fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Moonangie wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:DSJ is way to ball dominant. Everyone else is standing around while he dribbles. Durant, Leonard, Thompson wont want to play with him

He wouldn't be so ball dominant playing with elite talent...he's playing with rooks...probs he has carte blanche from Fiz in this obvious tank year.

Rick and Luka beg to differ.

Hopefully we can pump and dump him, especially if we pick 2 (Ja) and/or if we sign a big FA PG

Fish, whats up man? So it is a knock on Smith that the Mavs were lucky to get the best all around player in the draft? One that is extremely ball dominant? Did Rick differ in 2017/2018 season before they won the lotto? Yeah but lets ignore the truth. Fish playing any angle to put the kid he hates so much down. Why?

Hofstra! Whats good dude? Offer to punch anyone who doesnt see it your way? Tired of stat nerds who dont understand jocks? Then sir... Dennis Smith might just be the guy for you!
Facts:
Averages about as many shots taken as points made (for you non stat guys that stinks)
Poor A/TO for PG
Bad +/- stats
looks great in highlights

What is really funny is how you think I hate him. This is an integral part of your debating skills. Its like talking to a Trump supporter. Folks just cant admit what a great job Don is doing because they hate him so much. I dont hate DSjr. I never have.

However now he's a Knick and I love him like KristapsMudiay. It would be great if he pans out and is a winning player. He's not a court vision guy but he's surely a good passer and if his 3 gets a bit better and his shot selection ever shows up at all he could certainly be a good PG. I picture his upside a drive and dish type scoring PG like Marbury (minus the vasoline eating and bad attitude). Maybe some Steve Francis there also. DSjr can absolutely turn into an excellent player. He just isnt now. Dont know why this works you up so much. Frank stinks right now and Im not sweating it... you should follow my example. Also avoid 1248's posts. They are laced with PCP.

I think with Jordan (nice ally oop vs. the Raptors btw) the Knicks will start playing better. I think we are seeing that already. Hopefully Smith looks better as well and draws attention come draft day, especially if we are #2 as I think after Zion that Ja is the only franchise talent so I think Smith has some value if he plays well with 2 years on his rookie deal.

If we keep him Im hopeful that Fiz can get him playing well. I never thought Mudiay would show the fundamental improvements he's shown (hoping its not just PEDs) and I think that Fiz is a good fit, certainly for the next 30ish games.

Hows your boy Melo doing? Times are tough for misunderstood underappreciated star players!

LMAO. Melo looked like he had two broken legs in OKC. Still may be in a better mood than your boy Frank.

Good seeing you back. No punching anyone. Simmering down in my old age. Think only Meloshouldgo provoked that level anyway. Saw he may be on the outs. I hope not. He was funny.

Yep, seems like I have a new poster child in Smith. Crazy how he ended up here. Trying to stick up for all the other hack favorites. Scared Frank, Skinny Knox, No ability Fiz, Traitor KP, Over the hill Mudaiy. Endless work.

Think we have finally started a clean slate though. Don't like that we F up another potential star but gotta look forward and be thankful for the decent return. I was talking about Melo of course and getting great assets back in Kanter and Dougie. Looks like the stash for Kp may be pretty good. Hopefully we can turn those assets into something good. Glad we did not give up on Frank, although he probably has the second half to prove something before they do. Like Mudiays progress. Think we went from a team with a potential star and a lot of young hopefuls to a team without a potential star and a **** load of young potential. Do like the possibility of Smith's ceiling. Although afraid he may not have the ability to fix his shot. Kid has a bad hitch. Those are hard to fix but I would not know as I shot close to 50% in college.

Bretrobert1 wrote:To me, DSjr hasn't gotten past the stage where he was just quicker and more athletic than the competition. It's like a really athletic high school player that scores 20/game against bad teams b/c he can get to the hoop. But then, when the same player sees a solid defensive team--with good fundamentals, that same player won't show up in the boxscore except maybe a handful of turnovers. Granted, it's not quite at that level, but that's a fairly decent comparison.

feel like I agree with you on this completely, Mudiay fits into this same category but instead of pure athleticism, he overwhelmed with big body.

