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Frank is the definition of a glue guy
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knicks1248
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2/11/2019  9:55 AM
GustavBahler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Welpee wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:Dont Think anyone can or has questioned his professionalism, willingness to work hard or the ability to be a good role player as his floor. Problem is that the Knicks used a lotto pick for one.

Bingo! If the goal was to pick up a glue guy we could've traded down and picked up two or three of them.

Would be disingenuous to proclaim they drafted Frank with the goal of him being a glue guy. More likely these things packaged with his oversized frame had them envisioning something greater. Frank was projected as a lottery pick all season when he was coming out and was drafted around his projected range. The only thing that even made it controversial is the teams that passed on DSjr before the Knicks picked.

Would also be hard to really know if he was that type of glue player at 18 yrs old at the time of the draft. Only through his reactions though these trials and tribulations would that start to become established. Lotto pick JJ Reddick is considered a glue guy for reference.

Phil drafted Frank to run the Triangle. He saw him as the prototypical Triangle player. Thats why he was picked in the first round. Its why Fisher was hired as a coach, while he was still a player, with no coaching experience. He knew how to run the Triangle. Why I was initially concerned about Phil as an exec. He said he wanted a system implimented when he was first hired, not necessarily the Triangle. We know now, that was not true.

This is true. Now are you saying this as you believe Frank would not have been a lottery pick if not for Phil? Also Gaines pushed for the Frank pick. Phil may have advised what he was looking for and Gaines felt Frank was the best fit, that's very possible. But I am also sure there was more discussed about Frank than just the triangle.

Phil also traded for Rose who was as non triangle PG as you can be.

Yes. Thought Frank should have been picked in the second round, if he was still there. Phil likely told Gaines that he wanted him to find the best player to run his system, and thats what Gaines tried to do. Phil got Rose and Noah, flushed the rebuild, because he got playoff fever. Went for the quick fix.

Believe the worst thing Ive said about Frank is his lack of urgency to become more of a threat on offense. Nothing about his overall work ethic. His offense is at the bottom of the league. Until Frank changes that, he's going to hear it from fans.

I completely disagree with that, he never once stated the word PLAYOFFS in any of the yrs he was here.

Bringing in a couple of veterans is what you do when your developing the right way, staying competitive, incorporating a winning environment, and culture.

You think the celtics development process is killing Tatum and Brown, because they're winning..

you think rebuilding means losing 65 games and getting a high pick.

I remember Duncan winning a championship in his rookie yr surrounded by all veterans, look how he turned out..What we're doing to these young boys is horrible IMO..they can even determine a good shot from a bad one..

ES
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newyorknewyork
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2/11/2019  10:08 AM
EnySpree wrote:I just wanna say... Trier, Dotson, DSJ, Mudiay, Kadeem Allen and even he settles in John Jenkins will all have out played this blue guy....

Now I'm all for helping this kid around but not at the money he's projected to get after next year. He's becoming a very expensive glue guy. Especially one that's getting out played in his own team.

Hey if that ends up being the case then so be it. But I think the notion of what a glue guy is seems to be off. As I get the feeling that people only think of tail end of the bench type of guy. A glue guy can be a starter or even a featured player.

Burke came in humble off the G league and didn't complain at all when DNP etc. He showed high character and could be looked at as a glue guy imo if that's the character he continues to display no matter where he goes. Courtney Lee another example. In terms of guys who played for the Knicks.

"Yo I'm a Knick!! Whhhaat" - RJ Barrett
GustavBahler
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2/11/2019  10:13 AM    LAST EDITED: 2/11/2019  10:15 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Welpee wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:Dont Think anyone can or has questioned his professionalism, willingness to work hard or the ability to be a good role player as his floor. Problem is that the Knicks used a lotto pick for one.

Bingo! If the goal was to pick up a glue guy we could've traded down and picked up two or three of them.

Would be disingenuous to proclaim they drafted Frank with the goal of him being a glue guy. More likely these things packaged with his oversized frame had them envisioning something greater. Frank was projected as a lottery pick all season when he was coming out and was drafted around his projected range. The only thing that even made it controversial is the teams that passed on DSjr before the Knicks picked.

Would also be hard to really know if he was that type of glue player at 18 yrs old at the time of the draft. Only through his reactions though these trials and tribulations would that start to become established. Lotto pick JJ Reddick is considered a glue guy for reference.

Phil drafted Frank to run the Triangle. He saw him as the prototypical Triangle player. Thats why he was picked in the first round. Its why Fisher was hired as a coach, while he was still a player, with no coaching experience. He knew how to run the Triangle. Why I was initially concerned about Phil as an exec. He said he wanted a system implimented when he was first hired, not necessarily the Triangle. We know now, that was not true.

This is true. Now are you saying this as you believe Frank would not have been a lottery pick if not for Phil? Also Gaines pushed for the Frank pick. Phil may have advised what he was looking for and Gaines felt Frank was the best fit, that's very possible. But I am also sure there was more discussed about Frank than just the triangle.

Phil also traded for Rose who was as non triangle PG as you can be.

Yes. Thought Frank should have been picked in the second round, if he was still there. Phil likely told Gaines that he wanted him to find the best player to run his system, and thats what Gaines tried to do. Phil got Rose and Noah, flushed the rebuild, because he got playoff fever. Went for the quick fix.

Believe the worst thing Ive said about Frank is his lack of urgency to become more of a threat on offense. Nothing about his overall work ethic. His offense is at the bottom of the league. Until Frank changes that, he's going to hear it from fans.

I completely disagree with that, he never once stated the word PLAYOFFS in any of the yrs he was here.

Bringing in a couple of veterans is what you do when your developing the right way, staying competitive, incorporating a winning environment, and culture.

You think the celtics development process is killing Tatum and Brown, because they're winning..

you think rebuilding means losing 65 games and getting a high pick.

I remember Duncan winning a championship in his rookie yr surrounded by all veterans, look how he turned out..What we're doing to these young boys is horrible IMO..they can even determine a good shot from a bad one..

So, the only veterans Phil could bring in, was a me first starting PG, who missed more games over the previous 4 years, than any other player. The other being relegated to the bench before the trade, because of lack of effectiveness, repeated injuries, and issues with the coach. And lets top it off with a 70 million dollar contract!

KP and Lopez were one of the best frontline tandems in the league. Lopez's contract was a relative bargain. Nothing wrong with adding vets, just not those vets. Noah and Rose werent brought in to be mentors. If they were, that was a colossal mistake.

They were brought in to be starters, so Phil had something to tweet about in the offseason.

Nalod
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2/11/2019  10:38 AM
Burke is not "Glue". I think it means a player good at many things. Shane Battier, Luke Walton, Michael cooper, Iggy, Diaw, Rick Fox, Luc Longly, Rodman......
Defense, ball movement in the system, rebounding, and some offense. Frank is still physically immature but was projected with that frame to have a high ceiling. Kid was still growing last season.
Frank has survived two Front offices and two coach's in his first two seasons. That's a lot for any rookie, let alone one that perhaps would thrive in a system.
We don't really have the roster for that now. Thus the team is patient. That not something we are used to as fans.
You don't show a fool a job half done!
knicks1248
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2/11/2019  10:53 AM    LAST EDITED: 2/11/2019  10:55 AM
GustavBahler wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Welpee wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:Dont Think anyone can or has questioned his professionalism, willingness to work hard or the ability to be a good role player as his floor. Problem is that the Knicks used a lotto pick for one.

Bingo! If the goal was to pick up a glue guy we could've traded down and picked up two or three of them.

Would be disingenuous to proclaim they drafted Frank with the goal of him being a glue guy. More likely these things packaged with his oversized frame had them envisioning something greater. Frank was projected as a lottery pick all season when he was coming out and was drafted around his projected range. The only thing that even made it controversial is the teams that passed on DSjr before the Knicks picked.

