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Is FIZ the answer
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Uptown
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2/11/2019  2:41 PM
stanleybostitch wrote:
Uptown wrote:
Chandler wrote:
Uptown wrote:
stanleybostitch wrote:I posted about this on the Kanter thread...Fiz's inability to get folks bought into a team vision is concerning. Now it's not apples to apples, but I'm also an Islanders fan, and the transformation that team has gone through - largely the same defense-poor team as last year, _minus_ their best player - is profound. They're in first place. And it's all because Barry Trotz implemented his system, and guys struggled at first getting used to it - it took sacrifice. Matthew Barzal had to change his free-wheeling game and he has (to his great credit), wherein his personal stats may have taken a bit of a hit, but the team play is worlds better.
I see none of this sacrifice from the Knicks. Hell I see no system at all that you would sacrifice to in the first place. And I have to think that if Fiz were a better coach, he would have gotten more out of Kanter, would have fostered development in our youths instead of seeing regression. I don't know. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt here, and am hoping he shows us something next year, but if we see players not buying in or sacrificing and more regression from our youth this time next year, then it's time to make a change.

Do you guys watch other NBA games besides the Knicks?! I ask because most of the NBA runs the same stuff. I caught most of the OKC/Houston game last night and the 4t quarter was a steady diet of a spread offense ( 4 out and 1 in) and Harden going one on one. On the other side, OKS ran a spread offense with Paul George going one on one or Westbrook running a high pick n roll where he would attack the basket, hit the roller and kick to the corner for a 3. Most teams run a read-n-react or high pick and roll offense! They will throw in a Horns set every now and then but its mostly the same. Most of the time when we see intricate sets its off of a time out or an out of bounds play.

I dont watch Hockey, but as we know, just one superstar player can change the dynamic of an NBA teams offense and defense. Two and you can compete for a championship. Replace Knox with Durant, and Hardaway with Kyrie and we would see a major difference. It's a players league...

Now, with that said, I will agree that Fiz could make some subtle changes to get Knox running off pin-down screens so he can catch and shoot, or off Flex-screens where he can catch the ball closer to the basket where he could use his height and get him away from hanging out on the perimeter. Keep in mind, Fiz is essentially a 2nd year head coach. He is growing and learning with the team. Pretty sure he will get better and is hopefully ready when we are ready to turn the corner.

Under this logic, coaches shouldn't matter as long as they run the same plays?

Steve Kerr added 16 games to the Warriors his first season
Budenholzer is on track to add 17 games to Bucks this year, his first season with team


neither team had any significant roster changes


So while you may be right as to how important top flight talent is, I strongly disagree about coaches. That just seems like a bunch of baloney

Pop used to beat teams with his second unit

I been coaching for 10 years on the high school level, obviously it's not the NBA, but I know a thing or two about coaching. You totally ignored my last paragraph where I pointed out subtle changes that Fiz can and should make but he is not.

One size does not fit all as you have to adapt to the roster that you have. However, Fiz seems to be a fan of a Read N React styled Offense that emphasizes spacing the floor and he is trying to install his style of play and his culture now!! It looks messy because he doesn't have the talent, the Shooting, nor the experience to run that type of offense. There are tons of reads in the Read N React; there's back door cuts, dribble hand offs, pick n rolls, drive n kicks, pass and then screen away all available but it takes months, years to develop. Obviously, Fiz has a long leash and he there is not pressure to win now, so why not put in your style of play with the Young Core thats going to be here for the long haul and allow them to develop that chemistry now. I'm sure our offense looks just as messy as Brett Browns offense looked several years ago when he only won 10 games.

The Reason why the Bucks look so much better now is because Coach Bud has the Bucks playing the Space and Pace (Read N React) offense that most of the elite teams are playing now. Jason Kidd had the floor too cluttered and the spacing was bad which didn't allow Greek Freak to drive and kick. Coach Bud has put an emphasis on the 3 ball, in fact they might be taking the most 3's in the league. This style is similar to what Fiz is trying to put in with us but we dont have the shooters nor the experience. The Bucks roster has been in tact for several years so the chemistry is already there.

As far as the Warriors are concerned, Mark Jackson was more of a defensive coach and all the defensive principles were already in tact when Kerr arrived. Kerr put an emphasis on spacing the floor and playing a more modernized style of play.

In the end, J Kidd and Mark Jacksin did not have those teams playing a modern styled offense....Fiz is trying to get the Knicks to play modern styled ball, but he doesn't have the pieces or experience to pull it off....Its going to take some time....

Don't want to throw a grenade here, but this is what Phil was trying to do - instill a system where spacing allowed many different tactics (you mention a few - back door cuts, dribble hand offs, pick n rolls, drive n kicks, pass and then screen, etc.) to succeed. When I watch the Knicks I don't see consistent spacing - you can almost see the guys thinking about where they're supposed to be instead of reacting to the situation and executing, and this is clearly an experience issue, so am confident this'll get better with time. So maybe it's impatience with the youths on my part, but then the question is - how long do we give Fiz to show progress? I think by this time next year we have to see the team executing flawlessly, whether we've signed impact FA's or not.

Good post! Guys are thinking instead of reacting because they don't have the experience or chemistry to make the right reads. Making the right reads takes months, years of repetition which is one of the reasons why the Warriors look so good, besides the fact that they have 3 of the top 15 players in the league, but their core has been playing together for years.

