knicks1248 wrote:we keep hiring these young coaches and giving them Bull sht rosters to work with making everybody look bad..

I really wanted Mike Budenholzer, Casey, mark jackson, or JVG, fiz was 5th on my list.

CrushAlot wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:we keep hiring these young coaches and giving them Bull sht rosters to work with making everybody look bad..

I really wanted Mike Budenholzer, Casey, mark jackson, or JVG, fiz was 5th on my list.

Fiz was considered a top candidate for any opening and of the candidates was considered the top developmental guy.

Exactly. Young developmental coach for a young squad. Clearly wins don't matter until KP returns. Are Knox, Trier, Robinson, Dotson, Ntilikina, and Mudiay developing well? With the exception of Ntilikina, it seems the answer is yes. So the front office must be happy with Fiz so far. I can't see some of those guys doing more than Fiz, other than maybe winning 2 or 3 more games at the expense of player development.

Knixkik wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:we keep hiring these young coaches and giving them Bull sht rosters to work with making everybody look bad..

I really wanted Mike Budenholzer, Casey, mark jackson, or JVG, fiz was 5th on my list.

Fiz was considered a top candidate for any opening and of the candidates was considered the top developmental guy.

Exactly. Young developmental coach for a young squad. Clearly wins don't matter until KP returns. Are Knox, Trier, Robinson, Dotson, Ntilikina, and Mudiay developing well? With the exception of Ntilikina, it seems the answer is yes. So the front office must be happy with Fiz so far. I can't see some of those guys doing more than Fiz, other than maybe winning 2 or 3 more games at the expense of player development.

First of all, you could never stop learning and developing regardless to how old you are..Your never too old to learn, and never to young to teach, that's my thinking.

So his job was never just to help the youngest on the team, but to develop and teach everyone winning habits, and you can't teach winning habit without actually winning a reasonable amount of games.

Mario, trey and frank are the 3 most disappointing players on the team, They're the main reason we we only have 9 wins, we needed big time contributions from them, and quite frankly, they haven't given us jack, besides a tease for a game or 3

These players dont even get on each other about bad shots, not taking shots, miss defensive assignments...No leadership, and you have a FO that thinks they are doing something nobody else thought of..Its a reason your the youngest team, that process has failed way more than it has worked

arkrud wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Vmart wrote:Nalod, just face it Fizdale sucks and has no plan. If he implements a system next year then he would have lost a year of teaching for those that might be here next year. Which means he delay everything. He is an awful coach. You guys can trick yourself.

The system is now not a system. LOL.
Thats my point, the team is awful. To employ a system now is to employ a bad scenario. I think the thing now is just letting these guys play some simple pick up style ball and let them develop that way. Get stronger, assimilate, try different things, etc.
This is not about Fiz being bad, its a really bad roster right now.

So let them develop bad habits that will stay with them throughout their careers because we have a bad roster now? You should know better...

I agree with Fiz ways to evaluate the players pool.
Let them play and see what their tendencies are, how deep they are ingrained, can they change their ways, can they learn.
How they react to adversities, losing, straggles, benching, criticism, failure.
We already know that Kanter, Mario, Burke, Timmy, Lee, Thomas are nothing we want to preserve.
We still learn what are others made of.
This system called natural selection. The best survive, the rest gone.

You don't change their ways by letting them make their bad tendencies worse

Nalod wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Vmart wrote:Nalod, just face it Fizdale sucks and has no plan. If he implements a system next year then he would have lost a year of teaching for those that might be here next year. Which means he delay everything. He is an awful coach. You guys can trick yourself.

The system is now not a system. LOL.
Thats my point, the team is awful. To employ a system now is to employ a bad scenario. I think the thing now is just letting these guys play some simple pick up style ball and let them develop that way. Get stronger, assimilate, try different things, etc.
This is not about Fiz being bad, its a really bad roster right now.

So let them develop bad habits that will stay with them throughout their careers because we have a bad roster now? You should know better...