Would also be hard to really know if he was that type of glue player at 18 yrs old at the time of the draft. Only through his reactions though these trials and tribulations would that start to become established. Lotto pick JJ Reddick is considered a glue guy for reference.

Phil drafted Frank to run the Triangle. He saw him as the prototypical Triangle player. Thats why he was picked in the first round. Its why Fisher was hired as a coach, while he was still a player, with no coaching experience. He knew how to run the Triangle. Why I was initially concerned about Phil as an exec. He said he wanted a system implimented when he was first hired, not necessarily the Triangle. We know now, that was not true.

This is true. Now are you saying this as you believe Frank would not have been a lottery pick if not for Phil? Also Gaines pushed for the Frank pick. Phil may have advised what he was looking for and Gaines felt Frank was the best fit, that's very possible. But I am also sure there was more discussed about Frank than just the triangle.

Phil also traded for Rose who was as non triangle PG as you can be.

Yes. Thought Frank should have been picked in the second round, if he was still there. Phil likely told Gaines that he wanted him to find the best player to run his system, and thats what Gaines tried to do. Phil got Rose and Noah, flushed the rebuild, because he got playoff fever. Went for the quick fix.

Believe the worst thing Ive said about Frank is his lack of urgency to become more of a threat on offense. Nothing about his overall work ethic. His offense is at the bottom of the league. Until Frank changes that, he's going to hear it from fans.

I completely disagree with that, he never once stated the word PLAYOFFS in any of the yrs he was here.

Bringing in a couple of veterans is what you do when your developing the right way, staying competitive, incorporating a winning environment, and culture.

You think the celtics development process is killing Tatum and Brown, because they're winning..

you think rebuilding means losing 65 games and getting a high pick.

I remember Duncan winning a championship in his rookie yr surrounded by all veterans, look how he turned out..What we're doing to these young boys is horrible IMO..they can even determine a good shot from a bad one..

So, the only veterans Phil could bring in, was a me first starting PG, who missed more games over the previous 4 years, than any other player. The other being relegated to the bench before the trade, because of lack of effectiveness, repeated injuries, and issues with the coach. And lets top it off with a 70 million dollar contract!

KP and Lopez were one of the best frontline tandems in the league. Lopez's contract was a relative bargain. Nothing wrong with adding vets, just not those vets. Noah and Rose werent brought in to be mentors. If they were, that was a colossal mistake.

They were brought in to be starters, so Phil had something to tweet about in the offseason.

What kind of an impact did Jack have on frank, because he regress as the yr went on. I still think franks first month in the league was his best stretch.

KP never once complained about Rose or Melo taking all the shots, not to mention the triangle Distractions..So you didn't think NOAH (a former DOY) would be a good Vet for KP to learn from, one of the best passing bigmen in the league at one point

ES
Nalod
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2/11/2019  11:00 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Welpee wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:Dont Think anyone can or has questioned his professionalism, willingness to work hard or the ability to be a good role player as his floor. Problem is that the Knicks used a lotto pick for one.

Bingo! If the goal was to pick up a glue guy we could've traded down and picked up two or three of them.

Would be disingenuous to proclaim they drafted Frank with the goal of him being a glue guy. More likely these things packaged with his oversized frame had them envisioning something greater. Frank was projected as a lottery pick all season when he was coming out and was drafted around his projected range. The only thing that even made it controversial is the teams that passed on DSjr before the Knicks picked.

Would also be hard to really know if he was that type of glue player at 18 yrs old at the time of the draft. Only through his reactions though these trials and tribulations would that start to become established. Lotto pick JJ Reddick is considered a glue guy for reference.

Phil drafted Frank to run the Triangle. He saw him as the prototypical Triangle player. Thats why he was picked in the first round. Its why Fisher was hired as a coach, while he was still a player, with no coaching experience. He knew how to run the Triangle. Why I was initially concerned about Phil as an exec. He said he wanted a system implimented when he was first hired, not necessarily the Triangle. We know now, that was not true.

This is true. Now are you saying this as you believe Frank would not have been a lottery pick if not for Phil? Also Gaines pushed for the Frank pick. Phil may have advised what he was looking for and Gaines felt Frank was the best fit, that's very possible. But I am also sure there was more discussed about Frank than just the triangle.

Phil also traded for Rose who was as non triangle PG as you can be.

Yes. Thought Frank should have been picked in the second round, if he was still there. Phil likely told Gaines that he wanted him to find the best player to run his system, and thats what Gaines tried to do. Phil got Rose and Noah, flushed the rebuild, because he got playoff fever. Went for the quick fix.

Believe the worst thing Ive said about Frank is his lack of urgency to become more of a threat on offense. Nothing about his overall work ethic. His offense is at the bottom of the league. Until Frank changes that, he's going to hear it from fans.

I completely disagree with that, he never once stated the word PLAYOFFS in any of the yrs he was here.

Bringing in a couple of veterans is what you do when your developing the right way, staying competitive, incorporating a winning environment, and culture.

You think the celtics development process is killing Tatum and Brown, because they're winning..

you think rebuilding means losing 65 games and getting a high pick.

I remember Duncan winning a championship in his rookie yr surrounded by all veterans, look how he turned out..What we're doing to these young boys is horrible IMO..they can even determine a good shot from a bad one..

So, the only veterans Phil could bring in, was a me first starting PG, who missed more games over the previous 4 years, than any other player. The other being relegated to the bench before the trade, because of lack of effectiveness, repeated injuries, and issues with the coach. And lets top it off with a 70 million dollar contract!

KP and Lopez were one of the best frontline tandems in the league. Lopez's contract was a relative bargain. Nothing wrong with adding vets, just not those vets. Noah and Rose werent brought in to be mentors. If they were, that was a colossal mistake.

They were brought in to be starters, so Phil had something to tweet about in the offseason.

What kind of an impact did Jack have on frank, because he regress as the yr went on. I still think franks first month in the league was he best stretch.

KP never once complained about Rose or Melo taking all the shots, not to mention the triangle Distractions..So you didn't think NOAH (a former DOY) would be a good Vet for KP to learn from, one of the best passing bigmen in the league at one point



Rainman, just because a player is on the same team does not mean he is a teacher or said rookie is a good pupil? Was Noah a good teacher? Do you go to practices? You know things? KP never complained? Publicy or private? Maybe he did not get the ball enough for his taste? Maybe Janis was a thorn in the side of FO and they all had enough. Not everything is for public consumption. Far from it.
Not all players are great teachers.

A glue guy is not one that Sniffs it and writes nonsense.

You don't show a fool a job half done!
NYKBocker
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2/11/2019  11:14 AM
I am calling this backcourt... "89 Boys"
GustavBahler
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2/11/2019  11:18 AM    LAST EDITED: 2/11/2019  11:19 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Welpee wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:Dont Think anyone can or has questioned his professionalism, willingness to work hard or the ability to be a good role player as his floor. Problem is that the Knicks used a lotto pick for one.

Bingo! If the goal was to pick up a glue guy we could've traded down and picked up two or three of them.

Would be disingenuous to proclaim they drafted Frank with the goal of him being a glue guy. More likely these things packaged with his oversized frame had them envisioning something greater. Frank was projected as a lottery pick all season when he was coming out and was drafted around his projected range. The only thing that even made it controversial is the teams that passed on DSjr before the Knicks picked.

Would also be hard to really know if he was that type of glue player at 18 yrs old at the time of the draft. Only through his reactions though these trials and tribulations would that start to become established. Lotto pick JJ Reddick is considered a glue guy for reference.

Phil drafted Frank to run the Triangle. He saw him as the prototypical Triangle player. Thats why he was picked in the first round. Its why Fisher was hired as a coach, while he was still a player, with no coaching experience. He knew how to run the Triangle. Why I was initially concerned about Phil as an exec. He said he wanted a system implimented when he was first hired, not necessarily the Triangle. We know now, that was not true.

