StarksEwing1 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Chandler wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Chandler wrote:

Uptown wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Vmart wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Vmart wrote:

Chandler wrote:
I think this was a gross miscalculation by the FO concerning Mudiay, Vonleh, Burke and Hezonja. This is the epitome of heads they win; tails we lose.

Heads they win: If these players develop this year, what do we gain from that? It's not like we retain control on a team friendly contract. Instead, their improved plays just ups their contract expectations. DO not expect a home team discount (this caliber of player will rightfully want to make as much as they can on their next contract, because it might be their last; the best we can hope is that we have a matching offer and they choose us out of loyalty)

Tails we lose: Regardless of whether they develop, every minute they consume is at the expense of playing time for the youths we have on team friendly contracts and who we expect to remain with the team

I continue to think we would have been better served getting some cheaper vets (not as old as Jack) who can at least teach the youths how to get it done

I also think it's extreme hubris to profess that we'll succeed in development where Portland, Denver, Indiana, Utah failed -- those are quality programs

Having said all of that, because I am a fan I will continue to pull for them.

I want Mudiay to shoot with balance, attack the rim, and work on your FTs -- it's an embarrassment that you're at roughly 50%. For god's sake, Mitchell robinson is better at the stripe than you at the moment. Stop pretending to be Michael Jordan. Keep your shots simple

Vonleh, happy with him -- perhaps because of lower expectations. Needs to avoid dumb fouls, and stay positive

Burke, he needs to score. He can only contribute to this team if he outscores his opponents, he's not going to be a contributor on defense, and for that matter not much of a passer. There is still a role for his skill set though if he embraces it

Hezonja a lost soul. Always looking for the home run. I don't see him in the NBA next year (maybe not even the remainder of this one, when they sign Trier).

Agree with you. Some will say they have nothing to lose. But they have everything thing to lose. The Knicks have always been a poor development organization. I can’t get over how the are screwing Frank over. I told you guys a stupid move like playing Mudiay who is atrocious over him will result in possibly losing Frank and it’s happening right before our eyes. For some reason they have taken his agreesivness away on offense by avoiding the pass to him. Frank knows this and he doesn’t even look at the basket anymore he just swings the ball to another player even when he should launch the shot. Man Fizz is dropping the ball here he is treating him as a Phil pick. How long before he does that to KP.

Fiz is the reason Frank isn't aggressive on offense now? Fiz is going to be blamed if Frank doesn't pan out as a draft pick? This doesn't make sense to me. Frank has not been aggressive on offense since he became a knick. He was in the starting line up for the first 14 games despite his lack of aggressiveness and his offense did not improve. Frank is a passive player on the offensive side of the ball. Not sure how that is on Fiz. I do agree though that Frank is going to lose minutes to Mudiay but that is on Frank. Earlier in the season you thought Frank's offensive struggles were because he was fatigued.

Yes it is Fizz’s fault. Frank has always been willing passer and he did take shots maybe not as many as he should. If you watch the game there were trips when Frank never touched the ball. You can see the he is being Ostracized. Fizz doesn’t know wtf he is doing. This is the guy who went to Memphis and jerk around with their star player. You see Memphis they dump him and they are winning again. Frank needs to start and he needs to play he needs to be given a green light from the coach. Frank hasn’t been a good shooter but he has taken shots. If the coach can’t get Frank to shoot then it’s on the coach.

They were 7-6 when Conley went down last year. Conley is back this year and the team is much better. Bickerstaff did not win without Conley. Not sure where this is coming from. Frank seemed to have a free pass to stay on as a starter for most of this season so far. When he and Lance were in together it was dreadful. Fiz has said he wants Frank to be aggressive on offense. Frank has said Fiz wants him to be aggressive on offense. Fiz has called Frank too unselfish. He has talked about showing him film over and over again where Frank had an open shot or path to the basket that he passed up. This isn't about Frank being a Phil pick or Frank being ostracized. He needs to be more aggressive on the offensive side of the ball. That isn't news he just isn't doing it.

Spot on!!! And to add to that, when Knox came off the bench, he didn't have any problems finding shots! Neither did Trier, or Trey or even Dotson....so why is Frank the only one struggling to find shots?! Spare me the ostracized BS!! Maybe he's hesitant to pull the trigger because he's 17 % from 3 over the last 6 games or so? The questions we had about Frank last year with Coach Hornacek, are the same questions we have today with his 2nd coach..its time Frank take some responsibility...

I might be watching different games than you all. I saw Frank initially do well in the starting line up. However, opponents then started to pressure the ball more and Frank regressed. Then in the interest of staying aggressive he started rushing shots (by his standard) -- and yes he did play passive, tentative. But isn't that the point of development -- to evolve past those issues. I'll keep my fingers crossed that benching and demoting might trigger a response, that Fizz really means it, and he insists that Frank address it. It might work. Personally, I think they need to set particular and small goals for him, e.g., spots on the floor where he is good and he shouldn't hesitate. Xavier McDaniel had like two spots he would shoot from.

And perhaps OT to a degree, but the current NBA is barely watchable. Every game has a score like an All Star game/Globetrotters. Star treatment. The season is largely a joke where everyone knows GS only needs to play average by their standards, and avoid injuries, to win it all. You have to imagine at some point the NBA is going to react and trend back towards rules and calls that will allow more defense

Turning back to Mudiay, though, the question is still pending: what was the FO rationally expecting? If he develops he'll want to get paid and when lose him. If he doesn't there's an opportunity cost in terms of others' development.

Are you talking about the start of the season when he was playing off the ball or when he became the starting point guard? His offense was a lot better the first few games that he started at the point but then regressed again. I agree about the NBA being unwatchable.

yes the first few games he started. His mechanics look smooth enough, and he's usually shooting with balance. WHat he's missing is rhythm (and confidence of course). He's not a slasher. He scored off ball, or if a defender was really sagging off of him

The troubling part IMO is when other teams started pressuring him, it didn't take tons of it to disrupt his offensive contribution. He certainly needs to work on that in a big way. Having said that, I still think as a team we play better with him on the court and though I haven't checked lately the stats seemed to bear that out.

