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diderotn
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9/17/2004  9:15 AM
Here is a GM who is trying to make a name for him. He is not even from N.Y., but he is showing us some real love. There is nothing that I admire the most is when I see a man like Isiah who is willing to turn a dead franchise into a championship caliber again. He has chosen the right ways to improve our squad. He installed the foundation (Starburry), finished with the first floor (Crawfford, Brewers, TT, Naser Vinny, Sweetney, JYD), and is constantly looking for ways to complete the roof.

As a Knickerbockers, I am thrilled. If we continue to support this man, we will win the championship very soon.
The true Knickabocker..........
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tkf
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9/17/2004  10:08 AM
I will drink some of the kool aid, and agree with you...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
MS
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9/17/2004  10:32 AM
Why do you admire him?

Because he is trying to do his job? Because he is getting paid millions of dollars? Because he had plenty of cap relief to go out and get some players?

Please explain, if you think this team is going to be championship ready your dreaming. I like some of the moves and its nice to see fresh faces, but don't think for one minute Isiah is doing this for the fans. He is a smooth talker, well spoken, always wants to appear like he is doing the right thing.

But what is his true motive? Hate and envy. He has no love for Bird and wants to beat him at all costs. He envy'Joe Dumars, he needs to leave a legacy off the court, he has tried and failed up to this point.

I am with you an everyone that wants, needs, and longs for a championship, give him credit when its due, not before. I hope for everyone's sake that crawford turns into the player he envisioned, that TT finally realizes his potential, that lampe doesn't turn out to be an effective player, that he didn't make the wrong commitment to Marbury.

But only time will tell if Isiah has proven a wise leader or someone that is looking for attention standing in the tunnel for all to see. Isiah good luck, I hope what you have envisioned takes shape...
Marv
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9/17/2004  10:47 AM
Good post, MS. I fall somewhere between you and diderotn. I do give Isiah a lot of credit because he took action right away, cleared out some "untradable" dead wood, and gave us younger and better players than we had before. Definitely not good enough to get us where we want to go, but much much better than where we were and definitely in the right direction. You're right, that's what he's paid to do and he does have a lot of ego in it, but I'll still give him a lot of admiration for what he's doing as long as he keeps making moves in the right direction and the team responds with wins.
Nalod
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9/17/2004  10:54 AM
Posted by diderotn:

Here is a GM who is trying to make a name for him. He is not even from N.Y., but he is showing us some real love. There is nothing that I admire the most is when I see a man like Isiah who is willing to turn a dead franchise into a championship caliber again. He has chosen the right ways to improve our squad. He installed the foundation (Starburry), finished with the first floor (Crawfford, Brewers, TT, Naser Vinny, Sweetney, JYD), and is constantly looking for ways to complete the roof.

As a Knickerbockers, I am thrilled. If we continue to support this man, we will win the championship very soon.

Isiah love, man you are full of it!

There is one thing your missing, its his job! All that love is nice if he was a volunteer for the local youth center. But he gets paid 5mil a year and can give a rats ass about you and me unless we are season tix holders, advertisers, and pay to watch on TV.

IM glad for enthusiasm, and hope, which makes for an interesting season, but save that kool aid love for the troops in Iraq whom are fighting for your freedom to drive an large SUV at the whim of our president! Those guys are fighting for country and not politics.

If Isiah wants to take his hummer and help out in Iraq, then he is a hero.
diderotn
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9/17/2004  11:05 AM
Offcourse, some of you would always find something to disagree about. Remember that there a lot of GMs around the league who are doing nothing but collecting a paycheck. We should give thanks for what we are getting from ours so far. Be considerate. After all, Layden was one of those GMs that I have mentioned above.

Isiah love, man you are full of it!

There is one thing your missing, its his job! All that love is nice if he was a volunteer for the local youth center. But he gets paid 5mil a year and can give a rats ass about you and me unless we are season tix holders, advertisers, and pay to watch on TV.

IM glad for enthusiasm, and hope, which makes for an interesting season, but save that kool aid love for the troops in Iraq whom are fighting for your freedom to drive an large SUV at the whim of our president! Those guys are fighting for country and not politics.