This is true. Now are you saying this as you believe Frank would not have been a lottery pick if not for Phil? Also Gaines pushed for the Frank pick. Phil may have advised what he was looking for and Gaines felt Frank was the best fit, that's very possible. But I am also sure there was more discussed about Frank than just the triangle.

Phil also traded for Rose who was as non triangle PG as you can be.

Yes. Thought Frank should have been picked in the second round, if he was still there. Phil likely told Gaines that he wanted him to find the best player to run his system, and thats what Gaines tried to do. Phil got Rose and Noah, flushed the rebuild, because he got playoff fever. Went for the quick fix.

Believe the worst thing Ive said about Frank is his lack of urgency to become more of a threat on offense. Nothing about his overall work ethic. His offense is at the bottom of the league. Until Frank changes that, he's going to hear it from fans.

I completely disagree with that, he never once stated the word PLAYOFFS in any of the yrs he was here.

Bringing in a couple of veterans is what you do when your developing the right way, staying competitive, incorporating a winning environment, and culture.

You think the celtics development process is killing Tatum and Brown, because they're winning..

you think rebuilding means losing 65 games and getting a high pick.

I remember Duncan winning a championship in his rookie yr surrounded by all veterans, look how he turned out..What we're doing to these young boys is horrible IMO..they can even determine a good shot from a bad one..

So, the only veterans Phil could bring in, was a me first starting PG, who missed more games over the previous 4 years, than any other player. The other being relegated to the bench before the trade, because of lack of effectiveness, repeated injuries, and issues with the coach. And lets top it off with a 70 million dollar contract!

KP and Lopez were one of the best frontline tandems in the league. Lopez's contract was a relative bargain. Nothing wrong with adding vets, just not those vets. Noah and Rose werent brought in to be mentors. If they were, that was a colossal mistake.

They were brought in to be starters, so Phil had something to tweet about in the offseason.

What kind of an impact did Jack have on frank, because he regress as the yr went on. I still think franks first month in the league was his best stretch.

KP never once complained about Rose or Melo taking all the shots, not to mention the triangle Distractions..So you didn't think NOAH (a former DOY) would be a good Vet for KP to learn from, one of the best passing bigmen in the league at one point

Jack was a good no drama mentor, who did a respectable job running the point. Former head coaches have said that Jack would make a great head coach. Thats a mentor. Remember an interview he did, talked about Frank developing a more aggressive mindset. Rose taught Frank to openly say that job one was a max deal, and went on to play that way. With an AWOL thrown in. Mentor?

Rose was ranked below G leaguers when it came to getting others involved. Wish I could find that Post article.

All the mentoring in the world wont help Frank if he doesnt play with more aggression. Thats what Jack was trying to say.

As for Noah, I was a fan since his Florida days, talked about trading for him, before his DPOY. The Noah at the time of the trade was a different player. I remember KP saying that Noah gave him some good tips, but thats a long way from being a mentor. Its about walking it like you talk it. Neither Rose, or Noah did.

If Rose and Noah hadnt been brought to NY, and the resulting drama did not ensue, Im guessing KP and his brother would have less of a reason to skip the exit meeting.

newyorknewyork
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2/11/2019  11:27 AM
Nalod wrote:Burke is not "Glue". I think it means a player good at many things. Shane Battier, Luke Walton, Michael cooper, Iggy, Diaw, Rick Fox, Luc Longly, Rodman......
Defense, ball movement in the system, rebounding, and some offense. Frank is still physically immature but was projected with that frame to have a high ceiling. Kid was still growing last season.
Frank has survived two Front offices and two coach's in his first two seasons. That's a lot for any rookie, let alone one that perhaps would thrive in a system.
We don't really have the roster for that now. Thus the team is patient. That not something we are used to as fans.

Glue holds things together. There is examples of glue on the court and glue types in the locker room. If Burke was more of a mainstay then he could have developed into a strong locker room presence.

"Yo I'm a Knick!! Whhhaat" - RJ Barrett
franco12
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2/11/2019  11:30 AM
Frank had the greatest chance of being both an All Star and Bust when drafted.

Just asking for a friend, but how much longer before we call him a bust?

He's such a frustrating prospect - he's shown flashes of being a really good player. But then he takes a step back, he's hurt. We don't see him.

Nalod
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2/11/2019  11:58 AM
GustavBahler wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Welpee wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:Dont Think anyone can or has questioned his professionalism, willingness to work hard or the ability to be a good role player as his floor. Problem is that the Knicks used a lotto pick for one.

Bingo! If the goal was to pick up a glue guy we could've traded down and picked up two or three of them.

Would be disingenuous to proclaim they drafted Frank with the goal of him being a glue guy. More likely these things packaged with his oversized frame had them envisioning something greater. Frank was projected as a lottery pick all season when he was coming out and was drafted around his projected range. The only thing that even made it controversial is the teams that passed on DSjr before the Knicks picked.

Would also be hard to really know if he was that type of glue player at 18 yrs old at the time of the draft. Only through his reactions though these trials and tribulations would that start to become established. Lotto pick JJ Reddick is considered a glue guy for reference.

Phil drafted Frank to run the Triangle. He saw him as the prototypical Triangle player. Thats why he was picked in the first round. Its why Fisher was hired as a coach, while he was still a player, with no coaching experience. He knew how to run the Triangle. Why I was initially concerned about Phil as an exec. He said he wanted a system implimented when he was first hired, not necessarily the Triangle. We know now, that was not true.

This is true. Now are you saying this as you believe Frank would not have been a lottery pick if not for Phil? Also Gaines pushed for the Frank pick. Phil may have advised what he was looking for and Gaines felt Frank was the best fit, that's very possible. But I am also sure there was more discussed about Frank than just the triangle.

Phil also traded for Rose who was as non triangle PG as you can be.

Yes. Thought Frank should have been picked in the second round, if he was still there. Phil likely told Gaines that he wanted him to find the best player to run his system, and thats what Gaines tried to do. Phil got Rose and Noah, flushed the rebuild, because he got playoff fever. Went for the quick fix.

Believe the worst thing Ive said about Frank is his lack of urgency to become more of a threat on offense. Nothing about his overall work ethic. His offense is at the bottom of the league. Until Frank changes that, he's going to hear it from fans.

I completely disagree with that, he never once stated the word PLAYOFFS in any of the yrs he was here.

Bringing in a couple of veterans is what you do when your developing the right way, staying competitive, incorporating a winning environment, and culture.

You think the celtics development process is killing Tatum and Brown, because they're winning..

you think rebuilding means losing 65 games and getting a high pick.

I remember Duncan winning a championship in his rookie yr surrounded by all veterans, look how he turned out..What we're doing to these young boys is horrible IMO..they can even determine a good shot from a bad one..

So, the only veterans Phil could bring in, was a me first starting PG, who missed more games over the previous 4 years, than any other player. The other being relegated to the bench before the trade, because of lack of effectiveness, repeated injuries, and issues with the coach. And lets top it off with a 70 million dollar contract!

KP and Lopez were one of the best frontline tandems in the league. Lopez's contract was a relative bargain. Nothing wrong with adding vets, just not those vets. Noah and Rose werent brought in to be mentors. If they were, that was a colossal mistake.

They were brought in to be starters, so Phil had something to tweet about in the offseason.

What kind of an impact did Jack have on frank, because he regress as the yr went on. I still think franks first month in the league was his best stretch.

KP never once complained about Rose or Melo taking all the shots, not to mention the triangle Distractions..So you didn't think NOAH (a former DOY) would be a good Vet for KP to learn from, one of the best passing bigmen in the league at one point

Jack was a good no drama mentor, who did a respectable job running the point. Former head coaches have said that Jack would make a great head coach. Thats a mentor. Remember an interview he did, talked about Frank developing a more aggressive mindset. Rose taught Frank to openly say that job one was a max deal, and went on to play that way. With an AWOL thrown in. Mentor?

