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ISIAH’S DREAM:
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diderotn
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9/17/2004  1:47 PM
You can't judge Isiah performance as a coach, because he wasn't given the time necessary to enjoy the fruit of his labor. He inherited a young team and he did what he could with the hand that he was dealt. I can almost guaranty that if Isiah was given the backing of his GM last year, Indy could have been the NBA champ. They were so ready, they flourished under the guidance of a new coach in less than one year. You can't judge any GM nor coach after 2-3 years, specially if the talent level is not there. It takes at least 4 season.
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Silverfuel
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9/17/2004  2:01 PM
Posted by MS:

So all i am saying is...that i think Isiah gets a lot of credit thanks to Scott Layden, and he is doing a nice job so far, but has made questionable moves....
Of course he gets a lot more credit because he is a huge contrast from Layden but that does not take away from the fact that he very quickly has changed out team to be a good team. I watch other teams and their GMs. I think Isiah has done a better job than 90% of them. I admire him for that. Is that wrong?
Give me one strong Layden transaction, aside from sweetney...There are none!!
I dont think the Sweetney thing was very strong either. There is no way anyone on this forum or anywhere else in the world will try and defend Layden and his moves as the Knicks GM.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
MS
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9/17/2004  2:06 PM
"He had his fair share of good/bad transactions" -tecnomaster

Explain yourself
fishmike
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9/17/2004  2:14 PM
Layden didnt make one good move. Often a move cant be considered good until the next move. Getting guys like McDyess and KVH may have made sense, but they were bad moves because they didnt help the team.

If you want to applaude Layden for drafting Sweetney instead of Collison by all means. If you want to applaud him for drafting Lampe go for it. Sweetney had NO idea the Knicks were taking him and Layden;s explanation was "we've had a good history drafting players from GTown." As for Lampe he probably never heard of him until the crowd started cheering his name.

I mentioned Layden because I think people give Isiah too much love.. its easy when the guy you replace is THAT bad.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
TheloniusMonk
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9/17/2004  2:39 PM
MS, it's one thing to have an extra incentive to beat a certain person but when you take a person like Isiah Thomas who has always been this competetive, that's all irrelivant. Michael Jordan wants, badly, to be a team owner and/or GM....you think he's main motivation to do this is because he got axed by the Wiz? Come one now, look at the man's history of playing and wanting to be around basketball. Do you know many people in the game who was more competetive than Jordan or Bird or Isiah or Magic? There have been people who were AS competetive but it's hard to say anyone was MORE competetive than they.

Point is, when a person is competetive...they're competetive. To say Isiah's primary reason for doing what he's doing is centered on two men is crazy. The man wants to beat the entire world...period. It's like that now and it's always been like that with him. Why is it that he comes to the Knicks and some people think all of a sudden he's become obssessed with centering his life around Larry Bird?
'You can catch me in Hollis at the hero shop!' -Tony Yayo
Kwazimodal
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9/17/2004  2:45 PM
After 30 plus years without a championship at this point I dont give a rat's ass what his motivation is as long as he can deliver the goods.
Nalod
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9/17/2004  5:29 PM
Posted by diderotn:

Dear Nalod


It's all good. Enough with that back & 4th, Isiah will prove you all wrong.

Nobody bashed Isiah, you just telling me him coming here wanna make you cry. The dude got handed over a blank checkbook to remodel the team in NYC. ITs a great job, he could have blowned it up.

Laydens gone get over it. If the team wins, we all win. I root for him, trust me! I rooted for laydog, and will root for all to succeed and bring us a banner!
TheloniusMonk
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9/17/2004  5:46 PM
Nolad, no disrespect, but do you HAVE to mention Scott Layden in almost every post of every thread?
'You can catch me in Hollis at the hero shop!' -Tony Yayo
EnySpree
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9/17/2004  5:48 PM
Isiah wants to win a championship.....

He wants guys here that love the game and want to win and not just win but destroy the competition. He's all about pride and heart. He knows what he is doing.

People are talking about the contracts he's taking on, etc....if you look at the roster the Knicks haven't had a roster this talented in a long while. Isiah has made the Knicks all around the same age and younger.....it's only a matter of time before things start clicking around here.....