Bretrobert1 wrote:Really good players that possess quicks and athleticism use it in spurts but don't rely on those traits 100%. For me, this is the big question with Zion. Is he a once in a generation type athlete, or does he look like a freak playing against inferior competition? At his height, I'm leaning towards the latter. I think he'll be a solid pro, but he's not going to dominate the League from an athletic standpoint at 6'7". Will he have a handful of explosive plays a game?.. Yes. Will those plays put him on another level over the other best 4's in the League. I have a hard time seeing it.

Have the opposite take about Zion than yours. Who is going to guard him? Out power a SF, outquick most PF's. And not for nothing but he could probably out power PF's

Chandler wrote:

martin wrote:

Bretrobert1 wrote:To me, DSjr hasn't gotten past the stage where he was just quicker and more athletic than the competition. It's like a really athletic high school player that scores 20/game against bad teams b/c he can get to the hoop. But then, when the same player sees a solid defensive team--with good fundamentals, that same player won't show up in the boxscore except maybe a handful of turnovers. Granted, it's not quite at that level, but that's a fairly decent comparison.

feel like I agree with you on this completely, Mudiay fits into this same category but instead of pure athleticism, he overwhelmed with big body.

Bretrobert1 wrote:Really good players that possess quicks and athleticism use it in spurts but don't rely on those traits 100%. For me, this is the big question with Zion. Is he a once in a generation type athlete, or does he look like a freak playing against inferior competition? At his height, I'm leaning towards the latter. I think he'll be a solid pro, but he's not going to dominate the League from an athletic standpoint at 6'7". Will he have a handful of explosive plays a game?.. Yes. Will those plays put him on another level over the other best 4's in the League. I have a hard time seeing it.

Have the opposite take about Zion than yours. Who is going to guard him? Out power a SF, outquick most PF's. And not for nothing but he could probably out power PF's

I tend to agree with this too. DSJ needs to bring his athleticism on D too, and get consistent jumper. He's much more under control than Mudiay -- it's just that his jumper sometime is plain fugly (looks like his feet are set etc just way off target)

Zion is shooting an incredible percentage but for a simple reason. He gets great position and he's so low and strong (big butt/strong core) no one can push him off balance. He also seems to have incredibly strong hands (Kawhi), and a great nose for the ball. It's a bit of hyperbole but if one remembers a young shaq, it was ridiculous. They'd dump it to him in the very low post. No one could deny him that position, no one could do anything once he got the ball other than flat out maul him and hope he had to shoot 2 Fts instead of an AND 1

In today's NBA (with the demise of big bigs) Zion can have a similar impact (lesser IMO but that kind of ability)

If I were the Knicks supreme ruler, I would have a tough time of whether to keep him or trade him for AD (whi IMO is similarly impressive, except you know how he will play at an NBA level)

I'm all for trading that 1st round pick in a deal for AD if it's anything other than the #1.

I totally agree about what Zion can do. And the difference between him and any big that can do that now is Zion's obviously athletic enough to play against those small lineups and won't be a total defensive liability against them. He's too unique a talent to pass up if we get the #1.

Chandler wrote: He gets great position and he's so low and strong (big butt/strong core) no one can push him off balance. He also seems to have incredibly strong hands (Kawhi), and a great nose for the ball. It's a bit of hyperbole but if one remembers a young shaq, it was ridiculous. They'd dump it to him in the very low post. No one could deny him that position, no one could do anything once he got the ball other than flat out maul him and hope he had to shoot 2 Fts instead of an AND 1

In today's NBA (with the demise of big bigs) Zion can have a similar impact (lesser IMO but that kind of ability)

No one at the college level is pushing him off balance.

At the NBA level - Opponents with better PEDS, better training, better technique, better footwork, stronger, faster, better situational awareness, better at operating in close contact. There's a reason they made the NBA and other guys did not.

Zion is a very very interesting prospect. He does not have a league average three point shot and he doesn't profile out to be able to defend the rim consistently. If he's going to play the middle, that's going to be tough on him. He does create matchup problems but young players don't tend to get calls in their favor ( Doncic and Lin were complicated exceptions to this) Young bigs, if he profiles out that way, especially.

Rookie wall is another issue. College guys don't play the same grind against this level of competition. It's easy to see Zion steam rolling guys now, but after 60 games and getting pounded by better/more skilled/more experienced athletes, that's not going to be easy.

He's not Shaq, not by several country miles.

