Over the last 5 games, here are Franks numbers: 6 pts, 4 asts, 1 rbd, 2 TO's, 31% fgs, 16% 3ptfg...Frank has been putrid on the offensive end, yet when we read the game thread of some of the threads here, we see the same excuses: He's only 20, he needs more experience or Chauncey Billups developed later on in his career so Frank has a chance to do the same.

Mudiay doesn't get the same treatment. Since when did 22 become old? So, Frank can develop like Billups but Mudiay can't? Obviously, Mudiay struggled in Denver, and last year he didn't look too good in his brief stint here. But nobody on the roster looked good last year playing in the toxic environment created by our former Prez and lame duck coach. Case and point, how much better does Hardaway and Dotson look this year as opposed to last year?

Over the last 5 games, here are Mudiays numbers: 10 pts, 3 asts, 4 rbds, 2 TO's, 47% fgs, 36% 3ptfg...I'm not a big Mudiay fan, but I call it like I see it...He has a better feel for running the point than Frank does and as light as Mudiay's numbers are, they are better than Franks and he has outplayed Frank since his return. Mudiay has a 15.34 PER compared to Franks 7.74 PER...To be fair, Mudiays PER are over 5-6 games while Franks covers the season.

I get it though, Frank was drafted by us and is homegrown while Mudiay was essentially picked up off the scrap heap and is considered an outsider. He will always be at a disadvantage. Just check the game threads, Mudiay can make 3 good plays in a row, as soon as he makes one bad pass, people are ready to send him down to the G league or its the same ole Mudiay from his Denver days when he was 20.... Homegrown or no, I want a pg who can put as much pressure on the defense as he can on the offense....In the end, Fiz has created a competitive environment and if this trend continues, Mudiay may and should take the reigns from Frank.

Uptown wrote:First and foremost, both Frank and Mudiay are playing like back-up guards on a good team at best....There's a good chance that neither one of them are the answer to our future pg question, but in the meantime, they are all we have and both have a chance to compete, gain experience and out-duel the other....

Over the last 5 games, here are Franks numbers: 6 pts, 4 asts, 1 rbd, 2 TO's, 31% fgs, 16% 3ptfg...Frank has been putrid on the offensive end, yet when we read the game thread of some of the threads here, we see the same excuses: He's only 20, he needs more experience or Chauncey Billups developed later on in his career so Frank has a chance to do the same.

Mudiay doesn't get the same treatment. Since when did 22 become old? So, Frank can develop like Billups but Mudiay can't? Obviously, Mudiay struggled in Denver, and last year he didn't look too good in his brief stint here. But nobody on the roster looked good last year playing in the toxic environment created by our former Prez and lame duck coach. Case and point, how much better does Hardaway and Dotson look this year as opposed to last year?

Over the last 5 games, here are Mudiays numbers: 10 pts, 3 asts, 4 rbds, 2 TO's, 47% fgs, 36% 3ptfg...I'm not a big Mudiay fan, but I call it like I see it...He has a better feel for running the point than Frank does and as light as Mudiay's numbers are, they are better than Franks and he has outplayed Frank since his return. Mudiay has a 15.34 PER compared to Franks 7.74 PER...To be fair, Mudiays PER are over 5-6 games while Franks covers the season.

I get it though, Frank was drafted by us and is homegrown while Mudiay was essentially picked up off the scrap heap and is considered an outsider. He will always be at a disadvantage. Just check the game threads, Mudiay can may 3 good plays in a row, as soon as he makes one bad pass, people are ready to send him down to the G league or its the same ole Mudiay from his Denver days when he was 20.... In the end, Fiz has created a competitive environment and if this trend continues, Mudiay may and should take the reigns from Frank.

I think you're leaving out the defensive impact, which is night and day. I have no problem giving Mudiay a shot. There is going to be a lot of lineup shuffling this season. The reason Mudiay doesn't get the same treatment has been up and down for four seasons. If he continues his play, great! I personally don't expect much. But like coach said, you keep what you kill.

BigDaddyG wrote:

Uptown wrote:First and foremost, both Frank and Mudiay are playing like back-up guards on a good team at best....There's a good chance that neither one of them are the answer to our future pg question, but in the meantime, they are all we have and both have a chance to compete, gain experience and out-duel the other....