Your assessment is fair. I think they should have told him it's his team to run and let him start every game. I also think Fiz is missing out on how to build his confidence up and that may do long term damage or it may spur him to respond in a different way. I am definitely hoping for the latter. He still makes the team better and the are several posters here who choose to focus on ONLY the negative when it comes to Frank. They have been doing that since last year, oddly enough I don't see any of them focusing on the negatives of Spice. It's clear cut agenda driven posting. What confuses me is why they hate Frank, and I think it's something as petty as him being picked during the Phil era.

Just curious, why do you think anyone that roots for the Knicks hates Frank? Once a guy puts on the uniform don't you root for them?

Simple. People find negative stuff to post about him, but don't post anything negative about Burke, Mudiay or Knox. When all their games leave a lot to be desired, most of them have never done anything at an NBA level. But these posters always just post about Frank's lack of scoring, never once post about lack of defense by all their own favorite players. It's a fairly transparent double standard. Especially since they claim to support Frank, which makes them hypocrites in my opinion.

This board has been littered with Mudiay is garbage or he isn't apart of the future so why is he playing, or even though he's 22, his window is pretty much closed in terms becoming an above average player...etc...People are constantly knocking Burke's size or lack thereof, being inefficient on the defensive end or his tunnel vision from time to time....As much as I root for Knox, I've pointed out how he needs to go stronger to the basket and use his size as opposed to try to avoid contact....

People see what they want to see and nitpick certain posts...

They wanted the Knicks to focus all there development on Frank, knox, and mitch, just play those guys through every mistake, every bad shot, or no shot at all.

Right now burke and mudiay look much more promising than frank from a PG stand point.

Can't believe you would think Mudiay's and burke is keeping frank back, he had every opportunity that every player on this team has. frank is also the only player on the entire roster to play every single game this season. fiz did him a solid by not benching him (like burke) for his one sided play

YOu see things in absolutes in the moment. Fact is Frank is 20, still growing and offensively inconsistent. Burke is 26 small and a defensive liability. Mudiay is still an enigma but playing his best ball in his short career. Frank can still be a role player and future starter. It’s fluid.
It’s to one or the other. What knicks are not doing is playing a fluid type of passing basketball. This helps Burke and Trier. Mudiay is a good passer. when Burke and Trier get hot they are great. Burke played like this last year at times and its fun to watch. Sustainable type ball?
Trier at 6-4 might really be his replacement.
Frank future? Just like th knicks, its not absolute or clear.

Frank is very similar to Vonleh who was a lotto pick a fee seasons prior. Drafted for his unique combinations of skills but was young and raw and needed to build confidence. Vonlehs last few games has been a glimpse of why he was taken in the lottery. 3s, rebs, blks, stls, mobility/agility and length. May never be a go to scorer but provides utility in a variety of ways.

Frank just needs to knock down his 3s at an efficient rate, attack close outs when possible, and chip in across the board stls, blks, rebs, ast here and there while playing his usual strong defense. If he isn't going to be a stud lead guard then he would need to mold his game into this type of player.

Frank had 53 possessions vs Taytum, Lillard, CJ, & Holiday(11 possessions vs Holiday) last 3 games. He allowed 9 total points over those 53 possessions through 3 games vs elite offensive players)

May have to make a choice between Vonleh and Mudiay in the off season though as one of them may command the mid level if we sign a top flight FA and re-up KP. This is all of course based on Mudiay keeping the level of play he had vs Pelicans.

Good Post. I think most understand that Franks defense is still very important to this team even though his offensive game is still developing

Agree, don't think its a choice between Mudiay and Frank. Too many Frank fans on here are threatened by Mudiays progress. Like he is going to replace Frank. Not saying you are btw. Fact is Frank made Fiz replace him at PG, not Mudiays play. Think some dont like how Mudiays is showing them everything Frank lacks as a PG.

Think that Frank will be best as a defenaive wing and will hopefully improve his offense. If not he will just be a role player off the bench. The NBA is littered with bench guys that have athleticism but cannot hit outside shots consistently. Everyone can keep taunting his individual defensive skills but as we saw last night, several players had better +/- than him and we held the Grizzlies to a very low offensive output in the 4th Quarter without him. Dont Think anyone is giving up on him or will, but if he does not show progress on the offensive side, he will continue to lose minutes. But not because of Mudiay.

In regards to Mudiay, think we will keep him if the cost is low and we can't find anyone better at the PG spot. Mudiay is playing better amd should be developed. As he is not yet where you want a playoff team PG to be. He is the bezt PG we have though. Trier seems more like a 6th man spark as does Burke. Of course all this can change. They are all very young and it will naturally be based on their progress going forward.

HofstraBBall wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Chandler wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Chandler wrote:

Uptown wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Vmart wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Vmart wrote:

Chandler wrote:
I think this was a gross miscalculation by the FO concerning Mudiay, Vonleh, Burke and Hezonja. This is the epitome of heads they win; tails we lose.

Heads they win: If these players develop this year, what do we gain from that? It's not like we retain control on a team friendly contract. Instead, their improved plays just ups their contract expectations. DO not expect a home team discount (this caliber of player will rightfully want to make as much as they can on their next contract, because it might be their last; the best we can hope is that we have a matching offer and they choose us out of loyalty)

Tails we lose: Regardless of whether they develop, every minute they consume is at the expense of playing time for the youths we have on team friendly contracts and who we expect to remain with the team

I continue to think we would have been better served getting some cheaper vets (not as old as Jack) who can at least teach the youths how to get it done

I also think it's extreme hubris to profess that we'll succeed in development where Portland, Denver, Indiana, Utah failed -- those are quality programs

Having said all of that, because I am a fan I will continue to pull for them.

I want Mudiay to shoot with balance, attack the rim, and work on your FTs -- it's an embarrassment that you're at roughly 50%. For god's sake, Mitchell robinson is better at the stripe than you at the moment. Stop pretending to be Michael Jordan. Keep your shots simple

Vonleh, happy with him -- perhaps because of lower expectations. Needs to avoid dumb fouls, and stay positive

Burke, he needs to score. He can only contribute to this team if he outscores his opponents, he's not going to be a contributor on defense, and for that matter not much of a passer. There is still a role for his skill set though if he embraces it

Hezonja a lost soul. Always looking for the home run. I don't see him in the NBA next year (maybe not even the remainder of this one, when they sign Trier).

