[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

OT - NY Giants Teardown Underway
Author Thread
nykshaknbake
Posts: 22239
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/15/2003
Member: #492
10/25/2018  12:46 AM
HofstraBBall wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:Do think it is getting close for Eli to move on but disagree that it is entirely his fault.

He's old for an NFL player, his production has been in decline, he plays a game increasingly out of style in the NFL and the worst possible style for his offensive line, he makes way too much for his production and will almost certainly never play in another postseason game as a Giant.

There is really NO reason to play him after Sunday. But you can't just move the scout team QB into the line-up in 4 days.

Give Eli a home game against a division rival for fans to say goodbye. Then going into the bye week promote Lauletta so he has a full 2 weeks (next game is a Mon night game) to prepare and see what's up over the last 7 games.

Not as bad as you make him to be. His completion percentage is currently higher than any of his previous years. So is his QBR. On pace to pass for more yards than every year except maybe 2011. Low Int count. Is he slowing dowm and an easier to expose with a bad O Line? yep. But no way the main cause and no way a coach is going to bench a 2 time SB champ when he is putting up respectable numbers. Would be narrow finger pointing. Btw, not really a good idea to stick a guy with no QB experience behind a struggling offensive line.


Is he the future of the franchise....think everyone knows he is not.

COmpletion percentage is purely a result of him throwing short checkdown passes, sometimes behind the line of scrimmage. He's still the best QB on the roster, but at this point finding out if Lauletta has a future has to be priority one.

AUTOADVERT
Knickoftime
Posts: 23735
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/13/2011
Member: #3370

10/25/2018  12:56 AM
nykshaknbake wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:Do think it is getting close for Eli to move on but disagree that it is entirely his fault.

He's old for an NFL player, his production has been in decline, he plays a game increasingly out of style in the NFL and the worst possible style for his offensive line, he makes way too much for his production and will almost certainly never play in another postseason game as a Giant.

There is really NO reason to play him after Sunday. But you can't just move the scout team QB into the line-up in 4 days.

Give Eli a home game against a division rival for fans to say goodbye. Then going into the bye week promote Lauletta so he has a full 2 weeks (next game is a Mon night game) to prepare and see what's up over the last 7 games.

Not as bad as you make him to be. His completion percentage is currently higher than any of his previous years. So is his QBR. On pace to pass for more yards than every year except maybe 2011. Low Int count. Is he slowing dowm and an easier to expose with a bad O Line? yep. But no way the main cause and no way a coach is going to bench a 2 time SB champ when he is putting up respectable numbers. Would be narrow finger pointing. Btw, not really a good idea to stick a guy with no QB experience behind a struggling offensive line.


Is he the future of the franchise....think everyone knows he is not.

COmpletion percentage is purely a result of him throwing short checkdown passes, sometimes behind the line of scrimmage. He's still the best QB on the roster, but at this point finding out if Lauletta has a future has to be priority one.

I think its clear Hofstra is interpreting the argument to start Lauletta is some sort or backhanded disparagement of Manning.

Its not.

Manning is awesome. Glad he's been a Giant.

It's just time and it isn't even mostly his fault.

TripleThreat
Posts: 22980
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/24/2012
Member: #3997

10/25/2018  12:58 AM
Moonangie wrote:Thoughts on the next moves and/or advisability of this rebuild?


Basic thoughts

- Eli Mannings production can be argued a ton of different ways. The biggest test of any QB1 in the NFL is if he gets his team consistently in the end zone or not. That's it. Other things matter, but that matters the most. It's a core mantra of classic Parcells methodology and Tuna is right in this regard. But in terms of VALUE, a players production has to be considered against his cap hit. ON a smaller contract, Mannings production is fine. On his current contract, it's not a value. Value on the field and value against the resource management scenario are two entirely different things. If Peyton Manning had an MVP year, but cost his team 60 million against their cap, does it matter that he had a MVP year if you can't build a team around him?

- Teams shy away from spending heavy in cap cost and draft capital on the offensive line because of several issues

A) Players are playing heavier, and are bigger, and it's reaching uncharted territory. It creates a more complex situation with injuries. You can spend a ton on your O line, but if most are injured and out for the year, how does that help you?

B) Many teams are running two TE sets or a 3 WR set as their base offense. Third down backs have become quasi type starters. More and more teams are using their nickel package as their base defense. More and more teams are seeing the value in investing in core special teams players ( guys like Matthew Slater) This changes the market valuation in skill players, also with QBs commanding such large salaries, the cap trade off has to come somewhere and for many teams, it's their O line.

- Defensively, what matters how is generating a pass rush SPECIFICALLY IN THE 4th QUARTER. Yes, it matters all game, yes doing so without blitzing matters, but late game pass rush is critical to a team's success. Also ball security and generating turnovers. A lot of on the edge things you see from defenders usually stems from trying to generate a turnover.