If Isiah wants to take his hummer and help out in Iraq, then he is a hero.
The true Knickabocker..........
fishmike
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9/17/2004  11:24 AM
I think hate and envy is a little strong, and I dont buy for a minute these are motivators. I think the guys just ultra competitive and wants to win... plain and simple. Beating guys along the way is just a bonus. This is like when you hear someone like Paul Pierce talk about getting passed in the draft. He's a great ball player because he works hard and wants to win.

If Isiah continues this turnaround and brings a title to the Knicks it wont because he was motivated out of hate and envy. That well dries up quickly and clouds your thinking anyway.

So far I like Isiah's move but see them all as him just doing what he should do: create a plan and work on excecuting it (get younger, more talented, more athletic).

I think the ISiah love comes from being Laydenized for 5 years. If youve been hungry for 5 years even Dominos pizza will taste good.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
TMS
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9/17/2004  11:28 AM
just like fish said, the fact that Isiah has a plan & is making moves towards fulfilling that plan is what i like about him so far...i haven't always agreed w/how he has handled things (the way he handled the Don Chaney firing for example), but overall, i think it's fair to say his mere presence here has turned the Knicks into a desirable place to play for the name brand players in the league.

now whether or not his moves work out & bring a championship to NY is the next test...i'm holding off on judgement until a couple years from now when we will be able to get a more fair assessment of that, but so far, so good imo.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Nalod
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9/17/2004  12:00 PM
Posted by diderotn:

Offcourse, some of you would always find something to disagree about. Remember that there a lot of GMs around the league who are doing nothing but collecting a paycheck. We should give thanks for what we are getting from ours so far. Be considerate. After all, Layden was one of those GMs that I have mentioned above.
[quote]

How manytimes we gonna tie in Layden to win an arguement? Its always "yeah, but its better than Layden!"

Layden got fired. Gm's get fired when they suck. Get over it, Isiah was not talked out of retirement, took a pay cut, or left his youth program to come manage the Knicks. He took a job.

Isiah is from Indiana. He is not showing love, he is showing up for a paycheck.

"There is nothing that I admire the most is when I see a man like Isiah who is willing to turn a dead franchise into a championship caliber again."

THis is the most admirable character trait in a man you can find?

Since you bought up Layden, If you talk to people who know him, you will find a ton of character in that man. Isiah is competitive polished guy whom most of us wish nothing but success in his post athletic career. He has use his status as a great player to get opportinities not offered to more qualified people. He has yet to accomplish the expectations many have had for him. Sort of like the team he has put together.

The jury is still way out for Isiah. So far he has bought his way out of the mess we got into. Yes, he has done some nice things, but it required money first and foremost. The thing he has done is elevate the exposure of the team, which is paramount to sell the product. Kind of like when Oprah gave away those cars. Pontiac got way more than 7.5 million dollars of exposure by doing it.

It will be settled on the court.

[Edited by - nalod on 09/17/2004 12:04:38]
diderotn
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9/17/2004  12:21 PM
Dear Nalod


It's all good. Enough with that back & 4th, Isiah will prove you all wrong.
The true Knickabocker..........
jazz74
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9/17/2004  12:31 PM
the one thing i like about isaih is that he shoots from the hip. he does not leave anyone in the dark and deals with people straight instead of sneaky. he learned his lesson in indy so he is conducting businenss the way he thinks should be run. i think isaih and dumars are very alike as gm. they made controversial moves. who would have thought in 2000 that detroit would get the better deal of the hill trade or in 2002 the better deal of the stackhouse trade? he took a lot of abuse but he had a vision and it ultimately worked. isaih is the same way. he has a concise plan that he is following. he is bringing players that fit his mold and exiting players that don't. he is honest but very methodical. briggs constantly post about the raptors because they do not know what direction they are heading. but isaih is not shy about telling what direction he has our team going whether you like ( which some of you don't, right briggs?) or not.
diderotn
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9/17/2004  12:33 PM
good post Jazz
The true Knickabocker..........
Marv
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9/17/2004  12:58 PM
Posted by jazz74:

the one thing i like about isaih is that he shoots from the hip. he does not leave anyone in the dark and deals with people straight instead of sneaky. he learned his lesson in indy so he is conducting businenss the way he thinks should be run. i think isaih and dumars are very alike as gm. they made controversial moves. who would have thought in 2000 that detroit would get the better deal of the hill trade or in 2002 the better deal of the stackhouse trade? he took a lot of abuse but he had a vision and it ultimately worked. isaih is the same way. he has a concise plan that he is following. he is bringing players that fit his mold and exiting players that don't. he is honest but very methodical. briggs constantly post about the raptors because they do not know what direction they are heading. but isaih is not shy about telling what direction he has our team going whether you like ( which some of you don't, right briggs?) or not.