Remember Isiah Thomas hasn't even been the GM a year!!!!
Nuff props to Isiah....
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Silverfuel
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9/17/2004  6:21 PM
Posted by Kwazimodal:

After 30 plus years without a championship at this point I dont give a rat's ass what his motivation is as long as he can deliver the goods.
AMEN!!
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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9/17/2004  10:27 PM
Messiah Thomas will deliver us all...

...more than one title.

...multiple Championships...

Good thread, diderotn. Isiah deserves that kind of support. He's gonna get the job done and then some.

[Edited by - HARDCOREKNICKSFAN on 09/17/2004 22:28:40]
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
MaTT4281
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9/17/2004  10:50 PM
Isiah deserves credit. He gave a sub-average team a new face, one that's looking young and competitive, but too many people seem to be taking this to either extreme (either hating or worshipping).

As people have already pointed out, this is Isiah's job, and he is doing it well. Hopefully next year he will show us he deserves this kind of love, but until then, this may be a tad premature.
Bizzy211
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9/18/2004  2:16 AM
Posted by Nalod:
Posted by diderotn:

Here is a GM who is trying to make a name for him. He is not even from N.Y., but he is showing us some real love. There is nothing that I admire the most is when I see a man like Isiah who is willing to turn a dead franchise into a championship caliber again. He has chosen the right ways to improve our squad. He installed the foundation (Starburry), finished with the first floor (Crawfford, Brewers, TT, Naser Vinny, Sweetney, JYD), and is constantly looking for ways to complete the roof.

As a Knickerbockers, I am thrilled. If we continue to support this man, we will win the championship very soon.

Isiah love, man you are full of it!

There is one thing your missing, its his job! All that love is nice if he was a volunteer for the local youth center. But he gets paid 5mil a year and can give a rats ass about you and me unless we are season tix holders, advertisers, and pay to watch on TV.

IM glad for enthusiasm, and hope, which makes for an interesting season, but save that kool aid love for the troops in Iraq whom are fighting for your freedom to drive an large SUV at the whim of our president! Those guys are fighting for country and not politics.

If Isiah wants to take his hummer and help out in Iraq, then he is a hero.

Thanks man, it's about time someone recognizes us military men. Why don't I get any love huh? I do it getting paid about 4.9 million less than Isaiah.
Bizzy Shadyville, NY **soundcloud.com/Bizzy211**
technomaster
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9/18/2004  3:46 AM
Posted by diderotn:

You can't judge Isiah performance as a coach, because he wasn't given the time necessary to enjoy the fruit of his labor. He inherited a young team and he did what he could with the hand that he was dealt. I can almost guaranty that if Isiah was given the backing of his GM last year, Indy could have been the NBA champ. They were so ready, they flourished under the guidance of a new coach in less than one year. You can't judge any GM nor coach after 2-3 years, specially if the talent level is not there. It takes at least 4 season.

No disrespect intended, but it takes at least 4 seasons to do what? Judge a coach? To win a title? To do a respectable job coaching?

Tell that to Greg Popovich or Phil Jackson, who had great success almost immediately. Or even Larry Bird.

The rule doesn't always work though--- Some coaches start out hot, but fade... quickly. Doc Rivers, Rick Pitino.

Others seem to wear out over time (Lenny Wilkens).

Back to Isiah. Yeah, he inherited a relatively young team (discounting Reggie Miller) and coddled Jermaine O'Neal into superstardom. On one hand, I think he deserved a 4th chance. However, 3 successive first round exits doesn't really sell your case.