- Rosters need to expand. With injuries and specialization, teams are simply running too short handed every Sunday. Some of this has deeper complexity ( league expansion concerns, number of votes shifting, more people vying to gain service time and accruing benefits,etc)

- Teams are realizing they are better off tanking and gunning for a top of the draft QB1 prospect who they hope will break out in his rookie cost control cycle. Trading up in the draft in the first round, even marginally so, is so cost prohibitive, that teams recognize in a QB dominated league, it might be better to punt a year in season and consider the next 3-5-8 years in the future.

- I don't have a problem with the Giants taking Barkley. If they feel he was the best player on their board and the most likely to have an impact AND they felt they didn't believe in any of the QB1 prospects, I think that's fine. Yes, there are positional value concerns, but if you don't believe in a player, then you don't. If you don't believe in the draft class for QBs, then you don't.

- The key issue for any NFL teams success is THREE CONSECUTIVE DEEP DRAFTS WHERE YOU HIT ON MULTIPLE "BLUES" Blues are impact players. Much of what happened with the Seahawks is seen as a modern blue print ( young QB still in cost control, several consecutive deep drafts)

- Part of the fallout with Eli Manning is his dad. Archie is.... well....Archie is an acquired taste. While some in the organization might not want to see Eli go, informally, everyone in the league would be happy to see his dad go. Far away. Like forever far away. Personally, I like Archie, but then again, I know how to get along with *******s. (Hello, jrodmc, have some tea and crumpets)

If someone asked me what the Giants NEED to get better.

My answer is THREE CONSECUTIVE DEEP AND SUCCESSFUL DRAFTS

That's it. Do that for ANY NFL team and things will magically become awesome. The one benefit of being a team that hurts everywhere is you can aim for best player available instead of need based drafting ( more in line for contenders)

Nalod
Posts: 62928
Alba Posts: 153
Joined: 12/24/2003
Member: #508
USA
10/25/2018  7:22 AM
Good take Triple. I was hoping though for some comparison to prove your point, you know like he ELI is like some chick You got married to and it was great sex for a long time but now its kind of dry. ITs not really her fault but she costs a lot of money and.........
2020-21-The year of eating Crow
HofstraBBall
Posts: 24631
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/21/2015
Member: #6192

10/25/2018  7:53 AM    LAST EDITED: 10/25/2018  10:15 AM
Knickoftime wrote:?? What's with using bold instead of quotes??

HofstraBBall wrote: So you agree there is no point to changing Eli..good

No, the point is cutting Manning after the seasons opens up $17m in cap space. Did not know Fred danced this into a value debate? And who do you have that will replace him? What does that have to do with our original conversation of benching Eli this year?

The point in benching him after Sunday is seeing what they have in Lauletta, who they didn't draft to be a career back-up.

Or lets just make friendly wager that Eli will infact be the 2019-2020 QB

You can make it ANY wager you like. Friendly, belligerent, expensive. Name your terms. I'm in.
Couple of beers at Knicks game? However, your Fred Astaire like moves don't give much confidence to fair wagering rules

Again, just cuz you say it does not make it true. Stats to back it up?

Sure.

37
$23.2m vs. $6.2m
Least pts scored in the NFL since the start of the 2017 season.
39% completion % in the red zone. Your forgot his age. Cuz that is what you will say when I mention that by this standard we would have to bench Beckham as well.

There absolutely is a point. But if you did not understand, in football the offensive line is the most important part of any offense. First point of contact. But that does not matter. Lets just bench all the players fans think are the issue.

Huh?

I'm not suggesting keeping the O-line in tact. I'm suggesting retool the line AND the QB at the same time.

You seem to want to argue with someone who doesn't think the O-line is a big problem, I'm just not that person.

And playing a 4th round QB will? For who? The 4th round QB auditioning for his next bench role with another team?

He may show SOME of why the Giants used a draft pick and a roster spot on QB. He may not, the point is you find out one way or another. Guess I have to answer this again. Coaching staff has done this and is doing that every practice. Think they know more than some armchair fan.

Which is one more point than playing Manning.

What's with using quotes instead of bold?

I take back my Fred Astaire line. This smells more like a practicing ambulance chasing attorney. So now we are discussing if Eli is worth his salary/ should the Giants waive him? Is this what you do? Throw out more debatable points once your original one has crashed? Or do you just ask a bundle of questions so that you dont have to answer any of your inaccurate points? I will wait for your long list of follow up questions as I list my summary.

Is Eli the main reason for the Giants record? I said NO the offensive line has been for years.
Should we bench Eli? I said No as he is not the main problem or performing at an alarmingly bad level.
What is our main proplem on offense? I said the Offensive Line
What should be addressed in the offseason? Offensive line, secondary and pass rush.
Do we have anyone worth benching Eli for? I said HELL NO but the coaches are best to make this decision.

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
HofstraBBall
Posts: 24631
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/21/2015
Member: #6192

10/25/2018  8:02 AM    LAST EDITED: 10/25/2018  10:08 AM
nykshaknbake wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:Do think it is getting close for Eli to move on but disagree that it is entirely his fault.

