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smackeddog
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6/17/2019  11:57 AM
Nalod wrote:GSW fist title was a godsend. The path was paved by injuries and they sustained.
They got three titles in 5 trips. Pretty damn good!

You know the longer you look at history, the more Phil Jax stands taller. The Bulls and Lakers were two stars and a lot of role players. THey were awesome!!!

GSW has defined the decade. Great team and stands on its greatness. Toronto got Lebron out but still had to deal with leagues best Milwaukee and the freak.

I prefer the 2 stars plus role players lineups- just seemed right, and meant the talent was better spread through the league for more entertaining playoffs. Not a fan of 3 star teams.

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Uptown
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6/17/2019  5:15 PM
Nalod wrote:GSW fist title was a godsend. The path was paved by injuries and they sustained.
They got three titles in 5 trips. Pretty damn good!

You know the longer you look at history, the more Phil Jax stands taller. The Bulls and Lakers were two stars and a lot of role players. THey were awesome!!!

GSW has defined the decade. Great team and stands on its greatness. Toronto got Lebron out but still had to deal with leagues best Milwaukee and the freak.

If you are only gonna have 2 superstars on a team, it helped phil a lot by having the best player to ever play the game during one run, and two of the top ten players to ever play the game on one team.

Nalod
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6/18/2019  1:55 PM
Uptown wrote:
Nalod wrote:GSW fist title was a godsend. The path was paved by injuries and they sustained.
They got three titles in 5 trips. Pretty damn good!

You know the longer you look at history, the more Phil Jax stands taller. The Bulls and Lakers were two stars and a lot of role players. THey were awesome!!!

GSW has defined the decade. Great team and stands on its greatness. Toronto got Lebron out but still had to deal with leagues best Milwaukee and the freak.

If you are only gonna have 2 superstars on a team, it helped phil a lot by having the best player to ever play the game during one run, and two of the top ten players to ever play the game on one team.

Jordan was 26 and in the league 6 years when Phil became his coach. He as not the Goat yet.
Kobe was a 22 year old in his 4th season when Phil took him on. Shaq Stature was already set.
Kerr took Curry to two time MVP. MDA took Nash to similar levels.
All these guys were allstars and destined to be allstars and perhaps HOF prolific scorers. PHil made them Goats. This fiction that Phil walked into greatness is nonsense. These guys bought into something and achieved more AFTER Phil became their coach.

You don't show a fool a job half done!
Chandler
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6/18/2019  2:27 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/18/2019  2:56 PM
Nalod wrote:
Uptown wrote:
Nalod wrote:GSW fist title was a godsend. The path was paved by injuries and they sustained.
They got three titles in 5 trips. Pretty damn good!

You know the longer you look at history, the more Phil Jax stands taller. The Bulls and Lakers were two stars and a lot of role players. THey were awesome!!!

GSW has defined the decade. Great team and stands on its greatness. Toronto got Lebron out but still had to deal with leagues best Milwaukee and the freak.

If you are only gonna have 2 superstars on a team, it helped phil a lot by having the best player to ever play the game during one run, and two of the top ten players to ever play the game on one team.

Jordan was 26 and in the league 6 years when Phil became his coach. He as not the Goat yet.
Kobe was a 22 year old in his 4th season when Phil took him on. Shaq Stature was already set.
Kerr took Curry to two time MVP. MDA took Nash to similar levels.
All these guys were allstars and destined to be allstars and perhaps HOF prolific scorers. PHil made them Goats. This fiction that Phil walked into greatness is nonsense. These guys bought into something and achieved more AFTER Phil became their coach.