He also had been widely criticized for his oddball substitution patterns. He also thinks every young PG is a likeness of himself...
Remember how he used to talk about Damon Stoudamire in Toronto (as GM)? Or Jamaal Tinsley-- "I seem a lot of similarities in the way he dribbles the ball..."... even Jamison Brewer... of course Stephon. :)

Yeah. He has his own ideas about winning-- he has a vision of how basketball is supposed to be played. This time, however, he's got the closest facsimile of himself in the NBA today playing for him. He just signed his "Joe Dumars" in Crawford. Somehow Sweetney is supposed to be his Dantley/Aguirre, and JYD or Ariza might be his Rodman. KT could be the Laimbeer, Vin Baker could be the Edwards... Mohammed could be the Salley. I'm not so sure who fits in as the Rick Mahorn.
“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
Silverfuel
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9/18/2004  8:17 AM
Posted by Bizzy211:

Thanks man, it's about time someone recognizes us military men. Why don't I get any love huh? I do it getting paid about 4.9 million less than Isaiah.
Listen man, there is no sane person in the world who would not say that they respect you and the rest of the soldiers more than Isiah Thomas or any other Knick. There is nothing more Noble than what you are doing. Anyone that even tries to compare a soldier to what Isiah Thomas does is missing something in the head.

I am very thankful and grateful to you and the rest of the military. For someone to even mention Isiah's job in the same sentence as your job is insulting your cause. Everyone would rather watch all the soldiers come back home safe than watch the Knicks win a championship. Basically, everyone wants you to succeed over Isiah's success.

[Edited by - Silverfuel on 09/18/2004 08:19:21]
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
TheloniusMonk
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9/18/2004  8:46 AM
No disrespect intended, but it takes at least 4 seasons to do what? Judge a coach? To win a title? To do a respectable job coaching?

Tell that to Greg Popovich or Phil Jackson, who had great success almost immediately. Or even Larry Bird.

The rule doesn't always work though--- Some coaches start out hot, but fade... quickly. Doc Rivers, Rick Pitino.

The only person I'd say truely had imediate success is Pop. Phil Jackson inherited a playoff team in the Chicago Bulls.; Larry Bird ihnherited a playoff team who was always that close to getting to the ECF or even the NBA finals.....but guess who stood in their way. Rick Patino and Doc Rivers inherited teams who were trying to rebuild or were simply a bad team at the time.
But as for Phil Jackson, he inherited a player who would have won a title with or without him in Jordan. Actually I'll say the team of Jordan and Pippen. They say when the Bulls got outed the year that Doug Collins was fired, MJ started working out the day after the playoffs and invited anyone who would participate to do it with him. Pippen joined and so did Grant and a few other Bulls. Now that's dedication. The day after the playoffs? A lot of coaches would be sport a ring or two or three if they had that guy. In Larry Bird's case he got a team of veterans who knew how to win but could never get past New York and Chicago. We beat the pants off of Bird's Pacers every year in the playoffs. The time they finally got past us we were broke up and on our way down.....that's the offseason Ewing was traded I believe. Plus, Bird inherited Larry Brown's Pacers. And if you notice, Bird never really made any changes to Brown's system. Our time was up and Indiana had ONE MORE YEAR than us left in their tank that last year.

I'd say a good coach is a coach who can turn around a loosing situation and make it a winning one. Jerry Sloan and Paul Silas come to mind.

As for the Pistons/Kinicks comparison....that was real observant. Never thought about it that way. Only thing is I'd say if Sweetney really came on strong he could be our Rick Mahorn. I'd say Crawford is more of a Vinnie Johnson than a Dumars. And also, JYD and Rodman are similar. Of course you've got Steph as Isiah. Houston is ONLY similar to Dumars in demeanor. But he doesn;'t have half the defense. But he can shoot better than Joe. I see Tim Thomas (and Ariza I hope) attempting to fill Aguirre's hightops. It's very difficult to compare Lambeer to Kurt though. If we had a bigman who couls step out and shoot the three like hime we'd be dangerous!
'You can catch me in Hollis at the hero shop!' -Tony Yayo
crzymdups
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9/18/2004  8:53 AM
I think Isiah is definitely building this team in the image of his Pistons teams. The only problem I'd say is lacking is a team defensive discipline.

Also, I could see Tim or Ariza playing a Dantley-type role.

But I don't see anyone playing Rodman or Laimbeer. These are the two gaping holes we have and I believe Isiah's tenure will truly be judged by his ability to acquire at least one of those types. I don't think this team can make a DEEP playoff run without one.

We shall see though.

