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Bondy: High number of players w/expiring contracts has negatively affected ball movement (Fiz quote in his tweet)
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TripleThreat
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1/13/2019  1:16 AM
BigRedDog wrote:No one will change Triplefrauds mind and we see something else happening. Time will tell. I don't think the past 3 yrs will define Mudiays career, rather the next 2 yrs. I think especially never going to college and a wasted yr in China, I kind of think its almost Mudiays 1st or 2nd yr


In Denver, in 2 full season and half of another, Mudiay played in a total of 165 games. He started 121 games, 107 in his first two seasons.

1st season - 2004.6 total minutes played

2nd season - 1408 total minutes played

3rd season - 751.8 total minutes played

Before Mudiay was a Knick, he played a total of 4,164.4 minutes total

So, in order for you to drive this bull**** narrative of Mudiay, your last ditch effort is to RETCON out 165 games, 121 starts and close to 4,200 total minutes.

You call me a "fraud" but you want everyone here, and everyone in the NBA to make OVER FOUR THOUSAND TOTAL MINUTES OF NBA GAME TIME/EXPERIENCE DISAPPEAR.

Some people keep saying, Mudiay needs an opportunity! He just needs an opportunity! Hey, wait, do you mean something like OVER FOUR THOUSAND TOTAL MINUTES OF NBA GAME EXPERIENCE?

Hey wait everyone, 165 total games, 121 starts and nearly 4,200 minutes, wait guys, THEY JUST DON'T COUNT. BECAUSE HE DIDN'T GO TO COLLEGE!

HAHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAAH


AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


How many minutes above close to 4,200 minutes and 121 starts does it take for "Time To Tell"?


Are you ****ing kidding me?

"Should have paid Lin and rid ourselves of Melo. Lin makes every team better." - HofstraBBall 11/12/2018
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Cartman718
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1/13/2019  1:11 PM
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:Thanks to those posters who are pointing out TripleThreat's agenda against Mudiay. I am done arguing with him, because you can throw words out like low bball IQ all you want without any specific examples to back that up, doesn't make it right. How exactly is low bball IQ measured, can we get examples of plays where this is on display, otherwise it's just rhetoric.
Every time I watch the Knicks play is another example of Mudiay’s low bbiq
Examples please?
You were also one of the posters defending Ron Baker on the Knicks at one time citing his great defense and at least decent IQ.
How’s that working out? It needs to be a combination of talent, IQ, IT factor etc
Nixluva is posting triangle screen grabs, even when nobody asks - Fishmike. LOL So are we going to reference that thread like the bible now? "The thread of Wroten Page 14 post 9" - EnySpree
martin
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1/13/2019  3:34 PM
Cartman718 wrote:
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:Thanks to those posters who are pointing out TripleThreat's agenda against Mudiay. I am done arguing with him, because you can throw words out like low bball IQ all you want without any specific examples to back that up, doesn't make it right. How exactly is low bball IQ measured, can we get examples of plays where this is on display, otherwise it's just rhetoric.
Every time I watch the Knicks play is another example of Mudiay's low bbiq
Examples please?
You were also one of the posters defending Ron Baker on the Knicks at one time citing his great defense and at least decent IQ.
How's that working out? It needs to be a combination of talent, IQ, IT factor etc

I don't have video editing skills to show these types of plays, if you don't see it, you probably won't.

Baker couldn't make a shot.

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fwk00
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1/13/2019  6:00 PM
TripleThreat wrote:
fwk00 wrote:Trip, I think where we disagree is in the metrics that every once in a while get published about the turning point for an NBA point guard (other positions vary). And the magic number of NBA years is 5 for point guards. There are obviously notable exceptions on either side of that number.

My observation on this is that it may be more of an indication of front office stability than anything the player can control.


Teams stuck in the perpetual mediocrity cycle have a profile.

My point is that the Knicks by dedicating themselves to an implicitly painful rebuild process are taking advantage of the by-product of this talent turnstile. That is, quite specifically, that other teams have already paid the front-loaded cost of these lottery picks.

As far as I can tell, rolling the dice on former top ten picks is just as inexpensive and effective as running second-rounders on the floor.

I don't think the Knicks are as bereft of talent as you think. They are loaded.

I see your point. You are making good points.

Something to consider is these other point guards who needed five years to realize their full skill set, I'd still argue many offered at least a passable floor of production to stay in the rotation and give indication that the then current floor still held value. Billups was used as an example ( I don't think he's a good cross example though) Billups was always a good defender. That was at least a bedrock to build upon. Mudiay offers zero 3 And D value.

If team gives up on a player during the timeline of his rookie contract ( by either low value trade or simply not picking up the 3rd/4th year option, that player is just not very good. ( Or to point, he was not very good with that team) We can mince the outer circumstances of the overall franchise, but the player was just not productive. This is where the question of major injury or limited minutes come into play. ( Both these things applied to Billups)

Here is where we are going to diverge.

-snip-

But even at 4.3 for this last year, you could get , with a little more, FOUR YEARS of the top pick in the 2nd round on your squad. Someone who is still in their prime developmental window.

Your arguments are sound. My observations are not about the financials however (and, yes, they are important). I'm looking at this "development year" strictly on the basis of the strategy for building a roster. To your last point - "FOUR YEARS of the top pick in the 2nd round" - I would argue that as persuasive as that argument may sound - the historical evidence would suggest that the vast majority of second-rounders never make it anywhere and the ones that do aren't necessarily the topmost picks.

I would still argue that the strategy the FO is experimenting with is plenty risky but still a shade more sensible than throwing darts with second-rounders. And I think they are tempering their risk with the fact that this year's salary cap makes no difference whatsoever.