Agree with you. Some will say they have nothing to lose. But they have everything thing to lose. The Knicks have always been a poor development organization. I can’t get over how the are screwing Frank over. I told you guys a stupid move like playing Mudiay who is atrocious over him will result in possibly losing Frank and it’s happening right before our eyes. For some reason they have taken his agreesivness away on offense by avoiding the pass to him. Frank knows this and he doesn’t even look at the basket anymore he just swings the ball to another player even when he should launch the shot. Man Fizz is dropping the ball here he is treating him as a Phil pick. How long before he does that to KP.

Fiz is the reason Frank isn't aggressive on offense now? Fiz is going to be blamed if Frank doesn't pan out as a draft pick? This doesn't make sense to me. Frank has not been aggressive on offense since he became a knick. He was in the starting line up for the first 14 games despite his lack of aggressiveness and his offense did not improve. Frank is a passive player on the offensive side of the ball. Not sure how that is on Fiz. I do agree though that Frank is going to lose minutes to Mudiay but that is on Frank. Earlier in the season you thought Frank's offensive struggles were because he was fatigued.

Yes it is Fizz’s fault. Frank has always been willing passer and he did take shots maybe not as many as he should. If you watch the game there were trips when Frank never touched the ball. You can see the he is being Ostracized. Fizz doesn’t know wtf he is doing. This is the guy who went to Memphis and jerk around with their star player. You see Memphis they dump him and they are winning again. Frank needs to start and he needs to play he needs to be given a green light from the coach. Frank hasn’t been a good shooter but he has taken shots. If the coach can’t get Frank to shoot then it’s on the coach.

They were 7-6 when Conley went down last year. Conley is back this year and the team is much better. Bickerstaff did not win without Conley. Not sure where this is coming from. Frank seemed to have a free pass to stay on as a starter for most of this season so far. When he and Lance were in together it was dreadful. Fiz has said he wants Frank to be aggressive on offense. Frank has said Fiz wants him to be aggressive on offense. Fiz has called Frank too unselfish. He has talked about showing him film over and over again where Frank had an open shot or path to the basket that he passed up. This isn't about Frank being a Phil pick or Frank being ostracized. He needs to be more aggressive on the offensive side of the ball. That isn't news he just isn't doing it.

Spot on!!! And to add to that, when Knox came off the bench, he didn't have any problems finding shots! Neither did Trier, or Trey or even Dotson....so why is Frank the only one struggling to find shots?! Spare me the ostracized BS!! Maybe he's hesitant to pull the trigger because he's 17 % from 3 over the last 6 games or so? The questions we had about Frank last year with Coach Hornacek, are the same questions we have today with his 2nd coach..its time Frank take some responsibility...

I might be watching different games than you all. I saw Frank initially do well in the starting line up. However, opponents then started to pressure the ball more and Frank regressed. Then in the interest of staying aggressive he started rushing shots (by his standard) -- and yes he did play passive, tentative. But isn't that the point of development -- to evolve past those issues. I'll keep my fingers crossed that benching and demoting might trigger a response, that Fizz really means it, and he insists that Frank address it. It might work. Personally, I think they need to set particular and small goals for him, e.g., spots on the floor where he is good and he shouldn't hesitate. Xavier McDaniel had like two spots he would shoot from.

And perhaps OT to a degree, but the current NBA is barely watchable. Every game has a score like an All Star game/Globetrotters. Star treatment. The season is largely a joke where everyone knows GS only needs to play average by their standards, and avoid injuries, to win it all. You have to imagine at some point the NBA is going to react and trend back towards rules and calls that will allow more defense

Turning back to Mudiay, though, the question is still pending: what was the FO rationally expecting? If he develops he'll want to get paid and when lose him. If he doesn't there's an opportunity cost in terms of others' development.

Are you talking about the start of the season when he was playing off the ball or when he became the starting point guard? His offense was a lot better the first few games that he started at the point but then regressed again. I agree about the NBA being unwatchable.

yes the first few games he started. His mechanics look smooth enough, and he's usually shooting with balance. WHat he's missing is rhythm (and confidence of course). He's not a slasher. He scored off ball, or if a defender was really sagging off of him

The troubling part IMO is when other teams started pressuring him, it didn't take tons of it to disrupt his offensive contribution. He certainly needs to work on that in a big way. Having said that, I still think as a team we play better with him on the court and though I haven't checked lately the stats seemed to bear that out.

Your assessment is fair. I think they should have told him it's his team to run and let him start every game. I also think Fiz is missing out on how to build his confidence up and that may do long term damage or it may spur him to respond in a different way. I am definitely hoping for the latter. He still makes the team better and the are several posters here who choose to focus on ONLY the negative when it comes to Frank. They have been doing that since last year, oddly enough I don't see any of them focusing on the negatives of Spice. It's clear cut agenda driven posting. What confuses me is why they hate Frank, and I think it's something as petty as him being picked during the Phil era.

Just curious, why do you think anyone that roots for the Knicks hates Frank? Once a guy puts on the uniform don't you root for them?

Simple. People find negative stuff to post about him, but don't post anything negative about Burke, Mudiay or Knox. When all their games leave a lot to be desired, most of them have never done anything at an NBA level. But these posters always just post about Frank's lack of scoring, never once post about lack of defense by all their own favorite players. It's a fairly transparent double standard. Especially since they claim to support Frank, which makes them hypocrites in my opinion.

This board has been littered with Mudiay is garbage or he isn't apart of the future so why is he playing, or even though he's 22, his window is pretty much closed in terms becoming an above average player...etc...People are constantly knocking Burke's size or lack thereof, being inefficient on the defensive end or his tunnel vision from time to time....As much as I root for Knox, I've pointed out how he needs to go stronger to the basket and use his size as opposed to try to avoid contact....

People see what they want to see and nitpick certain posts...