OT but I so agree with you about Dumars. All last year I posted on another board that because of Dumars, and no other reason, I was going with Darko ultimately being a better player for Detroit in the long run than Melo. You can imagine the pushback I got on that one. If Isiah can approximate Dumars, we're in good shape.
TheloniusMonk
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9/17/2004  1:01 PM
MS, you're a funny guy.

"But what is his true motive? Hate and envy. He has no love for Bird and wants to beat him at all costs. He envy'Joe Dumars"

LOL. So i guess what you're saying is that Isiah hates Bird and envy's Dumars? How could his motoves be envy of Dumars? When he took the job as GM Dumars and the Pistons weren't the world champs. Nor was anyone giving them that credit. So how could he take a job out of envy of another guy who at the time wasn't considered a great GM himself? That's ridiculous.

As for Bird.....you say he wants to beat Bird at any cost? He already did in '87, '88, '89 and 90. Michael Jordan took it from there. Sure he'd like to beat him as GM just as much as he'd like to beat every other GM in the business.

In college, when Isiah won the championship....was it Bird that pushed him to be so competetive and have a knack for victory then? Nope, he was a competetive man then and he is now. Some guys are just driven. To say his motive as GM is to show up Bird is to disreguard the fact that this man has been a competetive leader since day one. When he was a highschool player, college player, NBA player and coach...and now GM. HE OBVIOUSLY WANTS TO BEAT ALL CURRENT GM'S. Any man who takes a job just to beat one other person would be a nutcase.

When he played he wanted to beat Magic, he wanted to beat Bird, he wanted to beat Barkley, he wanted to beat Malone and Stockton as well as Jordan....and he beat them all numerous times.

If a man is competeive he's competetive...period.

Paul Silas was fired by Hornets. You think he brings his Cavs to practice every other day just to beat the Hornets? No, the man wants to win a championship. Think Lenny Wilkens came to New York as Knicks head coach with a heart full of hate wanting to beat the Raptors? Ridiculous.

So to say a guy's motivation as a professional is to just beat one guy is crazy. Especially when the guy has already beaten the guy on other levels.
'You can catch me in Hollis at the hero shop!' -Tony Yayo
tkf
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9/17/2004  1:02 PM
I think people like to remind themselves of layden because it just shows you how far we have come, lets be honest, basketball in NY was not fun at all, and although I agree that layden is a class act, he was just stealing a check as a GM of the knicks, plain and simple... In isiah, we have a guy who is driven to win, a guy who knows talent and understands this league, a guy who is respected by the players. This is great for NY. just great. I am going to drink the Kool aid, because now I see a knicks team that has young, athletic talent, I mean just think a couple of years ago, I had to endure watching spoon, othella, eisley and shandon on the floor at the same time! No fan should be subject to that torture... IT came in and held people responsible, maybe some people will consider his moves drastic, but our situation called for drastic measures. I for one am happy he is here, and as long as he has us headed in the right direction, I am 100% behind him..

[Edited by - tkf on 09/17/2004 13:03:49]
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
MS
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9/17/2004  1:13 PM
Everyone has different motives for being where they are. Obviously he is a competitor, but if you think it doesn't kill him that Joe won an NBA title your out of your mind. You don't think if the Pacers won last year Isiah would have been out of his mind...

Herb Brooks was left off the Olympic team that one a gold medal, and he made it his mission to coach that team so he could have that oppurtunity...

Your out of your mind if you don't think there people who motivate themselves by resentment, frustration, and even hate, lets be serious...You work hard to get yourself where you are, but if you think he has any love for Bird and doesn't want to beat the **** out of the Pacers everytime they play each other you must have forget when the Knicks went nuts when the beat the Pacers at home. I remember Steph saying i know how much it meant to isiah......