TripleThreat wrote:
Here's the other problem, when the Knicks get a guy in his 4th year, they must make a contract assessment on him quickly. He could flame out ( most) but in the rare case he does well, it's a question of betting against one solid season against the previous three where the lack of production is why he was available in the first place. You are NOT getting the full benefit of the cost control aka COST CERTAINTY with the rookie deal. '

The Knicks are NOT taking advantage of anything. They are getting a player outside of his prime developmental window, who has flamed out somewhere else before, at a greater cost and risk question than a 2nd round pick.

Here we are speculating more about the long term blueprint for building a team than isolating the value of a player being given a trial run.

Early in the season, no one expected any of these players to stick or even play as well as they have (under the circumstances). An argument could be made that the Knicks FO was gaming the roster to lose.

But as the season progressed even Wally and Alan Hahn began to wonder aloud if the Knicks might be better off signing the players who have done well rather than concentrate exclusively on the star-puck FA signing this summer.

I'm guessing that the Knicks were sincerely on a talent hunt and scored wildly more successfully than anticipated. MR, Dotson, Vonleah, Knox, and Trier all show rotation worthy potential. The Knicks' two unicorns, KP and Frankie, have yet to deliver consistent results in line with the demands expected of them. But one can't argue that its not a talent gap slowing them down. So just speaking of those 7 players, we're talking about half-a-roster of pretty intriguing talent and players.

Now, you are correct in saying that this assessment is a bit of a snap judgement. We're talking about a small window of observation under soul-sucking circumstances. But let's give them the benefit of the doubt. Next year, add a top ten pick and a FA or two and we're looking at 9 or 10 rotation spots being accounted for.

And the evaluation of a handful of others is yet to be talked about.

TripleThreat wrote:
The reason the Knicks didn't give the roster spot to a 2nd round pick was because PHIL JACKSON KEPT TRADING THEM OFF. LIKE AN IDIOT. Yes, they got MRob with a 2nd, but they could have had way more 2nds available over time if they did not trade them off.
-snip-

I think your argument goes off the track here. The Knicks made room for Trier, an undrafted player and would have made room for others had they made the grade.

Phil Jackson had nothing to do with it - that rabbit hole ain't worth jumping down.

TripleThreat wrote:

The Knicks are not loaded, they have one very elite prospect ( Zinger) in his prime developmental window. They have a bunch of other guys in their prime developmental window. They are not loaded with talent. They are in a better direction than before. But how hard is that?

"How hard is that?"

You're talking to an educated fan who has argued since the days of Scott Layden to rebuild through the draft. In fact, in NY, it's so hard that this rebuild may get short-circuited at any time due to rabid media and fan pressure. Many of us have seen this act before.

On a side note, Porzingis is no longer an elite prospect. He's an unusually gifted front-court talent who has yet to play a winning season or even a healthy full season. Given the severity of his injury, he is a very risky asset.

The elite prospect you fail to mention is Frankie who holds just as much promise with far less risk.


TripleThreat wrote:

Now if Mudiay was a better player, I'd see the argument working more in line with what you are saying. He's ...

-snip-

A 2nd round pick might, and likely would bust. But is he gonna give you less than Mudiay if you gave said rookie 30 plus minutes a night and 20 plus shots a night plus allowed to be ball dominant and call his own number at will?

But will that 2nd round pick give you possibly more in a ROLE, like only playing 10 minutes a night or only getting five shots in a game?

A 2nd round pick does not need to equalize Mudiay. If he gave 50 percent of Mudiays RELATIVE production at a fraction of the cost, he's a massive value over Mudiay.

My guess is that the FO would love to see Mudiay succeed. My guess is that he (and Burke, among others) will be moved before the trading deadline. They will likely be replaced by exchanged players, 10 day contracts, or G-League call-ups. Just a hunch. More than a few teams will be looking to shore up their benches for the playoff run.

TripleThreat wrote:
It is NOT AN EFFECTIVE STRATEGY. You know what is an effective strategy? DUMPING SUNK COSTS.

Orlando saw Hezonja as a sunk cost and dumped him. Not worth the 5 percent chance of being something else to risk the 95 percent chance he'd still suck for them. Give the minutes, roster spot and cap space to someone else who might develop.

Phil Jackson took a bad situation and made it horrible. He ****ed up the cap sheet. And he dumped out 2nd round picks that were insanely valuable. That's it. This is why Mudiay is on the roster.

I'm a Phil fan. It wasn't pretty but he saved this franchise.

Whether the strategy is effective or not won't unfold for a year or two.

If I had my druthers, Elfrid Payton would have been the PG to acquire, not Mudiay (who I advocated for in the initial draft).

Mudiay and Hezonja (another player I had hopes for) are on Perry, not Phil.

TripleThreat
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1/13/2019  9:18 PM
fwk00 wrote:
My observations are not about the financials however (and, yes, they are important). I'm looking at this "development year" strictly on the basis of the strategy for building a roster. To your last point - "FOUR YEARS of the top pick in the 2nd round" - I would argue that as persuasive as that argument may sound - the historical evidence would suggest that the vast majority of second-rounders never make it anywhere and the ones that do aren't necessarily the topmost picks.

I would still argue that the strategy the FO is experimenting with is plenty risky but still a shade more sensible than throwing darts with second-rounders. And I think they are tempering their risk with the fact that this year's salary cap makes no difference whatsoever.

But as the season progressed even Wally and Alan Hahn began to wonder aloud if the Knicks might be better off signing the players who have done well rather than concentrate exclusively on the star-puck FA signing this summer.

I'm guessing that the Knicks were sincerely on a talent hunt and scored wildly more successfully than anticipated.

Phil Jackson had nothing to do with it - that rabbit hole ain't worth jumping down.


My guess is that the FO would love to see Mudiay succeed. My guess is that he (and Burke, among others) will be moved before the trading deadline. They will likely be replaced by exchanged players, 10 day contracts, or G-League call-ups. Just a hunch. More than a few teams will be looking to shore up their benches for the playoff run.