How long do we give Fiz? First, give him a legit roster that can compete. Flawlessly?! With a roster full of 21 and 22 years olds? If we strike out on Durant and Kyrie and we come back with the same core, they will still struggle with the concepts because they are young. Smith had one year of college, Frank will be 22, Knox is 2 years removed from HS!?! My best player is a HS senior, been here 3 years and still struggles with some of our concepts....Flawlessly is an unrealistic expectation...They will be improved, for sure.

AUTOADVERT
knicks1248
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2/11/2019  3:10 PM
Is anyone showing progress at all..

Fiz keeps indicating he is coaching is ass off to win games

Knicks coach David Fizdale is also disappointed by the perception he’s coaching to lose games to ensure the best odds to win the lottery, with the top prize being a Duke Mack Truck named Zion Williamson.

Fizdale said he would never “cheat the game” like that.

If your telling me your coaching your ass off, and you have won 1 game in almost 3 months..maybe his points are not getting through. He also said he had to dumb down the system and make it more basic.

we won 1 games since he said that...

I was watching THJ play last night, an he looked so much better in dallas, and played much more under control..

ES
Uptown
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2/11/2019  3:12 PM
knicks1248 wrote:Is anyone showing progress at all..

Fiz keeps indicating he is coaching is ass off to win games

Knicks coach David Fizdale is also disappointed by the perception he’s coaching to lose games to ensure the best odds to win the lottery, with the top prize being a Duke Mack Truck named Zion Williamson.

Fizdale said he would never “cheat the game” like that.

If your telling me your coaching your ass off, and you have won 1 game in almost 3 months..maybe his points are not getting through. He also said he had to dumb down the system and make it more basic.

we won 1 games since he said that...

I was watching THJ play last night, an he looked so much better in dallas, and played much more under control..

I will ask you again...In your opinion, it Brett Brown and Kenny Atkinson good coaches?

Kemet
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2/11/2019  3:30 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/11/2019  3:37 PM
Uptown wrote:
stanleybostitch wrote:
Uptown wrote:
Chandler wrote:
Uptown wrote:
stanleybostitch wrote:I posted about this on the Kanter thread...Fiz's inability to get folks bought into a team vision is concerning. Now it's not apples to apples, but I'm also an Islanders fan, and the transformation that team has gone through - largely the same defense-poor team as last year, _minus_ their best player - is profound. They're in first place. And it's all because Barry Trotz implemented his system, and guys struggled at first getting used to it - it took sacrifice. Matthew Barzal had to change his free-wheeling game and he has (to his great credit), wherein his personal stats may have taken a bit of a hit, but the team play is worlds better.
I see none of this sacrifice from the Knicks. Hell I see no system at all that you would sacrifice to in the first place. And I have to think that if Fiz were a better coach, he would have gotten more out of Kanter, would have fostered development in our youths instead of seeing regression. I don't know. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt here, and am hoping he shows us something next year, but if we see players not buying in or sacrificing and more regression from our youth this time next year, then it's time to make a change.

Do you guys watch other NBA games besides the Knicks?! I ask because most of the NBA runs the same stuff. I caught most of the OKC/Houston game last night and the 4t quarter was a steady diet of a spread offense ( 4 out and 1 in) and Harden going one on one. On the other side, OKS ran a spread offense with Paul George going one on one or Westbrook running a high pick n roll where he would attack the basket, hit the roller and kick to the corner for a 3. Most teams run a read-n-react or high pick and roll offense! They will throw in a Horns set every now and then but its mostly the same. Most of the time when we see intricate sets its off of a time out or an out of bounds play.

I dont watch Hockey, but as we know, just one superstar player can change the dynamic of an NBA teams offense and defense. Two and you can compete for a championship. Replace Knox with Durant, and Hardaway with Kyrie and we would see a major difference. It's a players league...

Now, with that said, I will agree that Fiz could make some subtle changes to get Knox running off pin-down screens so he can catch and shoot, or off Flex-screens where he can catch the ball closer to the basket where he could use his height and get him away from hanging out on the perimeter. Keep in mind, Fiz is essentially a 2nd year head coach. He is growing and learning with the team. Pretty sure he will get better and is hopefully ready when we are ready to turn the corner.

Under this logic, coaches shouldn't matter as long as they run the same plays?

Steve Kerr added 16 games to the Warriors his first season
Budenholzer is on track to add 17 games to Bucks this year, his first season with team


neither team had any significant roster changes


So while you may be right as to how important top flight talent is, I strongly disagree about coaches. That just seems like a bunch of baloney

Pop used to beat teams with his second unit

I been coaching for 10 years on the high school level, obviously it's not the NBA, but I know a thing or two about coaching. You totally ignored my last paragraph where I pointed out subtle changes that Fiz can and should make but he is not.

One size does not fit all as you have to adapt to the roster that you have. However, Fiz seems to be a fan of a Read N React styled Offense that emphasizes spacing the floor and he is trying to install his style of play and his culture now!! It looks messy because he doesn't have the talent, the Shooting, nor the experience to run that type of offense. There are tons of reads in the Read N React; there's back door cuts, dribble hand offs, pick n rolls, drive n kicks, pass and then screen away all available but it takes months, years to develop. Obviously, Fiz has a long leash and he there is not pressure to win now, so why not put in your style of play with the Young Core thats going to be here for the long haul and allow them to develop that chemistry now. I'm sure our offense looks just as messy as Brett Browns offense looked several years ago when he only won 10 games.