He's old for an NFL player, his production has been in decline, he plays a game increasingly out of style in the NFL and the worst possible style for his offensive line, he makes way too much for his production and will almost certainly never play in another postseason game as a Giant.

There is really NO reason to play him after Sunday. But you can't just move the scout team QB into the line-up in 4 days.

Give Eli a home game against a division rival for fans to say goodbye. Then going into the bye week promote Lauletta so he has a full 2 weeks (next game is a Mon night game) to prepare and see what's up over the last 7 games.

Not as bad as you make him to be. His completion percentage is currently higher than any of his previous years. So is his QBR. On pace to pass for more yards than every year except maybe 2011. Low Int count. Is he slowing dowm and an easier to expose with a bad O Line? yep. But no way the main cause and no way a coach is going to bench a 2 time SB champ when he is putting up respectable numbers. Would be narrow finger pointing. Btw, not really a good idea to stick a guy with no QB experience behind a struggling offensive line.


Is he the future of the franchise....think everyone knows he is not.

COmpletion percentage is purely a result of him throwing short checkdown passes, sometimes behind the line of scrimmage. He's still the best QB on the roster, but at this point finding out if Lauletta has a future has to be priority one.

Agree with analysis. Would add that most check downs are the result of limited time caused by a challenged offensive line.

Look, Knickoftime will use his impressive long line of questioning to change the subject matter of a discussion faster than a scorned jealous ex wife does after she finds out you moved on. But I agree that Manning is coming to the end of his time. Question for me is what do we do? What most short sighted fans usually do. Which is change the shinny object throwing the ball or do we focus on the real/major issues we have.

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
Moonangie
Posts: 24550
Alba Posts: 5
Joined: 7/9/2009
Member: #2788

10/25/2018  9:46 AM
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:Do think it is getting close for Eli to move on but disagree that it is entirely his fault.

He's old for an NFL player, his production has been in decline, he plays a game increasingly out of style in the NFL and the worst possible style for his offensive line, he makes way too much for his production and will almost certainly never play in another postseason game as a Giant.

There is really NO reason to play him after Sunday. But you can't just move the scout team QB into the line-up in 4 days.

Give Eli a home game against a division rival for fans to say goodbye. Then going into the bye week promote Lauletta so he has a full 2 weeks (next game is a Mon night game) to prepare and see what's up over the last 7 games.

Not as bad as you make him to be. His completion percentage is currently higher than any of his previous years. So is his QBR. On pace to pass for more yards than every year except maybe 2011. Is he slowing dowm and an easier to expose with a bad O Line? yep. But no way the main cause and no way a coach is going to bench a 2 time SB champ when he is putting up respectable numbers. Would be narrow finger pointing. Btw, not really a good idea to stick a guy with no QB experience behind a struggling offensive line.

His arguable level of play is beside the point. His level of blame is beside the point.

What is the point of playing him?

You can't say its to give the Giants a better shot in the remaining 8 games because at 1-6(7) that's actually counterproductive.

So what's the point of playing him the last 8 games?

If it's not to throw Lauletta to the wolves, okay, then play Tanney.

Playing Eli Manning is officially pointless unless you put stock in some nostalgic farewell tour.

Arguable was you original claim about his play. Actual was my post.

I see a player who has NO hope of extending a play, ever. I see a player who is still clearly more comfortable with check downs then taking the time to look downfield. I see a player who is 100% understandably gun shy.

The measure of an NFL QB isn't a hot quarter or a good completion % and some down the field plays against one of the NFL's worst Ds. You can't say the best snippets of Manning is what his level of play would be all the time under the right circumstances (of which there is no hope for being).

You are who you are, full body of work included. He's not a good NFL QB in October of 2018 anymore, and again, there's absolutely no shame in that.

As for the point of playing either of the two back ups? Who have no experience and are clearly not the future. Pointless.

The current front office drafted one of the QB's with a 4th round selection, and since they didn't make him the back-up in their preseason plan to be competitive, they didn't draft him to be the back-up. Whether they drafted a project or not still suggests they drafted him because they liked something about him.

So let's see what he can do.

To bench the guy that is still performing at his previous level in spite of one of the worst O lines in the league. Pointless. No?

You've responded to question in the negative.

What is the point of playing Manning the last 8 games?

Please try to answer by endorsing the point of playing him directly, and not just finding fault in the other options.

Playing Eli Manning on the back-half of the schedule is a good thing for the future of the NY Giants because _________________________?

Really good post. Agree about KL being a "let's see what we got" project as a starter. Seems like the right time to make the switch is in the first game after BYE.

No question that we will reclaim the $17mm in cap space by not keeping Eli on the roster. Any player not in the plans (or not fitting schemes) will be gone. Thus the trades of Snacks and Apple.

Knickoftime
Posts: 23735
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/13/2011
Member: #3370

10/25/2018  10:21 AM    LAST EDITED: 10/25/2018  10:53 AM
HofstraBBall wrote:And who do you have that will replace him?