Shoving a system down their throughts might have worse after affects. Actually on the surface I more agree with you and Im not advocating for them to play more free style but they are not playing streetball either. They are playing a very simple style and Im would imagine they have defined goals we are not privy to.
Why frustrate Mitchell with more than he can handle beyond his current tasks.
Why is it bad for Trier and Mudiay to find their game then refine it to a system?
Vonleh is not the sharpest crayon in the box but why is so bad that he do what he does best and let him feel succees instead of worrying about missed assignments?
Knox is playing to his strengths and feeling better about his game.
I think this "style" hurts Frank the most because in my opinion he is a disciple methodical type player. AKA: "system"

So to sort of defend this stance I see it as we are not winning and if we get hot we'll pull out a few games but this young team needs to find itself a bit. Thus, I am not so high on Vonleh and Mudiay as some because I do prefer high IQ players that can thrive in a "system"........
If you can't do that, why not let a team feel itself at this level? Bad habits? I get that. But what system would you prefer we play?
Anyway Im just observing. Not whining.

If there was ever a year to overload the players with more than they can handle this would be it. Who cares if the flounder? This was the year to separate the men from the boys. Instead we are separating iso players and putting them on a pedestal. I wasn't even asking for a complex system. I was asking for basic structured basketball where a point guard sets up the offense instead of chucking endlessly like Mudiay, Burke and Trier. I was asking for more PnR, was asking for ball movement and high percentage shots where the whole team is involved on offense not just Mudiay and Tim. We just spend the last 15 years learning the Melo style of me first hero-ball doesn't work. 6 of them with Melo himself. To make excuses for another coach to come in and do the same thing again, is just lazy.

arkrud wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

arkrud wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Vmart wrote:Nalod, just face it Fizdale sucks and has no plan. If he implements a system next year then he would have lost a year of teaching for those that might be here next year. Which means he delay everything. He is an awful coach. You guys can trick yourself.

The system is now not a system. LOL.
Thats my point, the team is awful. To employ a system now is to employ a bad scenario. I think the thing now is just letting these guys play some simple pick up style ball and let them develop that way. Get stronger, assimilate, try different things, etc.
This is not about Fiz being bad, its a really bad roster right now.

So let them develop bad habits that will stay with them throughout their careers because we have a bad roster now? You should know better...

I agree with Fiz ways to evaluate the players pool.
Let them play and see what their tendencies are, how deep they are ingrained, can they change their ways, can they learn.
How they react to adversities, losing, straggles, benching, criticism, failure.
We already know that Kanter, Mario, Burke, Timmy, Lee, Thomas are nothing we want to preserve.
We still learn what are others made of.
This system called natural selection. The best survive, the rest gone.

You don't change their ways by letting them make their best tendencies worse

Sometimes you cannot change what player is.
Organization need to identify this fact, observe it, and move of this player.
The negative result is as good as positive. It helps to refine the roster.
It is much better that fool yourself with players like Melo for years just because there are no leaders in the org to admit the grand failure.
If this year will result in clear picture of who is NOT part of the future its a great success already.

They way the Knicks are run this won't happen. Instead garbage line Mudiay wil be given a contract.

meloshouldgo wrote:

arkrud wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

arkrud wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Vmart wrote:Nalod, just face it Fizdale sucks and has no plan. If he implements a system next year then he would have lost a year of teaching for those that might be here next year. Which means he delay everything. He is an awful coach. You guys can trick yourself.

The system is now not a system. LOL.
Thats my point, the team is awful. To employ a system now is to employ a bad scenario. I think the thing now is just letting these guys play some simple pick up style ball and let them develop that way. Get stronger, assimilate, try different things, etc.
This is not about Fiz being bad, its a really bad roster right now.

So let them develop bad habits that will stay with them throughout their careers because we have a bad roster now? You should know better...

I agree with Fiz ways to evaluate the players pool.
Let them play and see what their tendencies are, how deep they are ingrained, can they change their ways, can they learn.
How they react to adversities, losing, straggles, benching, criticism, failure.
We already know that Kanter, Mario, Burke, Timmy, Lee, Thomas are nothing we want to preserve.
We still learn what are others made of.
This system called natural selection. The best survive, the rest gone.