The Reason why the Bucks look so much better now is because Coach Bud has the Bucks playing the Space and Pace (Read N React) offense that most of the elite teams are playing now. Jason Kidd had the floor too cluttered and the spacing was bad which didn't allow Greek Freak to drive and kick. Coach Bud has put an emphasis on the 3 ball, in fact they might be taking the most 3's in the league. This style is similar to what Fiz is trying to put in with us but we dont have the shooters nor the experience. The Bucks roster has been in tact for several years so the chemistry is already there.

As far as the Warriors are concerned, Mark Jackson was more of a defensive coach and all the defensive principles were already in tact when Kerr arrived. Kerr put an emphasis on spacing the floor and playing a more modernized style of play.

In the end, J Kidd and Mark Jacksin did not have those teams playing a modern styled offense....Fiz is trying to get the Knicks to play modern styled ball, but he doesn't have the pieces or experience to pull it off....Its going to take some time....

Don't want to throw a grenade here, but this is what Phil was trying to do - instill a system where spacing allowed many different tactics (you mention a few - back door cuts, dribble hand offs, pick n rolls, drive n kicks, pass and then screen, etc.) to succeed. When I watch the Knicks I don't see consistent spacing - you can almost see the guys thinking about where they're supposed to be instead of reacting to the situation and executing, and this is clearly an experience issue, so am confident this'll get better with time. So maybe it's impatience with the youths on my part, but then the question is - how long do we give Fiz to show progress? I think by this time next year we have to see the team executing flawlessly, whether we've signed impact FA's or not.

Good post! Guys are thinking instead of reacting because they don't have the experience or chemistry to make the right reads. Making the right reads takes months, years of repetition which is one of the reasons why the Warriors look so good, besides the fact that they have 3 of the top 15 players in the league, but their core has been playing together for years.

How long do we give Fiz? First, give him a legit roster that can compete. Flawlessly?! With a roster full of 21 and 22 years olds? If we strike out on Durant and Kyrie and we come back with the same core, they will still struggle with the concepts because they are young. Smith had one year of college, Frank will be 22, Knox is 2 years removed from HS!?! My best player is a HS senior, been here 3 years and still struggles with some of our concepts....Flawlessly is an unrealistic expectation...They will be improved, for sure.


The Knicks 2018-19 roster were purposely put together early in the 2018 offseason to TANK the season, plus Fizdale getting FIRED over player/coach controversy fit well into the TANK agenda. The Knicks (Dolan) media could sell Fizdale by using the same advertisement the Memphis Grizz use to sell their fans for hiring Fizdale .. Fizdale had a seat on the Miami Heat coaching staff to watch the "BIG-3 Lebron James, D.Wade, Bosh, and Ray Allen WIN championships.

It look to me like Fizdale jumped off the Miami Heat Bandwagon when Lebron and D.Wade left .. so we are clueless of Fizdale's coaching abilities other than his stint with the Grizz and the Knicks 10-44 record!

Mark Jackson coaching turned the GSW Splash-Brothers into complimentary players having two other complimentary players already on the roster.

knicks1248
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2/11/2019  3:35 PM
Uptown wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Is anyone showing progress at all..

Fiz keeps indicating he is coaching is ass off to win games

Knicks coach David Fizdale is also disappointed by the perception he’s coaching to lose games to ensure the best odds to win the lottery, with the top prize being a Duke Mack Truck named Zion Williamson.

Fizdale said he would never “cheat the game” like that.

If your telling me your coaching your ass off, and you have won 1 game in almost 3 months..maybe his points are not getting through. He also said he had to dumb down the system and make it more basic.

we won 1 games since he said that...

I was watching THJ play last night, an he looked so much better in dallas, and played much more under control..

I will ask you again...In your opinion, it Brett Brown and Kenny Atkinson good coaches?


Kenny Atkison is a decent coach with a very good staff, brown is as average as they come.

Kenny had a system that he has been using since day one regardless of the roster, and then management went and acquired players to fit that system,

just like MDA never dumb down his system because he didnt have NASH, no he turned Lin, and duhon into nash


Kenny uses MDA system all day every day, since he became a head coach, he never wavered from it despite the lack of 3 point shooters, he made everybody on that roster take and make more 3's then they ever had including LOPEZ..

ES
MS
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2/11/2019  3:43 PM
Kenny happens to be one of the best player development people in basketball. If your system is designed to maximize a players strengths I would say Kenny is showing himself to be the coach of the year.

Levertt, Spencer, DLO, Hollis Jefferson, Allen, Harris all seem to be getting better.

Fizdale, you can't say that anyone has shown tremendous progress. Robinson of late is starting to look good, but Frank hasn't shown you much of anything, Know is in and out and steps out of bounds or travels 2-3 times a game on basic moves, he has jerked everyone in and out of the rotation. They do need to put a few wins on the boards just to improve the moral of the team. The Kanter thing was a big distraction, you had Lee who was a professional thankfully, but he should have been playing over Lance Thomas and would have been fine for 20 minutes a night just to see if you could have boasted his trade value and show the young guys how important it is to play the right way.

Uptown
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2/11/2019  3:44 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
Uptown wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Is anyone showing progress at all..

Fiz keeps indicating he is coaching is ass off to win games

Knicks coach David Fizdale is also disappointed by the perception he’s coaching to lose games to ensure the best odds to win the lottery, with the top prize being a Duke Mack Truck named Zion Williamson.

Fizdale said he would never “cheat the game” like that.

If your telling me your coaching your ass off, and you have won 1 game in almost 3 months..maybe his points are not getting through. He also said he had to dumb down the system and make it more basic.

we won 1 games since he said that...