OKC had KD, Harden, Russell, Ibaka and a good bench and did't win a championship.

this idea that winning is just talent is a bunch of blatant nonsense perpetuated by people who will say anything to discredit Jackson because he failed as Knicks prez

No one would argue about the importance of talent, but there's a lot more to it than that, starting with chemistry, self-sacrifice, common purpose etc. And of course it would be a greater accomplishment if Jackson had won with a bunch of scrubs.


even in the Holy Trinity Miami years, the Heat only won 2 of 4, and one of those two years the refs gave them a gift in the Boston series

the fact that Phil may have sucked as president does not mean the current FO is any better -- either as a factual or logical matter. As it stands, the facts are we came off a 17 win season, we completed the disillusionment of our best draft pick in a generation (who knows; maybe he couldn't be "righted" but we'll know soon enough if this was a smart move or dumb one), we criticized Phil for devaluing Melo (where subsequent events proved his lack of value) and then in the next breath we devalue a young pg who plays D (who at least, unlike Melo, is not a prima donna).

I think there are a lot of folks who (perhaps rightfully) blasted Phil who are now faced with the proposition that we can go from bad to worse. As it stands, us being on the upswing is based purely on hope and conjecture at the moment -- not evidence

As a fan i will continue to root for them and would prefer to win than be right in my assessment of the FO; but it ain't looking good

Martin: Hezonja will be in the NBA next year. Martin was right; I was wrong. :-(
TripleThreat
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6/19/2019  2:36 AM
Chandler wrote:the fact that Phil may have sucked as president does not mean the current FO is any better -- either as a factual or logical matter.


Scott Perry has actual experience in NBA front offices. He was trained and groomed for the job. It's that simple.

Say you needed heart surgery.

And Scott Perry could be the best heart surgeon in the world. Or average. Or the worst.

But Phil Jackson is a dentist. He might be the best dentist in the entire world, but does that mean jack **** when you need ****ing hard surgery?

The WORST heart surgeon in the entire world is still TRAINED and GROOMED for the job of doing surgery on hearts. But a dentist?

Scott Perry was trained for this job. For a long ass time. This specific job. This is a FACT.

Phil Jackson is a HOF coach. But it's not the same job as running a front office. Not even close. He never ran a front office before. THIS IS A FACT.

Here's some logic for you, for better or worse, if you need heart surgery, pick the guy ACTUALLY TRAINED FOR THE MOTHERFUCKING JOB. How hard is this? Apparently for the Knicks, really ****ing hard. How dumb do you have to be to hire a baker to fix your brakes? Or a mechanic to make you a wedding cake?

You know Phil Jackson was going to suck. BECAUSE HE WAS NEVER TRAINED FOR THE FUCKING JOB. Just like a baker trying to fix your brakes is gonna **** it all up.

We don't know if Scott Perry is going to suck. BECAUSE HE WAS TRAINED FOR THIS FUCKING JOB. He actually has a chance. He's a baker told to make a wedding cake. He's a mechanic told to fix some brakes. He's a heart surgeon told to fix a heart.

I am being very logical here.

"Should have paid Lin and rid ourselves of Melo. Lin makes every team better." - HofstraBBall 11/12/2018
Marv
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6/19/2019  7:49 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
Chandler wrote:the fact that Phil may have sucked as president does not mean the current FO is any better -- either as a factual or logical matter.


Scott Perry has actual experience in NBA front offices. He was trained and groomed for the job. It's that simple.

Say you needed heart surgery.

And Scott Perry could be the best heart surgeon in the world. Or average. Or the worst.

But Phil Jackson is a dentist. He might be the best dentist in the entire world, but does that mean jack **** when you need ****ing hard surgery?

The WORST heart surgeon in the entire world is still TRAINED and GROOMED for the job of doing surgery on hearts. But a dentist?

Scott Perry was trained for this job. For a long ass time. This specific job. This is a FACT.

Phil Jackson is a HOF coach. But it's not the same job as running a front office. Not even close. He never ran a front office before. THIS IS A FACT.

Here's some logic for you, for better or worse, if you need heart surgery, pick the guy ACTUALLY TRAINED FOR THE MOTHERFUCKING JOB. How hard is this? Apparently for the Knicks, really ****ing hard. How dumb do you have to be to hire a baker to fix your brakes? Or a mechanic to make you a wedding cake?

You know Phil Jackson was going to suck. BECAUSE HE WAS NEVER TRAINED FOR THE FUCKING JOB. Just like a baker trying to fix your brakes is gonna **** it all up.