You don't change their ways by letting them make their best tendencies worse

Sometimes you cannot change what player is.
Organization need to identify this fact, observe it, and move of this player.
The negative result is as good as positive. It helps to refine the roster.
It is much better that fool yourself with players like Melo for years just because there are no leaders in the org to admit the grand failure.
If this year will result in clear picture of who is NOT part of the future its a great success already.

They way the Knicks are run this won't happen. Instead garbage line Mudiay wil be given a contract.

CrushAlot wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

arkrud wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

arkrud wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Vmart wrote:Nalod, just face it Fizdale sucks and has no plan. If he implements a system next year then he would have lost a year of teaching for those that might be here next year. Which means he delay everything. He is an awful coach. You guys can trick yourself.

The system is now not a system. LOL.
Thats my point, the team is awful. To employ a system now is to employ a bad scenario. I think the thing now is just letting these guys play some simple pick up style ball and let them develop that way. Get stronger, assimilate, try different things, etc.
This is not about Fiz being bad, its a really bad roster right now.

So let them develop bad habits that will stay with them throughout their careers because we have a bad roster now? You should know better...

I agree with Fiz ways to evaluate the players pool.
Let them play and see what their tendencies are, how deep they are ingrained, can they change their ways, can they learn.
How they react to adversities, losing, straggles, benching, criticism, failure.
We already know that Kanter, Mario, Burke, Timmy, Lee, Thomas are nothing we want to preserve.
We still learn what are others made of.
This system called natural selection. The best survive, the rest gone.

You don't change their ways by letting them make their best tendencies worse

Sometimes you cannot change what player is.
Organization need to identify this fact, observe it, and move of this player.
The negative result is as good as positive. It helps to refine the roster.
It is much better that fool yourself with players like Melo for years just because there are no leaders in the org to admit the grand failure.
If this year will result in clear picture of who is NOT part of the future its a great success already.

They way the Knicks are run this won't happen. Instead garbage line Mudiay wil be given a contract.

This doesn't make sense. The Knicks did an exhaustive coaching search this offseason and chose the guy with the best reputation as a developmental coach. The Knicks approach to scouting the draft was fantastic and they came away with three rotation players. The strategy of targeting second draft guys like Mudiay, Vonleh, Mario and Burke while not impacting their ability to be players in 2019 free agency is what a competent front office does. Not sure why it's all about Mudiay for you. Taking a low risk chance on a high lottery pick in their early twenties is something good front offices do if they have limited assets.

You have asked the same question a hundred times and I have had the same response. I don't know if you are this slow on the uptake , but I don't like shoot first no defense chuckers. And that includes Mudiay and Burke. And while Kanter isn't a chucker, he is included as well because he doesn't play any defense. I don't look at 7 game shooting streaks to determine Muduay can shoot 45% from the field. Because I know he will regress to his mean. I also saw enough of hero-ball to know that this type of player does nothing to make the team better INSTEAD the more empty stats they accumulate the more they hurt the team.

CrushAlot wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

arkrud wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

arkrud wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Vmart wrote:Nalod, just face it Fizdale sucks and has no plan. If he implements a system next year then he would have lost a year of teaching for those that might be here next year. Which means he delay everything. He is an awful coach. You guys can trick yourself.

The system is now not a system. LOL.
Thats my point, the team is awful. To employ a system now is to employ a bad scenario. I think the thing now is just letting these guys play some simple pick up style ball and let them develop that way. Get stronger, assimilate, try different things, etc.
This is not about Fiz being bad, its a really bad roster right now.

So let them develop bad habits that will stay with them throughout their careers because we have a bad roster now? You should know better...

I agree with Fiz ways to evaluate the players pool.
Let them play and see what their tendencies are, how deep they are ingrained, can they change their ways, can they learn.
How they react to adversities, losing, straggles, benching, criticism, failure.
We already know that Kanter, Mario, Burke, Timmy, Lee, Thomas are nothing we want to preserve.
We still learn what are others made of.
This system called natural selection. The best survive, the rest gone.

