Kanter has never passed. Burke is a gunner. Hezonja is a willing passer but they're often attempts at highlight real (i.e., mostly dumb)

I do not think the criticism applies to Vonleh.

it's as much an indictment on the FO as it is on his holding players accountable. FO knew these guys are contract guys. Indeed if any rehabilitated their careers are reward would be a bigger contract demand. If they had any confidence in their ability to get Mudiay or anyone else "right" they should have done some form of contract extension to lock in a lower price for their taking on the risk. As it stands now, they'll be lucky to get Xmas cards from these guys if they get contract at end of season

also a bit hypocritical of Fizz when he was benching Frank for not gunning enough.

they have to get some winning ways established. I read an article the other day (SI?) where they were saying the current Knicks defense is near the historically worst in points per possession. Think about that. We have been in many blow outs where teams are more interested in milking clock at end than getting more points. We are near the bottom -- as far back as these stats have been kept

So much for accountability on defense and passing

Jmpasq wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:aint nobody trolling you meloshouldgo...if anything you are trolling with the Mudiay hate. For the posters talking about no ball movement with Mudiay, please provide evidence. He is bad on D, not Kanter or Burke terrible, but still bad.

In today's league, you don't need just your PG to be a ball mover, look at Fiz's comments, he's talking about team ball movement. If Mudiay was unable to find teammates, he wouldn't be averaging almost 6 assists per game in December.
And by the way, this is with playing with players who do not cut hard.

Players that cut hard or play PNR well in the half court: WholeTeamDot, Hezonja (but so many other bad plays that he doesn't get much playing time), Mitch...that's about it.

Kanter and Vonleh...average at best in that regard, how many times have they been called for moving fouls?
THJr...certified ball hog
Frank and Knox...nope they like to camp out at the arc
Trier... ball hog who I have more confidence in than THJr at least
Kornet...camp out at arc to blaze those 3s but at least he makes them at a good clip when Mudiay finds him

When Mitch comes back, the PNR play should improve even further between him and Mudiay.

If we don't sign a marquee FA, I am ok with Mudiay coming back because his weakness is PNR defense. But with Mitch and KP in the post...this should not be a huge concern.

The upside on offense with him finding teammates at a good clip (albeit some of them can't finish properly) is something that will show up even better next year.

Bring back at what cost? 1 year deals are fine but I'm not proclaiming him as our PG for the next 3-4 years

I'd be fine with a shumpert like contract that the cavs gave him...which was 4 yrs 40 mill, not sure how much guaranteed.

He needs us more than we need him. The Knicks could simply say, ok we are going in another direction and wait evena few years more and draft a PG with our first pick.

Where would he go, China? Don't think so. I think we might even be able to get away with 8 mill for 2 yrs or 3 yrs.

Cartman718 wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:You are splitting hairs with Mudiay. It's a bull**** way to look at actual personnel because it's looking for specific things to counter/exaggerate/ignore to avoid looking at the overall career arc/skills of a player.

i never said he's an all star PG, but we don't need an all star PG, we did go to the NBA finals with 2 simply serviceable PGs in Chris Childs and Charlie Ward, they're not going to the hall of fame anytime soon.

Last year without Kyrie Irving and Gordon Hayward, the Celtics took Lebron's Cavs to 7 games.

Overall career??? Dude is 22 years old!!
Overall arc/skills, I'd say this year has been his best compared to the previous years, no?

TripleThreat wrote:
Has Mudiay shown to be able to hit a consistent three point shot at least to league average rates of success for non pivots across his entire career?

No

Entire career, no. This year, under the right tutelage, yes.

TripleThreat wrote:
Has Mudiay shown to be able to consistently play defense at least to league average rates of success for non pivots across his entire career?

No

Steph and Kyrie don't play league average D, they're stellar on offense though. I'd say before the end of the season, I would see his D getting better. He's just playing with that much confidence.