Rose was ranked below G leaguers when it came to getting others involved. Wish I could find that Post article.

All the mentoring in the world wont help Frank if he doesnt play with more aggression. Thats what Jack was trying to say.

As for Noah, I was a fan since his Florida days, talked about trading for him, before his DPOY. The Noah at the time of the trade was a different player. I remember KP saying that Noah gave him some good tips, but thats a long way from being a mentor. Its about walking it like you talk it. Neither Rose, or Noah did.

If Rose and Noah hadnt been brought to NY, and the resulting drama did not ensue, Im guessing KP and his brother would have less of a reason to skip the exit meeting.

What's lost on me is all the issues personal KP would have had were corrected or extracted.
Did Fiz statement about him not running hard really cause him to put Fiz on his "hate" list.
KP was quick to "Gotcha" the moment showing him running on the track. At the time I recall KP might have offended if any notion of him not playing this year. All that was said was if waiting is best for him, we wait.
LIke I said, I don't understand or pretend to be an insider knowing what made KP tick.
Logic dictates that KP if habitually injured would not want the weight of this market on his shoulders. That or the franchise potentially could draft or sign a player that dims his star. If so, then the "winning" thing is crap. I just can't figure what went wrong given all the changes that were made.

You don't show a fool a job half done!
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2/11/2019  12:32 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/11/2019  12:32 PM
franco12 wrote:Frank had the greatest chance of being both an All Star and Bust when drafted.

Just asking for a friend, but how much longer before we call him a bust?

He's such a frustrating prospect - he's shown flashes of being a really good player. But then he takes a step back, he's hurt. We don't see him.

For us, probably through the end of his rookie contract, though he could be a late bloomer for somebody else similar to Kyle Lowry.
GustavBahler
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Joined: 7/12/2010
Member: #3186

2/11/2019  1:00 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/11/2019  1:01 PM
Nalod wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Welpee wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:Dont Think anyone can or has questioned his professionalism, willingness to work hard or the ability to be a good role player as his floor. Problem is that the Knicks used a lotto pick for one.

Bingo! If the goal was to pick up a glue guy we could've traded down and picked up two or three of them.

Would be disingenuous to proclaim they drafted Frank with the goal of him being a glue guy. More likely these things packaged with his oversized frame had them envisioning something greater. Frank was projected as a lottery pick all season when he was coming out and was drafted around his projected range. The only thing that even made it controversial is the teams that passed on DSjr before the Knicks picked.

Would also be hard to really know if he was that type of glue player at 18 yrs old at the time of the draft. Only through his reactions though these trials and tribulations would that start to become established. Lotto pick JJ Reddick is considered a glue guy for reference.

Phil drafted Frank to run the Triangle. He saw him as the prototypical Triangle player. Thats why he was picked in the first round. Its why Fisher was hired as a coach, while he was still a player, with no coaching experience. He knew how to run the Triangle. Why I was initially concerned about Phil as an exec. He said he wanted a system implimented when he was first hired, not necessarily the Triangle. We know now, that was not true.

This is true. Now are you saying this as you believe Frank would not have been a lottery pick if not for Phil? Also Gaines pushed for the Frank pick. Phil may have advised what he was looking for and Gaines felt Frank was the best fit, that's very possible. But I am also sure there was more discussed about Frank than just the triangle.

Phil also traded for Rose who was as non triangle PG as you can be.

Yes. Thought Frank should have been picked in the second round, if he was still there. Phil likely told Gaines that he wanted him to find the best player to run his system, and thats what Gaines tried to do. Phil got Rose and Noah, flushed the rebuild, because he got playoff fever. Went for the quick fix.

Believe the worst thing Ive said about Frank is his lack of urgency to become more of a threat on offense. Nothing about his overall work ethic. His offense is at the bottom of the league. Until Frank changes that, he's going to hear it from fans.

I completely disagree with that, he never once stated the word PLAYOFFS in any of the yrs he was here.

Bringing in a couple of veterans is what you do when your developing the right way, staying competitive, incorporating a winning environment, and culture.

You think the celtics development process is killing Tatum and Brown, because they're winning..

you think rebuilding means losing 65 games and getting a high pick.

I remember Duncan winning a championship in his rookie yr surrounded by all veterans, look how he turned out..What we're doing to these young boys is horrible IMO..they can even determine a good shot from a bad one..

So, the only veterans Phil could bring in, was a me first starting PG, who missed more games over the previous 4 years, than any other player. The other being relegated to the bench before the trade, because of lack of effectiveness, repeated injuries, and issues with the coach. And lets top it off with a 70 million dollar contract!

KP and Lopez were one of the best frontline tandems in the league. Lopez's contract was a relative bargain. Nothing wrong with adding vets, just not those vets. Noah and Rose werent brought in to be mentors. If they were, that was a colossal mistake.

They were brought in to be starters, so Phil had something to tweet about in the offseason.

What kind of an impact did Jack have on frank, because he regress as the yr went on. I still think franks first month in the league was his best stretch.

KP never once complained about Rose or Melo taking all the shots, not to mention the triangle Distractions..So you didn't think NOAH (a former DOY) would be a good Vet for KP to learn from, one of the best passing bigmen in the league at one point

Jack was a good no drama mentor, who did a respectable job running the point. Former head coaches have said that Jack would make a great head coach. Thats a mentor. Remember an interview he did, talked about Frank developing a more aggressive mindset. Rose taught Frank to openly say that job one was a max deal, and went on to play that way. With an AWOL thrown in. Mentor?

Rose was ranked below G leaguers when it came to getting others involved. Wish I could find that Post article.

All the mentoring in the world wont help Frank if he doesnt play with more aggression. Thats what Jack was trying to say.

As for Noah, I was a fan since his Florida days, talked about trading for him, before his DPOY. The Noah at the time of the trade was a different player. I remember KP saying that Noah gave him some good tips, but thats a long way from being a mentor. Its about walking it like you talk it. Neither Rose, or Noah did.

If Rose and Noah hadnt been brought to NY, and the resulting drama did not ensue, Im guessing KP and his brother would have less of a reason to skip the exit meeting.

What's lost on me is all the issues personal KP would have had were corrected or extracted.
Did Fiz statement about him not running hard really cause him to put Fiz on his "hate" list.
KP was quick to "Gotcha" the moment showing him running on the track. At the time I recall KP might have offended if any notion of him not playing this year. All that was said was if waiting is best for him, we wait.
LIke I said, I don't understand or pretend to be an insider knowing what made KP tick.
Logic dictates that KP if habitually injured would not want the weight of this market on his shoulders. That or the franchise potentially could draft or sign a player that dims his star. If so, then the "winning" thing is crap. I just can't figure what went wrong given all the changes that were made.

If KP had been playing this year, and Fizdale didnt click with him, the team didnt play hard enough. I might understand going to mgmt, and expressing his concerns, I would get that. Dont get the backseat driving by KP and his brother.

KP's career might be cut short due to his frame, wants to be in the best position he can. Complaining while you are doing zero on the court to affect the outcome, should have kept KP from making trouble before he got back.

What I believe worried KP with the Rose/Noah deals was due to the sudden change in direction from the course Phil had set just a season earlier. Between that and the passive aggressive tweets by Phil, they were concerned that Phil (as an exec) was in over his head. He was.

Wasnt praising KP for skipping the exit meeting, but I understood what motivated him. His recent spat with mgmt, and his gradual lack of interest in team functions, tells me that KP and brother already had one foot out the door. I doubt anything would have changed that.

I commend Perry/Mills for pulling a move out of "Hunt for Red October"(spoilers) When Ramius ordered the sub to speed up against the incoming torpedo. It smashed into it before the torpedo could arm and explode.

