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Inside Dish: The Knicks need Houston to thrive
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MaTT4281
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9/20/2004  7:08 PM
Houston alone can not lead this team too far, even though he tried like hell to do so. But you seem to forget he doesn't have to lead us anymore. He finally has a decent amount of help from Marbury, Crawford, TT, and hopefully Sweetney will help too.

But the whole contract issue in this thread is bugging me. Allan does not have an all around game, he is a shooter and a scorer, not much else. It is unfortunate we had to offer him that huge contract, but you're treating it like he should base his game around that contract, when in reality it's the other way around.
The offseason is wearing us down, and I expect many people to appreciate Allan's game much more next season when he returns.



On an offnote, the picture of Allan in cornrows is pricelice.

[Edited by - MaTT4281 on 09/20/2004 19:09:34]
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Bonn1997
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9/20/2004  7:30 PM
What exactly does he work HARD on other than his jumpshot?
None of us watch him work out. None of us--not even you Silverfuel--know what aspects of his game he works hard on and what aspects he doesn't. You can work extremely hard on certain areas without getting results if the natural ability isn't there. You can make assumptions about how hard a player's working unless you actually *see* how hard they're working
teslawlo
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9/20/2004  7:36 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
What exactly does he work HARD on other than his jumpshot?
None of us watch him work out. None of us--not even you Silverfuel--know what aspects of his game he works hard on and what aspects he doesn't. You can work extremely hard on certain areas without getting results if the natural ability isn't there. You can make assumptions about how hard a player's working unless you actually *see* how hard they're working
Exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself. Houston is one of the hardest workers in the game, a coach's son and truly THE team player. I can bet you he has worked hard on the weak aspects of his game. Some things just don't happen.
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Silverfuel
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9/20/2004  9:36 PM
Are you guys basically saying that no matter how hard he tries he cannot get better? This stuff sounds like most of the posters are just giving him a pass. Yea he is slow footed and not a good ball handler!! He should work on it! Just like he should try and rebound and I will say this about every player!

Cause from now, if a player doesn't do well, from what most of you are saying, we cannot rant about him! So then should we get off Shandon Andersons back? No one is around at practices! Do we know how hard he works? No we dont. He is just another one of Layden's mistake like Houston! He is not a great ball handler, its not his fault he got the contract and we dont know if we works hard or not. Maybe he works harder than Houston and KT!

What if Nazr plays bad defense, should we not say he should work harder on defense like we have in other threads? Why is Houston any different? Not everyone is like Ray Allen! Maybe we should stop making a fuss about Howard Eisley holding onto the ball for too long. Or maybe you guys should stop blaming Layden. He did not have the talent to be GM. It wasn't Layden's fault that he had the GM's job, it was all Dolan's fault!

[Edited by - Silverfuel on 09/20/2004 21:38:22]
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
MaTT4281
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9/20/2004  9:59 PM
Posted by Silverfuel:

Are you guys basically saying that no matter how hard he tries he cannot get better?

Where do you come up with that? The posts I've been reading here are saying that Houston has been working hard, and he has been getting beeter.
Either way, Houston is 33, and his best years are behind him. Right now, him getting better is just him getting healthy.
Ira
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9/21/2004  5:20 AM
There's nothing anyone can do about Houston's contract. It is too big, but it is what it is. Houston had an off year last season because he was playing hurt. The season before, he had a very good year - he carried the team. We don't need him to carry the team now, just to help take the scoring burden off Stephon. He's more than adequate to do that.
Silverfuel
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9/21/2004  8:22 AM
Posted by MaTT4281:

Where do you come up with that? The posts I've been reading here are saying that Houston has been working hard, and he has been getting beeter.
I did not see a single post that said Houston improved his game in any way other than jump shooting. Most of the posts just said that his game is jump shooting and nothing else and that he has been TRYing to do other things but lacks the naturual ability. The posters have been saying that we cannot expect more from Houston just because his contract. That to me sounds like they are saying, he cannot get better in any other category because he is slow footed and not talented naturally.
Either way, Houston is 33, and his best years are behind him. Right now, him getting better is just him getting healthy.
I was waiting for Houston to carry us to something other than 2 years of no playoffs. Its not like I dont have any loyalty to him. I rant about him because I care about my team! And I thank god that Houston does not have to carry this team anymore because Stephon will carry us to more than just first round exit. It was a huge mistake to play Sprewell against bigger SF's because it took away from his game but thats in the past. Houston should've and could've improved his numbers in other categories like he promised after 1999.