I was watching THJ play last night, an he looked so much better in dallas, and played much more under control..

I will ask you again...In your opinion, it Brett Brown and Kenny Atkinson good coaches?


Kenny Atkison is a decent coach with a very good staff, brown is as average as they come.

Kenny had a system that he has been using since day one regardless of the roster, and then management went and acquired players to fit that system,

just like MDA never dumb down his system because he didnt have NASH, no he turned Lin, and duhon into nash


Kenny uses MDA system all day every day, since he became a head coach, he never wavered from it despite the lack of 3 point shooters, he made everybody on that roster take and make more 3's then they ever had including LOPEZ..

Most of the NBA is using MDA's space and Pace philosophy....Bud, Kerr, Atkinson, and even Pop has adapted to his style to incorporate the Space and Pace philosophy. Fiz is using a similar philosophy, but just like Atkinson when he only won 20 games, didn't have the talent. Now its up to management to go and get Fiz the players. That's why it's difficult to judge Fiz with this young, inexperienced, roster that is possibly the least talented roster in the NBA.

The mediocre Brett Brown won 10 games several years ago with a roster just as bad as out current Knicks Roster. Now, Mediocre Brett has a roster talented enough to win the East and compete for a championship. Talent makes a difference.

Uptown
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2/11/2019  3:48 PM
MS wrote:Kenny happens to be one of the best player development people in basketball. If your system is designed to maximize a players strengths I would say Kenny is showing himself to be the coach of the year.

Levertt, Spencer, DLO, Hollis Jefferson, Allen, Harris all seem to be getting better.

Fizdale, you can't say that anyone has shown tremendous progress. Robinson of late is starting to look good, but Frank hasn't shown you much of anything, Know is in and out and steps out of bounds or travels 2-3 times a game on basic moves, he has jerked everyone in and out of the rotation. They do need to put a few wins on the boards just to improve the moral of the team. The Kanter thing was a big distraction, you had Lee who was a professional thankfully, but he should have been playing over Lance Thomas and would have been fine for 20 minutes a night just to see if you could have boasted his trade value and show the young guys how important it is to play the right way.

Atkinson is now in his 3rd year, and most of the players you named have been with him all 3 yrs and in some cases 2. Fiz hasn't even had a full season yet and you want immediate results? With that said, regardless of how you feel about Mudiay, he is having his best season in the league as is Vonleh...

Lets give Fiz some time...BTW, how has the Griz looked since Fiz left that squad?

Nalod
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2/11/2019  3:54 PM
Uptown wrote:
MS wrote:Kenny happens to be one of the best player development people in basketball. If your system is designed to maximize a players strengths I would say Kenny is showing himself to be the coach of the year.

Levertt, Spencer, DLO, Hollis Jefferson, Allen, Harris all seem to be getting better.

Fizdale, you can't say that anyone has shown tremendous progress. Robinson of late is starting to look good, but Frank hasn't shown you much of anything, Know is in and out and steps out of bounds or travels 2-3 times a game on basic moves, he has jerked everyone in and out of the rotation. They do need to put a few wins on the boards just to improve the moral of the team. The Kanter thing was a big distraction, you had Lee who was a professional thankfully, but he should have been playing over Lance Thomas and would have been fine for 20 minutes a night just to see if you could have boasted his trade value and show the young guys how important it is to play the right way.

Atkinson is now in his 3rd year, and most of the players you named have been with him all 3 yrs and in some cases 2. Fiz hasn't even had a full season yet and you want immediate results? With that said, regardless of how you feel about Mudiay, he is having his best season in the league as is Vonleh...

Lets give Fiz some time...BTW, how has the Griz looked since Fiz left that squad?

facts.....They matter.

You don't show a fool a job half done!
knicks1248
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2/11/2019  4:25 PM
Uptown wrote:
MS wrote:Kenny happens to be one of the best player development people in basketball. If your system is designed to maximize a players strengths I would say Kenny is showing himself to be the coach of the year.

Levertt, Spencer, DLO, Hollis Jefferson, Allen, Harris all seem to be getting better.

Fizdale, you can't say that anyone has shown tremendous progress. Robinson of late is starting to look good, but Frank hasn't shown you much of anything, Know is in and out and steps out of bounds or travels 2-3 times a game on basic moves, he has jerked everyone in and out of the rotation. They do need to put a few wins on the boards just to improve the moral of the team. The Kanter thing was a big distraction, you had Lee who was a professional thankfully, but he should have been playing over Lance Thomas and would have been fine for 20 minutes a night just to see if you could have boasted his trade value and show the young guys how important it is to play the right way.

Atkinson is now in his 3rd year, and most of the players you named have been with him all 3 yrs and in some cases 2. Fiz hasn't even had a full season yet and you want immediate results? With that said, regardless of how you feel about Mudiay, he is having his best season in the league as is Vonleh...

Lets give Fiz some time...BTW, how has the Griz looked since Fiz left that squad?

Let's give Phil sometime, let's give fisher sometime, let's give JH sometime..

You give any coach a talented roster and they can win, that's like super obvious.

But good coaches turn average players into above average, and above average into super stars(like mda did with nash and harden).

jerking guys like frank around, one minute he's a pg, who doesn't play fast enough, then he's a shooting guard who doesn't shoot enough, then he's a SF, who isn't strong enough..thats whats killing his development.

this isn't all on fiz either, you bring in guys for one yr then sit them because there not signed through next season

ES
Chandler
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2/11/2019  7:08 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/11/2019  7:16 PM
MS wrote:Kenny happens to be one of the best player development people in basketball. If your system is designed to maximize a players strengths I would say Kenny is showing himself to be the coach of the year.