Lauletta, a 2019 draft pick, a trade or free agent pick-up. Lots of options. The point is, the 2019 Giants aren't a playoff team. They're a building to 2020-2021 team.

Who the Giants hope will be their franchise QB which will either be Lauletta or MUCH more likely their #1 draft pick or trade acquisition. The answer is very likely the draft pick and whether he starts the year or begins with a clipboard who the other QB is really doesn't make that much of a difference.

What does that have to do with our original conversation of benching Eli this year?

Since the Giants would be insane to pay Manning $24m to Q-B a 1-4 win team next year, and since the draft is now the point of their 2018 season and since the Giants spent draft and roster capital to see what they have in Lauletta, it makes every sense in the world to see what they have in Lauletta.

Again, in a year in which they intended to compete, THAT's why they spent a pick and a roster spot on a third QB to eventually do.

So you do it.

Couple of Knicks tickets? However, your Fred Astaire like moves don't give much confidence to the game rules

I'm willing to send Martin the funds to cover the costs right now (Venmo?), so he can hold both of our wagers and pay off the one who eventually wins.

Are you?

Sure.

37
$23.2m vs. $6.2m
Least pts scored in the NFL since the start of the 2017 season.
39% completion % in the red zone.

Your forgot his age. Cuz that is what you will say when I mention by this standard we would bench Barkley and Beckham.

Are you even reading?

What the hell do you think "37" means? :-)

Guess I have to answer this again. Coaching staff has done this and is doing that every practice. Think they know more than some armchair fan.

It is in fact armchair fans who don't understand playing in practice and playing on Sunday are two different things.


Is Eli the main reason for the Giants record? I said NO the offensive line has been for years.

And no one is arguing that point.

What you don't seem to understand is 37 year old Eli Manning is never going to see a good NFL offensive line again.

Should we bench Eli? I said No as he is not the main problem or performing at an alarmingly bad level.

Which remains not at all the point. He could play at a high level the next year and a half and that accomplishes nothing for the Giants. They're still not a postseason team.

The debate as to whether he is or could still perform at a high level is entirely irrelevant on what's now a full rebuild.

What is our main proplem on offense? I said the Offensive Line
What should be addressed in the offseason? Offensive line, secondary and pass rush.

And who the QB is in the 2020s.

You seem to believe there is a chance Eli Manning is someday the QB for a Giants team with a better offensive line, secondary and pass rush and can lead them to the postseason.

You seem to be alone on an island in this regard. He's not even contracted for that long. I doubt Eli Manning thinks he's ever going to play in a Giants postseason game again.

At the end of the day is this all about the fact you think the Giants can retool THIS offseason and be a playoff contender in 2019?

Really?

Do we have anyone worth benching Eli for? I said HELL NO but the coaches are best to make this decision.

They already did.

Again, you don't use one of the 53-man roster spots on an inactive 3rd QB when you started the year with postseason ambitions. They didn't draft him, decide he wasn't worthwhile during the preseason or anytime in the last 7 weeks and release him and/or try to sneak Lauletta onto the practice squad.

You don't seem to understand the roster implications of why he's hasn't been released, promoted to the back-up or snuck onto the practice squad.

Knickoftime
Posts: 23735
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/13/2011
Member: #3370

10/25/2018  10:37 AM
HofstraBBall wrote:
nykshaknbake wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:Do think it is getting close for Eli to move on but disagree that it is entirely his fault.

He's old for an NFL player, his production has been in decline, he plays a game increasingly out of style in the NFL and the worst possible style for his offensive line, he makes way too much for his production and will almost certainly never play in another postseason game as a Giant.

There is really NO reason to play him after Sunday. But you can't just move the scout team QB into the line-up in 4 days.

Give Eli a home game against a division rival for fans to say goodbye. Then going into the bye week promote Lauletta so he has a full 2 weeks (next game is a Mon night game) to prepare and see what's up over the last 7 games.

Not as bad as you make him to be. His completion percentage is currently higher than any of his previous years. So is his QBR. On pace to pass for more yards than every year except maybe 2011. Low Int count. Is he slowing dowm and an easier to expose with a bad O Line? yep. But no way the main cause and no way a coach is going to bench a 2 time SB champ when he is putting up respectable numbers. Would be narrow finger pointing. Btw, not really a good idea to stick a guy with no QB experience behind a struggling offensive line.


Is he the future of the franchise....think everyone knows he is not.

COmpletion percentage is purely a result of him throwing short checkdown passes, sometimes behind the line of scrimmage. He's still the best QB on the roster, but at this point finding out if Lauletta has a future has to be priority one.

Agree with analysis. Would add that most check downs are the result of limited time caused by a challenged offensive line.

Look, Knickoftime will use his impressive long line of questioning to change the subject matter of a discussion faster than a scorned jealous ex wife does after she finds out you moved on. But I agree that Manning is coming to the end of his time. Question for me is what do we do? What most short sighted fans usually do. Which is change the shinny object throwing the ball or do we focus on the real/major issues we have.