They wanted the Knicks to focus all there development on Frank, knox, and mitch, just play those guys through every mistake, every bad shot, or no shot at all.

Right now burke and mudiay look much more promising than frank from a PG stand point.

Can't believe you would think Mudiay's and burke is keeping frank back, he had every opportunity that every player on this team has. frank is also the only player on the entire roster to play every single game this season. fiz did him a solid by not benching him (like burke) for his one sided play

YOu see things in absolutes in the moment. Fact is Frank is 20, still growing and offensively inconsistent. Burke is 26 small and a defensive liability. Mudiay is still an enigma but playing his best ball in his short career. Frank can still be a role player and future starter. It’s fluid.
It’s to one or the other. What knicks are not doing is playing a fluid type of passing basketball. This helps Burke and Trier. Mudiay is a good passer. when Burke and Trier get hot they are great. Burke played like this last year at times and its fun to watch. Sustainable type ball?
Trier at 6-4 might really be his replacement.
Frank future? Just like th knicks, its not absolute or clear.

Frank is very similar to Vonleh who was a lotto pick a fee seasons prior. Drafted for his unique combinations of skills but was young and raw and needed to build confidence. Vonlehs last few games has been a glimpse of why he was taken in the lottery. 3s, rebs, blks, stls, mobility/agility and length. May never be a go to scorer but provides utility in a variety of ways.

Frank just needs to knock down his 3s at an efficient rate, attack close outs when possible, and chip in across the board stls, blks, rebs, ast here and there while playing his usual strong defense. If he isn't going to be a stud lead guard then he would need to mold his game into this type of player.

Frank had 53 possessions vs Taytum, Lillard, CJ, & Holiday(11 possessions vs Holiday) last 3 games. He allowed 9 total points over those 53 possessions through 3 games vs elite offensive players)

May have to make a choice between Vonleh and Mudiay in the off season though as one of them may command the mid level if we sign a top flight FA and re-up KP. This is all of course based on Mudiay keeping the level of play he had vs Pelicans.

Good Post. I think most understand that Franks defense is still very important to this team even though his offensive game is still developing

Agree, don't think its a choice between Mudiay and Frank. Too many Frank fans on here are threatened by Mudiays progress. Like he is going to replace Frank. Not saying you are btw. Fact is Frank made Fiz replace him at PG, not Mudiays play. Think some dont like how Mudiays is showing them everything Frank lacks as a PG.

Think that Frank will be best as a defenaive wing and will hopefully improve his offense. If not he will just be a role player off the bench. The NBA is littered with bench guys that have athleticism but cannot hit outside shots consistently. Everyone can keep taunting his individual defensive skills but as we saw last night, several players had better +/- than him and we held the Grizzlies to a very low offensive output in the 4th Quarter without him. Dont Think anyone is giving up on him or will, but if he does not show progress on the offensive side, he will continue to lose minutes. But not because of Mudiay.

In regards to Mudiay, think we will keep him if the cost is low and we can't find anyone better at the PG spot. Mudiay is playing better amd should be developed. As he is not yet where you want a playoff team PG to be. He is the bezt PG we have though. Trier seems more like a 6th man spark as does Burke. Of course all this can change. They are all very young and it will naturally be based on their progress going forward.

Im a big Frank fan. You are right about what going on and its all wide open for now on this team. Seems everyone but Baker has had some good moments when given opportunity even Frank. What ever it is be it: "need of confidence", "Sore shoulders" or "Needs AAU swagger" it gave Mudiay a window. Really it sounds like Mudiay was going to get that anyway if he was not hurt as Fiz was very pleased with him prior.

This team is wide open. They have done a good job giving everyone a chance.
Frank is young and he will have other opportunities. Most fans like their rookies and want to see them blossom.
We know he has the biggest upside potential of our guards. I suspect the FO knows well enough and better than us if that is legit or not. Would hate to see him traded and blossom somewhere else.

And yes giving him minutes forces Frank to play out of position and makes it twice as hard on him. This year should have been about developing the youth, clearly some fans are too enamored with inconsistent scorers to give a **** about that.

StarksEwing1 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Uptown wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Chandler wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Chandler wrote:

Uptown wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Vmart wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Vmart wrote:

Chandler wrote:
I think this was a gross miscalculation by the FO concerning Mudiay, Vonleh, Burke and Hezonja. This is the epitome of heads they win; tails we lose.

Heads they win: If these players develop this year, what do we gain from that? It's not like we retain control on a team friendly contract. Instead, their improved plays just ups their contract expectations. DO not expect a home team discount (this caliber of player will rightfully want to make as much as they can on their next contract, because it might be their last; the best we can hope is that we have a matching offer and they choose us out of loyalty)

Tails we lose: Regardless of whether they develop, every minute they consume is at the expense of playing time for the youths we have on team friendly contracts and who we expect to remain with the team

I continue to think we would have been better served getting some cheaper vets (not as old as Jack) who can at least teach the youths how to get it done

I also think it's extreme hubris to profess that we'll succeed in development where Portland, Denver, Indiana, Utah failed -- those are quality programs

Having said all of that, because I am a fan I will continue to pull for them.

I want Mudiay to shoot with balance, attack the rim, and work on your FTs -- it's an embarrassment that you're at roughly 50%. For god's sake, Mitchell robinson is better at the stripe than you at the moment. Stop pretending to be Michael Jordan. Keep your shots simple

Vonleh, happy with him -- perhaps because of lower expectations. Needs to avoid dumb fouls, and stay positive

Burke, he needs to score. He can only contribute to this team if he outscores his opponents, he's not going to be a contributor on defense, and for that matter not much of a passer. There is still a role for his skill set though if he embraces it

Hezonja a lost soul. Always looking for the home run. I don't see him in the NBA next year (maybe not even the remainder of this one, when they sign Trier).

Agree with you. Some will say they have nothing to lose. But they have everything thing to lose. The Knicks have always been a poor development organization. I can’t get over how the are screwing Frank over. I told you guys a stupid move like playing Mudiay who is atrocious over him will result in possibly losing Frank and it’s happening right before our eyes. For some reason they have taken his agreesivness away on offense by avoiding the pass to him. Frank knows this and he doesn’t even look at the basket anymore he just swings the ball to another player even when he should launch the shot. Man Fizz is dropping the ball here he is treating him as a Phil pick. How long before he does that to KP.