Over the last 5 games, here are Franks numbers: 6 pts, 4 asts, 1 rbd, 2 TO's, 31% fgs, 16% 3ptfg...Frank has been putrid on the offensive end, yet when we read the game thread of some of the threads here, we see the same excuses: He's only 20, he needs more experience or Chauncey Billups developed later on in his career so Frank has a chance to do the same.

Mudiay doesn't get the same treatment. Since when did 22 become old? So, Frank can develop like Billups but Mudiay can't? Obviously, Mudiay struggled in Denver, and last year he didn't look too good in his brief stint here. But nobody on the roster looked good last year playing in the toxic environment created by our former Prez and lame duck coach. Case and point, how much better does Hardaway and Dotson look this year as opposed to last year?

Over the last 5 games, here are Mudiays numbers: 10 pts, 3 asts, 4 rbds, 2 TO's, 47% fgs, 36% 3ptfg...I'm not a big Mudiay fan, but I call it like I see it...He has a better feel for running the point than Frank does and as light as Mudiay's numbers are, they are better than Franks and he has outplayed Frank since his return. Mudiay has a 15.34 PER compared to Franks 7.74 PER...To be fair, Mudiays PER are over 5-6 games while Franks covers the season.

I get it though, Frank was drafted by us and is homegrown while Mudiay was essentially picked up off the scrap heap and is considered an outsider. He will always be at a disadvantage. Just check the game threads, Mudiay can may 3 good plays in a row, as soon as he makes one bad pass, people are ready to send him down to the G league or its the same ole Mudiay from his Denver days when he was 20.... In the end, Fiz has created a competitive environment and if this trend continues, Mudiay may and should take the reigns from Frank.

I think you're leaving out the defensive impact, which is night and day. I have no problem giving Mudiay a shot. There is going to be a lot of lineup shuffling this season. The reason Mudiay doesn't get the same treatment has been up and down for four seasons. If he continues his play, great! I personally don't expect much. But like coach said, you keep what you kill.

I dont think its night and day at all...Could be wrong but I saw a stat on my phone the other day that implied that we are better when Mudiay is on the floor in most statistical categories....I'm trying to find it now...

ramtour420 wrote:the main question is who can improve more/better/faster/stronger

why are we even comparing the two of them? because what Frank brings on D is timeless. If he gets his offensive numbers to

47% fgs, 36% 3ptfg.

he instantly becomes an all star/max player. Offense can be developed while defensive instincts you either have or have not

CrushAlot wrote:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/mikevorkunov/status/1060223408720539651

this from before the raptors game.

Uptown wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/mikevorkunov/status/1060223408720539651

this from before the raptors game.

My man Crush!! I can always count on you to come through with the stats....I saw a different stat but this covers most of what I was trying to point out....Mudiay's defensive impact on the court is better than he's getting credit for...

Uptown wrote:Mudiay doesn't get the same treatment. Since when did 22 become old?

Young NBA players typically make their largest developmental leaps ( barring massive injury or bizarre restriction of playing time) in the offseason of Year 1 and Year 2, and again in the offseason of Year 2 and Year 3. By the All Star break of Year 3, you tend to see 90 percent of what a player will give you for the rest of his career, without factoring typical age related decline.

The structure of NBA first round picks ( Basically 4 years before the RFA year) is set up around this reality. The previous system was three years guaranteed for rookies when the slotting system was created.

22 is not old or is very old in NBA terms depending on the players tenure. If you spent four years in college ball, you are still in your prime developmental window. But that you stayed so long often is an indicator of your level of talent. If you are 22 but was a one and done and entered the league at 19/20, that's a different story.

Some people will try to cite outliers. Yes, there are outliers, but usually those players showed at least one dominant to very marketable skill from the beginning.

ANYONE in the league could have had Mudiay for pretty much nothing. Was anyone rushing to get him? What does that say?

In pro sports, you have a very very very short time period to get over a very very very large learning curve. This is why most guys fail to make it.

Mudiay does nothing well. The Knicks PG job was and is up for grabs. Is he taking it with his play? Is he dominating to the point where no one can bench him? Well then, **** him. He's a JAG, what Parcells calls Just Another Guy.

People are cutting Frank N slack because he's still in his prime developmental window. Mudiay is not.

If Mudiay wants the job so bad, take it with his play. It's that simple. So many guys here seem to want to hand him something he has not earned. A few OK games isn't going to win you the job. If anything, Mudiay has proven he's not consistent.