Levertt, Spencer, DLO, Hollis Jefferson, Allen, Harris all seem to be getting better.

Fizdale, you can't say that anyone has shown tremendous progress. Robinson of late is starting to look good, but Frank hasn't shown you much of anything, Know is in and out and steps out of bounds or travels 2-3 times a game on basic moves, he has jerked everyone in and out of the rotation. They do need to put a few wins on the boards just to improve the moral of the team. The Kanter thing was a big distraction, you had Lee who was a professional thankfully, but he should have been playing over Lance Thomas and would have been fine for 20 minutes a night just to see if you could have boasted his trade value and show the young guys how important it is to play the right way.

Good points. Kenny A is getting it done

My own hope is this is part of a devious plot to lose as many games as possible. Just have the guys focus on one-on-one contested shots. Tnen when they stack the team they'll uncover their secret offense which includes good passing (and maybe even defense)

one other point: According to my calculations the Knicks were 8-26 after KP went down -- roughly 30%. We stink more now but still... it's not like we were anything special before

Martin: Hezonja will be in the NBA next year. Martin was right; I was wrong. :-(
Nalod
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2/12/2019  10:08 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
Uptown wrote:
MS wrote:Kenny happens to be one of the best player development people in basketball. If your system is designed to maximize a players strengths I would say Kenny is showing himself to be the coach of the year.

Levertt, Spencer, DLO, Hollis Jefferson, Allen, Harris all seem to be getting better.

Fizdale, you can't say that anyone has shown tremendous progress. Robinson of late is starting to look good, but Frank hasn't shown you much of anything, Know is in and out and steps out of bounds or travels 2-3 times a game on basic moves, he has jerked everyone in and out of the rotation. They do need to put a few wins on the boards just to improve the moral of the team. The Kanter thing was a big distraction, you had Lee who was a professional thankfully, but he should have been playing over Lance Thomas and would have been fine for 20 minutes a night just to see if you could have boasted his trade value and show the young guys how important it is to play the right way.

Atkinson is now in his 3rd year, and most of the players you named have been with him all 3 yrs and in some cases 2. Fiz hasn't even had a full season yet and you want immediate results? With that said, regardless of how you feel about Mudiay, he is having his best season in the league as is Vonleh...

Lets give Fiz some time...BTW, how has the Griz looked since Fiz left that squad?

Let's give Phil sometime, let's give fisher sometime, let's give JH sometime..

You give any coach a talented roster and they can win, that's like super obvious.

But good coaches turn average players into above average, and above average into super stars(like mda did with nash and harden).

jerking guys like frank around, one minute he's a pg, who doesn't play fast enough, then he's a shooting guard who doesn't shoot enough, then he's a SF, who isn't strong enough..thats whats killing his development.

this isn't all on fiz either, you bring in guys for one yr then sit them because there not signed through next season

does 10 wins tell the whole story? Even Hardaway in his dallas presser was very complimentary about Fiz and not letting the losing get to them. Fiz told you and the rest of us that wins would not be the sole measure. Knox has pushed back on fans insinuating we are tanking on purpose. This team has fight in them.

You are not factoring that a lessor coach might have lost this team by now, and what you deem as not progress might be further behind by another. Perhaps the team would be publically frustrated and humiliated instead of united and purposeful.
Your reasoning is a good coach takes it and makes it better. Maybe 5 wins would be the benchmark and Fiz has DOUBLED it!! I don't know. Knicks don't have to do this, they could have played Clee more, Lance, maybe made a few trades and been Nets like in two years. We have our own path set by goals and objectives. Not yours.

You don't show a fool a job half done!
knicks1248
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2/12/2019  10:27 AM
Nalod wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Uptown wrote:
MS wrote:Kenny happens to be one of the best player development people in basketball. If your system is designed to maximize a players strengths I would say Kenny is showing himself to be the coach of the year.

Levertt, Spencer, DLO, Hollis Jefferson, Allen, Harris all seem to be getting better.

Fizdale, you can't say that anyone has shown tremendous progress. Robinson of late is starting to look good, but Frank hasn't shown you much of anything, Know is in and out and steps out of bounds or travels 2-3 times a game on basic moves, he has jerked everyone in and out of the rotation. They do need to put a few wins on the boards just to improve the moral of the team. The Kanter thing was a big distraction, you had Lee who was a professional thankfully, but he should have been playing over Lance Thomas and would have been fine for 20 minutes a night just to see if you could have boasted his trade value and show the young guys how important it is to play the right way.

Atkinson is now in his 3rd year, and most of the players you named have been with him all 3 yrs and in some cases 2. Fiz hasn't even had a full season yet and you want immediate results? With that said, regardless of how you feel about Mudiay, he is having his best season in the league as is Vonleh...

Lets give Fiz some time...BTW, how has the Griz looked since Fiz left that squad?

Let's give Phil sometime, let's give fisher sometime, let's give JH sometime..

You give any coach a talented roster and they can win, that's like super obvious.

But good coaches turn average players into above average, and above average into super stars(like mda did with nash and harden).

jerking guys like frank around, one minute he's a pg, who doesn't play fast enough, then he's a shooting guard who doesn't shoot enough, then he's a SF, who isn't strong enough..thats whats killing his development.

this isn't all on fiz either, you bring in guys for one yr then sit them because there not signed through next season

does 10 wins tell the whole story? Even Hardaway in his dallas presser was very complimentary about Fiz and not letting the losing get to them. Fiz told you and the rest of us that wins would not be the sole measure. Knox has pushed back on fans insinuating we are tanking on purpose. This team has fight in them.

