blkexec wrote:

Vmart wrote:There is no place for a team player like Frank in a team less system. This team Fiz has and is being coached is to be ball hogs. Hence no assists. What we are witnessing is a coach who has no concept of team basketball. You will not win much with Fiz.

That's an extreme over blown statement.

He coached 3 NBA teams....1 as an assistant in Miami. He also was a PG in college. I understand if you don't like the guy, but he clearly understands the fundamentals of team basketball.

What we are seeing is that we don't have players with a high skill set to create for others. That's a reflection on the team dynamics, not the coach.

Frank is an unselfish passing guard....Probably the only one on the team. But he continues to get pressured into being more selfish. Trier on the other hand, is more advanced than Frank on offense, because Trier's playing style is iso ball....Put Trier on a system type team, he will not look good.

Frank probably has more value now than what he will have in the future.

I'm on record saying we missed on Dennis Smith Jr....Similar to Trier, he's the type of selfish guard NYer's appreciate. Frank is more old school unselfish type, which is not todays NBA. But Franks game style fits the current Euro league games. They play more system ball and less Iso Ball.

NY has had the most successful years when the point guard wasn’t selfish. Marbury was as aggressive as they came but NYK played terribly. The best years were with Harper, Childs and Ward. With some Jackson. The lastest pass first PG to do well were Kidd and Billups. See the trend here.

Vmart wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Vmart wrote:There is no place for a team player like Frank in a team less system. This team Fiz has and is being coached is to be ball hogs. Hence no assists. What we are witnessing is a coach who has no concept of team basketball. You will not win much with Fiz.

That's an extreme over blown statement.

He coached 3 NBA teams....1 as an assistant in Miami. He also was a PG in college. I understand if you don't like the guy, but he clearly understands the fundamentals of team basketball.

What we are seeing is that we don't have players with a high skill set to create for others. That's a reflection on the team dynamics, not the coach.

Frank is an unselfish passing guard....Probably the only one on the team. But he continues to get pressured into being more selfish. Trier on the other hand, is more advanced than Frank on offense, because Trier's playing style is iso ball....Put Trier on a system type team, he will not look good.

Frank probably has more value now than what he will have in the future.

I'm on record saying we missed on Dennis Smith Jr....Similar to Trier, he's the type of selfish guard NYer's appreciate. Frank is more old school unselfish type, which is not todays NBA. But Franks game style fits the current Euro league games. They play more system ball and less Iso Ball.

NY has had the most successful years when the point guard wasn’t selfish. Marbury was as aggressive as they came but NYK played terribly. The best years were with Harper, Childs and Ward. With some Jackson. The lastest pass first PG to do well were Kidd and Billups. See the trend here.

Yep...I agree. But just like Flip phones are more durable than this glass phones that shatters easy. But you don't see any flip phones anymore. Cassette tapes are more durable than CD's, but guess what? Times have changed, and the game has changed.

blkexec wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Vmart wrote:There is no place for a team player like Frank in a team less system. This team Fiz has and is being coached is to be ball hogs. Hence no assists. What we are witnessing is a coach who has no concept of team basketball. You will not win much with Fiz.

That's an extreme over blown statement.

He coached 3 NBA teams....1 as an assistant in Miami. He also was a PG in college. I understand if you don't like the guy, but he clearly understands the fundamentals of team basketball.

What we are seeing is that we don't have players with a high skill set to create for others. That's a reflection on the team dynamics, not the coach.

Frank is an unselfish passing guard....Probably the only one on the team. But he continues to get pressured into being more selfish. Trier on the other hand, is more advanced than Frank on offense, because Trier's playing style is iso ball....Put Trier on a system type team, he will not look good.

Frank probably has more value now than what he will have in the future.

I'm on record saying we missed on Dennis Smith Jr....Similar to Trier, he's the type of selfish guard NYer's appreciate. Frank is more old school unselfish type, which is not todays NBA. But Franks game style fits the current Euro league games. They play more system ball and less Iso Ball.

honestly I was never a dennis smith fan. The fact that we got Trier makes it a non issue. Id rather have Trier and Frank

Dennis Smith may not be a winner right now....He probably doesn't make his players better YET.

But his natural scoring abilities (just like Trier) would've had the Garden rocking. We would probably lose the same amount of games, but at least you will be entertained.