We don't know if Scott Perry is going to suck. BECAUSE HE WAS TRAINED FOR THIS FUCKING JOB. He actually has a chance. He's a baker told to make a wedding cake. He's a mechanic told to fix some brakes. He's a heart surgeon told to fix a heart.

I am being very logical here.

is it really that simple?

or are you oversimplifying it?

haven't there been plenty of "dentists" who have done pretty ****ing good jobs operating on hearts?

Larry Bird?

Pat Riley?

Joe Dumars?

Danny Ainge?

Rod Thorn?

Ernie Grunfeld?

Geoff Petrie?

didn't Phil Jackson just ****ing suck at the job?

“This board has become a repository for mentally unstable attention seekers. Or gimmick posters.” - sebstar
Nalod
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6/19/2019  8:24 AM
1. No winning coach ever won without talent.
2. PHil had no NBA head coach experience. He had been an assistant in the NBA and head in the CBA. Krause made a bold outlier choice at that moment. A team that Doug Collins could not get past Detroit. A team with a very head strong Jordan who was trying to do too much. Quite amazing that PHil was able to sell him on the triangle. Kobe’s ego wrestled with it far too much. Remember, PHil left and came back. Kobe was so head strong Phil wanted him traded. Kobe bought back in. Phil was not incorrect. Rudy Tomjanovich, a two time winning coach could not get it out of him. Phil came back and did.
3. IN retrospect Phil was not entirely incorrect. His First choice of Kerr was a good one.
4. The book is closing on Frank. He is 20. Would PHil have “fixed him”? He was to be his French Triangle kid. We moved on.
5. Drafted KP was a no brained at the 4. Wanting him traded got him fired. He was correct.

What did Phil in was his low energy and that he wanted too much control but he could not talk with other teams in a productive manner. Perhaps Phil in a Jerry West advisory position was really more of what he wanted. But to uproot him from his west coast life and his ego was going to take a stupid amount of cash and power. Dolan was on the right track when he rehired MIlls, but then got seduced by the thought of Phil as a superior mind outlier to create magic. Dolan at least did not meddle and Phil did not double down on trading picks. He tried to tread water until we had picks by bringing in Rose and Noah to support Melo. We know the rest.

Jordan and Jackson created something special. Winning coaches have big ego’s. They are often not likable as they are arrogant. Krause’s ego and Jordans Ego were all large too. 6 chips in 9 years was a great run.

You don't show a fool a job half done!
Marv
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6/19/2019  9:06 AM
Nalod wrote: Dolan was on the right track when he rehired MIlls, but then got seduced by the thought of Phil as a superior mind outlier to create magic.

nalod i will always believe that dolan hired phil because that knick fan from milwaukee had a huge anti-dolan demonstration all set for outside the garden. that guy (unlike our friend here calling for the verrazzano christmas walk ) had done a super credible job of convincing knick fans to all show up in massive protest. dolan, possessor of a trumpian set of rabbbit ears, freaked the **** out and hired phil on a name-your-price basis in the nick of time to throw meat to the lions and buy his way out of being the object of very public derision.

“This board has become a repository for mentally unstable attention seekers. Or gimmick posters.” - sebstar
Chandler
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6/19/2019  9:26 AM
Marv wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
Chandler wrote:the fact that Phil may have sucked as president does not mean the current FO is any better -- either as a factual or logical matter.


Scott Perry has actual experience in NBA front offices. He was trained and groomed for the job. It's that simple.

Say you needed heart surgery.

And Scott Perry could be the best heart surgeon in the world. Or average. Or the worst.

But Phil Jackson is a dentist. He might be the best dentist in the entire world, but does that mean jack **** when you need ****ing hard surgery?

The WORST heart surgeon in the entire world is still TRAINED and GROOMED for the job of doing surgery on hearts. But a dentist?

Scott Perry was trained for this job. For a long ass time. This specific job. This is a FACT.

Phil Jackson is a HOF coach. But it's not the same job as running a front office. Not even close. He never ran a front office before. THIS IS A FACT.