It's all about the money and it's not. If a team can get a true franchise guy like a LBJ, a Curry, an AD, then if he eats up 35 percent of your cap, then he does. A few number of players make a disproportional impact on the outcome of NBA games, so OK, that will happen. But keep in mind that even in this situation - EVERY DOLLAR COUNTS. It's just that a Curry is worth every dollar. But when you are talking about FRINGE guys, that money question becomes HUGE.

A guy like Melton is already a league average defender. His shooting mechanics and shot selection, even raw, are already better than Mudiay. Even if he only had one or the other and not both, he's still further along than Mudiay and has hope to get better. Mudiay has had four years and he's less skilled than some 2nd round picks. You are right, many 2nd rounders don't pan out. However they are much much cheaper if they do, they are far easier to dump if they don't and they still have a chance to get better. Mudiay has had over 4000 minutes of NBA game experience BEFORE he became a Knick. At what point does one say the time to "develop" is over.

A 2nd round pick will often show a better skill set ( at least one skill) than Mudiay, barring that, many at least have showed they can stay in shape consistently. There is still room to get better along the pathway of how players actually develop. The guy will be cheaper and easier to dump if needed. There is going to be a longer threshold of cost control available. The player might turn into future trade value ( Mudiay has close to none)

You are saying a 2nd round odds on won't pan out. I'm saying OK, that's true, but Mudiay has already proven he hasn't panned out.

And to an aside, there is no such thing as "no difference whatever cap" or a "no difference whatever contract". Every dollar counts. Phil Jackson likely thought that way, and we were gifted Noah's contract, Thomas' contract, Lee's contract, and on and on and on. Consider you are high on Trier, those dollars could mean another year of cost control over Trier versus not. It could mean the Knicks could have given Baker a little guaranteed money and avoided that 2 year/8 million contract because they could not sign him longer/team friendlier to start. Even what's seen as a little money is a huge difference.

What is going is NOT A STRATEGY.

Phil Jackson inherited lots of problems. These are not his fault. He walked into a team with STATs ugly contract, Melo's ball hoggery, Dolan being an idiot, only one first round pick in three years, problems with JR Smith and likely Chandler. Not his fault.

HE MADE MANY OF THOSE PROBLEM WORSE

Trading for Calderon. Giving Thomas, Lee and Noah dumb deal. Trading six years of cost control ( 3 for Grant and 3 for Lopez) for Rose, a guy who was a zero defender, no three point shot, off the court problems, injury problems and a massive salary. PJax set this team back five years in his last season.

The team is/was cap locked. Contracts that could not be traded and no one else wanted. There is no shopping for value strategy. Teams like the Knicks shop in the Tier 4 and Tier 5 levels of free agency. If another team in a better situation can offer equal money/equal years, they'll pick that team instead.

The Knicks shop from the retread/journeymen bargain racks because A) The better options don't want to be Knicks and have better options and B) the team can't afford anything else due to a ****ed cap sheet.

The team would like to see Mudiay show anything because they don't have a choice. If they had money to sign someone better, they would. If they had something to trade to get something better , they would. If they had draft assets to take in a guy who had a better chance at upside, they would.

Wally and Hahn are reading from a script ( that's OK, that's their job). They know, and the rest of the league knows that the Knicks have ZERO CHANCE at any of the Tier 1 and Tier 2 free agents. Zero chance. Slim to none with Tier 3 guys.

A strategy exists if you've actually got choices.

The Knicks literally have/had no other options. Mudiay is/was a warm body.

Here's the litmus test. Any team could have had Mudiay for basically nothing. It's not like Denver was making it a secret that they wanted to dump him and dump for him a long time. No one wanted him. Which is why you don't see swirling trade rumors for him now. Other teams would rather roll that UDFA or 2nd round pick over Mudiay.

"Should have paid Lin and rid ourselves of Melo. Lin makes every team better." - HofstraBBall 11/12/2018
Cartman718
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1/13/2019  9:57 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/13/2019  9:59 PM
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:Thanks to those posters who are pointing out TripleThreat's agenda against Mudiay. I am done arguing with him, because you can throw words out like low bball IQ all you want without any specific examples to back that up, doesn't make it right. How exactly is low bball IQ measured, can we get examples of plays where this is on display, otherwise it's just rhetoric.
Every time I watch the Knicks play is another example of Mudiay's low bbiq
Examples please?
You were also one of the posters defending Ron Baker on the Knicks at one time citing his great defense and at least decent IQ.
How's that working out? It needs to be a combination of talent, IQ, IT factor etc

I don't have video editing skills to show these types of plays, if you don't see it, you probably won't.

Baker couldn't make a shot.

I distinctly remember you saying Baker deserves a shot on the team even though he couldn't make a shot simply because of his defensive skills. Mudiay is the opposite. Shows promise on offense and sucks on defense, I am hoping he gets better by the end of the season. He has to know this is kinda his last chance. If he doesn't and Frank shows promise the rest of the way, I am ok with letting Mudiay walk.

But isn't rooting for Frank and Baker while dumping on Mudiay a double standard?

Nixluva is posting triangle screen grabs, even when nobody asks - Fishmike. LOL So are we going to reference that thread like the bible now? "The thread of Wroten Page 14 post 9" - EnySpree
martin
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1/14/2019  11:51 AM
Cartman718 wrote:
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:Thanks to those posters who are pointing out TripleThreat's agenda against Mudiay. I am done arguing with him, because you can throw words out like low bball IQ all you want without any specific examples to back that up, doesn't make it right. How exactly is low bball IQ measured, can we get examples of plays where this is on display, otherwise it's just rhetoric.
Every time I watch the Knicks play is another example of Mudiay's low bbiq
Examples please?
You were also one of the posters defending Ron Baker on the Knicks at one time citing his great defense and at least decent IQ.
How's that working out? It needs to be a combination of talent, IQ, IT factor etc

I don't have video editing skills to show these types of plays, if you don't see it, you probably won't.

