of flaws, especially on the defensive-end, but Hornacek's coaching-system were a 100% percent better than the so-call system head-coach David Fizdale implemented in the following season.

In Frank and Dotson's 2nd season on the Knicks …
Mills/Perry switch head-coaches and provided the Knicks team a much lower level head-coach than they had in Hornacek in David Fizdale.
Plus Mills/Perry provided very low IQ guards to the Knicks 2018-19 roster in (Mudiay, Burke, Baker, and Timmy) whom skills as a 30 minute starter are only useful or valuable in the G-league.
Mills/Perry did not bother to add a decent NBA role-player at the PF position nor at the SF position on the 2018-19 roster to tandem in the front-court with a double-double center Kanter .. which resulted in the majority of Knick-players wanting to be traded before midseason.

The Knicks Program for young drafted players has always been questionable, after the back-court tandem of Sugar Ray Richardson and Ray Williams in the 1980's.
In the 2019 offseason the Knicks added 9 new players to the roster!
In the 2017 offseason the Knicks added 9 new players to the roster!
In the 2016 offseason the Knicks added 9 new players to the roster!

Majority of players wanted to be traded? Kanter had no future with team and wanted to play for his next contract. Knick could not trade him and did not even as for him to give up money. His Played great in Portland and went from earring 14mm per, to 5mm per on a two year deal with Boston.
CLee never asked for trade nor did Hardaway. KP sure as hell did. There were rumblings about Frank but he did come public and said he never asked for one. It’s possible his agent wanted him to get minutes. Who else wanted out?

Hornacek is a good coach and a bit old school grumpy. I have no issues with his hiring or firing. Given the roster and situation I’m not convinced he’d done much better than Fiz and perhaps would have lost his team. Fiz had them playing hard and there were few blow outs. I’m not going to defend 17 win and say he did a good job. Knicks have a process/plan that transcends one season. Fiz has a 5 year deal, was in year one, Perry in year two. The original plan was to clear cap space for one “star” to play with KP and build around them with youth. Plan B was open space for two stars. The way things played out one might commend the team for not panicking and moved on to plan “C”.

If you can’t find any form of interest in this squad and in developing yoot perhaps your in for a rough time. Some of us find the process interesting. Some are results oriented. That happens too.
Never in our history except for the late 60’s was the team this stacked with potential. Even then Bradley who sat for two years after being drafted (Imagine that today!) was “too slow” and was a “bust”, Phenom Cazzie Russell had knee issues and really never fulfilled his star promise and Phil Jax a valuable scoring forward had major back surgery which was often a career killer than. He reinvented himself. From all that failure became perhaps one of the greatest NBA teams ever.
My point is the future is wide open but hardly certain. My thought is some of these guys might be great and some won’t. Law of averages. We have more “Potential” because the sheer number of young guys. Yes,, some won’t pan out.

Right now RJ, Denis, Mitchell and Knox might be special. Denis is the old man at 21. Frank Just turned 21 last month. I’m not seeing “special” with him but the intrigue of him turning the corner is something I will watch. I’ll watch his French team if I can. Throw in Iggy, thats 6 players under 21.
Trier and Dotson have limited upside given their ages. That not a bad thing. This young team will fight it out for minutes and their careers. The new guys are not stars, but good role players and proven commodities.
I dont’ care about the past. It does not factor into the future. Its not a question of faith, its math. We need just two players to grow up and be special. Can’t say who they are. I’m good with that.

ESPN just hired Mark Jackson to a multi-year contract for the upcoming season ..
The Clippers just hired Lue as Doc's head-assistant coach.
The Knicks having a majority of young-core players again for the 2nd season .. should have invested in one or two of the many unemployed head-coaches in the offseason to be Fizdale's top assistant-coach throughout the 2019-20 season.

