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What's the consensus on Dennis Smith Jr?
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CrushAlot
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3/21/2019  8:47 PM
Cartman718 wrote:The consensus is he will be out of the league in 5 years. sorry not high on him at all...europe and china are calling
Really? You are the first guy I have heard say this. I think there is a split opinion in terms of guys that make their living talking about this stuff. Guys that I know think he is going to be a very good pro include Nste Duncan, Danny Leroux, and Sam Vecenie. I haven’t heard anyone say he would be out of the league or in Europe. Who is a part of this consensus?
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Cartman718
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3/21/2019  8:49 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:The consensus is he will be out of the league in 5 years. sorry not high on him at all...europe and china are calling
Really? You are the first guy I have heard say this. I think there is a split opinion in terms of guys that make their living talking about this stuff. Guys that I know think he is going to be a very good pro include Nste Duncan, Danny Leroux, and Sam Vecenie. I haven’t heard anyone say he would be out of the league or in Europe. Who is a part of this consensus?

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TripleThreat
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3/22/2019  2:40 AM
jskinny35 wrote:I get BPA - what I'm asking/saying is the FO has to decide what they think of DSJr or next year is going to be a big distraction if we also select Ja Morant. Nothing is certain, but we have to make some sense of a decision if we feel he/DSJr is the one to go forward with. DSJr didn't like sharing the spotlight/ball with Luka - that's partially why he's here. The same thing is likely to happen if we draft Ja. We have enough information to believe that having 2 young, talented PG's is likely to result in this. I'm not saying we can't draft Ja and then trade DSJr - I'm asking us fans that have been watching to weigh in on if they believe DSJr has the goods or potential to be our future PG. It's a small sample size and not an easy call - but if we think he has it - it would likely influence who we draft (eg RJ instead of Ja).


Biggest issues with DSJr - Not a good decision maker. CANNOT play off the ball. ( Some guys can and are unwilling, some guys can but their system/role dictates otherwise, some guys will shift on and off depending the matchup.)

Basic basketball is not complex. One guy does the majority of the dribbling/ball handling/core decision making. Everyone else needs to move/cut, pass or shoot.

Core issues with DSJr - Offers no real 3 And D value. Doesn't have an elite three point shot. Is a below average defender in general.

Jmpasq
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3/22/2019  6:55 AM
SupremeCommander wrote:We need so much that balancing the roster is irrelevant. If Ja is the third best player and we draft third, that's who we take. That has little to nothing to do with DSJ and everything go do with the roster being a little talent dumpster fire

Yeah seriously we suck really bad take the BPA.

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Jmpasq
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3/22/2019  7:05 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
jskinny35 wrote:I get BPA - what I'm asking/saying is the FO has to decide what they think of DSJr or next year is going to be a big distraction if we also select Ja Morant. Nothing is certain, but we have to make some sense of a decision if we feel he/DSJr is the one to go forward with. DSJr didn't like sharing the spotlight/ball with Luka - that's partially why he's here. The same thing is likely to happen if we draft Ja. We have enough information to believe that having 2 young, talented PG's is likely to result in this. I'm not saying we can't draft Ja and then trade DSJr - I'm asking us fans that have been watching to weigh in on if they believe DSJr has the goods or potential to be our future PG. It's a small sample size and not an easy call - but if we think he has it - it would likely influence who we draft (eg RJ instead of Ja).


Biggest issues with DSJr - Not a good decision maker. CANNOT play off the ball. ( Some guys can and are unwilling, some guys can but their system/role dictates otherwise, some guys will shift on and off depending the matchup.)

Basic basketball is not complex. One guy does the majority of the dribbling/ball handling/core decision making. Everyone else needs to move/cut, pass or shoot.

Core issues with DSJr - Offers no real 3 And D value. Doesn't have an elite three point shot. Is a below average defender in general.

As usual spot on analysis. I don't think he knows how or is willing to play without the ball in his hands.

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Nalod
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3/22/2019  7:08 AM
Sometimes young players have to learn that their athletic ability is not sustainable in the long NBA season and youth alone can’t keep you from getting hurt.
I can’t speak for his level of conditioning but if he wants to get paid “Sore back” has to not be a chronic issue. Fatigue also reduces judgement.
If Ja Morant is the best player by a trusted metric then you go that way.
newyorknewyork
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3/22/2019  8:00 AM
While the goal is def Zion. If Morant is available when we pick and Zion is gone. You draft Morant and don't think twice. He is in elite prospect and looks like a franchise player PG.

He is a better prospect than Smith was/is. He has none of the baggage, none of the injury history, all of the athleticism, and level above Smith in vision.

Ja Morant is the PG NY has been waiting for.