Fiz is the reason Frank isn't aggressive on offense now? Fiz is going to be blamed if Frank doesn't pan out as a draft pick? This doesn't make sense to me. Frank has not been aggressive on offense since he became a knick. He was in the starting line up for the first 14 games despite his lack of aggressiveness and his offense did not improve. Frank is a passive player on the offensive side of the ball. Not sure how that is on Fiz. I do agree though that Frank is going to lose minutes to Mudiay but that is on Frank. Earlier in the season you thought Frank's offensive struggles were because he was fatigued.

Yes it is Fizz’s fault. Frank has always been willing passer and he did take shots maybe not as many as he should. If you watch the game there were trips when Frank never touched the ball. You can see the he is being Ostracized. Fizz doesn’t know wtf he is doing. This is the guy who went to Memphis and jerk around with their star player. You see Memphis they dump him and they are winning again. Frank needs to start and he needs to play he needs to be given a green light from the coach. Frank hasn’t been a good shooter but he has taken shots. If the coach can’t get Frank to shoot then it’s on the coach.

They were 7-6 when Conley went down last year. Conley is back this year and the team is much better. Bickerstaff did not win without Conley. Not sure where this is coming from. Frank seemed to have a free pass to stay on as a starter for most of this season so far. When he and Lance were in together it was dreadful. Fiz has said he wants Frank to be aggressive on offense. Frank has said Fiz wants him to be aggressive on offense. Fiz has called Frank too unselfish. He has talked about showing him film over and over again where Frank had an open shot or path to the basket that he passed up. This isn't about Frank being a Phil pick or Frank being ostracized. He needs to be more aggressive on the offensive side of the ball. That isn't news he just isn't doing it.

Spot on!!! And to add to that, when Knox came off the bench, he didn't have any problems finding shots! Neither did Trier, or Trey or even Dotson....so why is Frank the only one struggling to find shots?! Spare me the ostracized BS!! Maybe he's hesitant to pull the trigger because he's 17 % from 3 over the last 6 games or so? The questions we had about Frank last year with Coach Hornacek, are the same questions we have today with his 2nd coach..its time Frank take some responsibility...

I might be watching different games than you all. I saw Frank initially do well in the starting line up. However, opponents then started to pressure the ball more and Frank regressed. Then in the interest of staying aggressive he started rushing shots (by his standard) -- and yes he did play passive, tentative. But isn't that the point of development -- to evolve past those issues. I'll keep my fingers crossed that benching and demoting might trigger a response, that Fizz really means it, and he insists that Frank address it. It might work. Personally, I think they need to set particular and small goals for him, e.g., spots on the floor where he is good and he shouldn't hesitate. Xavier McDaniel had like two spots he would shoot from.

And perhaps OT to a degree, but the current NBA is barely watchable. Every game has a score like an All Star game/Globetrotters. Star treatment. The season is largely a joke where everyone knows GS only needs to play average by their standards, and avoid injuries, to win it all. You have to imagine at some point the NBA is going to react and trend back towards rules and calls that will allow more defense

Turning back to Mudiay, though, the question is still pending: what was the FO rationally expecting? If he develops he'll want to get paid and when lose him. If he doesn't there's an opportunity cost in terms of others' development.

Are you talking about the start of the season when he was playing off the ball or when he became the starting point guard? His offense was a lot better the first few games that he started at the point but then regressed again. I agree about the NBA being unwatchable.

yes the first few games he started. His mechanics look smooth enough, and he's usually shooting with balance. WHat he's missing is rhythm (and confidence of course). He's not a slasher. He scored off ball, or if a defender was really sagging off of him

The troubling part IMO is when other teams started pressuring him, it didn't take tons of it to disrupt his offensive contribution. He certainly needs to work on that in a big way. Having said that, I still think as a team we play better with him on the court and though I haven't checked lately the stats seemed to bear that out.

Your assessment is fair. I think they should have told him it's his team to run and let him start every game. I also think Fiz is missing out on how to build his confidence up and that may do long term damage or it may spur him to respond in a different way. I am definitely hoping for the latter. He still makes the team better and the are several posters here who choose to focus on ONLY the negative when it comes to Frank. They have been doing that since last year, oddly enough I don't see any of them focusing on the negatives of Spice. It's clear cut agenda driven posting. What confuses me is why they hate Frank, and I think it's something as petty as him being picked during the Phil era.

Just curious, why do you think anyone that roots for the Knicks hates Frank? Once a guy puts on the uniform don't you root for them?

Simple. People find negative stuff to post about him, but don't post anything negative about Burke, Mudiay or Knox. When all their games leave a lot to be desired, most of them have never done anything at an NBA level. But these posters always just post about Frank's lack of scoring, never once post about lack of defense by all their own favorite players. It's a fairly transparent double standard. Especially since they claim to support Frank, which makes them hypocrites in my opinion.

This board has been littered with Mudiay is garbage or he isn't apart of the future so why is he playing, or even though he's 22, his window is pretty much closed in terms becoming an above average player...etc...People are constantly knocking Burke's size or lack thereof, being inefficient on the defensive end or his tunnel vision from time to time....As much as I root for Knox, I've pointed out how he needs to go stronger to the basket and use his size as opposed to try to avoid contact....

People see what they want to see and nitpick certain posts...

They wanted the Knicks to focus all there development on Frank, knox, and mitch, just play those guys through every mistake, every bad shot, or no shot at all.

Right now burke and mudiay look much more promising than frank from a PG stand point.

Can't believe you would think Mudiay's and burke is keeping frank back, he had every opportunity that every player on this team has. frank is also the only player on the entire roster to play every single game this season. fiz did him a solid by not benching him (like burke) for his one sided play

YOu see things in absolutes in the moment. Fact is Frank is 20, still growing and offensively inconsistent. Burke is 26 small and a defensive liability. Mudiay is still an enigma but playing his best ball in his short career. Frank can still be a role player and future starter. It’s fluid.
It’s to one or the other. What knicks are not doing is playing a fluid type of passing basketball. This helps Burke and Trier. Mudiay is a good passer. when Burke and Trier get hot they are great. Burke played like this last year at times and its fun to watch. Sustainable type ball?
Trier at 6-4 might really be his replacement.
Frank future? Just like th knicks, its not absolute or clear.