Phil selected Frank's pass-first performance in the draft .. knowing shoot-first Melo & Rose & KP would be on the upcoming season roster.
Fizdale's 2nd season job in training-camp and pre-season are to set Frank up in a hustling out-scoring 2nd-unit lineup to start the first 6 minutes of the 2nd quarter. Any of the two above mention head coaches could put together a winning lineup (from our young & vet roster) to start the 2nd quarter having Frank at the point.
I'm just hoping Fizdale let 5 yr PG-Payton & 10 yr SG-Ellington be the starter back-court throughout the season. What I don't want to see in the upcoming season having a lot of 2 yr contract players are a different experiment every other game in player substitution in the rotation.

It's so rare to see a young NBA player having a very limited role on an international team.

If he is only getting 15 to 18 minutes playing on a roster with far less talent. How many minutes should he be getting on NBA roster with 10x better talent.

This is why i was completely lost as to why frank never got sent to the G league.

Part of me feels like the FO was concern about him going down there and still looking suspect against lesser talent, pretty much killing any value he had altogether.

His last game he was said to be damn near perfect. Team went up by 22 pts from when they put him in the game to when they took him out. Was 3-3 for 8 pts, caused havoc defensively, ran a smooth efficient offense at point. Yet he only got 13mins still. There was a good amount of garbage time and Frank didn’t get those garbage mins. Which would be the case if he was considered a back end of the rotation guy. Especially when playing well. So him getting low mins comes off as more strategic than due to lack of performance or role. These are not not preliminary games so maybe that’s it?

He got 21mins a game as a rookie. Why would they be concerned about him playing poorly in the G league if they were willing to play him 21mins a game as a pro? He also started the season his sophomore at SF and then PG. Why would they start him in an NBA lineup if they were concerned he would underperform in the G league?

I'm only suggesting that could have been a reason, i'm not confirming that. But the way he a has struggled to play at the NBA level should be reason enough to give him some minor league action to see how he performs.

My conclusion of frank thus far is that he is not a guy that looks to score or push the pace, So if that's the kind of guard that you are looking for then look elsewhere, but if you want a slow down methodical, half court player, who doesn't take any risk, than franks your guy.

We both have a very good Idea how FIZ wants to play, and it aint the frank way..

I'm not sure any Knick fan or Knick player has an idea or clue on how Fizdale want the team to play in the upcoming season, especially after a drastic 17 win season performance where Knick players looked lost in every lineup Fizdale put on the court.

Sorry but Fiz stated exactly how he wanted the team to play when he had his first press conference. The problem was nobody knew their role, and no one got consistent minutes other then mudiay...The GM has the power to tell any coach who he should play.

You think Kanter not playing was Fiz call...not by a long shot

technomaster wrote:It'd be great if Frank could get some minutes with the team - it'll mean we got some value out of his draft pick.

The way I see it is that there are basically 3 ways he could contribute on offense:
1) be an average or better 3pt shooter.
2) get better at initiating the offense (ie being a PG!)
3) be more aggressive/get better at driving to the basket/creating his own shot.

Any 1 of these would make him a valuable contributor on offense. Any 2 of these makes him potential starter material. All 3 makes him a real weapon to contend with.

I was thinking back to his pre-draft contributions on the junior teams. He basically got on future-star radar with his performance with his U18 team in 2016. http://www.fiba.basketball/europe/u18/2016/player/Frank-Ntilikina
He played like a stud in the 2016 U18 European Championships - in the final game, he went off for 31 points on 11/16 from the field, including 7/10 from 3pt range, with 3ast and 4rbd.
In the semi-final of that tournament, he was similarly excellent with 23pts on 8/11 from the field including 4/4 from 3pt range, 9ast, 4rbd, and 5 steals.

Future stud.

It's kind of similar to how RJ Barrett got on the map with his performances for team Canada in junior tournaments.

Let's see if he can regain some of his mojo playing internationally again in late August/early September in the FIBA world cup with the France senior team. I believe their 1st game is on 9/1 vs Germany.

I would add just getting to the line, let alone finishing. Frank has gone weeks (with consistent minutes) without getting to the line. If Frank is having a bad shooting night, he can still draw fouls, get to the line, put the other team in foul trouble.

Believe if Frank showed that he can do that consistently, combined with what looks to be a renuventated D, the minutes will be there. If not with the Knicks, than somewhere.