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newyorknewyork
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3/22/2019  8:09 AM
https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
Allanfan20
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3/22/2019  11:13 AM
If Cleveland gets the second pick, I can see them drafting RJ, since they have Sexton. Therefore, the sonsensus is that Dennis is praying to dear God the Knicks don’t get the second or third pick because he can kiss his starting PG job goodbye if they do.
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knickstorrents
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3/22/2019  12:43 PM
DSJr is a trade chip. We draft the BPA, we suck too bad to try to draft for position. All our positions suck!!!
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jskinny35
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3/22/2019  12:54 PM
Thanks for all the comments - agree that Ja seems the guy for us (if Zion is off the board). Can always trade DSJr to a Phoenix of other team needing a point guard.
newyorknewyork
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3/22/2019  2:09 PM
jskinny35 wrote:Thanks for all the comments - agree that Ja seems the guy for us (if Zion is off the board). Can always trade DSJr to a Phoenix of other team needing a point guard.

The question isn't about Smith though. The question is if Kyrie and Durant are looking to team up. And Durant would say only come if Kyrie was gonna be paired up with him.

IMO I would still draft Morant and line Kyrie up at SG.

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fishmike
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3/22/2019  3:40 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:The consensus is he will be out of the league in 5 years. sorry not high on him at all...europe and china are calling
Really? You are the first guy I have heard say this. I think there is a split opinion in terms of guys that make their living talking about this stuff. Guys that I know think he is going to be a very good pro include Nste Duncan, Danny Leroux, and Sam Vecenie. I haven’t heard anyone say he would be out of the league or in Europe. Who is a part of this consensus?
If I say it its hate because I "am a Frank guy."
Right now DSjr doesnt do anything well enough to stay in the league for very long. We havent seen anything that says floor general or PG. We have seen every 4th-5th game flashes of high caliber play followed but utterly head scratching play. There is no urgency on defense either. I mean he's super athletic and can surely get the rim. Right now he looks like a bench scorer. A taller Nate Robinson. A guy who shows some tantalizing scoring prowess but has no clear path to NBA success.

I hope I am wrong! He's got talent. I am not high on DSjr, but I do like the collection of guys that INCLUDE DSjr. He's a super athletic fast quick guy who can surely score and handle the ball. Can we work that into a winning NBA team? We'll see! This what it means to rebuild. Some of these guys take a few years.

He's not ready to run a team. 6th man would be good where he's asked to come in and attack and score.

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TripleThreat
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3/22/2019  10:28 PM
Nalod wrote:Sometimes young players have to learn that their athletic ability is not sustainable in the long NBA season and youth alone can’t keep you from getting hurt.


You are making this more insanely complicated than it actually needs to be here.

Dennis Smith Jr CANNOT play off the ball. Which is fine for any player who can dominate the ball and consistently overwhelm the other team offensively. This is pretty rare and hard to do. James Harden can play off the ball. But he doesn't do it. If he was totally incapable of doing it for the sake of example, he'd still be a valuable NBA player. Smith Jr cannot do this. He is not bringing enough offensively to compensate for his inability to play any other way.

Two issues come from this

1) He doesn't know how yet. He's still a young player and this might simply be something he can change because he's still in his prime developmental window. This is possible but really unlikely. He played this way in college, his decision making ( as mentioned before) is actually pretty ****ty, he's always had a ****ty attitude and one of the few coaches known to be able to fix anyone gave up on him. If Carlisle can't fix you, you are sort of ****ed.

2) He's incapable but no one can confirm until he's outside his prime developmental window. Some guys just can't do certain thing. In that case, those guys have to hope their tradeoffs fit into some kind of role for a team. Most of the time, that doesn't happen.

I suppose this is an area I can understand why most civilians tend to get fuzzy about regarding pro athletes.

There's life stupid and then there's sports stupid. You can be life smart but sports stupid. It's hard for just about everyone out there, including guys who make it to the pros, to process thing at game speed. Insanely hard. The elite guys look EFFORTLESS. Because their TIMING, TECHNIQUE and FUNDAMENTALS are TOTALLY FLAWLESS. They are processing the environment around them at or above actual game speed. Rex Ryan, aka Sexy Rexy is sort of life stupid. Players love playing for him because he's straight up and he's genuine. But you need to be sort of life smart to be a head coach ( you are managing people and managing their expectations) He is however sports smart in a way that is borderline genius. He can dissect game play in REAL TIME. Many guys need to slow it down on film over and over. Sexy Rexy can do it on the fly. That's just incredibly ****ing hard.

Todd Van Poppel was a big time pitching prospect for the dynasty Oakland A's. He was life smart. But sports stupid. Put the ball and play and he'd find a way to **** it all up.

The first example is how one pathway has one set so overwhelming that you can find a role ( Rexy can be a D Coordinator anywhere) The 2nd is how it just does not work and the player is basically ****ed.