You can chew through multiple levels of sports just on raw power/raw superior athleticism compared to your peers. When you get against better competition, you need to operate the mental "chess game" of adjustments/counter adjustments better and have better technique.

He's very high risk and very high reward. I can see why people are excited, but to think he will simply walk into the NBA and immediately dominate is a big ask at this point.

GustavBahler wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:https://www.mavsmoneyball.com/platform/amp/2019/2/2/18206290/the-unexpected-path-of-dennis-smith-jr-kristaps-porzingis-mavericks-nba-trade-deadline

Chemistry was an issue. Sometimes it just doesnt work out. Dont believe this is a situation where one side is to blame. Doncic is already one of the best P&R players in the league. Not that big a surprise that the focus had shifted to Doncic. Wether or not Smith jr. was pitch perfect, the lack of chemistry on the court made a change inevitable.

If Smith jr doesnt stick, dont believe its going to be because of his personality. More about what he does to round out his game. Im pretty sure he's got a huge chip on his shoulder at this point over this. Lets see how he responds.

You could be right about chemistry. Look ive made it known that im not a huge DSJ fan but there is no question he has offensive ability and is still very young. If we can somehow get him to work more on distribution and at least a little defense it could be a lot of fun.

I think this will turn out badly, but I'll still take Smith Jr's cost controlled contract over Mudiay. If we have to have one dimensional chuckers then I would want the least expensive and youngest one. Hoping he can be taught to play the right way but ZERO confidence in Fiz's ability to do so especially after a great caoch like Carlisle couldn't.

Carlisle was tough on Smith jr. characteristically tough. Never read anything about Carlisle suggesting that he was a problem. Believe Carlisle is too proud to apologize to Smith jr, if he didnt believe he could have handled the transition to Doncic better.

Smith jr was starting from day one, didnt get to ease into learning how to be a starting PG in the NBA.

NY will give Smithjr a great opportunity to run a team. Already has some experience to learn from. Not predicting anything, just glad he's here for the opportunity.

The idea that an accomplished coach has to apologize to an entitled 19 yr old, is why the NBA is falling apart at the seams. Opportunity wasn't lacking discipline was. Discipline more than talent is needed to succeed in the NBA. You can make it to the NBA on talent alone, because you now play only one year in college and may not have major weaknesses in your game exposed. Once you get here it's a different game and everyone elese is also faster, stronger and in a few cases smarter. A coach like Carlisle would have made him great if he had put in the effort sincerely opn both ends of teh floor. Fiz won't make him better, but may lead him to more highlight reels and short term foolishness.

Who says Carlisle didnt want to apologize? Who says Carlisle didnt do anything worth apologizing for? You are putting whatever happened on a kid, and giving mgmt, coaching, a complete pass. Carlisle took responsibility for not handling the situation the best way he could. Players dont respect coaches, organizations who pass the buck. Shows a lack of character to let a kid believe its all on him.

Carlisle is one of the toughest coaches to play for in NBA history. He's admitted that sometimes he doesnt get it right. Remember that huge dustup he got into with Rondo? Championship winning PG? Dont remember Carlisle apologizing for that.

Im old school as well. Never did buy into the idea that if a coach f's up somehow, he's supposed to act like he did nothing wrong, pin it on his players. Treating players with respect doesnt make them "entitled".

Frank was brought along gradually, which was the right thing to do. If he had been thrust into the starting job from day one, I doubt he would have performed as well. Wasnt ready. Just because Smith jr. didnt figure it all out his rookie year, doesnt mean he cant excel. You are writing the kid's epitath before he has played game one for the Knicks.

He was supplanted by one of the best rookies to come around in years, with a very brief chance to make it work. Glad that Dallas isnt the last opportunity that he will ever get in this league. Smith is an amazing athlete who has to learn to combine his athleticism, with a more well rounded game.

Glad he's getting the chance in NY to prove he can run a team long term. Havent seen anyone on the Knicks yet wbo has shown he can for more than a handful of games. You should welcome the competition.

I've been watching Allen run the point. He seems well rounded, and does a lot of things necessary, both offensively and defensively, to gain a spot in the rotation. He makes a few people expendable.

TripleThreat wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote: Mavs realized they had a franchise player and needed to change directions. That simple. But lets make it all about Smiths attitude being what triggered the Mavs change of direction. And blame it on Smith taking a sabbatical. FYI Getting KP had a little bit to do with it as well. And I guess Mathews and Barnes did not want to play with Luca and were moved for same reason?