You don't change their ways by letting them make their best tendencies worse

Sometimes you cannot change what player is.
Organization need to identify this fact, observe it, and move of this player.
The negative result is as good as positive. It helps to refine the roster.
It is much better that fool yourself with players like Melo for years just because there are no leaders in the org to admit the grand failure.
If this year will result in clear picture of who is NOT part of the future its a great success already.

They way the Knicks are run this won't happen. Instead garbage line Mudiay wil be given a contract.

This doesn't make sense. The Knicks did an exhaustive coaching search this offseason and chose the guy with the best reputation as a developmental coach. The Knicks approach to scouting the draft was fantastic and they came away with three rotation players. The strategy of targeting second draft guys like Mudiay, Vonleh, Mario and Burke while not impacting their ability to be players in 2019 free agency is what a competent front office does. Not sure why it's all about Mudiay for you. Taking a low risk chance on a high lottery pick in their early twenties is something good front offices do if they have limited assets.

You have asked the same question a hundred times and I have had the same response. I don't know if you are this slow on the uptake , but I don't like shoot first no defense chuckers. And that includes Mudiay and Burke. And while Kanter isn't a chucker, he is included as well because he doesn't play any defense. I don't look at 7 game shooting streaks to determine Muduay can shoot 45% from the field. Because I know he will regress to his mean. I also saw enough of hero-ball to know that this type of player does nothing to make the team better INSTEAD the more empty stats they accumulate the more they hurt the team.

Actually I was wondering why you think the Knicks would not be thorough in their player evaluations and deciding who they will bring back. That was why I said your post did not make sense. This front offices from has taken a thorough approach to every move they have made. I know that you will not like anyone that plays ahead of Frank. If it is a young, former lottdery pick that the front office traded for, the coach likes and he out plays Frank I would expect you to be relentless in your criticism of the player, coach and front office.

More bull**** but that's expected from agenda driven posters. If Mudiay played defense consistently at the same level as Frank, set people up on offense and scored, I would be looking to trade Frank ASAP. You are in the majority of people who think scoring is the only criteria by which to judge how well someone is playing and who is outplaying who. But being in the majority isn't the same as being right. The front office did their due diligence on Hezonja right? Stalwart two way player? This same front office is very likely to sign a complete scrub like Mudiay to a long term contract.

knicks1248 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

arkrud wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

arkrud wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Vmart wrote:Nalod, just face it Fizdale sucks and has no plan. If he implements a system next year then he would have lost a year of teaching for those that might be here next year. Which means he delay everything. He is an awful coach. You guys can trick yourself.

The system is now not a system. LOL.
Thats my point, the team is awful. To employ a system now is to employ a bad scenario. I think the thing now is just letting these guys play some simple pick up style ball and let them develop that way. Get stronger, assimilate, try different things, etc.
This is not about Fiz being bad, its a really bad roster right now.

So let them develop bad habits that will stay with them throughout their careers because we have a bad roster now? You should know better...

I agree with Fiz ways to evaluate the players pool.
Let them play and see what their tendencies are, how deep they are ingrained, can they change their ways, can they learn.
How they react to adversities, losing, straggles, benching, criticism, failure.
We already know that Kanter, Mario, Burke, Timmy, Lee, Thomas are nothing we want to preserve.
We still learn what are others made of.
This system called natural selection. The best survive, the rest gone.

You don't change their ways by letting them make their best tendencies worse

Sometimes you cannot change what player is.
Organization need to identify this fact, observe it, and move of this player.
The negative result is as good as positive. It helps to refine the roster.
It is much better that fool yourself with players like Melo for years just because there are no leaders in the org to admit the grand failure.
If this year will result in clear picture of who is NOT part of the future its a great success already.

They way the Knicks are run this won't happen. Instead garbage line Mudiay wil be given a contract.

