GustavBahler wrote:Would rather develop the young core until 2021, and sign Giannis as an FA. If we traded for him, and the supporting cast was meh, he could still walk. Unless Knicks show they have a solid
foundation, it will be tough to keep great players, or just very good ones.

I don't think the best-case scenario of our core would mesh with Giannis. I doubt the best-case scenario of our core will even mesh with each other, lol. We have too many guys that are ball-dominant and that get tunnel-vision for this to trend positively.

I know that RJ Barrett, in particular, is the shiny new toy for us but I think he epitomizes this issue and will only serve to exasperate it. For context, he attempted nearly TWICE the shots Zion did in college (702 vs 435) despite Zion being vastly more talented AND vastly more efficient (43% va 68%). And with him having been born with the basketball equivalent of a silver spoon in his mouth, having access to the training staff's of professional athletes and mentorship, I doubt his game changes beyond being an inefficient, iso-scorer/stat stuffer. Guys like Barrett require you to run nearly everything through them for them to maintain "value" (e.g. DeMarr Derozan or Rudy Gay), which, in turn, handicaps the success of the team in the process, since defenses can cue in on those players in the playoffs. But with a Giannis on the team, those guys become relegated to role player status and that typically hasn't worked well for their ilk in the past (see Rudy Gay when the Grizzlies got good; Russell Westbrook with anyone).

But to a small market team like the Bucks, I could easily see them taking these guys just to avoid losing Giannis for nothing and to keep attendence up. With a legitimate talent like Giannis, they are only counterproductive, which forces us to build a team of free agents.

GustavBahler wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Would rather develop the young core until 2021, and sign Giannis as an FA. If we traded for him, and the supporting cast was meh, he could still walk. Unless Knicks show they have a solid
foundation, it will be tough to keep great players, or just very good ones.

I don't think the best-case scenario of our core would mesh with Giannis. I doubt the best-case scenario of our core will even mesh with each other, lol. We have too many guys that are ball-dominant and that get tunnel-vision for this to trend positively.

I know that RJ Barrett, in particular, is the shiny new toy for us but I think he epitomizes this issue and will only serve to exasperate it. For context, he attempted nearly TWICE the shots Zion did in college (702 vs 435) despite Zion being vastly more talented AND vastly more efficient (43% va 68%). And with him having been born with the basketball equivalent of a silver spoon in his mouth, having access to the training staff's of professional athletes and mentorship, I doubt his game changes beyond being an inefficient, iso-scorer/stat stuffer. Guys like Barrett require you to run nearly everything through them for them to maintain "value" (e.g. DeMarr Derozan or Rudy Gay), which, in turn, handicaps the success of the team in the process, since defenses can cue in on those players in the playoffs. But with a Giannis on the team, those guys become relegated to role player status and that typically hasn't worked well for their ilk in the past (see Rudy Gay when the Grizzlies got good; Russell Westbrook with anyone).

But to a small market team like the Bucks, I could easily see them taking these guys just to avoid losing Giannis for nothing and to keep attendence up. With a legitimate talent like Giannis, they are only counterproductive, which forces us to build a team of free agents.

Its waaaay too soon to say that a rook after his first pro game, (and the rest of this young core) cannot mesh with any star. Unless its a chemistry issue , like with Irving. You're following the exact playbook thats given the Knicks the rep that it has with the rest of the league over the last 20 years or so. These are talented players. Some will stick, some wont but will still have value. We need to find out which is which before making big deals, let alone gut a roster for a player who will be an FA soon after. Believe its been proven over and over until ownership and mgmt demonstrates they have their act together, attracting or keeping elite players will be a problem. You just outlined a plan that will keep players away IMO. Knicks need to build an organization worth joining. Not there yet.

I don't think it's too early to speculate on our youth. Most of them have NBA experience and outside of shooting improvements, a players toolbox generally doesn't change. Overall improvement is almost exclusively characterized by the extent a player can scale what they already do i.e. being more efficient.

