FireHornacek wrote:

Nalod wrote:Keep firing the coaches. That works.

Uhh, it worked for USA basketball. It worked for the Golden State Warriors. That's just two recent examples.

You don't follow basketball much, do you?

Since the new millennium, 18 years The New York Knickerbockers Basketball club has had 12 head coaches.
I agree a coach upgrade can turn a program around. USA Baskeball is not a pro club with draft picks, contracts and a cap to manage. GSW that Kerr took over won 55 games and he took it to another Level. Fizdale coached 14 games.
Your comment didn't deserve the effort of my typing let alone any thought.

FireHornacek wrote:

BigRedDog wrote:You are just trolling to get people pissed off.

How is answering a guy's question "trolling"?

That guy said firing coaches never works. I gave him two recent basketball champions where firing the coach did work.

Stroll on to another thread, kid. This discussion ain't for you.

Sarcasm is lost on the challenged:

Nalod wrote:
Keep firing the coaches. That works

To be literal,

JVG quit. For the most part knick replacements rarely improved a static roster.
Kerr was a great example of a steady roster improvement. USA basketball was not.

FireHornacek wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:
what do you think happens to kids who lose 55 games, they develop bad habits, I don't know how many time you here coaches and GM's talk about that.

You think a player playing on losing squad and knows he has no chance of winning is going to develop good winning habits?

Bingo.
Exactly my point.

Knick Plan:
Let's lose over 60 games this year and tell our dopey fans "We are developing our young players." Only mindless Knick fans (and I don't buy that bullcrap that NY fans are the most knowledgeable of all fans) are stupid enough to buy into that bullcrap. Developing our youth by losing 65 games. Good God, how idiotic can you be to buy into that horsesh!t?

Losing breeds losing habits. I know b-ball. Mark my words: that thirty point loss against OKC is going to be the norm come January, February, March. Oh, wow, we were tied against Golden State in the fourth. Oh, wow, we were ahead or tied in the fourth qarter in eight of our first nine games. You really think that is going to happen for an entire 82 game season? Believe me come mid-December and for the rest of the year the MSG network director will be giving us the panning camera shot as it pans across the Knick bench and we get a look at the dejected, beaten, sad faces of our entire team. You know the shot. That slow camera pan of the defeated faces of our team while they suffer another 30 point loss.

And this beatdown bench below was a team that actually had All-Stars on it! Get ready for this look for the rest of the year. 30 point slaughters here they come.

You are a prime reason the Knicks have been awful for 20 years.

But not awful - they were never bad enough to get a franchise player in the draft because they had to appease people like you.

JamesKPolk wrote:

FireHornacek wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:
what do you think happens to kids who lose 55 games, they develop bad habits, I don't know how many time you here coaches and GM's talk about that.

You think a player playing on losing squad and knows he has no chance of winning is going to develop good winning habits?

Bingo.
Exactly my point.

Knick Plan:
Let's lose over 60 games this year and tell our dopey fans "We are developing our young players." Only mindless Knick fans (and I don't buy that bullcrap that NY fans are the most knowledgeable of all fans) are stupid enough to buy into that bullcrap. Developing our youth by losing 65 games. Good God, how idiotic can you be to buy into that horsesh!t?

Losing breeds losing habits. I know b-ball. Mark my words: that thirty point loss against OKC is going to be the norm come January, February, March. Oh, wow, we were tied against Golden State in the fourth. Oh, wow, we were ahead or tied in the fourth qarter in eight of our first nine games. You really think that is going to happen for an entire 82 game season? Believe me come mid-December and for the rest of the year the MSG network director will be giving us the panning camera shot as it pans across the Knick bench and we get a look at the dejected, beaten, sad faces of our entire team. You know the shot. That slow camera pan of the defeated faces of our team while they suffer another 30 point loss.

And this beatdown bench below was a team that actually had All-Stars on it! Get ready for this look for the rest of the year. 30 point slaughters here they come.

You are a prime reason the Knicks have been awful for 20 years.

But not awful - they were never bad enough to get a franchise player in the draft because they had to appease people like you.

Correlation is not necessarily causation.

The win-now algorithm - wait for it - let's win with the best mediocre lineup we can put on the floor - is NOT DEVELOPMENT of a winning attitude.

Playing time cures all for young, developing players.

And if they lose, they lose but we shouldn't be losing for the sake of the lottery position. There is as much luck as anything else that goes into "winning" the lottery.

What must be said here though is that the real cure for losing is establishing a system - let's call it the traingle for lack of a better term. The current crop of Knicks aren't passing the ball. Its all one and done on the offensive end.

Fitz needs a Phil.