Baker couldn't make a shot.

I distinctly remember you saying Baker deserves a shot on the team even though he couldn't make a shot simply because of his defensive skills. Mudiay is the opposite. Shows promise on offense and sucks on defense, I am hoping he gets better by the end of the season. He has to know this is kinda his last chance. If he doesn't and Frank shows promise the rest of the way, I am ok with letting Mudiay walk.

But isn't rooting for Frank and Baker while dumping on Mudiay a double standard?

How long to you give a guy to show what he can do? 1-3 yeas? More? Do you give a guy who is just 19 and not fully developed from a physical standpoint a bit more time that a 22 year old who probably wont change much?

Baker was able to shoot the ball in college and was OK from 3pt land, as a baseline lets say he was an OK shooter. Would that transfer to the NBA and especially to the NBA 3pt line? How much time to you give a guy to prove that he can shoot in the NBA? Ron was not a PG in college that was probably going to be his position in the NBA, or at least a combo guy. And if he can't shoot, he's done. Came into the league at 22 and broke his face in the second season and that will derail most anyone, not to mention he wouldn't get minutes behind JJack, Burke, Frank, THJr, Lee, Dot. That's 5 guards who are going to get minutes before him. He couldn't shoot and the Knicks had/have too many other guards. Defensively aware, so how long would it take him to find or prove he can shoot and then also run an offense? At $5M, not long. At the minimum without 5 other guys ahead of him, he could have lasted.

I don't mind the baseline hypothesis of a 3 year window of development for a new player in the NBA to show what he has got, sounds about right. Also take into consideration position changes (SG to PG), physical growth of an 18/19 year old, team/injury situation... and maybe that window opens up a bit.

Things I consider: Is a player adding something to his game every off season? Is he NOT making the same mistake from year to year (and sometimes month to month)? Does the player show you something that may not be consistent this year but is a peak at what he can do or is it a fluke? Are there any major flaws to his game that can never be overcome (Amare and lateral quickness, Melo and the crap for defense, Kanter and his lack of defensive awareness, THJr and his penchant for not getting around picks).

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martin
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1/14/2019  11:56 AM
Cartman718 wrote:
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:Thanks to those posters who are pointing out TripleThreat's agenda against Mudiay. I am done arguing with him, because you can throw words out like low bball IQ all you want without any specific examples to back that up, doesn't make it right. How exactly is low bball IQ measured, can we get examples of plays where this is on display, otherwise it's just rhetoric.
Every time I watch the Knicks play is another example of Mudiay's low bbiq
Examples please?
You were also one of the posters defending Ron Baker on the Knicks at one time citing his great defense and at least decent IQ.
How's that working out? It needs to be a combination of talent, IQ, IT factor etc

I don't have video editing skills to show these types of plays, if you don't see it, you probably won't.

Baker couldn't make a shot.

I distinctly remember you saying Baker deserves a shot on the team even though he couldn't make a shot simply because of his defensive skills. Mudiay is the opposite. Shows promise on offense and sucks on defense, I am hoping he gets better by the end of the season. He has to know this is kinda his last chance. If he doesn't and Frank shows promise the rest of the way, I am ok with letting Mudiay walk.

But isn't rooting for Frank and Baker while dumping on Mudiay a double standard?

I haven't watched Mudiay before this season. He is a bad defender. He can't make a freakin layup. He makes bad decisions during the game that should have been done with by last year at a minimum.

In 2 years if Frank can't shoot or make a layup, I'll be very down on him.

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arkrud
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1/14/2019  12:13 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/14/2019  12:15 PM
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:Thanks to those posters who are pointing out TripleThreat's agenda against Mudiay. I am done arguing with him, because you can throw words out like low bball IQ all you want without any specific examples to back that up, doesn't make it right. How exactly is low bball IQ measured, can we get examples of plays where this is on display, otherwise it's just rhetoric.
Every time I watch the Knicks play is another example of Mudiay's low bbiq
Examples please?
You were also one of the posters defending Ron Baker on the Knicks at one time citing his great defense and at least decent IQ.
How's that working out? It needs to be a combination of talent, IQ, IT factor etc

I don't have video editing skills to show these types of plays, if you don't see it, you probably won't.

Baker couldn't make a shot.

I distinctly remember you saying Baker deserves a shot on the team even though he couldn't make a shot simply because of his defensive skills. Mudiay is the opposite. Shows promise on offense and sucks on defense, I am hoping he gets better by the end of the season. He has to know this is kinda his last chance. If he doesn't and Frank shows promise the rest of the way, I am ok with letting Mudiay walk.

But isn't rooting for Frank and Baker while dumping on Mudiay a double standard?

I haven't watched Mudiay before this season. He is a bad defender. He can't make a freakin layup. He makes bad decisions during the game that should have been done with by last year at a minimum.

In 2 years if Frank can't shoot or make a layup, I'll be very down on him.

Frank is already better than Mud. He does not have confidence which smart player need in place of low-bbal-IQ actions which allows Mud to go for a lot of dumb low efficiently stuff without even recognizing that he does something wrong.
If Frank will have the same usage as Mud has lately he will have much better stats and team will have better results from PG.
But he is not high usage player on offense (at least for now) and nobody is interested in auditioning of sure thing.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Cartman718
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1/14/2019  9:14 PM
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:Thanks to those posters who are pointing out TripleThreat's agenda against Mudiay. I am done arguing with him, because you can throw words out like low bball IQ all you want without any specific examples to back that up, doesn't make it right. How exactly is low bball IQ measured, can we get examples of plays where this is on display, otherwise it's just rhetoric.
Every time I watch the Knicks play is another example of Mudiay's low bbiq
Examples please?
You were also one of the posters defending Ron Baker on the Knicks at one time citing his great defense and at least decent IQ.
How's that working out? It needs to be a combination of talent, IQ, IT factor etc

I don't have video editing skills to show these types of plays, if you don't see it, you probably won't.