This doesn't make sense. The Knicks did an exhaustive coaching search this offseason and chose the guy with the best reputation as a developmental coach. The Knicks approach to scouting the draft was fantastic and they came away with three rotation players. The strategy of targeting second draft guys like Mudiay, Vonleh, Mario and Burke while not impacting their ability to be players in 2019 free agency is what a competent front office does. Not sure why it's all about Mudiay for you. Taking a low risk chance on a high lottery pick in their early twenties is something good front offices do if they have limited assets.

Mills and Perry made it seem like the did an exhaustive search because they didn't want to look like phil did, I believe their mind was made up about fiz the min he left their office..They wanted a guy who could communicate with players, and fiz is great at that, but that's all he's good at

Our last 2 coaches were both fired from their previous jobs essentially after 1 season for under performing. A development coach is a guy you have on your coaching staff, not your head coach..Fiz has no track record of turning a franchise around.

We will probably have the longest losing streak in Franchise history because fiz has no clue on X&O's or how to get his guys to play hard.

They met with Bud and Fiz. Both were in demand. Knicks knew (Maybe not you) they were in for a long bad season and the direction they had to go in for this year, and perhaps beyond. That all factors into the decision. What coach was available that had the qualifications and turned around a franchise as a head coach with a very young roster? Bud was in total control of the ATL for a while and new ownership came in. Before you answer and superimpose his past make sure you know all the details then think how it relates to the present and unknown future. ALso is fiz someone that players want to play for?
Most of us like Bud. He came from the Pop Tree. Fiz from the Riley Tree. Bud was also courted by Bucks which was a totally different situation for him and from us. It sounded like he wanted to be here but our guys decided on Fiz. Nobody here was in the room so we can't really speak too much about it.

CrushAlot wrote:The strategy of targeting second draft guys like Mudiay, Vonleh, Mario and Burke while not impacting their ability to be players in 2019 free agency is what a competent front office does. ....... This front offices from has taken a thorough approach to every move they have made. I know that you will not like anyone that plays ahead of Frank. If it is a young, former lottdery pick that the front office traded for, the coach likes and he out plays Frank I would expect you to be relentless in your criticism of the player, coach and front office.

The Knicks are/were cap locked with players they wanted to dump but could not trade and could only shop at the Tier 4 and Tier 5 levels of free agency.

They only got some Tier 4 guys ( Hezonja and Vonleh) because the market completely collapsed.

Burke and Mudiay are Tier 5 guys, guys looking to stay in the league and hope for the best pathway to minutes. There is NO STRATEGY here. The Knicks under Jackson ****ed up their cap sheet. I mean totally ****ed it up. They could not run Frank N into the ground, thus you'll get cheap journeymen like Sessions, Jack, Burke and Mudiay.

This is not strategy, this is about finding WARM BODIES.

Most of you are still in the working world. Does your company always hire the best guy all the time? Sometimes they just need a guy or two and will take the best of what's available right then and there.

The Knicks are not targeting anyone. They wait until the better teams with better coaches/cap sheets/winning situations get first pick of the litter and they work with what's left.

A guy I got drafted with didn't make the league. He was a late pick and his odds were low to start, he knew that and was realistic about it. He started a business that essentially worked with waste disposal. Lots of people don't want those jobs. You know where he got regular pools of guys? Convicted felons. Am I ****ting on people, some, who want a second chance? NO. I'm saying when you make bad choices, your options narrow.

Knicks gave Jackson power. He totally ****ed their cap sheet. They got stuck shopping at the Red Tag Bin and got Mudiay and Burke. This is not targeting. This is not some grand plan. This is not some exhaustive strategy. It's about warm bodies.

Can it get better? Yes, over time. Just like a convicted felon, as time passes, and with some hard work and luck, might turn it around and find something that fits. But it takes time.

Sometimes a rose grows out of a pile a ****. But right now, it's just a pile of ****. If you want to hunker down and stare at a steaming pile of **** and talk about roses, go for it dude. Some guys are into that. For what it's worth, convicted felons knee deep in waste aren't into that. So while they've made bad choices, right now, they are making better choices than you.