Brent Barry was not a rebounder or assist man but starting 2001-2202 he is getting over 5 in both categories. You can improve your assists and rebounding! Is there a point in time where Houston could've improved those numbers?

Houston is not a good player, he is a good jump shooter.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
Bonn1997
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9/21/2004  8:42 AM
Most of the posts just said that his game is jump shooting and nothing else and that he has been TRYing to do other things but lacks the naturual ability.
Let me try this again. We weren't claiming that he IS working hard but simply lacks the ability. What we were claiming is that we do not know whether he is or is not working hard at being more well-rounded. There is a difference. You're the one here claiming to *know* how hard he's worked on becoming more well-rounded (by claiming to know that he isn't working hard).
Silverfuel
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9/21/2004  8:43 AM
Posted by Ira:

There's nothing anyone can do about Houston's contract. It is too big, but it is what it is. Houston had an off year last season because he was playing hurt. The season before, he had a very good year - he carried the team. We don't need him to carry the team now, just to help take the scoring burden off Stephon. He's more than adequate to do that.
You are right, there is nothing anyone can do about the contract but isn't there something he can do about his game? It's too bad he is old because he would fit perfectly as the 3rd option being the jump shooting specialist that he is.

Hopefully Zeke gets us a low post soon and Steph, Craw and TT can play with that Low Post threat.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
Silverfuel
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9/21/2004  8:46 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Most of the posts just said that his game is jump shooting and nothing else and that he has been TRYing to do other things but lacks the naturual ability.
Let me try this again. We weren't claiming that he IS working hard but simply lacks the ability. What we were claiming is that we do not know whether he is or is not working hard at being more well-rounded. There is a difference. You're the one here claiming to *know* how hard he's worked on becoming more well-rounded (by claiming to know that he isn't working hard).
I am not claiming to know anything and stop getting away from the point. All I am saying is that he is not doing anything else on the floor other than jump shooting. He should be doing other things since he is a premier player.

Or are you saying he is not a premier player? Because if you are saying he is not a premier player in the league you are saying waht I am saying. Since he only jumpshoots, he is no better than a 3rd option in a good offense.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
Bonn1997
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9/21/2004  9:23 AM
Posted by Silverfuel:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Most of the posts just said that his game is jump shooting and nothing else and that he has been TRYing to do other things but lacks the naturual ability.
Let me try this again. We weren't claiming that he IS working hard but simply lacks the ability. What we were claiming is that we do not know whether he is or is not working hard at being more well-rounded. There is a difference. You're the one here claiming to *know* how hard he's worked on becoming more well-rounded (by claiming to know that he isn't working hard).
I am not claiming to know anything.
Okay; I didn't realize that you were open to the possibility (rather than knowing that the scenario wasn't possible) that he might be working extremely hard in the offseason (just without success on the court) to become a more well-rounded player.
joec32033
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9/21/2004  9:33 AM
Posted by Silverfuel:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Most of the posts just said that his game is jump shooting and nothing else and that he has been TRYing to do other things but lacks the naturual ability.
Let me try this again. We weren't claiming that he IS working hard but simply lacks the ability. What we were claiming is that we do not know whether he is or is not working hard at being more well-rounded. There is a difference. You're the one here claiming to *know* how hard he's worked on becoming more well-rounded (by claiming to know that he isn't working hard).
I am not claiming to know anything and stop getting away from the point. All I am saying is that he is not doing anything else on the floor other than jump shooting. He should be doing other things since he is a premier player.