Baker couldn't make a shot.

I distinctly remember you saying Baker deserves a shot on the team even though he couldn't make a shot simply because of his defensive skills. Mudiay is the opposite. Shows promise on offense and sucks on defense, I am hoping he gets better by the end of the season. He has to know this is kinda his last chance. If he doesn't and Frank shows promise the rest of the way, I am ok with letting Mudiay walk.

But isn't rooting for Frank and Baker while dumping on Mudiay a double standard?

How long to you give a guy to show what he can do? 1-3 yeas? More? Do you give a guy who is just 19 and not fully developed from a physical standpoint a bit more time that a 22 year old who probably wont change much?

Baker was able to shoot the ball in college and was OK from 3pt land, as a baseline lets say he was an OK shooter. Would that transfer to the NBA and especially to the NBA 3pt line? How much time to you give a guy to prove that he can shoot in the NBA? Ron was not a PG in college that was probably going to be his position in the NBA, or at least a combo guy. And if he can't shoot, he's done. Came into the league at 22 and broke his face in the second season and that will derail most anyone, not to mention he wouldn't get minutes behind JJack, Burke, Frank, THJr, Lee, Dot. That's 5 guards who are going to get minutes before him. He couldn't shoot and the Knicks had/have too many other guards. Defensively aware, so how long would it take him to find or prove he can shoot and then also run an offense? At $5M, not long. At the minimum without 5 other guys ahead of him, he could have lasted.

I don't mind the baseline hypothesis of a 3 year window of development for a new player in the NBA to show what he has got, sounds about right. Also take into consideration position changes (SG to PG), physical growth of an 18/19 year old, team/injury situation... and maybe that window opens up a bit.

Things I consider: Is a player adding something to his game every off season? Is he NOT making the same mistake from year to year (and sometimes month to month)? Does the player show you something that may not be consistent this year but is a peak at what he can do or is it a fluke? Are there any major flaws to his game that can never be overcome (Amare and lateral quickness, Melo and the crap for defense, Kanter and his lack of defensive awareness, THJr and his penchant for not getting around picks).

I understand all those examples at the end and the window of opportunity. I think what we disagree on is that his window for improvement has closed. I am actually in agreement that if Mudiay does not improve defensively at all as the season progresses, then yes, probably a super lowball offer is in order, if that.

But it was December when the threads condemning Mudiay this season started, can we at least see what the kid does this season? For the first time this season when he started leading the team, we actually looked like we were an NBA team. And what happened against the 76ers, somehow we magically had 24 assists for the team. Where exactly are you citing examples of Mudiay's low bball IQ? You don't have to do video editing...just tell me between x min mark and y min mark of the 3rd quarter or something like that and I'll find it and review myself.

Nixluva is posting triangle screen grabs, even when nobody asks - Fishmike. LOL So are we going to reference that thread like the bible now? "The thread of Wroten Page 14 post 9" - EnySpree
Cartman718
Posts: 28707
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/12/2007
Member: #1694

1/14/2019  9:16 PM
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:Thanks to those posters who are pointing out TripleThreat's agenda against Mudiay. I am done arguing with him, because you can throw words out like low bball IQ all you want without any specific examples to back that up, doesn't make it right. How exactly is low bball IQ measured, can we get examples of plays where this is on display, otherwise it's just rhetoric.
Every time I watch the Knicks play is another example of Mudiay's low bbiq
Examples please?
You were also one of the posters defending Ron Baker on the Knicks at one time citing his great defense and at least decent IQ.
How's that working out? It needs to be a combination of talent, IQ, IT factor etc

I don't have video editing skills to show these types of plays, if you don't see it, you probably won't.

Baker couldn't make a shot.

I distinctly remember you saying Baker deserves a shot on the team even though he couldn't make a shot simply because of his defensive skills. Mudiay is the opposite. Shows promise on offense and sucks on defense, I am hoping he gets better by the end of the season. He has to know this is kinda his last chance. If he doesn't and Frank shows promise the rest of the way, I am ok with letting Mudiay walk.

But isn't rooting for Frank and Baker while dumping on Mudiay a double standard?

I haven't watched Mudiay before this season. He is a bad defender. He can't make a freakin layup. He makes bad decisions during the game that should have been done with by last year at a minimum.

In 2 years if Frank can't shoot or make a layup, I'll be very down on him.

Now thats judgemental, especially when he's made quite a few, do you want me to pull up videos of him doing this during games? Also like I said in another post...he's shooting 50% from 2 pt range.

Nixluva is posting triangle screen grabs, even when nobody asks - Fishmike. LOL So are we going to reference that thread like the bible now? "The thread of Wroten Page 14 post 9" - EnySpree
meloshouldgo
Posts: 26453
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/3/2014
Member: #5801

1/14/2019  9:18 PM
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:Thanks to those posters who are pointing out TripleThreat's agenda against Mudiay. I am done arguing with him, because you can throw words out like low bball IQ all you want without any specific examples to back that up, doesn't make it right. How exactly is low bball IQ measured, can we get examples of plays where this is on display, otherwise it's just rhetoric.
Every time I watch the Knicks play is another example of Mudiay's low bbiq
Examples please?
You were also one of the posters defending Ron Baker on the Knicks at one time citing his great defense and at least decent IQ.
How's that working out? It needs to be a combination of talent, IQ, IT factor etc

I don't have video editing skills to show these types of plays, if you don't see it, you probably won't.

Baker couldn't make a shot.

I distinctly remember you saying Baker deserves a shot on the team even though he couldn't make a shot simply because of his defensive skills. Mudiay is the opposite. Shows promise on offense and sucks on defense, I am hoping he gets better by the end of the season. He has to know this is kinda his last chance. If he doesn't and Frank shows promise the rest of the way, I am ok with letting Mudiay walk.