You are not factoring that a lessor coach might have lost this team by now, and what you deem as not progress might be further behind by another. Perhaps the team would be publically frustrated and humiliated instead of united and purposeful.
Your reasoning is a good coach takes it and makes it better. Maybe 5 wins would be the benchmark and Fiz has DOUBLED it!! I don't know. Knicks don't have to do this, they could have played Clee more, Lance, maybe made a few trades and been Nets like in two years. We have our own path set by goals and objectives. Not yours.

you really trying to justify this BS...for what?

67 yrs and no coach has every loss this many games in a row, or in a season, no FO has every put such a BS roster on the court in an arena that has people paying up to 6k for for 1 game, and $150 for nose bleed..No FO has ever had this many players begging to be traded, or waived..

what happens if we get the 5th pick and NO top FA

this team doesn't have an ounce of sense or fight, lowest IQ of any team i have ever seen..other than the bROwns

ES
martin
Posts: 48701
Alba Posts: 106
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
USA
2/12/2019  10:43 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
Nalod wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Uptown wrote:
MS wrote:Kenny happens to be one of the best player development people in basketball. If your system is designed to maximize a players strengths I would say Kenny is showing himself to be the coach of the year.

Levertt, Spencer, DLO, Hollis Jefferson, Allen, Harris all seem to be getting better.

Fizdale, you can't say that anyone has shown tremendous progress. Robinson of late is starting to look good, but Frank hasn't shown you much of anything, Know is in and out and steps out of bounds or travels 2-3 times a game on basic moves, he has jerked everyone in and out of the rotation. They do need to put a few wins on the boards just to improve the moral of the team. The Kanter thing was a big distraction, you had Lee who was a professional thankfully, but he should have been playing over Lance Thomas and would have been fine for 20 minutes a night just to see if you could have boasted his trade value and show the young guys how important it is to play the right way.

Atkinson is now in his 3rd year, and most of the players you named have been with him all 3 yrs and in some cases 2. Fiz hasn't even had a full season yet and you want immediate results? With that said, regardless of how you feel about Mudiay, he is having his best season in the league as is Vonleh...

Lets give Fiz some time...BTW, how has the Griz looked since Fiz left that squad?

Let's give Phil sometime, let's give fisher sometime, let's give JH sometime..

You give any coach a talented roster and they can win, that's like super obvious.

But good coaches turn average players into above average, and above average into super stars(like mda did with nash and harden).

jerking guys like frank around, one minute he's a pg, who doesn't play fast enough, then he's a shooting guard who doesn't shoot enough, then he's a SF, who isn't strong enough..thats whats killing his development.

this isn't all on fiz either, you bring in guys for one yr then sit them because there not signed through next season

does 10 wins tell the whole story? Even Hardaway in his dallas presser was very complimentary about Fiz and not letting the losing get to them. Fiz told you and the rest of us that wins would not be the sole measure. Knox has pushed back on fans insinuating we are tanking on purpose. This team has fight in them.

You are not factoring that a lessor coach might have lost this team by now, and what you deem as not progress might be further behind by another. Perhaps the team would be publically frustrated and humiliated instead of united and purposeful.
Your reasoning is a good coach takes it and makes it better. Maybe 5 wins would be the benchmark and Fiz has DOUBLED it!! I don't know. Knicks don't have to do this, they could have played Clee more, Lance, maybe made a few trades and been Nets like in two years. We have our own path set by goals and objectives. Not yours.

you really trying to justify this BS...for what?

67 yrs and no coach has every loss this many games in a row, or in a season, no FO has every put such a BS roster on the court in an arena that has people paying up to 6k for for 1 game, and $150 for nose bleed..No FO has ever had this many players begging to be traded, or waived..

what happens if we get the 5th pick and NO top FA

this team doesn't have an ounce of sense or fight, lowest IQ of any team i have ever seen..other than the bROwns

BORING

Team does have fight, what you meant was there hasn't been any wins to match. They do lose themselves from time to time and that's what you get when your team is young and inexperienced.

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Nalod
Posts: 57874
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USA
2/12/2019  11:25 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
Nalod wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Uptown wrote:
MS wrote:Kenny happens to be one of the best player development people in basketball. If your system is designed to maximize a players strengths I would say Kenny is showing himself to be the coach of the year.

Levertt, Spencer, DLO, Hollis Jefferson, Allen, Harris all seem to be getting better.

Fizdale, you can't say that anyone has shown tremendous progress. Robinson of late is starting to look good, but Frank hasn't shown you much of anything, Know is in and out and steps out of bounds or travels 2-3 times a game on basic moves, he has jerked everyone in and out of the rotation. They do need to put a few wins on the boards just to improve the moral of the team. The Kanter thing was a big distraction, you had Lee who was a professional thankfully, but he should have been playing over Lance Thomas and would have been fine for 20 minutes a night just to see if you could have boasted his trade value and show the young guys how important it is to play the right way.

Atkinson is now in his 3rd year, and most of the players you named have been with him all 3 yrs and in some cases 2. Fiz hasn't even had a full season yet and you want immediate results? With that said, regardless of how you feel about Mudiay, he is having his best season in the league as is Vonleh...

Lets give Fiz some time...BTW, how has the Griz looked since Fiz left that squad?