The only reason anyone is having this discussion is the Knicks ****ed up their cap and have ****ty contracts no one wants. This is what happens when you **** up your cap sheet, you end up with journeymen and retreads for cheap because you can't spend on anything else.

Next time you see Mudiay fall down, think about Noah. Lee. Rose. Hardaway Jr. Melo. STAT. Bargs. Thomas. Think about every contract that was either too much or too long or both.

When Wayne Chrebet had his chance, the Green Lantern took it. He did it under an idiot like Rich Kotite. He often outplayed the first overall pick in his respective draft class in MeShawn. No one gave him ****, he took it. You want better "treatment", play in a way where no one can give you anything else. No one gave Chrebet ****, he took it. Mudiay is not even in elite physical condition. What does that say? Damn mother****er, it's your job, do some CrossFit. You can literally spend all day working on your game. You have access to the best training, the best facilities, the best coaching, the most resources possible. You think the Nuggets and Knicks wouldn't want Mudiay to be his best? If you need a sports shrink, they'll get you one. If you need better nutrition, they will make it happen. If you need medical care, you get the best in the entire world. But you have to want it bad enough and you have to put in the ****ing work.

When Tom Brady was the FOURTH QB on his own roster, when he was on the edge of his own roster, he was the first one in, the last one out. People said, this ****ing kid just works. He's always in the film room, he's always with the coaches, he's always talking to the veterans.

That Mudiay doesn't even have an effective league average three point shot, something a player can get with grind/attrition, should tell you something.

The ONLY good **** anyone has to say about Mudiay is what they parrot from Fizdale in some fluff answer to some bull**** interview. You know what speaks best? Your play. When your play speaks for you, no one has to speak up for you.

Mudiay is exactly like a 9 year old kid and his parents don't make him do chores and he still gets a fat allowance.

CrushAlot wrote:Mudiay is in the conversation because Frank is struggling so much. Knicks don't trade for Mudiay if they are confident the point guard of the future is on the roster.

Dont agree with this logic AT ALL.

Knicks had Trey, Frank and Jarrett Jack on the roster last year. We all know that Jack would not be long for the Knicks roster. Frank was one of the youngest guys in the league and there was no doubt from anyone that he would take time. Would he start to show his second year or third or later or if at all as a PG?

Trey Burke is also an iffy consideration for the Knicks. Had a decent half season with the Knicks but hasn't kept that magic going.

You still need PG bodies. Trade for them, sign them off the scrap heap. Frank is obviously not ready, but for me one thing has nothing to do with the other, especially when you think about the "condifdence" of the PG future.

I mean, it literally could have meant they wanted to take Mudiay for spin for a year and see what they had.

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Mudiay is in the conversation because Frank is struggling so much. Knicks don't trade for Mudiay if they are confident the point guard of the future is on the roster.

Dont agree with this logic AT ALL.

Knicks had Trey, Frank and Jarrett Jack on the roster last year. We all know that Jack would not be long for the Knicks roster. Frank was one of the youngest guys in the league and there was no doubt from anyone that he would take time. Would he start to show his second year or third or later or if at all as a PG?

Trey Burke is also an iffy consideration for the Knicks. Had a decent half season with the Knicks but hasn't kept that magic going.

You still need PG bodies. Trade for them, sign them off the scrap heap. Frank is obviously not ready, but for me one thing has nothing to do with the other, especially when you think about the "condifdence" of the PG future.

I mean, it literally could have meant they wanted to take Mudiay for spin for a year and see what they had.

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Mudiay is in the conversation because Frank is struggling so much. Knicks don't trade for Mudiay if they are confident the point guard of the future is on the roster.

Dont agree with this logic AT ALL.

Knicks had Trey, Frank and Jarrett Jack on the roster last year. We all know that Jack would not be long for the Knicks roster. Frank was one of the youngest guys in the league and there was no doubt from anyone that he would take time. Would he start to show his second year or third or later or if at all as a PG?

Trey Burke is also an iffy consideration for the Knicks. Had a decent half season with the Knicks but hasn't kept that magic going.

You still need PG bodies. Trade for them, sign them off the scrap heap. Frank is obviously not ready, but for me one thing has nothing to do with the other, especially when you think about the "condifdence" of the PG future.

I mean, it literally could have meant they wanted to take Mudiay for spin for a year and see what they had.

They wanted Elfrid Payton but the price was too high. They were targeting point guards at the deadline after picking a point in the lottery.

Yup. You haven't really added anything. Payton and Mudiay the same thing.