They traded KP before he and brother could hold the team hostage, and get traded to the teams he demanded to be traded to.

Knixkik
Posts: 30117
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #11
USA
2/11/2019  1:10 PM
Nalod wrote:Burke is not "Glue". I think it means a player good at many things. Shane Battier, Luke Walton, Michael cooper, Iggy, Diaw, Rick Fox, Luc Longly, Rodman......
Defense, ball movement in the system, rebounding, and some offense. Frank is still physically immature but was projected with that frame to have a high ceiling. Kid was still growing last season.
Frank has survived two Front offices and two coach's in his first two seasons. That's a lot for any rookie, let alone one that perhaps would thrive in a system.
We don't really have the roster for that now. Thus the team is patient. That not something we are used to as fans.

Iguodala to me has always been the ultimate glue guy. I have hoped Frank can become this type of player eventually, although my expectations for him have fallen.

knicks1248
Posts: 38928
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #582
2/11/2019  1:33 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
Nalod wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Welpee wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:Dont Think anyone can or has questioned his professionalism, willingness to work hard or the ability to be a good role player as his floor. Problem is that the Knicks used a lotto pick for one.

Bingo! If the goal was to pick up a glue guy we could've traded down and picked up two or three of them.

Would be disingenuous to proclaim they drafted Frank with the goal of him being a glue guy. More likely these things packaged with his oversized frame had them envisioning something greater. Frank was projected as a lottery pick all season when he was coming out and was drafted around his projected range. The only thing that even made it controversial is the teams that passed on DSjr before the Knicks picked.

Would also be hard to really know if he was that type of glue player at 18 yrs old at the time of the draft. Only through his reactions though these trials and tribulations would that start to become established. Lotto pick JJ Reddick is considered a glue guy for reference.

Phil drafted Frank to run the Triangle. He saw him as the prototypical Triangle player. Thats why he was picked in the first round. Its why Fisher was hired as a coach, while he was still a player, with no coaching experience. He knew how to run the Triangle. Why I was initially concerned about Phil as an exec. He said he wanted a system implimented when he was first hired, not necessarily the Triangle. We know now, that was not true.

This is true. Now are you saying this as you believe Frank would not have been a lottery pick if not for Phil? Also Gaines pushed for the Frank pick. Phil may have advised what he was looking for and Gaines felt Frank was the best fit, that's very possible. But I am also sure there was more discussed about Frank than just the triangle.

Phil also traded for Rose who was as non triangle PG as you can be.

Yes. Thought Frank should have been picked in the second round, if he was still there. Phil likely told Gaines that he wanted him to find the best player to run his system, and thats what Gaines tried to do. Phil got Rose and Noah, flushed the rebuild, because he got playoff fever. Went for the quick fix.

Believe the worst thing Ive said about Frank is his lack of urgency to become more of a threat on offense. Nothing about his overall work ethic. His offense is at the bottom of the league. Until Frank changes that, he's going to hear it from fans.

I completely disagree with that, he never once stated the word PLAYOFFS in any of the yrs he was here.

Bringing in a couple of veterans is what you do when your developing the right way, staying competitive, incorporating a winning environment, and culture.

You think the celtics development process is killing Tatum and Brown, because they're winning..

you think rebuilding means losing 65 games and getting a high pick.

I remember Duncan winning a championship in his rookie yr surrounded by all veterans, look how he turned out..What we're doing to these young boys is horrible IMO..they can even determine a good shot from a bad one..

So, the only veterans Phil could bring in, was a me first starting PG, who missed more games over the previous 4 years, than any other player. The other being relegated to the bench before the trade, because of lack of effectiveness, repeated injuries, and issues with the coach. And lets top it off with a 70 million dollar contract!

KP and Lopez were one of the best frontline tandems in the league. Lopez's contract was a relative bargain. Nothing wrong with adding vets, just not those vets. Noah and Rose werent brought in to be mentors. If they were, that was a colossal mistake.

They were brought in to be starters, so Phil had something to tweet about in the offseason.

What kind of an impact did Jack have on frank, because he regress as the yr went on. I still think franks first month in the league was his best stretch.

KP never once complained about Rose or Melo taking all the shots, not to mention the triangle Distractions..So you didn't think NOAH (a former DOY) would be a good Vet for KP to learn from, one of the best passing bigmen in the league at one point

Jack was a good no drama mentor, who did a respectable job running the point. Former head coaches have said that Jack would make a great head coach. Thats a mentor. Remember an interview he did, talked about Frank developing a more aggressive mindset. Rose taught Frank to openly say that job one was a max deal, and went on to play that way. With an AWOL thrown in. Mentor?

Rose was ranked below G leaguers when it came to getting others involved. Wish I could find that Post article.

All the mentoring in the world wont help Frank if he doesnt play with more aggression. Thats what Jack was trying to say.

As for Noah, I was a fan since his Florida days, talked about trading for him, before his DPOY. The Noah at the time of the trade was a different player. I remember KP saying that Noah gave him some good tips, but thats a long way from being a mentor. Its about walking it like you talk it. Neither Rose, or Noah did.

If Rose and Noah hadnt been brought to NY, and the resulting drama did not ensue, Im guessing KP and his brother would have less of a reason to skip the exit meeting.

What's lost on me is all the issues personal KP would have had were corrected or extracted.
Did Fiz statement about him not running hard really cause him to put Fiz on his "hate" list.
KP was quick to "Gotcha" the moment showing him running on the track. At the time I recall KP might have offended if any notion of him not playing this year. All that was said was if waiting is best for him, we wait.
LIke I said, I don't understand or pretend to be an insider knowing what made KP tick.
Logic dictates that KP if habitually injured would not want the weight of this market on his shoulders. That or the franchise potentially could draft or sign a player that dims his star. If so, then the "winning" thing is crap. I just can't figure what went wrong given all the changes that were made.

If KP had been playing this year, and Fizdale didnt click with him, the team didnt play hard enough. I might understand going to mgmt, and expressing his concerns, I would get that. Dont get the backseat driving by KP and his brother.

KP's career might be cut short due to his frame, wants to be in the best position he can. Complaining while you are doing zero on the court to affect the outcome, should have kept KP from making trouble before he got back.

What I believe worried KP with the Rose/Noah deals was due to the sudden change in direction from the course Phil had set just a season earlier. Between that and the passive aggressive tweets by Phil, they were concerned that Phil (as an exec) was in over his head. He was.

Wasnt praising KP for skipping the exit meeting, but I understood what motivated him. His recent spat with mgmt, and his gradual lack of interest in team functions, tells me that KP and brother already had one foot out the door. I doubt anything would have changed that.

I commend Perry/Mills for pulling a move out of "Hunt for Red October"(spoilers) When Ramius ordered the sub to speed up against the incoming torpedo. It smashed into it before the torpedo could arm and explode.

They traded KP before he and brother could hold the team hostage, and get traded to the teams he demanded to be traded to.

How was trading for rose a change in direction, we had no PG (especially one that took it to the hole) and you still have a star veteran in melo(who they just resigned) who wanted to win (and requested in his EXIT meeting that a PG should be our top priority)..Frank and rose didn't even play together .

All phil said was that he wouldn't trade draft picks to get better..

ES
GustavBahler
Posts: 36047
Alba Posts: 15
Joined: 7/12/2010
Member: #3186

2/11/2019  1:47 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Nalod wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Welpee wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:Dont Think anyone can or has questioned his professionalism, willingness to work hard or the ability to be a good role player as his floor. Problem is that the Knicks used a lotto pick for one.

Bingo! If the goal was to pick up a glue guy we could've traded down and picked up two or three of them.

Would be disingenuous to proclaim they drafted Frank with the goal of him being a glue guy. More likely these things packaged with his oversized frame had them envisioning something greater. Frank was projected as a lottery pick all season when he was coming out and was drafted around his projected range. The only thing that even made it controversial is the teams that passed on DSjr before the Knicks picked.