But isn't rooting for Frank and Baker while dumping on Mudiay a double standard?

I haven't watched Mudiay before this season. He is a bad defender. He can't make a freakin layup. He makes bad decisions during the game that should have been done with by last year at a minimum.

In 2 years if Frank can't shoot or make a layup, I'll be very down on him.

Yup

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
knicks1248
Posts: 38423
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #582
1/21/2019  12:00 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:Thanks to those posters who are pointing out TripleThreat's agenda against Mudiay. I am done arguing with him, because you can throw words out like low bball IQ all you want without any specific examples to back that up, doesn't make it right. How exactly is low bball IQ measured, can we get examples of plays where this is on display, otherwise it's just rhetoric.
Every time I watch the Knicks play is another example of Mudiay's low bbiq
Examples please?
You were also one of the posters defending Ron Baker on the Knicks at one time citing his great defense and at least decent IQ.
How's that working out? It needs to be a combination of talent, IQ, IT factor etc

I don't have video editing skills to show these types of plays, if you don't see it, you probably won't.

Baker couldn't make a shot.

I distinctly remember you saying Baker deserves a shot on the team even though he couldn't make a shot simply because of his defensive skills. Mudiay is the opposite. Shows promise on offense and sucks on defense, I am hoping he gets better by the end of the season. He has to know this is kinda his last chance. If he doesn't and Frank shows promise the rest of the way, I am ok with letting Mudiay walk.

But isn't rooting for Frank and Baker while dumping on Mudiay a double standard?

I haven't watched Mudiay before this season. He is a bad defender. He can't make a freakin layup. He makes bad decisions during the game that should have been done with by last year at a minimum.

In 2 years if Frank can't shoot or make a layup, I'll be very down on him.

Yup

last year you guys were saying I'll give frank until this season, now your stretching it to 2 more season..

You guys kill me, frank sucks, right along with 90% of the roster, his poor fit, he's playing with a bunch of players that need new contracts, his defense is overrated.

If you real like frank and want him to succeed, you should pray that he gets traded..

listed as as the 2nd worst player in the NBA(from an impact stand point) you guys still want him..

ES
fwk00
Posts: 21056
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/20/2015
Member: #6048

1/21/2019  12:43 PM
TripleThreat wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
My observations are not about the financials however (and, yes, they are important). I'm looking at this "development year" strictly on the basis of the strategy for building a roster. To your last point - "FOUR YEARS of the top pick in the 2nd round" - I would argue that as persuasive as that argument may sound - the historical evidence would suggest that the vast majority of second-rounders never make it anywhere and the ones that do aren't necessarily the topmost picks.

I would still argue that the strategy the FO is experimenting with is plenty risky but still a shade more sensible than throwing darts with second-rounders. And I think they are tempering their risk with the fact that this year's salary cap makes no difference whatsoever.

But as the season progressed even Wally and Alan Hahn began to wonder aloud if the Knicks might be better off signing the players who have done well rather than concentrate exclusively on the star-puck FA signing this summer.

I'm guessing that the Knicks were sincerely on a talent hunt and scored wildly more successfully than anticipated.

Phil Jackson had nothing to do with it - that rabbit hole ain't worth jumping down.


My guess is that the FO would love to see Mudiay succeed. My guess is that he (and Burke, among others) will be moved before the trading deadline. They will likely be replaced by exchanged players, 10 day contracts, or G-League call-ups. Just a hunch. More than a few teams will be looking to shore up their benches for the playoff run.

-snip-
Phil Jackson inherited lots of problems. These are not his fault. He walked into a team with STATs ugly contract, Melo's ball hoggery, Dolan being an idiot, only one first round pick in three years, problems with JR Smith and likely Chandler. Not his fault.

HE MADE MANY OF THOSE PROBLEM WORSE


Trading for Calderon. Giving Thomas, Lee and Noah dumb deal. Trading six years of cost control ( 3 for Grant and 3 for Lopez) for Rose, a guy who was a zero defender, no three point shot, off the court problems, injury problems and a massive salary. PJax set this team back five years in his last season.

Here we disagree. I think Phil did what he could with a very poor hand that was dealt to him. He straddled the dual ambition of attempting to make a player out of Melo by surrounding him with what pros he could and also rebuilding with the other half of the roster.

The Melo half of the strategy failed horribly. And that half haunts our cap today. He trusted veteran players who turned out to be head cases - stuff happens.

The rebuilding part is a qualified success. This new FO can either succeed or F it up. Not on Phil.

TripleThreat wrote:

The team is/was cap locked. Contracts that could not be traded and no one else wanted. There is no shopping for value strategy. Teams like the Knicks shop in the Tier 4 and Tier 5 levels of free agency. If another team in a better situation can offer equal money/equal years, they'll pick that team instead.

The Knicks shop from the retread/journeymen bargain racks because A) The better options don't want to be Knicks and have better options and B) the team can't afford anything else due to a ****ed cap sheet.

The team would like to see Mudiay show anything because they don't have a choice. If they had money to sign someone better, they would. If they had something to trade to get something better , they would. If they had draft assets to take in a guy who had a better chance at upside, they would.

Wally and Hahn are reading from a script ( that's OK, that's their job). They know, and the rest of the league knows that the Knicks have ZERO CHANCE at any of the Tier 1 and Tier 2 free agents. Zero chance. Slim to none with Tier 3 guys.

-snip

This is true

martin
Posts: 48143
Alba Posts: 106
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
USA
1/21/2019  1:00 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:Thanks to those posters who are pointing out TripleThreat's agenda against Mudiay. I am done arguing with him, because you can throw words out like low bball IQ all you want without any specific examples to back that up, doesn't make it right. How exactly is low bball IQ measured, can we get examples of plays where this is on display, otherwise it's just rhetoric.
Every time I watch the Knicks play is another example of Mudiay's low bbiq
Examples please?
You were also one of the posters defending Ron Baker on the Knicks at one time citing his great defense and at least decent IQ.
How's that working out? It needs to be a combination of talent, IQ, IT factor etc

I don't have video editing skills to show these types of plays, if you don't see it, you probably won't.