Been with my first and only wife 23 years. Made an awesome choice the first time. Have no experience with bumbling, fumbling relationship drama, sorry. Doesn't sound pleasant.

The point you're missing is no one here is booing at halftime, expecting the career back-up to come in and win the game in the second half, take over and lead the team on a winning streak to the playoffs. That's the football cliche you're incorrectly citing here.

What the Giants do is make finding the next franchise QB one of if not THE the top priorities. But the O-line, secondary, edge rushers, etc are all well up there too. You're making the mistake of inventing an argument no one is making to refute.

NOBODY is suggesting NOT tearing down the O-line, looking for corners and pass rushers. The Giants should be doing that too.

But IDing the next QB is very likely going to take the shape of using their #1 draft pick. But even if the Giants only used the 4th pick of the 2018 draft and the 53rd roster spot all season to groom Lauletta to be THAT QB's back-up, you still use the remainder of 2018 to see what he looks like in games, because there is no reason NOT to.

I'm a Manning fan, but there's nothing left for him to do. Lauletta could SUCK (which is totally possible) but it'd still be more interesting to see how he responded to starts #1 then #2 then #3 if for nothing else the novelty factor.

If there is some talent there, all the better.

But I completely fail to see the virtue of watching Manning QB the team to 13-20 points 9 more times.

SupremeCommander
Posts: 33382
Alba Posts: 35
Joined: 4/28/2006
Member: #1127

10/25/2018  11:02 AM
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
nykshaknbake wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:Do think it is getting close for Eli to move on but disagree that it is entirely his fault.

He's old for an NFL player, his production has been in decline, he plays a game increasingly out of style in the NFL and the worst possible style for his offensive line, he makes way too much for his production and will almost certainly never play in another postseason game as a Giant.

There is really NO reason to play him after Sunday. But you can't just move the scout team QB into the line-up in 4 days.

Give Eli a home game against a division rival for fans to say goodbye. Then going into the bye week promote Lauletta so he has a full 2 weeks (next game is a Mon night game) to prepare and see what's up over the last 7 games.

Not as bad as you make him to be. His completion percentage is currently higher than any of his previous years. So is his QBR. On pace to pass for more yards than every year except maybe 2011. Low Int count. Is he slowing dowm and an easier to expose with a bad O Line? yep. But no way the main cause and no way a coach is going to bench a 2 time SB champ when he is putting up respectable numbers. Would be narrow finger pointing. Btw, not really a good idea to stick a guy with no QB experience behind a struggling offensive line.


Is he the future of the franchise....think everyone knows he is not.

COmpletion percentage is purely a result of him throwing short checkdown passes, sometimes behind the line of scrimmage. He's still the best QB on the roster, but at this point finding out if Lauletta has a future has to be priority one.

Agree with analysis. Would add that most check downs are the result of limited time caused by a challenged offensive line.

Look, Knickoftime will use his impressive long line of questioning to change the subject matter of a discussion faster than a scorned jealous ex wife does after she finds out you moved on. But I agree that Manning is coming to the end of his time. Question for me is what do we do? What most short sighted fans usually do. Which is change the shinny object throwing the ball or do we focus on the real/major issues we have.

Been with my first and only wife 23 years. Made an awesome choice the first time. Have no experience with bumbling, fumbling relationship drama, sorry. Doesn't sound pleasant.

The point you're missing is no one here is booing at halftime, expecting the career back-up to come in and win the game in the second half, take over and lead the team on a winning streak to the playoffs. That's the football cliche you're incorrectly citing here.

What the Giants do is make finding the next franchise QB one of if not THE the top priorities. But the O-line, secondary, edge rushers, etc are all well up there too. You're making the mistake of inventing an argument no one is making to refute.

NOBODY is suggesting NOT tearing down the O-line, looking for corners and pass rushers. The Giants should be doing that too.

But IDing the next QB is very likely going to take the shape of using their #1 draft pick. But even if the Giants only used the 4th pick of the 2018 draft and the 53rd roster spot all season to groom Lauletta to be THAT QB's back-up, you still use the remainder of 2018 to see what he looks like in games, because there is no reason NOT to.

I'm a Manning fan, but there's nothing left for him to do. Lauletta could SUCK (which is totally possible) but it'd still be more interesting to see how he responded to starts #1 then #2 then #3 if for nothing else the novelty factor.

If there is some talent there, all the better.

But I completely fail to see the virtue of watching Manning QB the team to 13-20 points 9 more times.

Just to go to the bold, I think these are the short-term priorities:
1) offensive line
2) edge rushers
3) QB

Unfortunately, the draft isn't exceptional at QB. So, I would expect them to grab (hopefully) Nick Bosa. I think they probably go after someone like Teddy Bridgewater as a UFA bridge until they find a long term option. The team needs to rebuild the heart of its offense and defense... I don't think any rookie QB could come in and succeed with the crap in front him

Sambakick wrote: Gives a whole new meaning to "Jazz Hands"
Knickoftime
Posts: 23735
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/13/2011
Member: #3370

10/25/2018  11:13 AM
SupremeCommander wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
nykshaknbake wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:Do think it is getting close for Eli to move on but disagree that it is entirely his fault.