BTW....I live in Dallas, so I see and hear all the Dennis Smith talks. And every highlight play, I'm thinking man, the Garden fans would've loved him. Just like Trier is starting to grow on everybody. But are scoring guards. Smith is a few inches smaller than Trier, but jumps a few inches higher.

Frank is not even in the same ball park, on offense. And the way the game is going, with the rule changes....The value of defensive players are slowly dropping. Offense is starting to take over. That's why it's now ok to take 3 steps on layups....It's ok to jump, then land, then shoot and get an And-1 call. You breath on somebody, it's a foul.

It's unfortunate, but Frank came to NY a decade too late. He would've been the perfect backup PG (backing up Charlie Ward) back in the day, when centers ruled the NBA. Now its the guard play! And that's where Frank is behind the curve(right now). The rules don't allow him to be a lock down defender like we thought he could be.

It's a gamble to trade Frank, but now is the best time to do it, while his potential is still there. I just have a feeling he's going to be a similar player 5 years from now, if he stays in this system. Frank needs the Spurs system and coach to flourish.

StarksEwing1 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Vmart wrote:There is no place for a team player like Frank in a team less system. This team Fiz has and is being coached is to be ball hogs. Hence no assists. What we are witnessing is a coach who has no concept of team basketball. You will not win much with Fiz.

That's an extreme over blown statement.

He coached 3 NBA teams....1 as an assistant in Miami. He also was a PG in college. I understand if you don't like the guy, but he clearly understands the fundamentals of team basketball.

What we are seeing is that we don't have players with a high skill set to create for others. That's a reflection on the team dynamics, not the coach.

Frank is an unselfish passing guard....Probably the only one on the team. But he continues to get pressured into being more selfish. Trier on the other hand, is more advanced than Frank on offense, because Trier's playing style is iso ball....Put Trier on a system type team, he will not look good.

Frank probably has more value now than what he will have in the future.

I'm on record saying we missed on Dennis Smith Jr....Similar to Trier, he's the type of selfish guard NYer's appreciate. Frank is more old school unselfish type, which is not todays NBA. But Franks game style fits the current Euro league games. They play more system ball and less Iso Ball.

honestly I was never a dennis smith fan. The fact that we got Trier makes it a non issue. Id rather have Trier and Frank

Dennis Smith may not be a winner right now....He probably doesn't make his players better YET.

But his natural scoring abilities (just like Trier) would've had the Garden rocking. We would probably lose the same amount of games, but at least you will be entertained.

BTW....I live in Dallas, so I see and hear all the Dennis Smith talks. And every highlight play, I'm thinking man, the Garden fans would've loved him. Just like Trier is starting to grow on everybody. But are scoring guards. Smith is a few inches smaller than Trier, but jumps a few inches higher.

Frank is not even in the same ball park, on offense. And the way the game is going, with the rule changes....The value of defensive players are slowly dropping. Offense is starting to take over. That's why it's now ok to take 3 steps on layups....It's ok to jump, then land, then shoot and get an And-1 call. You breath on somebody, it's a foul.

It's unfortunate, but Frank came to NY a decade too late. He would've been the perfect backup PG (backing up Charlie Ward) back in the day, when centers ruled the NBA. Now its the guard play! And that's where Frank is behind the curve(right now). The rules don't allow him to be a lock down defender like we thought he could be.

It's a gamble to trade Frank, but now is the best time to do it, while his potential is still there. I just have a feeling he's going to be a similar player 5 years from now, if he stays in this system. Frank needs the Spurs system and coach to flourish.

I guess im not as fascinated with players who are simply just scorers. You still have to play defense in todays NBA otherwise you arent going far. I mean Golden State has offensive firepower but they also have guys who can bring it defensively like Draymond who is one of the best and klay. Same applies to Lebrons teams. That might make me "old school" but its pretty accurate. I mean we have had plenty of offensive minded player for 15 years and it amounted to jack **** because we couldnt stop anyone. Im not saying Frank will ever be close to those guys but he is the type of player you keep. He is still practically a baby and will get better. Despite what the OP says this is a rebuilding team so no need to get rid of youngsters at this time

Dude goes games without scoring or even looking at the basket.

This 2 way player you envision is a pipe dream or a very long process.(like i prefer to drive from NY to LA instead of flying) This system that he is in, this way that fiz wants to play...... a complete detriment to his development, it's making him look worse every game.