As for our M.O. in the league, I think that is a byproduct of how incompetent management is and not what we're doing with our draft picks. In the past 30 years, Derek Fisher, Kobe Bryant and (for the moment) Kyle Kuzma are the only Lakers not to have been traded by that franchise. Yet during that span, they've managed to sign/acquire stars such as Shaq, LeBron, Pau Gasol, Karl Malone/Gary Payton, etc while winning titles. On the other hand, we've acquired legitimate stars like Carmelo Anthony, proceed to run them into the ground due to our inability to surround them with talent and then try to scapegoat them for the failures of the franchise. And in my opinion, that culture has not changed an iota; we just tried publicly shaming Durant to excuse the fact he chose the Nets over us. Worse still is that we're repeating the cycles of the past: overpaying marginal talent in hopes they pop and hinging much of our success on free agency rather than trying to accumulate assets and developing from within.

Like I said before, attempting to trade for Giannis will gut our team. Unfortunately, the Bucks will have no interest in re-threads like Bobby Portis, Reggie Bullock, Elfrid Payton, etc. What they will have interest in are draft picks, which we forsaked for the opportunity to get guys who won't be on the team in 2 years. However, that lightly protected 2024-2026 1st round GSW pick attached to Andre Igoudala and that 2023-2026 1st round MIA pick attached to Mo Harkless would've certainly interested the Bucks in a Giannis trade scenario. Matter of fact, that MIA pick has already served its end in acquiring a superstar in that Paul George trade to LAC. And that's the difference between us and competent management, which keeps us a laughingstock and them making decisions that always lead to being a contender.

newyorker4ever wrote:Don't even do this to yourselves. Giannes loves playing in a small market and has no desire for the big city and big market thing so i really can't see him leaving in free agency. I guess anything can happen but i really don't see him leaving the Bucks.

They said the same thing about Durant. They said the same thing about Kawhi. They said the same thing about LeBron, to a lesser extent. Since that point, they've each found themselves onto 2 other teams. They are no longer options for us....Giannis, however, will be fair game. And with the Bucks commiting long-term money to marginal, aging talents, they aren't going to be any better than what they've been. That's a recipe for a disgruntled superstar.

NardDogNation wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:Don't even do this to yourselves. Giannes loves playing in a small market and has no desire for the big city and big market thing so i really can't see him leaving in free agency. I guess anything can happen but i really don't see him leaving the Bucks.

They said the same thing about Durant. They said the same thing about Kawhi. They said the same thing about LeBron, to a lesser extent. Since that point, they've each found themselves onto 2 other teams. They are no longer options for us....Giannis, however, will be fair game. And with the Bucks commiting long-term money to marginal, aging talents, they aren't going to be any better than what they've been. That's a recipe for a disgruntled superstar.

Those are all bad comparisons to Giannes and how much he's already been outspoken about wanting to stay a Buck and stay in Milwaukee. By the way when did they say Lebron would never leave Clev and KD would never leave OKC or GSW and who are they? Because i'm talking about Giannes himself talking about his love for Milwaukee not what the media have to say because they're always wrong about players and where they want to stay or play. I also think these international players have a much different outlook than the american players have.

Like i said in my post, anything can happen so it wouldn't shock me if he did leave in two years if the Bucks get worse as a team each year which could happen but the east is so weak i'm thinking they'll be right there in the top 3-4 each of the next two years.

NardDogNation wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Would rather develop the young core until 2021, and sign Giannis as an FA. If we traded for him, and the supporting cast was meh, he could still walk. Unless Knicks show they have a solid
foundation, it will be tough to keep great players, or just very good ones.

I don't think the best-case scenario of our core would mesh with Giannis. I doubt the best-case scenario of our core will even mesh with each other, lol. We have too many guys that are ball-dominant and that get tunnel-vision for this to trend positively.