TripleThreat wrote:

FireHornacek wrote:
But you are overlooking the fact that Fizdale created this mutiny. "He can win a trophy as sixth man." What the hell is that crap?

Did you see the mutiny on the bench last night? Kanter was livid. And it wasn't over a defensive lapse from Frank The Frenchman. Kanter is being mistreated by Fiz. You can blame the salary/free agency/financial structures of the NBA, but you are still overlooking Fiz's role in this: relegating to the bench a guy who should be starting and logging 35 minutes on a sub-par team like the Knicks.

Fuck Kanter.

It's one thing to try to do your actual job and simply not execute.

It's another to go ****ing rogue and do whatever the hell you want.

I said the same thing about Hernangomez and Noah last year. If you want minutes, make the most of the ones you are given. Play in a way where no one can take you off the floor.

LeBron James has the leverage to ignore his coach. Kanter does not. If anything, this just makes Kanter even dumber. You can't drive up your counting stats from the bench. None of this is rocket science, pass the ****ing ball. Commit to your man defensively even if you know you will fail at it. Be disciplined.

Do your job the right way and then you'll start hearing **** you want to hear. Then you'll start getting **** you want to see and have.

how about putting him in a role he excels in instead of hoping he gets better at something he has never been good at.

Nalod wrote:

JamesKPolk wrote:

FireHornacek wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:
what do you think happens to kids who lose 55 games, they develop bad habits, I don't know how many time you here coaches and GM's talk about that.

You think a player playing on losing squad and knows he has no chance of winning is going to develop good winning habits?

Bingo.
Exactly my point.

Knick Plan:
Let's lose over 60 games this year and tell our dopey fans "We are developing our young players." Only mindless Knick fans (and I don't buy that bullcrap that NY fans are the most knowledgeable of all fans) are stupid enough to buy into that bullcrap. Developing our youth by losing 65 games. Good God, how idiotic can you be to buy into that horsesh!t?

Losing breeds losing habits. I know b-ball. Mark my words: that thirty point loss against OKC is going to be the norm come January, February, March. Oh, wow, we were tied against Golden State in the fourth. Oh, wow, we were ahead or tied in the fourth qarter in eight of our first nine games. You really think that is going to happen for an entire 82 game season? Believe me come mid-December and for the rest of the year the MSG network director will be giving us the panning camera shot as it pans across the Knick bench and we get a look at the dejected, beaten, sad faces of our entire team. You know the shot. That slow camera pan of the defeated faces of our team while they suffer another 30 point loss.

And this beatdown bench below was a team that actually had All-Stars on it! Get ready for this look for the rest of the year. 30 point slaughters here they come.

You are a prime reason the Knicks have been awful for 20 years.

But not awful - they were never bad enough to get a franchise player in the draft because they had to appease people like you.

Don't blame the fan or fan ignorance. This is clearly the owner who chose was either greedy or delusional (Ignorant).
Fans can choose for themselves with their own eyes. Media can color it only if you don't understand the variables and LET THEM. They can and do anger fans. Anger sells. Ignorance is contagious.

Landing elite talent is what creates a winning environment. Cavs have been to the last 4 NBA finals. Lakers have been in the lottery the last 5 years. Cavs lose Lebron, they now have among the worst records in the NBA. Lakers land Lebron and they are an above 500. team on a 4 game winning streak winning 7 of the last 8.

Y hasn't 4 NBA FINALS carried over(What is questions that won't be answered)? Y is a team that has been in the lottery the last 5 years starting to win games?

What a coincidence. A team started to "develop winning habits" after they added a superior talent. And another team just so happen to lose all the winning habits they developed leading to 4 NBA finals directly after they lost an elite talent.

Fighting over screens is a winning habits, giving effort on defense is a winning habit, moving the ball for to get the highest % shot is a winning habit. You need that intertwined with elite talent. Certain posters talking about "winning habits" on this forum is laughable.

fwk00 wrote:

JamesKPolk wrote:

FireHornacek wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:
what do you think happens to kids who lose 55 games, they develop bad habits, I don't know how many time you here coaches and GM's talk about that.

You think a player playing on losing squad and knows he has no chance of winning is going to develop good winning habits?

Bingo.
Exactly my point.

Knick Plan:
Let's lose over 60 games this year and tell our dopey fans "We are developing our young players." Only mindless Knick fans (and I don't buy that bullcrap that NY fans are the most knowledgeable of all fans) are stupid enough to buy into that bullcrap. Developing our youth by losing 65 games. Good God, how idiotic can you be to buy into that horsesh!t?