Also, to judge a coach like Phil Jackson is ridiculous. He always goes to where he has two superstars and the team is right on the cusp of a championship. That's not coaching, so much as its poaching. He's a great coach, sure, but to judge a coach's 'ability' when it's really based on the talent you have - that's a little silly. Some coaches like Riles and the VG bros can eke a few more wins out of a team by sheer will and imposing D, but you'll notice their teams tend to either break down or turn on the coach after a while.
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timmyTtop
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9/18/2004  11:12 AM
"save that kool aid love for the troops in Iraq whom are fighting for your freedom to drive an large SUV at the whim of our president! Those guys are fighting for country and not politics. "


sry buddy but they get their college tuition paid for.
Marv
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9/18/2004  11:28 AM
Ahh, 1 of my favorite topics - the Bad Boys and Knicks comparison. I too think Isiah's moving steadily in that direction but I think evryone has to remember (IMHO of course) that this Knicks team is LIGHT YEARS away from the Bad Boys in talent. Stephon (whom I happen to love) does once every 3 or 4 games what Isiah used to do almost nightly - will a team to victory. I think the biggest goal for Isiah is to continue to get inside Stephon's head and get him to play at his best much more often.

Joe Dumars was IMO one of the most underrated players ever (like Sam Jones). But I love the pickup of Crawford and I think he has a s**tload of potential to fill that role.

I could see Allan playing the Microwave role. We've all seen him when he's been in an aggressive mood - he's a freakin machine. I'd love to see him recapture his health and go after that role on this team.

Dantly and Aguirre were incredible loads on the blocks and endlessly clever scorers - really relentless personality types on the court too. If Sweetney progresses at the same rate that he did in college, why couldn't he fit that? Remember how Barkley's game changed in the NBA once he changed his body?

You guys are right - we have nothing underneath to compare to Rodman, Salley, Edwards, Mahorn, Laimbeer. Wouldn't it be great if JYD provided a bunch of that and Baker came back like the first 1/2 of last year and Nazr played with consistency? Sweetney of course could be big on the boards for us too and I still think KT can contribute a lot, I haven't written him off at all. But we are real weak compared to the Bad Boys in the power positions.

That leaves the 2 x-factors - TT and Ariza (I just think Penny's too past his prime to be a factor). These 2 could make up for a lot of other deficiencies on the team. but I don't know - Ariza's too young and green and TT might just be too much of a head case.

[Edited by - marv on 09/18/2004 11:36:16]
technomaster
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9/18/2004  2:28 PM
Dantley and Aguirre were two of the most effective, aggressive, "power" small forwards in the game. Both were relatively short but effective post up players.

Before I get too deep into the Pistons thing, I wanna talk about Phil. You can say all you want about him going to teams with superstars, but look at what he did on the Bulls.

Tough to look at a team and say "yeah, but they had Jordan." At the time, you could look at Jordan and Dominique Wilkins and say they were similar players. Selfish scorers.

Phil changed that. He convinced Jordan to sacrifice a little of his game to make his teammates better. He helped turn Pippen and Horace Grant into All-star caliber players. He found a way to make mediocre guards like BJ Armstrong/Kerr/Hodges/Tucker into HUGE role players. He even found a nice role for JoJo English. ;) He also was one of the few people who could reign in Rodman enough to win some titles (instead of blow 'em). He made due with a (pathetic) center tandem of Bill Wennington/Will Purdue/Bill Cartwright/Longley/Scott Williams.

In short, he turned Jordan into a winner.

Break it down this way: Jordan before Phil. 0 rings. After Phil: 6.
Shaq before Phil: 0 rings (in spite of winning various personal accolades). After: 3.

It's tougher to pick Phil apart when he joined the Lakers. He actually inherited a WEAKER team than the previous years. Shaq arrived in 96-97. He had NVE/Eddie Jones/Elden Campbell as teammates. (and the rookie version of Kobe).

These three were essentially replaced by an aging Ron Harper, Glen Rice, and AC Green.

So regarding Phil as a coach: he's not well liked by the media because he toys with them. Other coaches don't like him because of the mind games he players. But respect the numbers, respect the accomplishments, respect the fact that he's excellent at managing egos and making them play together within a system-- he gets the attention of superstars like no one else. He's also great at making young players play under control within a system at turning veterans into excellent role players.

“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
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