He's old for an NFL player, his production has been in decline, he plays a game increasingly out of style in the NFL and the worst possible style for his offensive line, he makes way too much for his production and will almost certainly never play in another postseason game as a Giant.

There is really NO reason to play him after Sunday. But you can't just move the scout team QB into the line-up in 4 days.

Give Eli a home game against a division rival for fans to say goodbye. Then going into the bye week promote Lauletta so he has a full 2 weeks (next game is a Mon night game) to prepare and see what's up over the last 7 games.

Not as bad as you make him to be. His completion percentage is currently higher than any of his previous years. So is his QBR. On pace to pass for more yards than every year except maybe 2011. Low Int count. Is he slowing dowm and an easier to expose with a bad O Line? yep. But no way the main cause and no way a coach is going to bench a 2 time SB champ when he is putting up respectable numbers. Would be narrow finger pointing. Btw, not really a good idea to stick a guy with no QB experience behind a struggling offensive line.


Is he the future of the franchise....think everyone knows he is not.

COmpletion percentage is purely a result of him throwing short checkdown passes, sometimes behind the line of scrimmage. He's still the best QB on the roster, but at this point finding out if Lauletta has a future has to be priority one.

Agree with analysis. Would add that most check downs are the result of limited time caused by a challenged offensive line.

Look, Knickoftime will use his impressive long line of questioning to change the subject matter of a discussion faster than a scorned jealous ex wife does after she finds out you moved on. But I agree that Manning is coming to the end of his time. Question for me is what do we do? What most short sighted fans usually do. Which is change the shinny object throwing the ball or do we focus on the real/major issues we have.

Been with my first and only wife 23 years. Made an awesome choice the first time. Have no experience with bumbling, fumbling relationship drama, sorry. Doesn't sound pleasant.

The point you're missing is no one here is booing at halftime, expecting the career back-up to come in and win the game in the second half, take over and lead the team on a winning streak to the playoffs. That's the football cliche you're incorrectly citing here.

What the Giants do is make finding the next franchise QB one of if not THE the top priorities. But the O-line, secondary, edge rushers, etc are all well up there too. You're making the mistake of inventing an argument no one is making to refute.

NOBODY is suggesting NOT tearing down the O-line, looking for corners and pass rushers. The Giants should be doing that too.

But IDing the next QB is very likely going to take the shape of using their #1 draft pick. But even if the Giants only used the 4th pick of the 2018 draft and the 53rd roster spot all season to groom Lauletta to be THAT QB's back-up, you still use the remainder of 2018 to see what he looks like in games, because there is no reason NOT to.

I'm a Manning fan, but there's nothing left for him to do. Lauletta could SUCK (which is totally possible) but it'd still be more interesting to see how he responded to starts #1 then #2 then #3 if for nothing else the novelty factor.

If there is some talent there, all the better.

But I completely fail to see the virtue of watching Manning QB the team to 13-20 points 9 more times.

Just to go to the bold, I think these are the short-term priorities:
1) offensive line
2) edge rushers
3) QB

Unfortunately, the draft isn't exceptional at QB. So, I would expect them to grab (hopefully) Nick Bosa. I think they probably go after someone like Teddy Bridgewater as a UFA bridge until they find a long term option. The team needs to rebuild the heart of its offense and defense... I don't think any rookie QB could come in and succeed with the crap in front him

Hell no.

Backing up, if Hebert isn't lured out by the prospect of being the #1 or #2 pick and the Giants QB, then you also might have to explore moving back some, trying to get a another #2 or #3 or something, and taking the best tackle.

But more relevant to this thread this is why you play Lauletta. They clearly drafted him with the plan to red shirt him this year, promote him to back-up behind Manning in 2019 (on what they imagined was a better team) and maybe he'd turn into something in year 3.

That plan is now blown-up. Now you give him games to see what basic tools are there. You design plays to move him out of the pocket. Design a lot of short throws and checkdowns. Rely on Barkley and Gallman a lot.

He'll take a lot of lumps either way and it won't be pretty, but you see what raw tools exist.

Team would be negligent if they didn't.

HofstraBBall
Posts: 24631
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/21/2015
Member: #6192

10/25/2018  12:10 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/25/2018  12:14 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
nykshaknbake wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:Do think it is getting close for Eli to move on but disagree that it is entirely his fault.

He's old for an NFL player, his production has been in decline, he plays a game increasingly out of style in the NFL and the worst possible style for his offensive line, he makes way too much for his production and will almost certainly never play in another postseason game as a Giant.

There is really NO reason to play him after Sunday. But you can't just move the scout team QB into the line-up in 4 days.

Give Eli a home game against a division rival for fans to say goodbye. Then going into the bye week promote Lauletta so he has a full 2 weeks (next game is a Mon night game) to prepare and see what's up over the last 7 games.