Let's give Phil sometime, let's give fisher sometime, let's give JH sometime..

You give any coach a talented roster and they can win, that's like super obvious.

But good coaches turn average players into above average, and above average into super stars(like mda did with nash and harden).

jerking guys like frank around, one minute he's a pg, who doesn't play fast enough, then he's a shooting guard who doesn't shoot enough, then he's a SF, who isn't strong enough..thats whats killing his development.

this isn't all on fiz either, you bring in guys for one yr then sit them because there not signed through next season

does 10 wins tell the whole story? Even Hardaway in his dallas presser was very complimentary about Fiz and not letting the losing get to them. Fiz told you and the rest of us that wins would not be the sole measure. Knox has pushed back on fans insinuating we are tanking on purpose. This team has fight in them.

You are not factoring that a lessor coach might have lost this team by now, and what you deem as not progress might be further behind by another. Perhaps the team would be publically frustrated and humiliated instead of united and purposeful.
Your reasoning is a good coach takes it and makes it better. Maybe 5 wins would be the benchmark and Fiz has DOUBLED it!! I don't know. Knicks don't have to do this, they could have played Clee more, Lance, maybe made a few trades and been Nets like in two years. We have our own path set by goals and objectives. Not yours.

you really trying to justify this BS...for what?

67 yrs and no coach has every loss this many games in a row, or in a season, no FO has every put such a BS roster on the court in an arena that has people paying up to 6k for for 1 game, and $150 for nose bleed..No FO has ever had this many players begging to be traded, or waived..

what happens if we get the 5th pick and NO top FA

this team doesn't have an ounce of sense or fight, lowest IQ of any team i have ever seen..other than the bROwns

Your moral objections are your subjective emotions. They are yours. You need to understand not everyone feels as you do. You often "Laugh" at those who you are not in agreement with. BTW, its not a good look.

You don't show a fool a job half done!
knicks1248
Posts: 38919
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #582
2/12/2019  11:52 AM
martin wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Nalod wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Uptown wrote:
MS wrote:Kenny happens to be one of the best player development people in basketball. If your system is designed to maximize a players strengths I would say Kenny is showing himself to be the coach of the year.

Levertt, Spencer, DLO, Hollis Jefferson, Allen, Harris all seem to be getting better.

Fizdale, you can't say that anyone has shown tremendous progress. Robinson of late is starting to look good, but Frank hasn't shown you much of anything, Know is in and out and steps out of bounds or travels 2-3 times a game on basic moves, he has jerked everyone in and out of the rotation. They do need to put a few wins on the boards just to improve the moral of the team. The Kanter thing was a big distraction, you had Lee who was a professional thankfully, but he should have been playing over Lance Thomas and would have been fine for 20 minutes a night just to see if you could have boasted his trade value and show the young guys how important it is to play the right way.

Atkinson is now in his 3rd year, and most of the players you named have been with him all 3 yrs and in some cases 2. Fiz hasn't even had a full season yet and you want immediate results? With that said, regardless of how you feel about Mudiay, he is having his best season in the league as is Vonleh...

Lets give Fiz some time...BTW, how has the Griz looked since Fiz left that squad?

Let's give Phil sometime, let's give fisher sometime, let's give JH sometime..

You give any coach a talented roster and they can win, that's like super obvious.

But good coaches turn average players into above average, and above average into super stars(like mda did with nash and harden).

jerking guys like frank around, one minute he's a pg, who doesn't play fast enough, then he's a shooting guard who doesn't shoot enough, then he's a SF, who isn't strong enough..thats whats killing his development.

this isn't all on fiz either, you bring in guys for one yr then sit them because there not signed through next season

does 10 wins tell the whole story? Even Hardaway in his dallas presser was very complimentary about Fiz and not letting the losing get to them. Fiz told you and the rest of us that wins would not be the sole measure. Knox has pushed back on fans insinuating we are tanking on purpose. This team has fight in them.

You are not factoring that a lessor coach might have lost this team by now, and what you deem as not progress might be further behind by another. Perhaps the team would be publically frustrated and humiliated instead of united and purposeful.
Your reasoning is a good coach takes it and makes it better. Maybe 5 wins would be the benchmark and Fiz has DOUBLED it!! I don't know. Knicks don't have to do this, they could have played Clee more, Lance, maybe made a few trades and been Nets like in two years. We have our own path set by goals and objectives. Not yours.

you really trying to justify this BS...for what?

67 yrs and no coach has every loss this many games in a row, or in a season, no FO has every put such a BS roster on the court in an arena that has people paying up to 6k for for 1 game, and $150 for nose bleed..No FO has ever had this many players begging to be traded, or waived..

what happens if we get the 5th pick and NO top FA

this team doesn't have an ounce of sense or fight, lowest IQ of any team i have ever seen..other than the bROwns

BORING

Team does have fight, what you meant was there hasn't been any wins to match. They do lose themselves from time to time and that's what you get when your team is young and inexperienced.

what would they be fighting for.

when you saddle your team with a bunch of one yr contracts, you basically get selfish play across the boards..and you can't develop anyone in an environment like that..

ES
meloshouldgo
Posts: 26456
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Joined: 5/3/2014
Member: #5801

2/12/2019  1:55 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
Uptown wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Is anyone showing progress at all..

Fiz keeps indicating he is coaching is ass off to win games

Knicks coach David Fizdale is also disappointed by the perception he’s coaching to lose games to ensure the best odds to win the lottery, with the top prize being a Duke Mack Truck named Zion Williamson.