Here's some logic for you, for better or worse, if you need heart surgery, pick the guy ACTUALLY TRAINED FOR THE MOTHERFUCKING JOB. How hard is this? Apparently for the Knicks, really ****ing hard. How dumb do you have to be to hire a baker to fix your brakes? Or a mechanic to make you a wedding cake?

You know Phil Jackson was going to suck. BECAUSE HE WAS NEVER TRAINED FOR THE FUCKING JOB. Just like a baker trying to fix your brakes is gonna **** it all up.

We don't know if Scott Perry is going to suck. BECAUSE HE WAS TRAINED FOR THIS FUCKING JOB. He actually has a chance. He's a baker told to make a wedding cake. He's a mechanic told to fix some brakes. He's a heart surgeon told to fix a heart.

I am being very logical here.

is it really that simple?

or are you oversimplifying it?

haven't there been plenty of "dentists" who have done pretty ****ing good jobs operating on hearts?

Larry Bird?

Pat Riley?

Joe Dumars?

Danny Ainge?

Rod Thorn?

Ernie Grunfeld?

Geoff Petrie?

didn't Phil Jackson just ****ing suck at the job?

agree 100% Marv

add Jerry West too. Several of these guys killed it. So I don't think it was necessarily a mistake to hire him


the other thing missed is in truth Phil was president, not GM; and he came to a dysfunctional organization. Yes the organization failed and his personal failures in the role are well documented.

But none of the above in any ways proves that the current FO is better and the facts suggest otherwise. We're talking about a guy who failed at Orlando and Sacramento (who wanted no compensation); we're not talking Red Auerbach here

Martin: Hezonja will be in the NBA next year. Martin was right; I was wrong. :-(
martin
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6/19/2019  10:00 AM
Chandler wrote:
Marv wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
Chandler wrote:the fact that Phil may have sucked as president does not mean the current FO is any better -- either as a factual or logical matter.


Scott Perry has actual experience in NBA front offices. He was trained and groomed for the job. It's that simple.

Say you needed heart surgery.

And Scott Perry could be the best heart surgeon in the world. Or average. Or the worst.

But Phil Jackson is a dentist. He might be the best dentist in the entire world, but does that mean jack **** when you need ****ing hard surgery?

The WORST heart surgeon in the entire world is still TRAINED and GROOMED for the job of doing surgery on hearts. But a dentist?

Scott Perry was trained for this job. For a long ass time. This specific job. This is a FACT.

Phil Jackson is a HOF coach. But it's not the same job as running a front office. Not even close. He never ran a front office before. THIS IS A FACT.

Here's some logic for you, for better or worse, if you need heart surgery, pick the guy ACTUALLY TRAINED FOR THE MOTHERFUCKING JOB. How hard is this? Apparently for the Knicks, really ****ing hard. How dumb do you have to be to hire a baker to fix your brakes? Or a mechanic to make you a wedding cake?

You know Phil Jackson was going to suck. BECAUSE HE WAS NEVER TRAINED FOR THE FUCKING JOB. Just like a baker trying to fix your brakes is gonna **** it all up.

We don't know if Scott Perry is going to suck. BECAUSE HE WAS TRAINED FOR THIS FUCKING JOB. He actually has a chance. He's a baker told to make a wedding cake. He's a mechanic told to fix some brakes. He's a heart surgeon told to fix a heart.

I am being very logical here.

is it really that simple?

or are you oversimplifying it?

haven't there been plenty of "dentists" who have done pretty ****ing good jobs operating on hearts?

Larry Bird?

Pat Riley?

Joe Dumars?

Danny Ainge?

Rod Thorn?

Ernie Grunfeld?

Geoff Petrie?

didn't Phil Jackson just ****ing suck at the job?

agree 100% Marv

add Jerry West too. Several of these guys killed it. So I don't think it was necessarily a mistake to hire him


the other thing missed is in truth Phil was president, not GM; and he came to a dysfunctional organization. Yes the organization failed and his personal failures in the role are well documented.

But none of the above in any ways proves that the current FO is better and the facts suggest otherwise. We're talking about a guy who failed at Orlando and Sacramento (who wanted no compensation); we're not talking Red Auerbach here

Phil had to do 1 thing as President: Hire someone like Scott Perry and then fall asleep for like 4 years.