I know that RJ Barrett, in particular, is the shiny new toy for us but I think he epitomizes this issue and will only serve to exasperate it. For context, he attempted nearly TWICE the shots Zion did in college (702 vs 435) despite Zion being vastly more talented AND vastly more efficient (43% va 68%). And with him having been born with the basketball equivalent of a silver spoon in his mouth, having access to the training staff's of professional athletes and mentorship, I doubt his game changes beyond being an inefficient, iso-scorer/stat stuffer. Guys like Barrett require you to run nearly everything through them for them to maintain "value" (e.g. DeMarr Derozan or Rudy Gay), which, in turn, handicaps the success of the team in the process, since defenses can cue in on those players in the playoffs. But with a Giannis on the team, those guys become relegated to role player status and that typically hasn't worked well for their ilk in the past (see Rudy Gay when the Grizzlies got good; Russell Westbrook with anyone).

But to a small market team like the Bucks, I could easily see them taking these guys just to avoid losing Giannis for nothing and to keep attendence up. With a legitimate talent like Giannis, they are only counterproductive, which forces us to build a team of free agents.

Its waaaay too soon to say that a rook after his first pro game, (and the rest of this young core) cannot mesh with any star. Unless its a chemistry issue , like with Irving. You're following the exact playbook thats given the Knicks the rep that it has with the rest of the league over the last 20 years or so. These are talented players. Some will stick, some wont but will still have value. We need to find out which is which before making big deals, let alone gut a roster for a player who will be an FA soon after. Believe its been proven over and over until ownership and mgmt demonstrates they have their act together, attracting or keeping elite players will be a problem. You just outlined a plan that will keep players away IMO. Knicks need to build an organization worth joining. Not there yet.

I don't think it's too early to speculate on our youth. Most of them have NBA experience and outside of shooting improvements, a players toolbox generally doesn't change. Overall improvement is almost exclusively characterized by the extent a player can scale what they already do i.e. being more efficient.

As for our M.O. in the league, I think that is a byproduct of how incompetent management is and not what we're doing with our draft picks. In the past 30 years, Derek Fisher, Kobe Bryant and (for the moment) Kyle Kuzma are the only Lakers not to have been traded by that franchise. Yet during that span, they've managed to sign/acquire stars such as Shaq, LeBron, Pau Gasol, Karl Malone/Gary Payton, etc while winning titles. On the other hand, we've acquired legitimate stars like Carmelo Anthony, proceed to run them into the ground due to our inability to surround them with talent and then try to scapegoat them for the failures of the franchise. And in my opinion, that culture has not changed an iota; we just tried publicly shaming Durant to excuse the fact he chose the Nets over us. Worse still is that we're repeating the cycles of the past: overpaying marginal talent in hopes they pop and hinging much of our success on free agency rather than trying to accumulate assets and developing from within.

Like I said before, attempting to trade for Giannis will gut our team. Unfortunately, the Bucks will have no interest in re-threads like Bobby Portis, Reggie Bullock, Elfrid Payton, etc. What they will have interest in are draft picks, which we forsaked for the opportunity to get guys who won't be on the team in 2 years. However, that lightly protected 2024-2026 1st round GSW pick attached to Andre Igoudala and that 2023-2026 1st round MIA pick attached to Mo Harkless would've certainly interested the Bucks in a Giannis trade scenario. Matter of fact, that MIA pick has already served its end in acquiring a superstar in that Paul George trade to LAC. And that's the difference between us and competent management, which keeps us a laughingstock and them making decisions that always lead to being a contender.

Giannis couldnt get out of the East with his supporting cast, you're suggesting we bring him to NY and make do with less. Less is what we would have in any Giannis trade. Lakers knew how to build from the ground up. Thats where their success started West/ Worthy/Magic/Kobe they built around those foundational pieces. We as of now have none who have proven themselves.

Some of tbe stars you named were close to retirement when they got to the Lakers. West was able to sign Kwahi because he knows how to build a team from the ground up. Our rep is throwing money at stars without a foundation in place, and no follow through. That has to change before elite players do more than give lip service to signing with the Knicks.

Then we won 17 games and no one wanted to meet w us because we sucked ass. Good he idea that we were a better destination was a bad joke played on the fans. Hey we might suck at our jobs but you’ll like it here better because .... (you’re a masochist)

So we spent 70 million on role players which has rebuilt our relationship w dirtbag agents but everyone else is still laughing at us