Would also be hard to really know if he was that type of glue player at 18 yrs old at the time of the draft. Only through his reactions though these trials and tribulations would that start to become established. Lotto pick JJ Reddick is considered a glue guy for reference.

Phil drafted Frank to run the Triangle. He saw him as the prototypical Triangle player. Thats why he was picked in the first round. Its why Fisher was hired as a coach, while he was still a player, with no coaching experience. He knew how to run the Triangle. Why I was initially concerned about Phil as an exec. He said he wanted a system implimented when he was first hired, not necessarily the Triangle. We know now, that was not true.

This is true. Now are you saying this as you believe Frank would not have been a lottery pick if not for Phil? Also Gaines pushed for the Frank pick. Phil may have advised what he was looking for and Gaines felt Frank was the best fit, that's very possible. But I am also sure there was more discussed about Frank than just the triangle.

Phil also traded for Rose who was as non triangle PG as you can be.

Yes. Thought Frank should have been picked in the second round, if he was still there. Phil likely told Gaines that he wanted him to find the best player to run his system, and thats what Gaines tried to do. Phil got Rose and Noah, flushed the rebuild, because he got playoff fever. Went for the quick fix.

Believe the worst thing Ive said about Frank is his lack of urgency to become more of a threat on offense. Nothing about his overall work ethic. His offense is at the bottom of the league. Until Frank changes that, he's going to hear it from fans.

I completely disagree with that, he never once stated the word PLAYOFFS in any of the yrs he was here.

Bringing in a couple of veterans is what you do when your developing the right way, staying competitive, incorporating a winning environment, and culture.

You think the celtics development process is killing Tatum and Brown, because they're winning..

you think rebuilding means losing 65 games and getting a high pick.

I remember Duncan winning a championship in his rookie yr surrounded by all veterans, look how he turned out..What we're doing to these young boys is horrible IMO..they can even determine a good shot from a bad one..

So, the only veterans Phil could bring in, was a me first starting PG, who missed more games over the previous 4 years, than any other player. The other being relegated to the bench before the trade, because of lack of effectiveness, repeated injuries, and issues with the coach. And lets top it off with a 70 million dollar contract!

KP and Lopez were one of the best frontline tandems in the league. Lopez's contract was a relative bargain. Nothing wrong with adding vets, just not those vets. Noah and Rose werent brought in to be mentors. If they were, that was a colossal mistake.

They were brought in to be starters, so Phil had something to tweet about in the offseason.

What kind of an impact did Jack have on frank, because he regress as the yr went on. I still think franks first month in the league was his best stretch.

KP never once complained about Rose or Melo taking all the shots, not to mention the triangle Distractions..So you didn't think NOAH (a former DOY) would be a good Vet for KP to learn from, one of the best passing bigmen in the league at one point

Jack was a good no drama mentor, who did a respectable job running the point. Former head coaches have said that Jack would make a great head coach. Thats a mentor. Remember an interview he did, talked about Frank developing a more aggressive mindset. Rose taught Frank to openly say that job one was a max deal, and went on to play that way. With an AWOL thrown in. Mentor?

Rose was ranked below G leaguers when it came to getting others involved. Wish I could find that Post article.

All the mentoring in the world wont help Frank if he doesnt play with more aggression. Thats what Jack was trying to say.

As for Noah, I was a fan since his Florida days, talked about trading for him, before his DPOY. The Noah at the time of the trade was a different player. I remember KP saying that Noah gave him some good tips, but thats a long way from being a mentor. Its about walking it like you talk it. Neither Rose, or Noah did.

If Rose and Noah hadnt been brought to NY, and the resulting drama did not ensue, Im guessing KP and his brother would have less of a reason to skip the exit meeting.

What's lost on me is all the issues personal KP would have had were corrected or extracted.
Did Fiz statement about him not running hard really cause him to put Fiz on his "hate" list.
KP was quick to "Gotcha" the moment showing him running on the track. At the time I recall KP might have offended if any notion of him not playing this year. All that was said was if waiting is best for him, we wait.
LIke I said, I don't understand or pretend to be an insider knowing what made KP tick.
Logic dictates that KP if habitually injured would not want the weight of this market on his shoulders. That or the franchise potentially could draft or sign a player that dims his star. If so, then the "winning" thing is crap. I just can't figure what went wrong given all the changes that were made.

If KP had been playing this year, and Fizdale didnt click with him, the team didnt play hard enough. I might understand going to mgmt, and expressing his concerns, I would get that. Dont get the backseat driving by KP and his brother.

KP's career might be cut short due to his frame, wants to be in the best position he can. Complaining while you are doing zero on the court to affect the outcome, should have kept KP from making trouble before he got back.

What I believe worried KP with the Rose/Noah deals was due to the sudden change in direction from the course Phil had set just a season earlier. Between that and the passive aggressive tweets by Phil, they were concerned that Phil (as an exec) was in over his head. He was.

Wasnt praising KP for skipping the exit meeting, but I understood what motivated him. His recent spat with mgmt, and his gradual lack of interest in team functions, tells me that KP and brother already had one foot out the door. I doubt anything would have changed that.

I commend Perry/Mills for pulling a move out of "Hunt for Red October"(spoilers) When Ramius ordered the sub to speed up against the incoming torpedo. It smashed into it before the torpedo could arm and explode.

They traded KP before he and brother could hold the team hostage, and get traded to the teams he demanded to be traded to.

How was trading for rose a change in direction, we had no PG (especially one that took it to the hole) and you still have a star veteran in melo(who they just resigned) who wanted to win (and requested in his EXIT meeting that a PG should be our top priority)..Frank and rose didn't even play together .

All phil said was that he wouldn't trade draft picks to get better..

Gradual rebuild with one of the most durable centers in the league, who fit well with the lotto pick. Instead signing a big man to a ridiculous deal, who couldnt stay on the court. Dont know how accurate it was, but reports were that Phil was leaning towards giving Rose the max before he was out for the season.

We could go around in circles about this, but there is no way you can convince me that Rose amd Noah were here for the gradual rebuild, that Phil was talking about his first season.

You preach unselfish basketball, yet you bring in a player who was only interested in padding his stats? Who couldnt stay on the court? Thats not long term thinking, thats a quick fix.

BigDaddyG
Posts: 26890
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 1/22/2010
Member: #3049

2/11/2019  2:27 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Nalod wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Welpee wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:Dont Think anyone can or has questioned his professionalism, willingness to work hard or the ability to be a good role player as his floor. Problem is that the Knicks used a lotto pick for one.

Bingo! If the goal was to pick up a glue guy we could've traded down and picked up two or three of them.

Would be disingenuous to proclaim they drafted Frank with the goal of him being a glue guy. More likely these things packaged with his oversized frame had them envisioning something greater. Frank was projected as a lottery pick all season when he was coming out and was drafted around his projected range. The only thing that even made it controversial is the teams that passed on DSjr before the Knicks picked.

Would also be hard to really know if he was that type of glue player at 18 yrs old at the time of the draft. Only through his reactions though these trials and tribulations would that start to become established. Lotto pick JJ Reddick is considered a glue guy for reference.

Phil drafted Frank to run the Triangle. He saw him as the prototypical Triangle player. Thats why he was picked in the first round. Its why Fisher was hired as a coach, while he was still a player, with no coaching experience. He knew how to run the Triangle. Why I was initially concerned about Phil as an exec. He said he wanted a system implimented when he was first hired, not necessarily the Triangle. We know now, that was not true.

This is true. Now are you saying this as you believe Frank would not have been a lottery pick if not for Phil? Also Gaines pushed for the Frank pick. Phil may have advised what he was looking for and Gaines felt Frank was the best fit, that's very possible. But I am also sure there was more discussed about Frank than just the triangle.