TripleThreat wrote:Has Mudiay shown to be able to consistently maintain elite physical conditioning at least to league average rates of success for non pivots across his entire career?

No

Yes this is a knock on him, maybe playing time in Denver had something to do with it, maybe depression that came from that. But I remarked even during the "meet the press" in the summer for the team that Mudiay looked very much in shape. So he came prepared with a fresh start in mind. I'd say in the "what have you done for me lately" league, he would be ok to sign to a reasonable contract.

TripleThreat wrote:
Has Mudiay shown to be able to consistently make good decisions as the primary ball handler tasked to run an efficient NBA offense at least to league average rates of success for non pivots across his entire career?

No

Didn't really watch him much in denver but in NYC this season, yes absolutely he has. If you cant see that, you are the one that's bull****ting

TripleThreat wrote:I worded things to stop your bull**** loopholing.
Mudiay offers no 3 And D value in a league that covets/requires it. Can a guard survive without 3 and D value? As a starter, sure, an "Attack Guard", a guy who can penetrate and get to AND FINISH at the rim to such a high rate, it opens up the rest of the offense. But those guards need to be able to drive and kick, which means some actual good decision making is needed.

If anything since after his multi-game 30 point tear, he has tried to do more of the run the offense, his stats are evidence of that. If you dont see him drive and kick during games, you are blind.

TripleThreat wrote:When you can't do certain things ( hit a three point shot, play defense), you need to offset with something of value that's borderline extreme. In MLB, Ozzie Smith was sort of fast and found a way to hit just enough, but what carried him was his all world defense. But he had to be a defender on an entirely different level to make up for his bat. It can happen, it rarely happens. Nothing Mudiay shows offsets the **** defense and lack of a three point shot.

It's been a solid month for him. Good for him. Good for the team. But it's not going to negate his entire career arc. You'll eventually point out how hard he's pushing. Yes, to get a new contract. But what about the rest of his career when he was clearly not giving much of a ****. I said the same thing about Kanter last year. People said, look how hard he's pushing. Yeah, to get a new contract. And when he's not getting one, or what he wants, what's going to happen? Well, what happened? He's sulking and showing the Fuck All Of You Then bull**** he pulled in Utah and OKC.

What is he going to give you when he only can play 10-12 minutes. When he only gets 6 shot attempts. When his shot isn't falling. When he's not allowed to be ball dominant. You are looking at a players value only through volume. Without context to role and efficiency.

No one hates Mudiay. They would however like him better as a Knick if he could play some defense and hit a ****ing three point shot consistently ( feel free to not sample size the last month as if it shapes his entire career narrative, but my guess is you'll keep loopholing this and do it anyway)

A lot of three point shooting, defense and fitness just comes from attrition and hard work. So what does that say about Mudiay?

Yes, we hate him because he won't put down the fries, won't pick up a kettlebell and won't work on his three point shot relentlessly.

Mudiay gave a half hearted blowjob, in exchange you think he deserves an engagement ring. Well, I can see why you defend him, both of your decision making skills seem very aligned.

I am not signing him for more than 10 million per year. At 8-9-10 mill, for a multiyear contract, it's a very tradeable contract and the upside is huge.

Do you even know what he's been shooting this year or are just making **** up out of your ass? His shooting is 45% of the season. 3 point shooting less than optimal yes, but overall his shooting percentage is the last of his problems. 45% is middle of the pack in the league. 14th to be exact and from 2 point range his shooting is 50%.

How often does he get open 3 point shots. If you are watching games, you'd see he's making them.

Good post

meloshouldgo wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/SBondyNYDN/status/1081389433352409088

Wow can't believe he said it, Its obvious but still. Its amazing to me how many Knick fans have fallen for Mudiays empty stats. Mudiay sucks, he is not a starter on a good team we should not resign him unles its very favorable. Last thing I want to see is some stupid 4 year 40 million dollar deal

I am actively trolled by 3-4 people on this board for saying this. The guy is exactly the wrong type of player for the Knicks. Mudiay signing is a mini Melo fiasco waiting to happen. He is atrocious on defense, the article by knicks film school on why Kornet couldn't help the defense much last game as a starter, shows 4-5 sequences where Mudiay gets beat or doesn't help. Apparently he had an "all star" December without playing a lick of defense. Empty stat worshippers want you to appreciate no defense chuckers, otherwise you are a hater. God save us from signing this stat padder.