DSJr comes off as life stupid and sports stupid. You are asking someone to make better decisions when it's evident he is a ****ty decision maker. He's on the Knicks right now instead of a future quasi-contender in Dallas, because he made ****ty decisions.

You are saying he needs to be smarter. But based on what makes you believe that **** is going to happen?

If you can't dominate, you better learn to play off the ****ing ball. If you CAN'T because you are INCAPABLE, then you are ****ed.

Many here are looking at DSJr and thinking he could still be a star. I'm saying dip**** needs to learn how to play a role first. Benching himself in Dallas was idiotic. He left a stable franchise and an elite developmental coach and a decent but insane egomaniac owner for a rocky team gutted with a questionable coach and a ****heel owner.

DENNIS SMITH JR NEEDS TO PLAY OFF THE BALL EFFECTIVELY.

Things he can do to help himself. Work on his three point shot relentlessly. Beg Drew Hanlon to help him no matter what. Give 150 percent effort on defense all the time. Work with his coaches to game plan specific looks that highlight his strengths and shade his limitations. ( Basically accept he's not a feature guy but a guy who needs to work within a role) This would be a series of GOOD DECISIONS. Anyone think this is gonna happen though given what he's shown?

You don't pass on Ja Morant ( I don't even like Morant that much) to hope DSJr completely turns it all around.

KingQuis
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3/22/2019  11:36 PM
As far as I’m concerned he’s a place holder.he is a tweener 2 guard masquerading as a point with poor floor general leadership skills. The Knicks should be tired of those types. Our pick should be Ja Morant... even if we get the first but that’s me.
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Ira
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3/23/2019  5:26 AM
DSJ is a good young player, but not good enough to influence the Knicks draft strategy with the first pick. BPA all the way!
nykshaknbake
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3/23/2019  7:22 AM
DSj has good handle, has pretty good passing ability and gets to the rim. He needs al9 of work on the 3 ball and free throws. He shows flashes of defense but that's not his strong suit, but in today's nba a lot of PGs dont play much defense. Overall he's far and away the best PG option currently on the team.
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3/23/2019  7:27 AM
fishmike wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:The consensus is he will be out of the league in 5 years. sorry not high on him at all...europe and china are calling
Really? You are the first guy I have heard say this. I think there is a split opinion in terms of guys that make their living talking about this stuff. Guys that I know think he is going to be a very good pro include Nste Duncan, Danny Leroux, and Sam Vecenie. I haven’t heard anyone say he would be out of the league or in Europe. Who is a part of this consensus?
If I say it its hate because I "am a Frank guy."
Right now DSjr doesnt do anything well enough to stay in the league for very long. We havent seen anything that says floor general or PG. We have seen every 4th-5th game flashes of high caliber play followed but utterly head scratching play. There is no urgency on defense either. I mean he's super athletic and can surely get the rim. Right now he looks like a bench scorer. A taller Nate Robinson. A guy who shows some tantalizing scoring prowess but has no clear path to NBA success.

I hope I am wrong! He's got talent. I am not high on DSjr, but I do like the collection of guys that INCLUDE DSjr. He's a super athletic fast quick guy who can surely score and handle the ball. Can we work that into a winning NBA team? We'll see! This what it means to rebuild. Some of these guys take a few years.

He's not ready to run a team. 6th man would be good where he's asked to come in and attack and score.


Well I do think you being a Frank guy cloud things for you. Dsj has shown good drive and kick ability and his passing is better usually than anyone else on the team. His stats aren't spectacular but pretty middling in the NBA. But to a Frank guy that = out of the league and Frank is a future all star. You clearly are measuring the two with different rulers.
Jmpasq
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3/23/2019  9:26 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
Nalod wrote:Sometimes young players have to learn that their athletic ability is not sustainable in the long NBA season and youth alone can’t keep you from getting hurt.


You are making this more insanely complicated than it actually needs to be here.

Dennis Smith Jr CANNOT play off the ball. Which is fine for any player who can dominate the ball and consistently overwhelm the other team offensively. This is pretty rare and hard to do. James Harden can play off the ball. But he doesn't do it. If he was totally incapable of doing it for the sake of example, he'd still be a valuable NBA player. Smith Jr cannot do this. He is not bringing enough offensively to compensate for his inability to play any other way.

Two issues come from this

1) He doesn't know how yet. He's still a young player and this might simply be something he can change because he's still in his prime developmental window. This is possible but really unlikely. He played this way in college, his decision making ( as mentioned before) is actually pretty ****ty, he's always had a ****ty attitude and one of the few coaches known to be able to fix anyone gave up on him. If Carlisle can't fix you, you are sort of ****ed.