So i think you should look at the entire picture
Silverfuel
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9/17/2004  1:33 PM
Yes Isiah has a job to do and yes he is getting paid millions of $'s for doing it but he is doing it well for the fans.

MS: What you are saying is true, he is getting paid but he is doing an amazing job which is what I admire. Everyone in pro-sports is doing their job and getting paid a lot of money for it. Our team: The Knicks are full of players that are getting paid a lot to do their job but we still admire them dont we?

We will give him credit for a championship when he gets one and not before but we also want to give him credit for getting us a lot closer to that goal that Layden EVER could get us.

Nalod: Every single player on the knicks is doing their job too. None of them are volunteers. I honestly believe they are doing this with keeping the fans needs in perspective. That is also a part of their job but Layden never acknowledged that! Isiah is which is why diderotn, me and other might admire him.

You can use hate and envy as a motivator but I think what motivates him the most is to win. I really think he wants to win a Championship as a GM to win a championship as a GM not to show up Joe Dumars and or Bird.

Isiah Thomas has done a damn good job of clearing out the waste and adding talent to our roster. I have real hope this season that the Knicks will clear the .500 dream very quickly. I think we would have suffered under Layden and his hand picked players for YEARS but Isiah seems to have fixed that in 1/2 a season.

Yes it is his job and he is getting paid just like Houston, Marbury, Penny, Craw, KT. Dont we admire, cheer and root for the players? Why can we not love, admire and cheer for Isiah? If Marbury, Houston, Penny, Crawford, TT and Nazr say that they want to win a championship for the Knick fans, why can we not say the same about Isiah? I think we can.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
technomaster
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9/17/2004  1:35 PM
GMs, by nature, are driven to put the most marketable product on the floor--- this usually means putting together a winning team. Failing that, you want a team that could at least be entertaining to the fans.

It has made changes that have DEFINITELY made the Knicks a more compelling team--- namely, the move to get Marbury. The homegrown hero story is one that fans can feel good about. The addition of Crawford adds speed, youth, and athleticism into the mix and the big word POTENTIAL.

While I think that *any* playoff team has a shot at the finals, I don't really think we've established ourselves as a team that can win consistently. We're a far cry from those mid-90s Knick teams that were good for 55-60 wins/season. IMHO, things will have to go really well for us to win 50.

I don't necessarily feel that we need to repeated disrespect Layden, but for him, signing class acts was part of his mantra. He had his fair share of good/bad transactions, and a number of key players got injured (OR ended their careers abruptly).

Isiah has been very aggressive and he has come into this job with a different attitude. He's done some interesting things with the contracts he inherited and he has definitely created a buzz in NY.

The thing that I fear, however, is that we'll be saddled with so many bad contracts that the team will crumble under the weight. You can imagine that after 2-3 years of adding salary, ownership will get a little anxious to see results.

A big reason he was let go as coach from Indy is that in spite of growing expectations, he never managed to get the team out of the first round. As GM of the Knicks, he will absolutely need to make progress on last year--- we're talking about more than just winning a single playoff game.

“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
MS
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9/17/2004  1:43 PM
Anyone on this site could have run the Knicks better than Layden.. I firmly believe that I could have built the Knicks into a cotender, because, and I say this honestly I didn't like one move he made.

From Chris Childs and a pick to toronto for Mark Jackson and Bogues
To Rice, Longley, and Knight for Ewing, then compound the deal into giving Shandon Anderson 42 million, maker matters worse by sending Bogues to Dallas for Eisley.

There is not a single move he made that made sense. He brought in Spoon for way over market value, and signed him early. We could have used Mason for two years.

The McDyess deal was stupid because even if he turned into the player he was, Layden was only slowing the rebuilding process...

And the worst decision he ever made was giving Houston 100 million....No one was going to give him 70....

The list is endless, you could bring in Elgin Baylor and he would look like Jesus Christ next to Layden....Someone who trades one slow, underachieve with a broke ass jumper for another.

So all i am saying is...that i think Isiah gets a lot of credit thanks to Scott Layden, and he is doing a nice job so far, but has made questionable moves....
MS
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9/17/2004  1:44 PM
Give me one strong Layden transaction, aside from sweetney...There are none!!
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