It's unanimous. Mudiay has learned all he can here, and now must ply his trade with another franchise. Goodbye Mudman. We desperately need a guard for next season.

TripleThreat wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:
Has Mudiay shown to be able to hit a consistent three point shot at least to league average rates of success for non pivots across his entire career?

Entire career, no. This year, under the right tutelage, yes.

Has Mudiay shown to be able to consistently play defense at least to league average rates of success for non pivots across his entire career?

Steph and Kyrie don't play league average D, they're stellar on offense though. I'd say before the end of the season, I would see his D getting better. He's just playing with that much confidence.

Has Mudiay shown to be able to consistently maintain elite physical conditioning at least to league average rates of success for non pivots across his entire career?

Yes this is a knock on him, maybe playing time in Denver had something to do with it, maybe depression that came from that. But I remarked even during the "meet the press" in the summer for the team that Mudiay looked very much in shape. So he came prepared with a fresh start in mind. I'd say in the "what have you done for me lately" league, he would be ok to sign to a reasonable contract.

Has Mudiay shown to be able to consistently make good decisions as the primary ball handler tasked to run an efficient NBA offense at least to league average rates of success for non pivots across his entire career?

Didn't really watch him much in denver but in NYC this season, yes absolutely he has. If you cant see that, you are the one that's bull****ting

I am not signing him for more than 10 million per year. At 8-9-10 mill, for a multiyear contract, it's a very tradeable contract and the upside is huge.

For every legitimate question about Mudiay's skill set and work ethic, all you have are excuses.

You are free to your opinion on Mudiay. I challenge basketball viewpoints, I don't challenge people's right to their views. That being said, if you tried to talk like this in an actual NBA front office, they'd fire you. They'd throw you out of the building.

You just admitted you didn't watch him in Denver. So you are basing this on what? One solid month of play with the Knicks? Solid being a relative description.

You want to bet a 2/16 to 4/40 ( that's your range, not mine) long term on a guy who shows no discipline with fitness, doesn't hit a league average three point shot and is a **** defender who is low BBIQ. He's trying hard because he wants a new contract and wants to stay in the league. What happens when/if he gets a long term deal?

Who wants to trade for a **** defender, low BBI, can't hit a three point shot depressed guy who won't pick up a kettlebell at 4/40?

So apparently, to some here, it means being a "hater" because they don't want the above as a millstone around this team's cap sheet?

who is our PG next year?

In Mudiay, I see a young player who MIGHT be getting it. And in the NBA, players get paid a lot on potential - I'm not saying that is a good thing.

But, we have to build some consistency. Mudiay is probably never going to be an all star. But can he play a role on our team next year and for the next 3-4? Yes.

Can he be upgraded? Absolutely.

Do you know who our PG is next year? Where exactly are we getting him from?

Because we have a ton of questions with this roster, and you can't just turn the roster over every year. You have to pick your battles, and we have to start building - which means keeping some players.

TripleThreat wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:
Has Mudiay shown to be able to hit a consistent three point shot at least to league average rates of success for non pivots across his entire career?

Entire career, no. This year, under the right tutelage, yes.

Has Mudiay shown to be able to consistently play defense at least to league average rates of success for non pivots across his entire career?

Steph and Kyrie don't play league average D, they're stellar on offense though. I'd say before the end of the season, I would see his D getting better. He's just playing with that much confidence.

Has Mudiay shown to be able to consistently maintain elite physical conditioning at least to league average rates of success for non pivots across his entire career?