Phil also traded for Rose who was as non triangle PG as you can be.

Yes. Thought Frank should have been picked in the second round, if he was still there. Phil likely told Gaines that he wanted him to find the best player to run his system, and thats what Gaines tried to do. Phil got Rose and Noah, flushed the rebuild, because he got playoff fever. Went for the quick fix.

Believe the worst thing Ive said about Frank is his lack of urgency to become more of a threat on offense. Nothing about his overall work ethic. His offense is at the bottom of the league. Until Frank changes that, he's going to hear it from fans.

I completely disagree with that, he never once stated the word PLAYOFFS in any of the yrs he was here.

Bringing in a couple of veterans is what you do when your developing the right way, staying competitive, incorporating a winning environment, and culture.

You think the celtics development process is killing Tatum and Brown, because they're winning..

you think rebuilding means losing 65 games and getting a high pick.

I remember Duncan winning a championship in his rookie yr surrounded by all veterans, look how he turned out..What we're doing to these young boys is horrible IMO..they can even determine a good shot from a bad one..

So, the only veterans Phil could bring in, was a me first starting PG, who missed more games over the previous 4 years, than any other player. The other being relegated to the bench before the trade, because of lack of effectiveness, repeated injuries, and issues with the coach. And lets top it off with a 70 million dollar contract!

KP and Lopez were one of the best frontline tandems in the league. Lopez's contract was a relative bargain. Nothing wrong with adding vets, just not those vets. Noah and Rose werent brought in to be mentors. If they were, that was a colossal mistake.

They were brought in to be starters, so Phil had something to tweet about in the offseason.

What kind of an impact did Jack have on frank, because he regress as the yr went on. I still think franks first month in the league was his best stretch.

KP never once complained about Rose or Melo taking all the shots, not to mention the triangle Distractions..So you didn't think NOAH (a former DOY) would be a good Vet for KP to learn from, one of the best passing bigmen in the league at one point

Jack was a good no drama mentor, who did a respectable job running the point. Former head coaches have said that Jack would make a great head coach. Thats a mentor. Remember an interview he did, talked about Frank developing a more aggressive mindset. Rose taught Frank to openly say that job one was a max deal, and went on to play that way. With an AWOL thrown in. Mentor?

Rose was ranked below G leaguers when it came to getting others involved. Wish I could find that Post article.

All the mentoring in the world wont help Frank if he doesnt play with more aggression. Thats what Jack was trying to say.

As for Noah, I was a fan since his Florida days, talked about trading for him, before his DPOY. The Noah at the time of the trade was a different player. I remember KP saying that Noah gave him some good tips, but thats a long way from being a mentor. Its about walking it like you talk it. Neither Rose, or Noah did.

If Rose and Noah hadnt been brought to NY, and the resulting drama did not ensue, Im guessing KP and his brother would have less of a reason to skip the exit meeting.

What's lost on me is all the issues personal KP would have had were corrected or extracted.
Did Fiz statement about him not running hard really cause him to put Fiz on his "hate" list.
KP was quick to "Gotcha" the moment showing him running on the track. At the time I recall KP might have offended if any notion of him not playing this year. All that was said was if waiting is best for him, we wait.
LIke I said, I don't understand or pretend to be an insider knowing what made KP tick.
Logic dictates that KP if habitually injured would not want the weight of this market on his shoulders. That or the franchise potentially could draft or sign a player that dims his star. If so, then the "winning" thing is crap. I just can't figure what went wrong given all the changes that were made.

If KP had been playing this year, and Fizdale didnt click with him, the team didnt play hard enough. I might understand going to mgmt, and expressing his concerns, I would get that. Dont get the backseat driving by KP and his brother.

KP's career might be cut short due to his frame, wants to be in the best position he can. Complaining while you are doing zero on the court to affect the outcome, should have kept KP from making trouble before he got back.

What I believe worried KP with the Rose/Noah deals was due to the sudden change in direction from the course Phil had set just a season earlier. Between that and the passive aggressive tweets by Phil, they were concerned that Phil (as an exec) was in over his head. He was.

Wasnt praising KP for skipping the exit meeting, but I understood what motivated him. His recent spat with mgmt, and his gradual lack of interest in team functions, tells me that KP and brother already had one foot out the door. I doubt anything would have changed that.

I commend Perry/Mills for pulling a move out of "Hunt for Red October"(spoilers) When Ramius ordered the sub to speed up against the incoming torpedo. It smashed into it before the torpedo could arm and explode.

They traded KP before he and brother could hold the team hostage, and get traded to the teams he demanded to be traded to.

How was trading for rose a change in direction, we had no PG (especially one that took it to the hole) and you still have a star veteran in melo(who they just resigned) who wanted to win (and requested in his EXIT meeting that a PG should be our top priority)..Frank and rose didn't even play together .

All phil said was that he wouldn't trade draft picks to get better..

Gradual rebuild with one of the most durable centers in the league, who fit well with the lotto pick. Instead signing a big man to a ridiculous deal, who couldnt stay on the court. Dont know how accurate it was, but reports were that Phil was leaning towards giving Rose the max before he was out for the season.

We could go around in circles about this, but there is no way you can convince me that Rose amd Noah were here for the gradual rebuild, that Phil was talking about his first season.

You preach unselfish basketball, yet you bring in a player who was only interested in padding his stats? Who couldnt stay on the court? Thats not long term thinking, thats a quick fix.


I remember reports of Phil's possibly re-signing Rose, but not for the max lol I agree that Phil made those wins to try win while Melo was still in his prime while rebuilding in the fly. Definitely a quick fix.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Kemet
Posts: 21007
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2/11/2019  2:39 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/11/2019  2:42 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Nalod wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Welpee wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:Dont Think anyone can or has questioned his professionalism, willingness to work hard or the ability to be a good role player as his floor. Problem is that the Knicks used a lotto pick for one.

Bingo! If the goal was to pick up a glue guy we could've traded down and picked up two or three of them.

Would be disingenuous to proclaim they drafted Frank with the goal of him being a glue guy. More likely these things packaged with his oversized frame had them envisioning something greater. Frank was projected as a lottery pick all season when he was coming out and was drafted around his projected range. The only thing that even made it controversial is the teams that passed on DSjr before the Knicks picked.

Would also be hard to really know if he was that type of glue player at 18 yrs old at the time of the draft. Only through his reactions though these trials and tribulations would that start to become established. Lotto pick JJ Reddick is considered a glue guy for reference.

Phil drafted Frank to run the Triangle. He saw him as the prototypical Triangle player. Thats why he was picked in the first round. Its why Fisher was hired as a coach, while he was still a player, with no coaching experience. He knew how to run the Triangle. Why I was initially concerned about Phil as an exec. He said he wanted a system implimented when he was first hired, not necessarily the Triangle. We know now, that was not true.

This is true. Now are you saying this as you believe Frank would not have been a lottery pick if not for Phil? Also Gaines pushed for the Frank pick. Phil may have advised what he was looking for and Gaines felt Frank was the best fit, that's very possible. But I am also sure there was more discussed about Frank than just the triangle.

Phil also traded for Rose who was as non triangle PG as you can be.

Yes. Thought Frank should have been picked in the second round, if he was still there. Phil likely told Gaines that he wanted him to find the best player to run his system, and thats what Gaines tried to do. Phil got Rose and Noah, flushed the rebuild, because he got playoff fever. Went for the quick fix.

Believe the worst thing Ive said about Frank is his lack of urgency to become more of a threat on offense. Nothing about his overall work ethic. His offense is at the bottom of the league. Until Frank changes that, he's going to hear it from fans.

I completely disagree with that, he never once stated the word PLAYOFFS in any of the yrs he was here.

Bringing in a couple of veterans is what you do when your developing the right way, staying competitive, incorporating a winning environment, and culture.