Frank is very similar to Vonleh who was a lotto pick a fee seasons prior. Drafted for his unique combinations of skills but was young and raw and needed to build confidence. Vonlehs last few games has been a glimpse of why he was taken in the lottery. 3s, rebs, blks, stls, mobility/agility and length. May never be a go to scorer but provides utility in a variety of ways.

Frank just needs to knock down his 3s at an efficient rate, attack close outs when possible, and chip in across the board stls, blks, rebs, ast here and there while playing his usual strong defense. If he isn't going to be a stud lead guard then he would need to mold his game into this type of player.

Frank had 53 possessions vs Taytum, Lillard, CJ, & Holiday(11 possessions vs Holiday) last 3 games. He allowed 9 total points over those 53 possessions through 3 games vs elite offensive players)

May have to make a choice between Vonleh and Mudiay in the off season though as one of them may command the mid level if we sign a top flight FA and re-up KP. This is all of course based on Mudiay keeping the level of play he had vs Pelicans.

Good Post. I think most understand that Franks defense is still very important to this team even though his offensive game is still developing

Agree, don't think its a choice between Mudiay and Frank. Too many Frank fans on here are threatened by Mudiays progress. Like he is going to replace Frank. Not saying you are btw. Fact is Frank made Fiz replace him at PG, not Mudiays play. Think some dont like how Mudiays is showing them everything Frank lacks as a PG.

Think that Frank will be best as a defenaive wing and will hopefully improve his offense. If not he will just be a role player off the bench. The NBA is littered with bench guys that have athleticism but cannot hit outside shots consistently. Everyone can keep taunting his individual defensive skills but as we saw last night, several players had better +/- than him and we held the Grizzlies to a very low offensive output in the 4th Quarter without him. Dont Think anyone is giving up on him or will, but if he does not show progress on the offensive side, he will continue to lose minutes. But not because of Mudiay.

In regards to Mudiay, think we will keep him if the cost is low and we can't find anyone better at the PG spot. Mudiay is playing better amd should be developed. As he is not yet where you want a playoff team PG to be. He is the bezt PG we have though. Trier seems more like a 6th man spark as does Burke. Of course all this can change. They are all very young and it will naturally be based on their progress going forward.

Yeah I mean I’ve done nothing but root for Mudiay even when he was struggling. Hell even Burke who I admit I’m not a huge fan of I’ve praised him a lot for his scoring and his professionalism. I am a fan of Frank but I’ve said from day 1 I could care less if he was a PG or not. I feel he can play 3 positions if needed.

Agree. Thinking his offense will come around. Has shown glimpses. Odd thing is that when I go to games he hits just about every shot in practice. He has good mechanics. Just lacks the confidence and attitude to take over. Hopefully it improves.

meloshouldgo wrote:Mudiay has 14 combined assists and 7 TOs over the last 5 games where he supposedly "broke out" as PG. He also has a net +/- of -9 over the same period.
The narrative people are pushing here trying to make this about Frank and his shortcomings is still the same old agenda driven bull****.
Mudiay is scrub, who plays little or no defense, he pushes the ball and commits turnovers as often as he converts fast breaks.
Starting PG my ass.

And yes giving him minutes forces Frank to play out of position and makes it twice as hard on him. This year should have been about developing the youth, clearly some fans are too enamored with inconsistent scorers to give a **** about that.

Eraserboy can't make up his mind about the validity of +/-. Only uses it as a valid measure when it suits him. Why is this about Mudiay vs Frank. Thought you were a Knick fan first and not a hater troll looking to prove his meaningless opinion is true. (Sarcasm)
Fact is Knick fans should be happy about ALL our players playing well.
Mudiay is one. Frank is a good player and will get better. But not a better PG than Mudiay right now. But ok, if you want to make about them, what exactly was Franks +/- last night? Assists? If this is a defensive outcry for defensive players, as you claim, why not complain about guys that are better statistically on defense than Frank? Ie. Dotson. Fact is we held the Grizzlies to 19 pts in the third and made a nice run without Frank. But you won't mention that.

Btw, have more stats showing Mudiay is playing well. Just for you.

https://youtu.be/INm_GCs7CiM

HofstraBBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Mudiay has 14 combined assists and 7 TOs over the last 5 games where he supposedly "broke out" as PG. He also has a net +/- of -9 over the same period.
The narrative people are pushing here trying to make this about Frank and his shortcomings is still the same old agenda driven bull****.
Mudiay is scrub, who plays little or no defense, he pushes the ball and commits turnovers as often as he converts fast breaks.
Starting PG my ass.

And yes giving him minutes forces Frank to play out of position and makes it twice as hard on him. This year should have been about developing the youth, clearly some fans are too enamored with inconsistent scorers to give a **** about that.

Eraserboy can't make up his mind about the validity of +/-. Only uses it as a valid measure when it suits him. Why is this about Mudiay vs Frank. Thought you were a Knick fan first and not a hater troll looking to prove his meaningless opinion is true. (Sarcasm)
Fact is Knick fans should be happy about ALL our players playing well.
Mudiay is one. Frank is a good player and will get better. But not a better PG than Mudiay right now. But ok, if you want to make about them, what exactly was Franks +/- last night? Assists? If this is a defensive outcry for defensive players, as you claim, why not complain about guys that are better statistically on defense than Frank? Ie. Dotson. Fact is we held the Grizzlies to 19 pts in the third and made a nice run without Frank. But you won't mention that.

Btw, have more stats showing Mudiay is playing well. Just for you.

https://youtu.be/INm_GCs7CiM

Since Ben Simmons, Chris Paul, KAT, and James Harden have a negative +/- for the season so far that must mean they suck too?