When you start using age as the reason he doesn't play uptempo or shoot, you discredit yourself as being bias, because we have all seen 1000's of kids his age 100x more aggressive, and can shoot better (15% on 3's for the month of Nov, that's just stupid).

Watching this 30 for 30 on BoB Knight, I'm thinking that's the kind of coach Frank needs.

DoTson can flat out give us more than frank(base on KP's timeline) and he's cheaper to keep.

blkexec wrote:

Vmart wrote:There is no place for a team player like Frank in a team less system. This team Fiz has and is being coached is to be ball hogs. Hence no assists. What we are witnessing is a coach who has no concept of team basketball. You will not win much with Fiz.

That's an extreme over blown statement.

He coached 3 NBA teams....1 as an assistant in Miami. He also was a PG in college. I understand if you don't like the guy, but he clearly understands the fundamentals of team basketball.

What we are seeing is that we don't have players with a high skill set to create for others. That's a reflection on the team dynamics, not the coach.

Frank is an unselfish passing guard....Probably the only one on the team. But he continues to get pressured into being more selfish. Trier on the other hand, is more advanced than Frank on offense, because Trier's playing style is iso ball....Put Trier on a system type team, he will not look good.

Frank probably has more value now than what he will have in the future.

I'm on record saying we missed on Dennis Smith Jr....Similar to Trier, he's the type of selfish guard NYer's appreciate. Frank is more old school unselfish type, which is not todays NBA. But Franks game style fits the current Euro league games. They play more system ball and less Iso Ball.

The terms selfish/unselfish are just pedantic terms to justify raw ballhoggery.

You don't need "selfish" players that NYers would appreciate.

What you need are players who simply will take good shots based on what the defense is giving them at the time and place. It means a player can take 30 shots or 4 shots, and in either scenario, if it's what the defense is giving you, and it's good shot selection, than that's going to help you win versus lose.

Frank N is not being pressured to be more "selfish", he's being pressured to take shots when it's clear the defense is shaded in a way where his shot would be the best high percentage situation at the time and place.

It doesn't help that guys gunning for a new contract like Trier, Burke and Kanter are freezing Frank N out.

There is nothing efficient about constant ball hoggery. The modern game is SPACE AND PACE. Also free flowing ball movement and stretching the floor with the three point shot.

You are suggesting a style of play that no actual contender level team uses for long term success. (LBJ does not utilize the modern space and pace game, and while he could drag teams into the Finals in a gutted East, he often lost in the Finals to teams who actually played real team basketball. )

shinmen wrote:I'm not a basket ball guru like some of you but I feel like Frank's struggles are in part due to his system bball background.
We are running an iso heavy system and I often see Frank trying to balance the floor to provide spacing for the likes of Trier, Burke and co. The result is him waiting on the 3 point line without any rythm in his game. He probably needs it more than others.

He would benefit from more passing and cutting but he can't. Paradoxically, I think we played better when we were losing at the beginning of the season. Mario benefited from a few nice back door cuts like McBuckets last year.
We haven't seen much of these these last few games. I don't think we are building winning basketball these days. We are gonna win some games when 1 or 2 players have good games and the opponent shoot poorly but it doesn't feel sustainable.

100%

Nalod wrote:

shinmen wrote:I'm not a basket ball guru like some of you but I feel like Frank's struggles are in part due to his system bball background.
We are running an iso heavy system and I often see Frank trying to balance the floor to provide spacing for the likes of Trier, Burke and co. The result is him waiting on the 3 point line without any rythm in his game. He probably needs it more than others.

He would benefit from more passing and cutting but he can't. Paradoxically, I think we played better when we were losing at the beginning of the season. Mario benefited from a few nice back door cuts like McBuckets last year.
We haven't seen much of these these last few games. I don't think we are building winning basketball these days. We are gonna win some games when 1 or 2 players have good games and the opponent shoot poorly but it doesn't feel sustainable.

We playing like March madness, we need a backcourt on fire to win games.
The game we playing now vs the start is different. Little pick an rol and less kick outs now.
I can see KP settling for easy shots on the wing in this configuration.
Is it permanent? If so then Frank won’t fair well.
Bottom line is Frank has to hit open looks to start. once he is respected he then penetrate. Right now he is dysfunctional. But that can change tomorrow.
As long as he is a knick I will hope and root. It dont matter what I think, because I’m not making decisions.