Baker couldn't make a shot.

I distinctly remember you saying Baker deserves a shot on the team even though he couldn't make a shot simply because of his defensive skills. Mudiay is the opposite. Shows promise on offense and sucks on defense, I am hoping he gets better by the end of the season. He has to know this is kinda his last chance. If he doesn't and Frank shows promise the rest of the way, I am ok with letting Mudiay walk.

But isn't rooting for Frank and Baker while dumping on Mudiay a double standard?

I haven't watched Mudiay before this season. He is a bad defender. He can't make a freakin layup. He makes bad decisions during the game that should have been done with by last year at a minimum.

In 2 years if Frank can't shoot or make a layup, I'll be very down on him.

Yup

last year you guys were saying I'll give frank until this season, now your stretching it to 2 more season..

You guys kill me, frank sucks, right along with 90% of the roster, his poor fit, he's playing with a bunch of players that need new contracts, his defense is overrated.

If you real like frank and want him to succeed, you should pray that he gets traded..

listed as as the 2nd worst player in the NBA(from an impact stand point) you guys still want him..

There is no collective You Guys. If you want to respond to a particular user or post, have at it, but just lumping everyone into a made up opinion just doesn't fly

Official sponsor of the PURE KNICKS LOVE Program
arkrud
Posts: 31517
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/31/2005
Member: #995
USA
1/22/2019  10:26 AM    LAST EDITED: 1/22/2019  10:29 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:Thanks to those posters who are pointing out TripleThreat's agenda against Mudiay. I am done arguing with him, because you can throw words out like low bball IQ all you want without any specific examples to back that up, doesn't make it right. How exactly is low bball IQ measured, can we get examples of plays where this is on display, otherwise it's just rhetoric.
Every time I watch the Knicks play is another example of Mudiay's low bbiq
Examples please?
You were also one of the posters defending Ron Baker on the Knicks at one time citing his great defense and at least decent IQ.
How's that working out? It needs to be a combination of talent, IQ, IT factor etc

I don't have video editing skills to show these types of plays, if you don't see it, you probably won't.

Baker couldn't make a shot.

I distinctly remember you saying Baker deserves a shot on the team even though he couldn't make a shot simply because of his defensive skills. Mudiay is the opposite. Shows promise on offense and sucks on defense, I am hoping he gets better by the end of the season. He has to know this is kinda his last chance. If he doesn't and Frank shows promise the rest of the way, I am ok with letting Mudiay walk.

But isn't rooting for Frank and Baker while dumping on Mudiay a double standard?

I haven't watched Mudiay before this season. He is a bad defender. He can't make a freakin layup. He makes bad decisions during the game that should have been done with by last year at a minimum.

In 2 years if Frank can't shoot or make a layup, I'll be very down on him.

Yup

last year you guys were saying I'll give frank until this season, now your stretching it to 2 more season..

You guys kill me, frank sucks, right along with 90% of the roster, his poor fit, he's playing with a bunch of players that need new contracts, his defense is overrated.

If you real like frank and want him to succeed, you should pray that he gets traded..

listed as as the 2nd worst player in the NBA(from an impact stand point) you guys still want him..

19 year rookie usually need 4 years in NBA to start coming into what he can be.
This is why the contractual structure in NBA is what it is.
If player coming from 4 years of college the window is shorter.
But 2-3 years is still required to discover if player has potential and what is his market value.
My final verdict on Frank will be ready not earlier that the end of 2020/21 season.
There are a ton of stars who took more that 4 years to develop not talking about decent rotation players.
And for some even longer.
Frank is the last thing to be concern of on this Knicks team.
He is very simple and clear case.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
knicks1248
Posts: 38423
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #582
1/22/2019  10:43 AM
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:Thanks to those posters who are pointing out TripleThreat's agenda against Mudiay. I am done arguing with him, because you can throw words out like low bball IQ all you want without any specific examples to back that up, doesn't make it right. How exactly is low bball IQ measured, can we get examples of plays where this is on display, otherwise it's just rhetoric.
Every time I watch the Knicks play is another example of Mudiay's low bbiq
Examples please?
You were also one of the posters defending Ron Baker on the Knicks at one time citing his great defense and at least decent IQ.
How's that working out? It needs to be a combination of talent, IQ, IT factor etc

I don't have video editing skills to show these types of plays, if you don't see it, you probably won't.

Baker couldn't make a shot.

I distinctly remember you saying Baker deserves a shot on the team even though he couldn't make a shot simply because of his defensive skills. Mudiay is the opposite. Shows promise on offense and sucks on defense, I am hoping he gets better by the end of the season. He has to know this is kinda his last chance. If he doesn't and Frank shows promise the rest of the way, I am ok with letting Mudiay walk.

But isn't rooting for Frank and Baker while dumping on Mudiay a double standard?

I haven't watched Mudiay before this season. He is a bad defender. He can't make a freakin layup. He makes bad decisions during the game that should have been done with by last year at a minimum.

In 2 years if Frank can't shoot or make a layup, I'll be very down on him.

Yup

last year you guys were saying I'll give frank until this season, now your stretching it to 2 more season..

You guys kill me, frank sucks, right along with 90% of the roster, his poor fit, he's playing with a bunch of players that need new contracts, his defense is overrated.

If you real like frank and want him to succeed, you should pray that he gets traded..

listed as as the 2nd worst player in the NBA(from an impact stand point) you guys still want him..

19 year rookie usually need 4 years in NBA to start coming into what he can be.
This is why the contractual structure in NBA is what it is.
If player coming from 4 years of college the window is shorter.
But 2-3 years is still required to discover if player has potential and what is his market value.
My final verdict on Frank will be ready not earlier that the end of 2020/21 season.
There are a ton of stars who took more that 4 years to develop not talking about decent rotation players.
And for some even longer.
Frank is the last thing to be concern of on this Knicks team.
He is very simple and clear case.