Or are you saying he is not a premier player? Because if you are saying he is not a premier player in the league you are saying waht I am saying. Since he only jumpshoots, he is no better than a 3rd option in a good offense.

Premier players in my book are Iverson, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, McGrady, Garnett, maybe Carter on a really good day...As I said before, Allan's job was to be a jumpshooter...In 1999 he was arguably one of the top 5 SG's in the league, because JVG gave him different options....posting up, short jumpers from the elbow, 3 from the corner...The main point here is that this is what the coaches wanted him to do and he did it...under JVG Allan went from a bad defender to an average defender...his last two coaches (Chaney, WIlkins, and Herb Williams-fo-a-day) are not defensive coaches...they just don't teach it. Every player has weaknesses and Allan's is defense and being to passive....it's just part of him as a player..
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Silverfuel
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9/21/2004  10:24 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Silverfuel:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Most of the posts just said that his game is jump shooting and nothing else and that he has been TRYing to do other things but lacks the naturual ability.
Let me try this again. We weren't claiming that he IS working hard but simply lacks the ability. What we were claiming is that we do not know whether he is or is not working hard at being more well-rounded. There is a difference. You're the one here claiming to *know* how hard he's worked on becoming more well-rounded (by claiming to know that he isn't working hard).
I am not claiming to know anything.
Okay; I didn't realize that you were open to the possibility (rather than knowing that the scenario wasn't possible) that he might be working extremely hard in the offseason (just without success on the court) to become a more well-rounded player.
I am sick of Houston apologist make excuses for him. He is a good jump shooter and thats it. I can even accept that he is a great jump shooter but thats all. He is not what most Houston fans here say he is! He is not a Top 10 SG. He is 1-dimensional. He never became anything more than that. It annoys me that my fav Knick: Ewing got so much grief when he was all we had for 15 years and he kept us respectable for all those season.

Why isn't Houston being criticized more? Wasn't he our best player! Is it because he lacks the ability to do any better? If so then why argue that he is anything more than a jump shooter?

[Edited by - Silverfuel on 09/21/2004 10:26:29]
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
fishmike
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9/21/2004  10:32 AM
Why isn't Houston being criticized more? Wasn't he our best player! Is it because he lacks the ability to do any better? If so then why argue that he is anything more than a jump shooter?
Layden made him our best player. If you want to be mad at him for the contract go ahead. The guy works hard, he's improved over the 7 years he been here, he's played hurt even the team was lousy and until last year missed 10 games in 7 years.

This is so silly. Name the players that are elite guards. They all have physical tools Houston can only dream of having. Yet he, like Reggie Miller has WORKED so hard over the years on their one true skill that its made them big time players. Not dominant players, but players capable of taking over a game.

Is this making excuses or apologizing? I dont know you tell me.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Bonn1997
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9/21/2004  10:48 AM
Posted by Silverfuel:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Silverfuel:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Most of the posts just said that his game is jump shooting and nothing else and that he has been TRYing to do other things but lacks the naturual ability.
Let me try this again. We weren't claiming that he IS working hard but simply lacks the ability. What we were claiming is that we do not know whether he is or is not working hard at being more well-rounded. There is a difference. You're the one here claiming to *know* how hard he's worked on becoming more well-rounded (by claiming to know that he isn't working hard).
I am not claiming to know anything.
Okay; I didn't realize that you were open to the possibility (rather than knowing that the scenario wasn't possible) that he might be working extremely hard in the offseason (just without success on the court) to become a more well-rounded player.
I am sick of Houston apologist make excuses for him. [Edited by - Silverfuel on 09/21/2004 10:26:29]
Where did I make an excuse for him? I simply raised a possibility that I was open to considering (that he's trying hard without results in some areas)--a scenario you obviously agree is possible unless you were lying when you said you are "not claiming to know anything" about his work habits (meaning you don't know whether the possibility I raised is accurate). No one is saying that possibility that I raised IS the case; just like no one should be saying (without evidence) that it isn't the case.
TMS
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9/21/2004  11:23 AM
Why isn't Houston being criticized more?

i could swear there's plenty of that going on in this thread alone.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Silverfuel
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9/21/2004  5:55 PM
This is so silly. Name the players that are elite guards. They all have physical tools Houston can only dream of having. Yet he, like Reggie Miller has WORKED so hard over the years on their one true skill that its made them big time players. Not dominant players, but players capable of taking over a game.