Your pretty good. You can gauge a winning team player in just a year and half in the NBA? These are all easy put downs of anyone that you cant factually devalue. Everything you just said is just not backed by stats. realistic expectations and is extremely premature. Makes no sense to label a kid that way, who is 20 years young and whos small sample size proves you wrong.

How in the entire world are you labeling what DSJr did as a "sabbatical"?

He decided not to show up. Those of you still in the working world, on Monday, decide you don't like how things are going at your job, AND JUST NOT SHOW UP. AND KEEP NOT SHOWING UP. What do you think is going to happen?

You said in some other thread that you coached high school BB or did in the past. Is this what you teach those kids? Would you accept this behavior from one of those kids?

Mavs would be happy to keep DSJr. If he showed up and offered some off the ball 3 and D value.

DSJR offers not real 3 AND D value. Which is why he was expendable.

If you can't offer three and D as a non pivot, you need to bring something extreme to the table. You can squeeze by if you offer one or the other, but lacking both?

You can "gauge" a guy if he just doesn't show up. You can "label" a guy who just doesn't show up.

Rick Carlisle is one of the most respect coaches in the league. The Mavs have turned around players careers in the past. If it's a question of Carlisle versus a guy who won't show up, I'll take Carlisle.

Is this what you teach those kids? Seriously?

Do you read entire threads? Did not use the word "sabbatical" except for responding to the other posters use of it. But fair enough. So Smith was not hurt when he first went out? He just refused to play? Can you post where that was confirmed by the FO or Carlisle? And your telling me the Mavs were begging Smith to play prior to a major trade? That's smart. More likely that Mavs probably told Smith they were trading him during his time with an injury. Smiths team, wisely, saw no reason to play as did the Mavs. Period. But lets tell it your way as it sounds more dramatic.

Never said I coached High School ball. Your 0 for 2 in reading threads completely. But lets dive into your "3 and D"
Funny how guys mention **** like they're NBA scouts and its a knock on a player by pointing out he is not a 100% complete player. But okay, So you want Smith to have ridiculous hops(he does). You want him to be one of the quickest players in NBA to the basket.(He is). You want him to be able to penetrate and create for others(he does). AND You want him to hit the three at a high rate and play top defense against some of the best basketball Players in the world? In his First season and a half? That is not expecting much. The kid would be an ALL STAR at 20 if he could do it all.

Your entire post still misses what the MAIN subject matter of the thread was. That is, what the essential reasoning behind the trade was. My point was that IT WAS NOT about Smith and his "3 and D" You can make it all about what Smith Jr was lacking, as a second year player, but that is absolutely not why the trade was initiated. But I guess you read that on my previous posts. This trade had very little to do about Smith Jr. and ALL about pairing Luka and KP. Talking about Smith deficiencies would be like claiming the Knicks made the trade solely due to Timmys bad shot selection.

Btw. Your rant about Carlisle and what he thought(in your own mind) of Smith is pure speculation. But okay, please post a link to Carlisle critisizing his work ethic or negative attitude affect on the team. May have missed that.

From P&T..

https://www.postingandtoasting.com/2019/3/14/18266335/knicks-practice-notes-mario-hezonja-is-back-but-dennis-smith-jr-hurt-his-back

Say it ain’t so, Dennis!

Smith Jr. is apparently questionable for the game against the Spurs because of a sore lower back, the cause of which is not totally clear.

Against the Indiana Pacers this past Tuesday, the 6’3, 21-year-old point guard played 25 minutes and put up 7 points, 3 rebounds and 3 assists, but according to the various Knicks beat reporters, he’s got a back issue that will likely keep him out at least one game.

Earlier this season, in January — aka before he was traded to the Knicks — Smith Jr. missed four games, three of which were said to be related to a problematic back. That entire situation was strange though, as Smith Jr. was completely away from the team for a few days, and the whole thing happened while his name kept popping up in trade rumors.

It’s not totally clear what the deal is with his back, but perhaps his absence means that Kadeem Allen will get called up from the G-League for tomorrow’s game. Or maybe the Knicks will just go with only Emmanuel Mudiay as an available point guard. It’s their prerogative!