Not as bad as you make him to be. His completion percentage is currently higher than any of his previous years. So is his QBR. On pace to pass for more yards than every year except maybe 2011. Low Int count. Is he slowing dowm and an easier to expose with a bad O Line? yep. But no way the main cause and no way a coach is going to bench a 2 time SB champ when he is putting up respectable numbers. Would be narrow finger pointing. Btw, not really a good idea to stick a guy with no QB experience behind a struggling offensive line.


Is he the future of the franchise....think everyone knows he is not.

COmpletion percentage is purely a result of him throwing short checkdown passes, sometimes behind the line of scrimmage. He's still the best QB on the roster, but at this point finding out if Lauletta has a future has to be priority one.

Agree with analysis. Would add that most check downs are the result of limited time caused by a challenged offensive line.

Look, Knickoftime will use his impressive long line of questioning to change the subject matter of a discussion faster than a scorned jealous ex wife does after she finds out you moved on. But I agree that Manning is coming to the end of his time. Question for me is what do we do? What most short sighted fans usually do. Which is change the shinny object throwing the ball or do we focus on the real/major issues we have.

Been with my first and only wife 23 years. Made an awesome choice the first time. Have no experience with bumbling, fumbling relationship drama, sorry. Doesn't sound pleasant.

The point you're missing is no one here is booing at halftime, expecting the career back-up to come in and win the game in the second half, take over and lead the team on a winning streak to the playoffs. That's the football cliche you're incorrectly citing here. Never said that you did. Said that it will be because the coaches think the backup deserves a shot and the QB starter is main issue

What the Giants do is make finding the next franchise QB one of if not THE the top priorities. But the O-line, secondary, edge rushers, etc are all well up there too. You're making the mistake of inventing an argument no one is making to refute. Never disagreed with the idea that the Giants need a Franchise QB. Tell me something everybody does not already know. Let me guess, no other team needs a franchise QB? Your saying Lauletta is? Im saying he is not.

NOBODY is suggesting NOT tearing down the O-line, looking for corners and pass rushers. The Giants should be doing that too.

But IDing the next QB is very likely going to take the shape of using their #1 draft pick. But even if the Giants only used the 4th pick of the 2018 draft and the 53rd roster spot all season to groom Lauletta to be THAT QB's back-up, you still use the remainder of 2018 to see what he looks like in games, because there is no reason NOT to. Agree it will take a 1st rounder or a trade. Think if he is as good as you claim and he deserves a shot the staff will give him that chance later in the season.

I'm a Manning fan, but there's nothing left for him to do. Lauletta could SUCK (which is totally possible) but it'd still be more interesting to see how he responded to starts #1 then #2 then #3 if for nothing else the novelty factor. Glad to see you think coaching an NFL team should be based on novelty.

If there is some talent there, all the better.

But I completely fail to see the virtue of watching Manning QB the team to 13-20 points 9 more times.

So there is virtue in putting in a 4th round QB behind a bad Oline?

Congrats on the 23 years. Almost at the 10 year mark myself. Glad you saw the humor in my remark.
Again, think its easy for you to miss someone's point due to your focus on changing the subject and asking so many arbitrary questions. Legally sneaky Pete like. Guess you did not read my summary? Do you remember what we originally disagreed on? Before you went off on so many different tangents? I said that Eli was not the main cause of our issues. Said his numbers are actually not as bad as you make them to be. Said that there is no way we bench him for a fans 4th round "dream" of a back up. Ok fine, stuck in the dream part .


So again. Yes we need a franchise QB. Tom Brady like if possible. Yes a QB on the roster, who has a chance at being a long term solution and the staff vote is ready, should get a shot to run the team during the regular season. Offensive lines are very important to ALL offensive position players. Specially the QB. The Giants only have to improve a few things to get back to a higher lever. Offensive Line, Defensive Line, Secondary, draft a "Franchise QB", mascot, hire cheerleaders, play in domed stadium, offer free vodka to fans that freeze their asses off in the winter. OR just bench Eli.

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
Knickoftime
Posts: 23735
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/13/2011
Member: #3370

10/25/2018  12:50 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/25/2018  2:25 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:Let me guess, no other team needs a franchise QB? Your saying Lauletta is? Im saying he is not.

I'm not saying he is or he is not. He probably is not.

Read that again, take a deep breath, and then read that again.

The point of course is the nine remaining Giants games are essentially scrimmages. They're preseason games in the regular season.

They're about seeing what players can do. Find out what he can do. There ARE 3rd, 4th and even 6th round quality QBs playing on quality teams right now. Is it likely Lauletta is a franchise QB?

Hell no.

Read that again, take a deep breath, and then read that again.

Is there any reason NOT to play him, and any reason to play Manning all 9.

Hell no.

I saw on SNY last night give Manning the season finale at home against Dallas. At least the start. That's totally cool.

Think if he is as good as you claim and he deserves a shot the staff will give him that chance later in the season.