1000%

We had so many opportunities to nab an above avg pg via trade...Bledsoe, Kyrie, rubio, lowry, proven players that can move the needle, instead we opt to grab 18 yr olds that are half a decade away from maybe being decent...I hope they are learning form this

blkexec wrote:

ekstarks94 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

shinmen wrote:I'm not a basket ball guru like some of you but I feel like Frank's struggles are in part due to his system bball background.
We are running an iso heavy system and I often see Frank trying to balance the floor to provide spacing for the likes of Trier, Burke and co. The result is him waiting on the 3 point line without any rythm in his game. He probably needs it more than others.

He would benefit from more passing and cutting but he can't. Paradoxically, I think we played better when we were losing at the beginning of the season. Mario benefited from a few nice back door cuts like McBuckets last year.
We haven't seen much of these these last few games. I don't think we are building winning basketball these days. We are gonna win some games when 1 or 2 players have good games and the opponent shoot poorly but it doesn't feel sustainable.

We playing like March madness, we need a backcourt on fire to win games.
The game we playing now vs the start is different. Little pick an rol and less kick outs now.
I can see KP settling for easy shots on the wing in this configuration.
Is it permanent? If so then Frank won’t fair well.
Bottom line is Frank has to hit open looks to start. once he is respected he then penetrate. Right now he is dysfunctional. But that can change tomorrow.
As long as he is a knick I will hope and root. It dont matter what I think, because I’m not making decisions.

1000%

Agree with almost everything except that last statement.

Playing GM is the fun part. We all get to role play as a coach, owner, player.....That's how I vent. But I understand your point.

Question. If we are playing like its March madness...depending on the guards to lead us to win or hit big shots (I'm assuming that's what you mean).....Isnt that a good thing? Add a hungry KP looking to get paid, with 2or3 confident offensive guards, not afraid of the moment...

We will have the ability to put offensive pressure on every team at all 5 positions....with a healthy KP and confident March Madness get your own bucket type guards.....THj, Trier, Burke, now Mudiay, 2way Dotson.

I'm just waiting for Knox and Money Mitch to mature their games and body...That's when we become a serious contender in the east....in my humble opinion.

Kp can be hungry but we just need him to return to form and stay on the court. We know what he can do. His body was measured before and after so knicks will know if he is a good investment. There are odds to consider. I think he gets paid. Be silly for him to prove something and then crumble again.
but to your point KP on the wing "Playing like a Pu@@y" hoisting up shots won't get it done either. For that we can have kept Melo. Maybe Melo is laughing at us if he is watching.
What is and what can be are two different things.
As for venting as GM, yeah I get it and we all do it. I think Knicks1248 is pushing back harder and harder as if we are delusional crack heads with all kinds of dreams and he is here to save us.

knicks1248 wrote:ppl put so much stock in draft picks like its a guaranteed jack pot..

We had so many opportunities to nab an above avg pg via trade...Bledsoe, Kyrie, rubio, lowry, proven players that can move the needle, instead we opt to grab 18 yr olds that are half a decade away from maybe being decent...I hope they are learning form this

Luckily we can grab one of them via free agency.

BigDaddyG wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:ppl put so much stock in draft picks like its a guaranteed jack pot..

We had so many opportunities to nab an above avg pg via trade...Bledsoe, Kyrie, rubio, lowry, proven players that can move the needle, instead we opt to grab 18 yr olds that are half a decade away from maybe being decent...I hope they are learning form this

Luckily we can grab one of them via free agency.

Having seen Bledsoe and Rubio play this season, I can say I doubt they move the needle much. Maybe we draft picks 10-12 instead 7 or lower this season. I'm not sure even Lowry could pull us out of the lottery this season. Maybe Kyrie...if he were to stay healthy for most of the season. You need to collect assets first.

They would maybe move the needle to mediocrity before it needs to be torn down and rebuilt again or in Knicks case trade more future picks in order to make up for trading the pick(s) to aquire said player while barley hanging on to the playoffs bubble. All to build a team good enough to lose in the first round of the playoffs. While not having the picks to fall back on over the next 3 years.

Gotta build up the talent level first and foremost by drafting. Then with enough assets to fall back on you make plays for the Bledsoes and Rubios etc. This way you have takent to fall back on as well as maintain the ability to improve by not mortaging the future.