Losing breeds losing habits. I know b-ball. Mark my words: that thirty point loss against OKC is going to be the norm come January, February, March. Oh, wow, we were tied against Golden State in the fourth. Oh, wow, we were ahead or tied in the fourth qarter in eight of our first nine games. You really think that is going to happen for an entire 82 game season? Believe me come mid-December and for the rest of the year the MSG network director will be giving us the panning camera shot as it pans across the Knick bench and we get a look at the dejected, beaten, sad faces of our entire team. You know the shot. That slow camera pan of the defeated faces of our team while they suffer another 30 point loss.

And this beatdown bench below was a team that actually had All-Stars on it! Get ready for this look for the rest of the year. 30 point slaughters here they come.

You are a prime reason the Knicks have been awful for 20 years.

But not awful - they were never bad enough to get a franchise player in the draft because they had to appease people like you.

Correlation is not necessarily causation.

The win-now algorithm - wait for it - let's win with the best mediocre lineup we can put on the floor - is NOT DEVELOPMENT of a winning attitude.

Playing time cures all for young, developing players.

And if they lose, they lose but we shouldn't be losing for the sake of the lottery position. There is as much luck as anything else that goes into "winning" the lottery.

What must be said here though is that the real cure for losing is establishing a system - let's call it the traingle for lack of a better term. The current crop of Knicks aren't passing the ball. Its all one and done on the offensive end.

Fitz needs a Phil.

Nobody is losing for the sake of lottery position. They play hard most of the time. They're just very young and not very good.

The Knicks right now have no identity because they have no star players. Once they get one or two, they'll start forming the identity you speak of.

Right now, it's all about getting the losses while playing the young guys and seeing what they're worth.

What exactly is Frank The Frenchman going to develop into? I'll tell you, a guy who makes no mark in the NBA, kicks around the D-League for a year or two, than goes back to Europe to play ball there.

Develop? I know exactly what Burke and Trier and Knox and all the other teenagers on our team are. They ain't Hall Of Famers! We have nothing. Yet you fools think our nothing can be developed into a winning team. Hey, I have not a thing against optimists, but I do have something against blind fools.

Keep drinking that 12 dollar Garden Kool-Aid. Keep believing things are going well and this is all going to work. Alan Hahn actually took time in the post game show to tell us what was great about the Knicks last night. Good God we blew a 19 point lead and played rec ball defense in the last two and a half minutes. Oh, and Trier let Randle go right down the lane to put back two off a missed free throw. Was that great, Alan? Was that how we develop players? Is Trier now on his way to becoming a Hall of Famer?

FireHornacek wrote:Folks, why do you keep hammering away at that "developing young players" bullcrap? Man, now I know why the Garden can sell you a hot dog and a coke for the incredibly low price of just 12 dollars.

What exactly is Frank The Frenchman going to develop into? I'll tell you, a guy who makes no mark in the NBA, kicks around the D-League for a year or two, than goes back to Europe to play ball there.

Develop? I know exactly what Burke and Trier and Knox and all the other teenagers on our team are. They ain't Hall Of Famers! We have nothing. Yet you fools think our nothing can be developed into a winning team. Hey, I have not a thing against optimists, but I do have something against blind fools.

Keep drinking that 12 dollar Garden Kool-Aid. Keep believing things are going well and this is all going to work. Alan Hahn actually took time in the post game show to tell us what was great about the Knicks last night. Good God we blew a 19 point lead and played rec ball defense in the last two and a half minutes. Oh, and Trier let Randle go right down the lane to put back two off a missed free throw. Was that great, Alan? Was that how we develop players? Is Trier now on his way to becoming a Hall of Famer?

First of all you need elite talent to even think about winning a chip. The Knicks aren’t a destination for top flight free agents. They will always get the lower tier free agent and you get just enough wins to miss out on superior talent in the draft that has potential to pan out. Now if you want to complain about player development and how poor the Knicks are at it might have a point. The Knicks are absolutely trash at developing young players. Frank has regressed and further away he gets from his Euro training probably the worse he will get.

FireHornacek wrote:

Vmart wrote:First of all you need elite talent to even think about winning a chip. The Knicks aren’t a destination for top flight free agents. They will always get the lower tier free agent

Yes, and that's what is most worrisome. Sure, we might get lucky and knock it out of the park with a draft pick (look at Utah and Donovan Mitchell); but the bottom line is no elite player (and that is what is needed to win championships in this NBA) is coming to the Knicks. Jarret Jack got it right the other day with his tweet. He said the two big available frees next year - Anthony Davis and Durant - will be going to the Lakers. The Knicks are not on any elite's radar. I don't know how to fix that. I don't think it can be fixed.

That is why they have to develop their own talent and hope they become good enough to attract future free agents. Or that they become good enough that they don’t need any outsider FA.