2) He's incapable but no one can confirm until he's outside his prime developmental window. Some guys just can't do certain thing. In that case, those guys have to hope their tradeoffs fit into some kind of role for a team. Most of the time, that doesn't happen.

I suppose this is an area I can understand why most civilians tend to get fuzzy about regarding pro athletes.

There's life stupid and then there's sports stupid. You can be life smart but sports stupid. It's hard for just about everyone out there, including guys who make it to the pros, to process thing at game speed. Insanely hard. The elite guys look EFFORTLESS. Because their TIMING, TECHNIQUE and FUNDAMENTALS are TOTALLY FLAWLESS. They are processing the environment around them at or above actual game speed. Rex Ryan, aka Sexy Rexy is sort of life stupid. Players love playing for him because he's straight up and he's genuine. But you need to be sort of life smart to be a head coach ( you are managing people and managing their expectations) He is however sports smart in a way that is borderline genius. He can dissect game play in REAL TIME. Many guys need to slow it down on film over and over. Sexy Rexy can do it on the fly. That's just incredibly ****ing hard.

Todd Van Poppel was a big time pitching prospect for the dynasty Oakland A's. He was life smart. But sports stupid. Put the ball and play and he'd find a way to **** it all up.

The first example is how one pathway has one set so overwhelming that you can find a role ( Rexy can be a D Coordinator anywhere) The 2nd is how it just does not work and the player is basically ****ed.

DSJr comes off as life stupid and sports stupid. You are asking someone to make better decisions when it's evident he is a ****ty decision maker. He's on the Knicks right now instead of a future quasi-contender in Dallas, because he made ****ty decisions.

You are saying he needs to be smarter. But based on what makes you believe that **** is going to happen?

If you can't dominate, you better learn to play off the ****ing ball. If you CAN'T because you are INCAPABLE, then you are ****ed.

Many here are looking at DSJr and thinking he could still be a star. I'm saying dip**** needs to learn how to play a role first. Benching himself in Dallas was idiotic. He left a stable franchise and an elite developmental coach and a decent but insane egomaniac owner for a rocky team gutted with a questionable coach and a ****heel owner.

DENNIS SMITH JR NEEDS TO PLAY OFF THE BALL EFFECTIVELY.

Things he can do to help himself. Work on his three point shot relentlessly. Beg Drew Hanlon to help him no matter what. Give 150 percent effort on defense all the time. Work with his coaches to game plan specific looks that highlight his strengths and shade his limitations. ( Basically accept he's not a feature guy but a guy who needs to work within a role) This would be a series of GOOD DECISIONS. Anyone think this is gonna happen though given what he's shown?

You don't pass on Ja Morant ( I don't even like Morant that much) to hope DSJr completely turns it all around.


What we haven't seen yet with Dennis Smith Jr. is a situation where he can play on the ball but with an effective scoring option. Doncic is a superior offensive player but he plays on the ball as well. Could Dennis Smith Jr. defer as a scorer and instead use his drive and kick ability to find the open man. Can he improve his outside game enough where he can play the 2 man game with an elite front court option? To me everything is dependent on him improving his shooting. Derrick Rose did it. There is no reason Dennis Smith Jr. can't improve as an outside shooter. If he can't do it he may not be salvageable. His peak may be the primary focus off the bench. Either way his efficeny has to improve.
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Welpee
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3/24/2019  7:02 AM
jskinny35 wrote:If we land the #1 it seems like it's Zion. If we land pick #2-5 we have some decisions to make about who to select. If we stick with best prospect available - it seems like we might be looking strongly at Ja Morant. So... do we think Dennis Smith Jr has the tools and talent to be our point guard of the future? If not, we pick Ja and case closed. If we do think - do we still select Ja and try to trade DSJr to a team that needs a point (eg Phx)? Wondering what people here think about DSJr and his possible future here? I'm torn because he seems to have the tools and athletic ability, yet there seems to be a PG quality possibly missing... he's still young, our team sucked this year - so maybe unfair to evaluate? That said, if we are sold on his talent and potential - then we're likely looking at RJ, Rui and others... We in or out on DSJr?
To me, DSJr looks like is an upgraded/more athletic version of O.J. Mayo. Much hype out of high school, puts up numbers but has little impact on winning. He's a guy who thinks he's better than he really is and comes across as a guy who thinks he's already arrived. He's here, he's young and we'll probably be stuck with him for the next couple of years so I'm not giving up on DSjr. But I didn't want us to draft him and watching him play so far as a Knicks just confirmed that in my mind.

I hope the guy has a major attitude and training adjustment during the off-season. Nobody cares about you impressing veteran NBA players in pick-up games with your hops and athleticism. Work on your shooting, defense, hitting free throws, and being a facilitator versus thinking you're already a superstar in-waiting.

What's the consensus on Dennis Smith Jr?

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