Yes this is a knock on him, maybe playing time in Denver had something to do with it, maybe depression that came from that. But I remarked even during the "meet the press" in the summer for the team that Mudiay looked very much in shape. So he came prepared with a fresh start in mind. I'd say in the "what have you done for me lately" league, he would be ok to sign to a reasonable contract.

Has Mudiay shown to be able to consistently make good decisions as the primary ball handler tasked to run an efficient NBA offense at least to league average rates of success for non pivots across his entire career?

Didn't really watch him much in denver but in NYC this season, yes absolutely he has. If you cant see that, you are the one that's bull****ting

I am not signing him for more than 10 million per year. At 8-9-10 mill, for a multiyear contract, it's a very tradeable contract and the upside is huge.

For every legitimate question about Mudiay's skill set and work ethic, all you have are excuses.

You are free to your opinion on Mudiay. I challenge basketball viewpoints, I don't challenge people's right to their views. That being said, if you tried to talk like this in an actual NBA front office, they'd fire you. They'd throw you out of the building.

You just admitted you didn't watch him in Denver. So you are basing this on what? One solid month of play with the Knicks? Solid being a relative description.

You want to bet a 2/16 to 4/40 ( that's your range, not mine) long term on a guy who shows no discipline with fitness, doesn't hit a league average three point shot and is a **** defender who is low BBIQ. He's trying hard because he wants a new contract and wants to stay in the league. What happens when/if he gets a long term deal?

Who wants to trade for a **** defender, low BBI, can't hit a three point shot depressed guy who won't pick up a kettlebell at 4/40?

So apparently, to some here, it means being a "hater" because they don't want the above as a millstone around this team's cap sheet?

Do you know who gets paid 8 to 10 mill per year these days??? jeremy lin is getting paid $12 per. iman shumpert go that deal 3 years ago.
dougie mcbuckets who doesn't do ANYTHING BUT SHOOT gets paid 7.3 mill per year, multi year deal signed this past summer I believe.

You are the one coming up with excuses to discredit his work. I am basing it on what I have seen him in NYC yes, but its not like he didn't have good games in Denver.
Shit defender, sometimes. Average, sometimes.
Low BBIQ, do you just make up this ****...where do you get that from?
Cant hit a 3 point shot...you know who else doesn't do that who's a young player that everyone raves about on this forum.
donovan mitchell.
Who gives a **** about what his 3p% is when his 2p% is over 50%.
Millstone around this team's cap sheet...exaggerate much? 2/16 4/40 is hardly a millstone. contracts like that get traded every month in the NBA.
If you cannot back up your stupid comments with actual numbers, go sit in some corner and shut up or put me on ignore lol

Cartman718 wrote:

TPercy wrote:On this subject: We are dead last in the league in assists.

Now THAT I will agree with. We have 3 ball passing PG/SG/SF.
Frank, Dot, Mudiay.

Everyone else in those 3 positions chucks it up a lot instead of trying to find an open teammate.
Knox I will give a pass as a 19 year old trying to understand his role etc

Burke, THJr, Trier, Hezonja, Lee, they all dont really pass the ball well.

Frank is a ball mover, currently out of rotation due to injury and terrible aggression on offense
Dot same thing
Mudiay finds you when you are open every game.
Kanter...doens't know how to pass
Kornet and Mitch and Vonleh...ball movers when they are around the arc. Kornet shoots at a decent clip too

If we played only Frank, Dot, Mudiay, Knox, Kornet, Mitch, Vonleh every game, we'd be far from dead last.
But no, we have THJr averaging 33 mins a game to justify his contract. Everyone else is less than 27 mins.
That one black hole can kill a team's ball movement over a period of time.

You seem to have gone off the deep end on Mudiay. You are starting to sound like the trolls. Kanter is averaging 2.0 Assists a game, Mudiay is averaging 4. One is a backup center the other is a starting POINT guard, You do the math.