Is this making excuses or apologizing? I dont know you tell me.
Well, if u find it silly then ignore it!! And I wouldn't even dream of comparing Houston to anyone close to being elite. He might be capable of taking over games but I would take Reggie Miller over Allan Houston any day of the season. Now they are of course both old but Miller in his peak was a much better scorer and shooter than Houston in his peak. Check the stats.

You saying he doesn't have the physical tools is making excuses for him. Brent Barry was considered only a shooter till he completely changed him game. Houston has never shown the ability to change his game. All Houston is, is a good jump shooter. He can change games with his jump shots but only as a 3rd option!

He is not a Top 10 maybe SG in this league. If you agree with that then there is nothing we need to argue for.
Where did I make an excuse for him? I simply raised a possibility that I was open to considering (that he's trying hard without results in some areas)--a scenario you obviously agree is possible unless you were lying when you said you are "not claiming to know anything" about his work habits (meaning you don't know whether the possibility I raised is accurate). No one is saying that possibility that I raised IS the case; just like no one should be saying (without evidence) that it isn't the case.
Guy! I never called anyone out by name, you did not make excuses! you happy? And how about this, Allan Houston tries really hard, tries harder than most athletes to add other dimensions to his game but he still fails at doing so! He is still only a 1-dimensional jump shooter even though he tries hard. You happy? There, I acknowledged the possibility to of him trying. Does that change anything? Isn't that just as bad as being a 1-dimensional player. I would rather have a sprewell that misses practices and comes late to games than someone that tries hard to learn other things but still cannot learn!
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
Bonn1997
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9/21/2004  7:14 PM
It might be time for that daily chill pill
lrluis
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9/21/2004  11:20 PM
I think this Houston-bashing has an element of stereo-typing. The cornrow pic says it all.
technomaster
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9/22/2004  12:32 AM
I don't agree that Allan Houston is 1-dimensional. Wasn't it established like 20 posts ago that Houston is at least 2 dimensional?

At the very least, it should be acknowledged that a healthy Houston is a great scorer in the NBA. If his 20ppg+ come from mostly jumpers, more power too him. That means the defenders know it's coming and they STILL CAN'T STOP HIM. That's damn good jump shooting. :)

But the fact is Houston scores in a variety of ways. He finishes a little, he pops in a 3 here and there, hits his free throws (he's not jumping), has a variety of pull-up moves and turn-around jumpers.

He's not a finisher/slasher of the caliber of a Vince Carter or Paul Pierce or Sprewell, and because he doesn't recklessly throw his body toward the basket to draw fouls, he's had some excellent durability. You see these slasher-types have a tendency to break down from all of the contact (see Iverson).

Other parts of his game? Well... I think he elevated his defense to average before last season... but as I've said before, usually your top scorer doesn't defend the other team's top scorer anyway.

His passing and rebounding are average (or even slighly below average) for a SG who plays as many minutes as he does. He by no means is a complete player... and for an athlete, he's not the "quickest" guy out there-- he doesn't change direction well, and he wasn't blessed with elite basketball IQ or anticipation.

He's better than jump shooting specialists Trent Tucker, Steve Kerr, Tony Delk, Bruce Bowen... because he has some moves in his offensive arsenal.

Houston never quite reached Reggie Miller-type status as the killer marksman --- tho if you think back, he made his fair share of nail in the coffin shots too.

But once again, it comes down to public perception. Houston comes across as a soft, nice guy. Reggie, while just as soft, comes across as a villian, a guy with personality.

Maybe cornrows would have helped.
“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
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