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Nalod
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6/19/2019  12:27 PM
Chandler wrote:
Marv wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
Chandler wrote:the fact that Phil may have sucked as president does not mean the current FO is any better -- either as a factual or logical matter.


Scott Perry has actual experience in NBA front offices. He was trained and groomed for the job. It's that simple.

Say you needed heart surgery.

And Scott Perry could be the best heart surgeon in the world. Or average. Or the worst.

But Phil Jackson is a dentist. He might be the best dentist in the entire world, but does that mean jack **** when you need ****ing hard surgery?

The WORST heart surgeon in the entire world is still TRAINED and GROOMED for the job of doing surgery on hearts. But a dentist?

Scott Perry was trained for this job. For a long ass time. This specific job. This is a FACT.

Phil Jackson is a HOF coach. But it's not the same job as running a front office. Not even close. He never ran a front office before. THIS IS A FACT.

Here's some logic for you, for better or worse, if you need heart surgery, pick the guy ACTUALLY TRAINED FOR THE MOTHERFUCKING JOB. How hard is this? Apparently for the Knicks, really ****ing hard. How dumb do you have to be to hire a baker to fix your brakes? Or a mechanic to make you a wedding cake?

You know Phil Jackson was going to suck. BECAUSE HE WAS NEVER TRAINED FOR THE FUCKING JOB. Just like a baker trying to fix your brakes is gonna **** it all up.

We don't know if Scott Perry is going to suck. BECAUSE HE WAS TRAINED FOR THIS FUCKING JOB. He actually has a chance. He's a baker told to make a wedding cake. He's a mechanic told to fix some brakes. He's a heart surgeon told to fix a heart.

I am being very logical here.

is it really that simple?

or are you oversimplifying it?

haven't there been plenty of "dentists" who have done pretty ****ing good jobs operating on hearts?

Larry Bird?

Pat Riley?

Joe Dumars?

Danny Ainge?

Rod Thorn?

Ernie Grunfeld?

Geoff Petrie?

didn't Phil Jackson just ****ing suck at the job?

agree 100% Marv

add Jerry West too. Several of these guys killed it. So I don't think it was necessarily a mistake to hire him


the other thing missed is in truth Phil was president, not GM; and he came to a dysfunctional organization. Yes the organization failed and his personal failures in the role are well documented.

But none of the above in any ways proves that the current FO is better and the facts suggest otherwise. We're talking about a guy who failed at Orlando and Sacramento (who wanted no compensation); we're not talking Red Auerbach here

Perry obviously demonstrated some proficiency in Detroit, and perhaps in Orlando where his boss made bad moves. Maybe his ascent logically was because he offered up a dissenting opinions and while did not get promoted he was respected for it?
And then hired in Sac?
Its unusual to hire someone that just moved as he was to SAC but teams don't ask for compensation when you promote. He was assistant GM in Sac. That's not valid.

Really Phil had to let Mills do the heavy lifting and perhaps Perry or someone else been his assistant.

Go back and under stand what the seduction was. Record Mogul and very wealthy person by the name of Irving Azoff is a friend of Dolans and PHil. He was very influential in this. He sold Dolan on the concept which really was not a bad idea. Remember, Dolan had fired Grunwald and had just bought on Mills. On the Mckinsey consulting suggesting he was told to stay away.
Dolan gave him everything a man could ever want. Untold riches, plane access and he thought he could kind of do it not fulltime.

Good idea. Bad execution. Also the team was bloody awful with the bare cupboard of picks and yoot.
The Triangle? We can blame it if we choose. Fact is Phil needed to coach it. If not we saw what happened.

Funny, he was able to sell Jordan and Kobe (more reluctant)on the system. He saw the potential of Frank, a big 6-6 long armed kid with a team first maturity to be his point on the triangle. He could not get the toughness needed to be the team alpha. Jordan and Kobe obviously had it and had to reign it in.
Lebron was the perfect specimen to run the triangle.

You don't show a fool a job half done!
Game Thread:2019 playoffs are here!!!!

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