Kanter has excellent chemistry with Hezonja, Mudiay couldn't spell "chemistry" if his life depended on it. You keep going from thread to thread making excuses for this scrub and you accuse other people of agenda when they disagree. I really thought you were a better poster. But you are definitely entitled to your opinion.

Cartman718 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:You seem to have gone off the deep end on Mudiay. You are starting to sound like the trolls. Kanter is averaging 2.0 Assists a game, Mudiay is averaging 4. One is a backup center the other is a starting POINT guard, You do the math.

Kanter has excellent chemistry with Hezonja, Mudiay couldn't spell "chemistry" if his life depended on it. You keep going from thread to thread making excuses for this scrub and you accuse other people of agenda when they disagree. I really thought you were a better poster. But you are definitely entitled to your opinion.

Kanter has 2 assists a game sure, but he goes one on one a lot even when he is like triple teamed. Thats what I mean when I say doesn't know how to pass, why try to go one on 3 or one on 2.

As far as Mudiay's 4 assists a game, how many times has he passed the ball to an open teammate and they just bricked it. Lets look at GSW the champs...do you think Curry is the only one on the team finding open teammates? Steph Curry is 3rd on his own team in assists per game behind Draymond and Durant. Why don't you question why THAT is happening. As a starter, he's averaging 4.5 assists per game this season in 7 more mins per game than Mudiay.

So let's all start talking **** about Steph now? SMH

The problem isn't that Mudiay is not a passer or not a ball mover. The problem is that the majority of the players on the floor with him are not.

So Mudiay could average more assists per game, sure. Why isn't anyone else coming even close to 4? Because of 2 reasons:
a. We don't really shoot the 3 ball much.
b. We don't really shoot the ball well at all consistently as a team.
c. We don't really look for open teammates...ss a team.

Steph makes 5 threes a game at 45% and his 2 point shooting is a shade over 48%, which is amazing.
Klay 2.7 a game. KD 1.8 a game
Do you know our stats at all??
Timmmy is the leader at 2.6 a game. Think about that...he averages less than 3 threes per game!! How many have you seen him take? Our team leader in 3s made shoots it at around 35%
Kornet at 1.6 3s a game and Vonleh at 1.5 3s a game.

So where are our shooters? The people who shoot 3s the best Kornet and Vonleh dont attempt as many as they should. How many times have you seen them hesitate or pass the ball from the arc even though they were open?

Dont blame the passing woes on Mudiay...it's a team sport. Other than Frank and WholeTeamDot, I dont see anyone supporting Mudiay in the ball movement from the guards. If Mudiay finds you open and you brick it, that's now Mudiay's fault for not getting an assist??? Yep great logic.

Your statement "Kanter has excellent chemistry with Hezonja, Mudiay couldn't spell "chemistry" if his life depended on it" ....Now THAT is classic trolling. Great chemistry with Hezonja means what exactly. Outside of those couple of passes that Hezonja catches from Kanter, what exactly is he doing on the court? I would say last 2-3 games, he's shown a bit more, but what before that?

You do have an agenda, because you keep pointing out a problem with Mudiay that isn't there. Back your statements up with facts and stats not just vague opinions.

You compare Mudiay to Steoh Curry, and I have an agenda. Got it. Glad we cleared that up. Because you have provided facts!

Knixkik wrote:

TPercy wrote:On this subject: We are dead last in the league in assists.

Yeah i think Rubio or Morant would help solve this problem. We need playmakers for sure.

it's not going to be fixed by a pg. that will add maybe 3 assists per game. We need a system of unselfish ball movement and cutting. The Bucks have a remarlably simple offense and a lot of guys are taking wide open shots as a result.

meloshouldgo wrote:
You compare Mudiay to Steph Curry, and I have an agenda. Got it. Glad we cleared that up. Because you have provided facts!

Did not compare Mudiay to Steph Curry in entirety, but the idea that you were presenting...his assist numbers or his lack of D.
We obviously disagree on the eye test.

So present your case with numbers instead of rhetoric.
Otherwise pls change your screen name to TrollBoy. lol