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Kemet wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Kemet wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Frank looks a litte faster, but the clips Ive been seeing look like Frank did his rookie year. Hope to see more than that this upcoming season. Has too much competition for minutes, too look more or less the same.

I don't see where his minutes will come from, unless there is and injury.

He is flat out not better than payton or DSJ at the point, can't shot better then RJ, Dotson, Trier or Ellington to be a SG, and just not strong enough to play SF.

It's not just his shooting that's the problem, infact, that really is the least of his problems. Fiz "suppose system" is base on everything Frank doesn't do well..heavy ISO, high pace, and 3 point shooting

I don't care if defends like Bowen, Artest or GP combine, if he can't push the pace or knock down open 3's consistently, he is french toast.

From every clip i seen of Frank in the NBA and overseas, that is just not the way he plays basketball, not the way he was taught to play basketball at a young age, and not the role he is comfortable in.

He is not a physical or finesse player, he is a fundamental system oriented player that will do the little things. That works on a top heavy roster with multiple stars and scorers.

Most NBA role players are 10x better than the talent overseas(see jimmer), frank is still a minor role player against much lesser talent

The NBA league has become as soft as the over-sea teams.
However, during the NBA midseason some of the playoff teams does add a little hard-knocks in their performance.

Frank and DSJ were not a Top-5 pick in the draft, both players are equally a work in progress having a raw potential to be star role-players in the future.
As a rookie PG Frank did well coming off the bench behind (veteran) starter PG-Jarrett Jack and SG-Courtney Lee. The two guards were not star players, but they were 9 and 11 yr NBA veterans.
Head-coach Hornacek's system and game substitution did have a lot of flaws, especially on the defensive-end, but Hornacek's coaching-system were a 100% percent better than the so-call system head-coach David Fizdale implemented in the following season.

In Frank and Dotson's 2nd season on the Knicks …
Mills/Perry switch head-coaches and provided the Knicks team a much lower level head-coach than they had in Hornacek in David Fizdale.
Plus Mills/Perry provided very low IQ guards to the Knicks 2018-19 roster in (Mudiay, Burke, Baker, and Timmy) whom skills as a 30 minute starter are only useful or valuable in the G-league.
Mills/Perry did not bother to add a decent NBA role-player at the PF position nor at the SF position on the 2018-19 roster to tandem in the front-court with a double-double center Kanter .. which resulted in the majority of Knick-players wanting to be traded before midseason.

The Knicks Program for young drafted players has always been questionable, after the back-court tandem of Sugar Ray Richardson and Ray Williams in the 1980's.
In the 2019 offseason the Knicks added 9 new players to the roster!
In the 2017 offseason the Knicks added 9 new players to the roster!
In the 2016 offseason the Knicks added 9 new players to the roster!

Majority of players wanted to be traded? Kanter had no future with team and wanted to play for his next contract. Knick could not trade him and did not even as for him to give up money. His Played great in Portland and went from earring 14mm per, to 5mm per on a two year deal with Boston.
CLee never asked for trade nor did Hardaway. KP sure as hell did. There were rumblings about Frank but he did come public and said he never asked for one. It’s possible his agent wanted him to get minutes. Who else wanted out?

Hornacek is a good coach and a bit old school grumpy. I have no issues with his hiring or firing. Given the roster and situation I’m not convinced he’d done much better than Fiz and perhaps would have lost his team. Fiz had them playing hard and there were few blow outs. I’m not going to defend 17 win and say he did a good job. Knicks have a process/plan that transcends one season. Fiz has a 5 year deal, was in year one, Perry in year two. The original plan was to clear cap space for one “star” to play with KP and build around them with youth. Plan B was open space for two stars. The way things played out one might commend the team for not panicking and moved on to plan “C”.

If you can’t find any form of interest in this squad and in developing yoot perhaps your in for a rough time. Some of us find the process interesting. Some are results oriented. That happens too.
Never in our history except for the late 60’s was the team this stacked with potential. Even then Bradley who sat for two years after being drafted (Imagine that today!) was “too slow” and was a “bust”, Phenom Cazzie Russell had knee issues and really never fulfilled his star promise and Phil Jax a valuable scoring forward had major back surgery which was often a career killer than. He reinvented himself. From all that failure became perhaps one of the greatest NBA teams ever.
My point is the future is wide open but hardly certain. My thought is some of these guys might be great and some won’t. Law of averages. We have more “Potential” because the sheer number of young guys. Yes,, some won’t pan out.