Welpee wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Mudiay has 14 combined assists and 7 TOs over the last 5 games where he supposedly "broke out" as PG. He also has a net +/- of -9 over the same period.
The narrative people are pushing here trying to make this about Frank and his shortcomings is still the same old agenda driven bull****.
Mudiay is scrub, who plays little or no defense, he pushes the ball and commits turnovers as often as he converts fast breaks.
Starting PG my ass.

And yes giving him minutes forces Frank to play out of position and makes it twice as hard on him. This year should have been about developing the youth, clearly some fans are too enamored with inconsistent scorers to give a **** about that.

Eraserboy can't make up his mind about the validity of +/-. Only uses it as a valid measure when it suits him. Why is this about Mudiay vs Frank. Thought you were a Knick fan first and not a hater troll looking to prove his meaningless opinion is true. (Sarcasm)
Fact is Knick fans should be happy about ALL our players playing well.
Mudiay is one. Frank is a good player and will get better. But not a better PG than Mudiay right now. But ok, if you want to make about them, what exactly was Franks +/- last night? Assists? If this is a defensive outcry for defensive players, as you claim, why not complain about guys that are better statistically on defense than Frank? Ie. Dotson. Fact is we held the Grizzlies to 19 pts in the third and made a nice run without Frank. But you won't mention that.

Btw, have more stats showing Mudiay is playing well. Just for you.

https://youtu.be/INm_GCs7CiM

I told you the Mudiay haters would do that, drop some stats to discredit his recent play.

Since Ben Simmons, Chris Paul, KAT, and James Harden have a negative +/- for the season so far that must mean they suck too?

meloshouldgo wrote:

Welpee wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Mudiay has 14 combined assists and 7 TOs over the last 5 games where he supposedly "broke out" as PG. He also has a net +/- of -9 over the same period.
The narrative people are pushing here trying to make this about Frank and his shortcomings is still the same old agenda driven bull****.
Mudiay is scrub, who plays little or no defense, he pushes the ball and commits turnovers as often as he converts fast breaks.
Starting PG my ass.

And yes giving him minutes forces Frank to play out of position and makes it twice as hard on him. This year should have been about developing the youth, clearly some fans are too enamored with inconsistent scorers to give a **** about that.

Eraserboy can't make up his mind about the validity of +/-. Only uses it as a valid measure when it suits him. Why is this about Mudiay vs Frank. Thought you were a Knick fan first and not a hater troll looking to prove his meaningless opinion is true. (Sarcasm)
Fact is Knick fans should be happy about ALL our players playing well.
Mudiay is one. Frank is a good player and will get better. But not a better PG than Mudiay right now. But ok, if you want to make about them, what exactly was Franks +/- last night? Assists? If this is a defensive outcry for defensive players, as you claim, why not complain about guys that are better statistically on defense than Frank? Ie. Dotson. Fact is we held the Grizzlies to 19 pts in the third and made a nice run without Frank. But you won't mention that.

Btw, have more stats showing Mudiay is playing well. Just for you.

https://youtu.be/INm_GCs7CiM

I told you the Mudiay haters would do that, drop some stats to discredit his recent play.

Since Ben Simmons, Chris Paul, KAT, and James Harden have a negative +/- for the season so far that must mean they suck too?

Number of assists and turnovers for a starting PG is too complicated a statistic for you? Oh wait I am a Mudiay hater because I wasn't ot PG to do something other than scoring. SMDH

BigDaddyG wrote:

Welpee wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Welpee wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Mudiay has 14 combined assists and 7 TOs over the last 5 games where he supposedly "broke out" as PG. He also has a net +/- of -9 over the same period.
The narrative people are pushing here trying to make this about Frank and his shortcomings is still the same old agenda driven bull****.
Mudiay is scrub, who plays little or no defense, he pushes the ball and commits turnovers as often as he converts fast breaks.
Starting PG my ass.

And yes giving him minutes forces Frank to play out of position and makes it twice as hard on him. This year should have been about developing the youth, clearly some fans are too enamored with inconsistent scorers to give a **** about that.

Eraserboy can't make up his mind about the validity of +/-. Only uses it as a valid measure when it suits him. Why is this about Mudiay vs Frank. Thought you were a Knick fan first and not a hater troll looking to prove his meaningless opinion is true. (Sarcasm)
Fact is Knick fans should be happy about ALL our players playing well.
Mudiay is one. Frank is a good player and will get better. But not a better PG than Mudiay right now. But ok, if you want to make about them, what exactly was Franks +/- last night? Assists? If this is a defensive outcry for defensive players, as you claim, why not complain about guys that are better statistically on defense than Frank? Ie. Dotson. Fact is we held the Grizzlies to 19 pts in the third and made a nice run without Frank. But you won't mention that.

Btw, have more stats showing Mudiay is playing well. Just for you.

https://youtu.be/INm_GCs7CiM

I told you the Mudiay haters would do that, drop some stats to discredit his recent play.

Since Ben Simmons, Chris Paul, KAT, and James Harden have a negative +/- for the season so far that must mean they suck too?

Number of assists and turnovers for a starting PG is too complicated a statistic for you? Oh wait I am a Mudiay hater because I wasn't ot PG to do something other than scoring. SMDH

Well, I referenced the +/- thing. But since you mentioned his assist/turnover ratio during this stretch, 2:1 is basically close to what Kyrie Irving, Steph Curry, Russell Westbrook and Damion Lillard are posting. And let me preemptively say I'm not comparing Mudiay to those players, I'm saying if you're trying to portray a 2:1 ratio as being poor then there are a bunch of all-star level point guards who are also poor in that category as well. SMDH

When you take usage and TOV % into account, the only one of those players who are worse at turning the ball over is Westbrook. Even still, you have to take into account that Westbrook usually has had insane usage ratea from year to year. That said, I won't hold it against Mudiay that much. The fact he has shown enough improvement to be considered an NBA rotation player is good. His career was at a crossroads. Hopefully he continues to leading our youth development endeavors while continuing to improve. I don't want him to improve this much this season. It could mean the difference between Zion Williamson or Rui Hachimura.