You think the celtics development process is killing Tatum and Brown, because they're winning..

you think rebuilding means losing 65 games and getting a high pick.

I remember Duncan winning a championship in his rookie yr surrounded by all veterans, look how he turned out..What we're doing to these young boys is horrible IMO..they can even determine a good shot from a bad one..

So, the only veterans Phil could bring in, was a me first starting PG, who missed more games over the previous 4 years, than any other player. The other being relegated to the bench before the trade, because of lack of effectiveness, repeated injuries, and issues with the coach. And lets top it off with a 70 million dollar contract!

KP and Lopez were one of the best frontline tandems in the league. Lopez's contract was a relative bargain. Nothing wrong with adding vets, just not those vets. Noah and Rose werent brought in to be mentors. If they were, that was a colossal mistake.

They were brought in to be starters, so Phil had something to tweet about in the offseason.

What kind of an impact did Jack have on frank, because he regress as the yr went on. I still think franks first month in the league was his best stretch.

KP never once complained about Rose or Melo taking all the shots, not to mention the triangle Distractions..So you didn't think NOAH (a former DOY) would be a good Vet for KP to learn from, one of the best passing bigmen in the league at one point

Jack was a good no drama mentor, who did a respectable job running the point. Former head coaches have said that Jack would make a great head coach. Thats a mentor. Remember an interview he did, talked about Frank developing a more aggressive mindset. Rose taught Frank to openly say that job one was a max deal, and went on to play that way. With an AWOL thrown in. Mentor?

Rose was ranked below G leaguers when it came to getting others involved. Wish I could find that Post article.

All the mentoring in the world wont help Frank if he doesnt play with more aggression. Thats what Jack was trying to say.

As for Noah, I was a fan since his Florida days, talked about trading for him, before his DPOY. The Noah at the time of the trade was a different player. I remember KP saying that Noah gave him some good tips, but thats a long way from being a mentor. Its about walking it like you talk it. Neither Rose, or Noah did.

If Rose and Noah hadnt been brought to NY, and the resulting drama did not ensue, Im guessing KP and his brother would have less of a reason to skip the exit meeting.

What's lost on me is all the issues personal KP would have had were corrected or extracted.
Did Fiz statement about him not running hard really cause him to put Fiz on his "hate" list.
KP was quick to "Gotcha" the moment showing him running on the track. At the time I recall KP might have offended if any notion of him not playing this year. All that was said was if waiting is best for him, we wait.
LIke I said, I don't understand or pretend to be an insider knowing what made KP tick.
Logic dictates that KP if habitually injured would not want the weight of this market on his shoulders. That or the franchise potentially could draft or sign a player that dims his star. If so, then the "winning" thing is crap. I just can't figure what went wrong given all the changes that were made.

If KP had been playing this year, and Fizdale didnt click with him, the team didnt play hard enough. I might understand going to mgmt, and expressing his concerns, I would get that. Dont get the backseat driving by KP and his brother.

KP's career might be cut short due to his frame, wants to be in the best position he can. Complaining while you are doing zero on the court to affect the outcome, should have kept KP from making trouble before he got back.

What I believe worried KP with the Rose/Noah deals was due to the sudden change in direction from the course Phil had set just a season earlier. Between that and the passive aggressive tweets by Phil, they were concerned that Phil (as an exec) was in over his head. He was.

Wasnt praising KP for skipping the exit meeting, but I understood what motivated him. His recent spat with mgmt, and his gradual lack of interest in team functions, tells me that KP and brother already had one foot out the door. I doubt anything would have changed that.

I commend Perry/Mills for pulling a move out of "Hunt for Red October"(spoilers) When Ramius ordered the sub to speed up against the incoming torpedo. It smashed into it before the torpedo could arm and explode.

They traded KP before he and brother could hold the team hostage, and get traded to the teams he demanded to be traded to.

How was trading for rose a change in direction, we had no PG (especially one that took it to the hole) and you still have a star veteran in melo(who they just resigned) who wanted to win (and requested in his EXIT meeting that a PG should be our top priority)..Frank and rose didn't even play together .

All phil said was that he wouldn't trade draft picks to get better..

Gradual rebuild with one of the most durable centers in the league, who fit well with the lotto pick. Instead signing a big man to a ridiculous deal, who couldnt stay on the court. Dont know how accurate it was, but reports were that Phil was leaning towards giving Rose the max before he was out for the season.

We could go around in circles about this, but there is no way you can convince me that Rose amd Noah were here for the gradual rebuild, that Phil was talking about his first season.

You preach unselfish basketball, yet you bring in a player who was only interested in padding his stats? Who couldnt stay on the court? Thats not long term thinking, thats a quick fix.


Phil Jackson selected Frank & Dotson in the draft to fit into a lineup of 3 offensive-players (a resigned) combo-guard D.Rose, Melo & KP at forwards, and Noah at center (Noah were a good defensive captain mentor in Chicago under coach Thibs system).
Franks athletic defensive ability and long depth at age 18 made him a valuable lottery pick, especially for all the Western Conference Lottery Teams who has go against the TOP tandem guards in the league: Splash-Brothers, Harden & CP3, Westbrook & Olidipo, Liliard & McCollum, and Teague & Butler.

Uptown
Posts: 27790
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2/11/2019  2:47 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Welpee wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:Dont Think anyone can or has questioned his professionalism, willingness to work hard or the ability to be a good role player as his floor. Problem is that the Knicks used a lotto pick for one.

Bingo! If the goal was to pick up a glue guy we could've traded down and picked up two or three of them.

Would be disingenuous to proclaim they drafted Frank with the goal of him being a glue guy. More likely these things packaged with his oversized frame had them envisioning something greater. Frank was projected as a lottery pick all season when he was coming out and was drafted around his projected range. The only thing that even made it controversial is the teams that passed on DSjr before the Knicks picked.

Would also be hard to really know if he was that type of glue player at 18 yrs old at the time of the draft. Only through his reactions though these trials and tribulations would that start to become established. Lotto pick JJ Reddick is considered a glue guy for reference.

Phil drafted Frank to run the Triangle. He saw him as the prototypical Triangle player. Thats why he was picked in the first round. Its why Fisher was hired as a coach, while he was still a player, with no coaching experience. He knew how to run the Triangle. Why I was initially concerned about Phil as an exec. He said he wanted a system implimented when he was first hired, not necessarily the Triangle. We know now, that was not true.

This is true. Now are you saying this as you believe Frank would not have been a lottery pick if not for Phil? Also Gaines pushed for the Frank pick. Phil may have advised what he was looking for and Gaines felt Frank was the best fit, that's very possible. But I am also sure there was more discussed about Frank than just the triangle.

Phil also traded for Rose who was as non triangle PG as you can be.

Yes. Thought Frank should have been picked in the second round, if he was still there. Phil likely told Gaines that he wanted him to find the best player to run his system, and thats what Gaines tried to do. Phil got Rose and Noah, flushed the rebuild, because he got playoff fever. Went for the quick fix.

Believe the worst thing Ive said about Frank is his lack of urgency to become more of a threat on offense. Nothing about his overall work ethic. His offense is at the bottom of the league. Until Frank changes that, he's going to hear it from fans.

I completely disagree with that, he never once stated the word PLAYOFFS in any of the yrs he was here.

Bringing in a couple of veterans is what you do when your developing the right way, staying competitive, incorporating a winning environment, and culture.

You think the celtics development process is killing Tatum and Brown, because they're winning..

you think rebuilding means losing 65 games and getting a high pick.

I remember Duncan winning a championship in his rookie yr surrounded by all veterans, look how he turned out..What we're doing to these young boys is horrible IMO..they can even determine a good shot from a bad one..

You don't add Rose, Noah, and Lee to Melo and not try to make the playoffs!!!

Frank is the definition of a glue guy

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