Right now RJ, Denis, Mitchell and Knox might be special. Denis is the old man at 21. Frank Just turned 21 last month. I’m not seeing “special” with him but the intrigue of him turning the corner is something I will watch. I’ll watch his French team if I can. Throw in Iggy, thats 6 players under 21.
Trier and Dotson have limited upside given their ages. That not a bad thing. This young team will fight it out for minutes and their careers. The new guys are not stars, but good role players and proven commodities.
I dont’ care about the past. It does not factor into the future. Its not a question of faith, its math. We need just two players to grow up and be special. Can’t say who they are. I’m good with that.

ESPN just hired Mark Jackson to a multi-year contract for the upcoming season ..
The Clippers just hired Lue as Doc's head-assistant coach.
The Knicks having a majority of young-core players again for the 2nd season .. should have invested in one or two of the many unemployed head-coaches in the offseason to be Fizdale's top assistant-coach throughout the 2019-20 season.

Phil selected Frank's pass-first performance in the draft .. knowing shoot-first Melo & Rose & KP would be on the upcoming season roster.
Fizdale's 2nd season job in training-camp and pre-season are to set Frank up in a hustling out-scoring 2nd-unit lineup to start the first 6 minutes of the 2nd quarter. Any of the two above mention head coaches could put together a winning lineup (from our young & vet roster) to start the 2nd quarter having Frank at the point.
I'm just hoping Fizdale let 5 yr PG-Payton & 10 yr SG-Ellington be the starter back-court throughout the season. What I don't want to see in the upcoming season having a lot of 2 yr contract players are a different experiment every other game in player substitution in the rotation.

It's so rare to see a young NBA player having a very limited role on an international team.

If he is only getting 15 to 18 minutes playing on a roster with far less talent. How many minutes should he be getting on NBA roster with 10x better talent.

This is why i was completely lost as to why frank never got sent to the G league.

Part of me feels like the FO was concern about him going down there and still looking suspect against lesser talent, pretty much killing any value he had altogether.

His last game he was said to be damn near perfect. Team went up by 22 pts from when they put him in the game to when they took him out. Was 3-3 for 8 pts, caused havoc defensively, ran a smooth efficient offense at point. Yet he only got 13mins still. There was a good amount of garbage time and Frank didn’t get those garbage mins. Which would be the case if he was considered a back end of the rotation guy. Especially when playing well. So him getting low mins comes off as more strategic than due to lack of performance or role. These are not not preliminary games so maybe that’s it?

He got 21mins a game as a rookie. Why would they be concerned about him playing poorly in the G league if they were willing to play him 21mins a game as a pro? He also started the season his sophomore at SF and then PG. Why would they start him in an NBA lineup if they were concerned he would underperform in the G league?

I'm only suggesting that could have been a reason, i'm not confirming that. But the way he a has struggled to play at the NBA level should be reason enough to give him some minor league action to see how he performs.

My conclusion of frank thus far is that he is not a guy that looks to score or push the pace, So if that's the kind of guard that you are looking for then look elsewhere, but if you want a slow down methodical, half court player, who doesn't take any risk, than franks your guy.

We both have a very good Idea how FIZ wants to play, and it aint the frank way..

The main thing that has gotten Frank pulled has been him not being able to consistently hit the open jumpers. When he shot 45 fg% & 50% from 3 for the pre season. Fizz started him.

Believe it was also about passing up opportunities.

knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:Drawing conclusions based on biased views or limited data is a bad look.
Frank plays 13 min, what did the other NBA players log in?

Bias...lol..like i don't like frank or something

I critic my son and nephews the same way..

Drawing conclusions on incomplete facts. Not good.
Nobody here promoting fantasy on Frank. At the end of the day he plays, he succeeds or he don't. But you drew your conclusions and that's what we push back on.
As for his trade value? Its little.