Most good teams need a player or 2 like frank,he's a glue guy (like I've been saying since day 1).

The problem is, you have so many holes in your roster that his impact(for that type of role) is pointless..

ES
Nalod
Posts: 56950
Alba Posts: 151
Joined: 12/24/2003
Member: #508
USA
1/22/2019  12:52 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:Thanks to those posters who are pointing out TripleThreat's agenda against Mudiay. I am done arguing with him, because you can throw words out like low bball IQ all you want without any specific examples to back that up, doesn't make it right. How exactly is low bball IQ measured, can we get examples of plays where this is on display, otherwise it's just rhetoric.
Every time I watch the Knicks play is another example of Mudiay's low bbiq
Examples please?
You were also one of the posters defending Ron Baker on the Knicks at one time citing his great defense and at least decent IQ.
How's that working out? It needs to be a combination of talent, IQ, IT factor etc

I don't have video editing skills to show these types of plays, if you don't see it, you probably won't.

Baker couldn't make a shot.

I distinctly remember you saying Baker deserves a shot on the team even though he couldn't make a shot simply because of his defensive skills. Mudiay is the opposite. Shows promise on offense and sucks on defense, I am hoping he gets better by the end of the season. He has to know this is kinda his last chance. If he doesn't and Frank shows promise the rest of the way, I am ok with letting Mudiay walk.

But isn't rooting for Frank and Baker while dumping on Mudiay a double standard?

I haven't watched Mudiay before this season. He is a bad defender. He can't make a freakin layup. He makes bad decisions during the game that should have been done with by last year at a minimum.

In 2 years if Frank can't shoot or make a layup, I'll be very down on him.

Yup

last year you guys were saying I'll give frank until this season, now your stretching it to 2 more season..

You guys kill me, frank sucks, right along with 90% of the roster, his poor fit, he's playing with a bunch of players that need new contracts, his defense is overrated.

If you real like frank and want him to succeed, you should pray that he gets traded..

listed as as the 2nd worst player in the NBA(from an impact stand point) you guys still want him..

19 year rookie usually need 4 years in NBA to start coming into what he can be.
This is why the contractual structure in NBA is what it is.
If player coming from 4 years of college the window is shorter.
But 2-3 years is still required to discover if player has potential and what is his market value.
My final verdict on Frank will be ready not earlier that the end of 2020/21 season.
There are a ton of stars who took more that 4 years to develop not talking about decent rotation players.
And for some even longer.
Frank is the last thing to be concern of on this Knicks team.
He is very simple and clear case.

Most good teams need a player or 2 like frank,he's a glue guy (like I've been saying since day 1).

The problem is, you have so many holes in your roster that his impact(for that type of role) is pointless..

if your expecting an impact from a glue guy than I can see your point.
Its kind of shortsighted.

You don't show a fool a job half done!
arkrud
Posts: 31517
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/31/2005
Member: #995
USA
1/22/2019  3:50 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/22/2019  3:50 PM
Nalod wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:
martin wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:Thanks to those posters who are pointing out TripleThreat's agenda against Mudiay. I am done arguing with him, because you can throw words out like low bball IQ all you want without any specific examples to back that up, doesn't make it right. How exactly is low bball IQ measured, can we get examples of plays where this is on display, otherwise it's just rhetoric.
Every time I watch the Knicks play is another example of Mudiay's low bbiq
Examples please?
You were also one of the posters defending Ron Baker on the Knicks at one time citing his great defense and at least decent IQ.
How's that working out? It needs to be a combination of talent, IQ, IT factor etc

I don't have video editing skills to show these types of plays, if you don't see it, you probably won't.

Baker couldn't make a shot.

I distinctly remember you saying Baker deserves a shot on the team even though he couldn't make a shot simply because of his defensive skills. Mudiay is the opposite. Shows promise on offense and sucks on defense, I am hoping he gets better by the end of the season. He has to know this is kinda his last chance. If he doesn't and Frank shows promise the rest of the way, I am ok with letting Mudiay walk.

But isn't rooting for Frank and Baker while dumping on Mudiay a double standard?

I haven't watched Mudiay before this season. He is a bad defender. He can't make a freakin layup. He makes bad decisions during the game that should have been done with by last year at a minimum.

In 2 years if Frank can't shoot or make a layup, I'll be very down on him.

Yup

last year you guys were saying I'll give frank until this season, now your stretching it to 2 more season..

You guys kill me, frank sucks, right along with 90% of the roster, his poor fit, he's playing with a bunch of players that need new contracts, his defense is overrated.

If you real like frank and want him to succeed, you should pray that he gets traded..

listed as as the 2nd worst player in the NBA(from an impact stand point) you guys still want him..

19 year rookie usually need 4 years in NBA to start coming into what he can be.
This is why the contractual structure in NBA is what it is.
If player coming from 4 years of college the window is shorter.
But 2-3 years is still required to discover if player has potential and what is his market value.
My final verdict on Frank will be ready not earlier that the end of 2020/21 season.
There are a ton of stars who took more that 4 years to develop not talking about decent rotation players.
And for some even longer.
Frank is the last thing to be concern of on this Knicks team.
He is very simple and clear case.

Most good teams need a player or 2 like frank,he's a glue guy (like I've been saying since day 1).

The problem is, you have so many holes in your roster that his impact(for that type of role) is pointless..

if your expecting an impact from a glue guy than I can see your point.
Its kind of shortsighted.

So if you

you have so many holes in your roster
its OK to make more holes by getting read of "glue" guys...
So it will be no glue between holes?
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Bondy: High number of players w/expiring contracts has negatively affected ball movement (Fiz quote in his tweet)

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