Yup, and if I had to guess Westbrook racks up slightly more than 14 assists over a 5 game stretch. I clearly mentioned cumulative total assists because it's abysmally low.

Welpee wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Welpee wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Welpee wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Mudiay has 14 combined assists and 7 TOs over the last 5 games where he supposedly "broke out" as PG. He also has a net +/- of -9 over the same period.
The narrative people are pushing here trying to make this about Frank and his shortcomings is still the same old agenda driven bull****.
Mudiay is scrub, who plays little or no defense, he pushes the ball and commits turnovers as often as he converts fast breaks.
Starting PG my ass.

And yes giving him minutes forces Frank to play out of position and makes it twice as hard on him. This year should have been about developing the youth, clearly some fans are too enamored with inconsistent scorers to give a **** about that.

Eraserboy can't make up his mind about the validity of +/-. Only uses it as a valid measure when it suits him. Why is this about Mudiay vs Frank. Thought you were a Knick fan first and not a hater troll looking to prove his meaningless opinion is true. (Sarcasm)
Fact is Knick fans should be happy about ALL our players playing well.
Mudiay is one. Frank is a good player and will get better. But not a better PG than Mudiay right now. But ok, if you want to make about them, what exactly was Franks +/- last night? Assists? If this is a defensive outcry for defensive players, as you claim, why not complain about guys that are better statistically on defense than Frank? Ie. Dotson. Fact is we held the Grizzlies to 19 pts in the third and made a nice run without Frank. But you won't mention that.

Btw, have more stats showing Mudiay is playing well. Just for you.

https://youtu.be/INm_GCs7CiM

I told you the Mudiay haters would do that, drop some stats to discredit his recent play.

Since Ben Simmons, Chris Paul, KAT, and James Harden have a negative +/- for the season so far that must mean they suck too?

Number of assists and turnovers for a starting PG is too complicated a statistic for you? Oh wait I am a Mudiay hater because I wasn't ot PG to do something other than scoring. SMDH

Well, I referenced the +/- thing. But since you mentioned his assist/turnover ratio during this stretch, 2:1 is basically close to what Kyrie Irving, Steph Curry, Russell Westbrook and Damion Lillard are posting. And let me preemptively say I'm not comparing Mudiay to those players, I'm saying if you're trying to portray a 2:1 ratio as being poor then there are a bunch of all-star level point guards who are also poor in that category as well. SMDH

When you take usage and TOV % into account, the only one of those players who are worse at turning the ball over is Westbrook. Even still, you have to take into account that Westbrook usually has had insane usage ratea from year to year. That said, I won't hold it against Mudiay that much. The fact he has shown enough improvement to be considered an NBA rotation player is good. His career was at a crossroads. Hopefully he continues to leading our youth development endeavors while continuing to improve. I don't want him to improve this much this season. It could mean the difference between Zion Williamson or Rui Hachimura.

He specifically referenced +/- and his assist versus turnovers. You can selectively cherry pick stats to discredit or praise just about any player based on who you want to prop up or trash.

On a different matter, personally I'm not on board with the tanking program some in this forum are in love with. But that horse has been beaten to death.

So that's your argument? Mudiay is the best PG and any stat that shows otherwise was selectively cherry picked to make him look bad. You mean like fake news, right? Isn't it telling you need to pull a Trump to show Mudiay's worth? 😂😂

meloshouldgo wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Mudiay has 14 combined assists and 7 TOs over the last 5 games where he supposedly "broke out" as PG. He also has a net +/- of -9 over the same period.
The narrative people are pushing here trying to make this about Frank and his shortcomings is still the same old agenda driven bull****.
Mudiay is scrub, who plays little or no defense, he pushes the ball and commits turnovers as often as he converts fast breaks.
Starting PG my ass.

And yes giving him minutes forces Frank to play out of position and makes it twice as hard on him. This year should have been about developing the youth, clearly some fans are too enamored with inconsistent scorers to give a **** about that.

So the knicks coaching staff should only focus on getting frank better or just the players they drafted. Everybody else can kick rocks?

Pretty soon your'e going to hate fiz because he thinks they very opposite of how you think, he's a huge mudiay fan, a huge THJ fan, and in the last few games, he has cut back on franks and knox minutes to 15 per, (all on the negative side of plus/-)...the results have been very positive for the team

You think if frank and knox was playing well he would do that, he put those guys in the starting line up and gave them every opportunity to secure that role and they failed to impress, or even be avg, They played terrible.

Now that he's leaning more on mudiay, Kanter and burke, who clearly out played frank, knox and mitch...... aaaannnd we're winning some games..you think he should go back to teenagers and play himself

You talk about Mudiay and Burke like they're finish products, those guys have just taking their game up another level as oppose to Frank Knox who are a couple yrs away...

Let's get this straight, most of Frank's time in the starting lineup was at SF. Which was a stupid way to help him build his confidence.
And yes we invested our most valuable currency which is our draft picks on the youth and we brought Fiz in to develop that youth. That is the PRIMARY OBJECTIVE of a REBUILD. Trying to build up journeymen scrubs no one in the NBA wanted, for a three game winning streak during a season that won't lead to anything is exactly what he wasn't supposed to be doing. We have had enough fukking no defense chuckers in our history to have learned that lesson by now. But we have whole entire bandwagons of fans who justify playing time based on points scored even for PGs and don't even look at assist numbers, turnovers and God forbid defense.

There is a very small (and getting smaller by the game)percentage of ppl that think frank is a PG. A kid who does absolutely nothing that resembles a NBA pg.

A kid who has taking 6 FT in the last 20 nba games, and has penetrated even less, a kid that has played over a 100 NBA games and have failed to score 20 points in any of those games, a kid who was giving the green light to fire at will and still take 2 shots, a kid who comes down court and gives up the ball in 3 seconds flat, and runs to the corner, a kid who is on pace to have the worst shooting percentage than any guard in KNICKS HISTORY (heard breen say this the other night).

You belong in a all white rubber room for thinking that Mudiay and burke are not wanted by other teams, was that what 30 other GMS told you.

must be killing you to see us winning with those guys.

trust me when i tell you, Frank is currently on the path of both mudiay and trey.