Fizdale said he would never “cheat the game” like that.

If your telling me your coaching your ass off, and you have won 1 game in almost 3 months..maybe his points are not getting through. He also said he had to dumb down the system and make it more basic.

we won 1 games since he said that...

I was watching THJ play last night, an he looked so much better in dallas, and played much more under control..

I will ask you again...In your opinion, it Brett Brown and Kenny Atkinson good coaches?


Kenny Atkison is a decent coach with a very good staff, brown is as average as they come.

Kenny had a system that he has been using since day one regardless of the roster, and then management went and acquired players to fit that system,

just like MDA never dumb down his system because he didnt have NASH, no he turned Lin, and duhon into nash


Kenny uses MDA system all day every day, since he became a head coach, he never wavered from it despite the lack of 3 point shooters, he made everybody on that roster take and make more 3's then they ever had including LOPEZ..

No one will ever turn Lin and Duhon into Nash. Ever.
But yes, you should have a system and stick to it. Only Phil tried to do that post MDA, and he wasn't coaching. Jeff gave up on the system too soon when Phil was fired.

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
Nalod
Posts: 57874
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Member: #508
USA
2/12/2019  1:58 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
martin wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Nalod wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Uptown wrote:
MS wrote:Kenny happens to be one of the best player development people in basketball. If your system is designed to maximize a players strengths I would say Kenny is showing himself to be the coach of the year.

Levertt, Spencer, DLO, Hollis Jefferson, Allen, Harris all seem to be getting better.

Fizdale, you can't say that anyone has shown tremendous progress. Robinson of late is starting to look good, but Frank hasn't shown you much of anything, Know is in and out and steps out of bounds or travels 2-3 times a game on basic moves, he has jerked everyone in and out of the rotation. They do need to put a few wins on the boards just to improve the moral of the team. The Kanter thing was a big distraction, you had Lee who was a professional thankfully, but he should have been playing over Lance Thomas and would have been fine for 20 minutes a night just to see if you could have boasted his trade value and show the young guys how important it is to play the right way.

Atkinson is now in his 3rd year, and most of the players you named have been with him all 3 yrs and in some cases 2. Fiz hasn't even had a full season yet and you want immediate results? With that said, regardless of how you feel about Mudiay, he is having his best season in the league as is Vonleh...

Lets give Fiz some time...BTW, how has the Griz looked since Fiz left that squad?

Let's give Phil sometime, let's give fisher sometime, let's give JH sometime..

You give any coach a talented roster and they can win, that's like super obvious.

But good coaches turn average players into above average, and above average into super stars(like mda did with nash and harden).

jerking guys like frank around, one minute he's a pg, who doesn't play fast enough, then he's a shooting guard who doesn't shoot enough, then he's a SF, who isn't strong enough..thats whats killing his development.

this isn't all on fiz either, you bring in guys for one yr then sit them because there not signed through next season

does 10 wins tell the whole story? Even Hardaway in his dallas presser was very complimentary about Fiz and not letting the losing get to them. Fiz told you and the rest of us that wins would not be the sole measure. Knox has pushed back on fans insinuating we are tanking on purpose. This team has fight in them.

You are not factoring that a lessor coach might have lost this team by now, and what you deem as not progress might be further behind by another. Perhaps the team would be publically frustrated and humiliated instead of united and purposeful.
Your reasoning is a good coach takes it and makes it better. Maybe 5 wins would be the benchmark and Fiz has DOUBLED it!! I don't know. Knicks don't have to do this, they could have played Clee more, Lance, maybe made a few trades and been Nets like in two years. We have our own path set by goals and objectives. Not yours.

you really trying to justify this BS...for what?

67 yrs and no coach has every loss this many games in a row, or in a season, no FO has every put such a BS roster on the court in an arena that has people paying up to 6k for for 1 game, and $150 for nose bleed..No FO has ever had this many players begging to be traded, or waived..

what happens if we get the 5th pick and NO top FA

this team doesn't have an ounce of sense or fight, lowest IQ of any team i have ever seen..other than the bROwns

BORING

Team does have fight, what you meant was there hasn't been any wins to match. They do lose themselves from time to time and that's what you get when your team is young and inexperienced.

what would they be fighting for.

when you saddle your team with a bunch of one yr contracts, you basically get selfish play across the boards..and you can't develop anyone in an environment like that..

Your also trying to impress other coaches/GM's in the league with work ethic and improvement.
Mudiay is not out of the league if he keeps improving regardless of knicks financial and roster situation.
Im seeing Robinson improve. You don't? Might be one of our most important player going forward to play or as a trading chip.

You don't show a fool a job half done!
meloshouldgo
Posts: 26456
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2/12/2019  2:04 PM
I think Knicks1248 has stated the correct worst case scenario

5th pick and no major FAs(or if we win games 6th to tenth pick).
We would be stuck with Dennis Smith Jr and his empty stats as our central piece along with overpaying for second or third tier FAs. I think that is a real and scary possibility. And you can't blame Phil for it anymore.

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
martin
Posts: 48701
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2/12/2019  2:09 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:I think Knicks1248 has stated the correct worst case scenario

5th pick and no major FAs(or if we win games 6th to tenth pick).
We would be stuck with Dennis Smith Jr and his empty stats as our central piece along with overpaying for second or third tier FAs. I think that is a real and scary possibility. And you can't blame Phil for it anymore.

If all you do in life is figure out the worst case scenarios and harp over and over again that they are possibilities and can't move off of that, life will be long and dull and kinda pathetic.

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