And here's your problem in a nutshell. I have never once said claimed he is anything, much less "good." But I write 'use the remaining meaningless games to see what he can do on a Sunday' and you read that to mean I think Lauletta is the next franchise QB.

Let me dumb it down for you.

He likely isn't. But there is NO reason not to take a look at whatever he might be.

Worse case scenario, he makes the Giants even worse the remaining games, they lose more games they would have with Manning, improves their draft capital, and informs the team that drafted Lauletta they no longer need to carry him on their 53 man roster next season.

That's a pretty okay worse case scenario. Actually accomplishes a few positive things.

So there is virtue in putting in a 4th round QB behind a bad Oline?

Yes, the above.

I assume you understand what draft capital is and how significant it is at the top of the draft.

I'm not sure what your argument is for the team to win more of their remaining 9 games as opposed to less.

Care you explain?

I said that Eli was not the main cause of our issues.

And I've agreed with you. But instead of using that to try to find common ground, you used me agreeing with you to post useless snarky responses.

Said his numbers are actually not as bad as you make them to be.

I never once criticized his overall completion %. The fact is they have a hard time scoring touchdowns. That is largely the 0-lines fault, AND Mannings, and that's in large part due to the fact he's been negatively impacted by his O-line.

You seem still convinced for god knows what reason I'm 'hating' on Manning without acknowledging the O-Line is mostly to blame.

The 0-Line IS mostly to blame. Are we clear on that?

The problem is, that's NOT a reason to stick with 37 year old, $24m against the cap, COMPLETELY immobile Eli Manning.

Would Manning be better than Lauletta the remainder of this season? Almost certainly. Probably significantly so. But that isn't a reason to play him during a rebuild.

Platitudes about the best player don't apply during the exhibition season, which the remainder of the schedule essentially is.

For this same reason I also wouldn't let Beckham field another punt or kick return in 2018 or 2019. If any of the younger, skill players bang a knee, don't put them back in. Pull them all in the second half when game is out of reach either way.

The rules of who you play, how you play them, where and for how long are officially different now that the Giants season and 2019 season are effectively over from a competitive standpoint.

So again. Yes we need a franchise QB. Tom Brady like if possible.

Who was the 199th pick.

Yes a QB on the roster, who has a chance at being a long term solution and the staff vote is ready, should get a shot to run the team during the regular season.

Manning doesn't qualify.

Offensive lines are very important to ALL offensive position players. Specially the QB. The Giants only have to improve a few things to get back to a higher lever. Offensive Line, Defensive Line, Secondary, draft a "Franchise QB", mascot, hire cheerleaders, play in domed stadium, offer free vodka to fans that freeze their asses off in the winter. OR just bench Eli.

Once again, you're inventing arguments.

NO QB is stepping into this team and going to the postseason the next 2 years. Not Mahomes, not Goff, not Brady, not Rodgers.

This is NOT a 'bench Eli and don't do anything else' thing. This is a 'bench Eli AND also do EVERYTHING else' thing.

Understand?

Knickoftime
Posts: 23735
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/13/2011
Member: #3370

10/25/2018  12:52 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
nykshaknbake wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:Do think it is getting close for Eli to move on but disagree that it is entirely his fault.

He's old for an NFL player, his production has been in decline, he plays a game increasingly out of style in the NFL and the worst possible style for his offensive line, he makes way too much for his production and will almost certainly never play in another postseason game as a Giant.

There is really NO reason to play him after Sunday. But you can't just move the scout team QB into the line-up in 4 days.

Give Eli a home game against a division rival for fans to say goodbye. Then going into the bye week promote Lauletta so he has a full 2 weeks (next game is a Mon night game) to prepare and see what's up over the last 7 games.

Not as bad as you make him to be. His completion percentage is currently higher than any of his previous years. So is his QBR. On pace to pass for more yards than every year except maybe 2011. Low Int count. Is he slowing dowm and an easier to expose with a bad O Line? yep. But no way the main cause and no way a coach is going to bench a 2 time SB champ when he is putting up respectable numbers. Would be narrow finger pointing. Btw, not really a good idea to stick a guy with no QB experience behind a struggling offensive line.


Is he the future of the franchise....think everyone knows he is not.

COmpletion percentage is purely a result of him throwing short checkdown passes, sometimes behind the line of scrimmage. He's still the best QB on the roster, but at this point finding out if Lauletta has a future has to be priority one.

Agree with analysis. Would add that most check downs are the result of limited time caused by a challenged offensive line.

Look, Knickoftime will use his impressive long line of questioning to change the subject matter of a discussion faster than a scorned jealous ex wife does after she finds out you moved on. But I agree that Manning is coming to the end of his time. Question for me is what do we do? What most short sighted fans usually do. Which is change the shinny object throwing the ball or do we focus on the real/major issues we have.

Been with my first and only wife 23 years. Made an awesome choice the first time. Have no experience with bumbling, fumbling relationship drama, sorry. Doesn't sound pleasant.

The point you're missing is no one here is booing at halftime, expecting the career back-up to come in and win the game in the second half, take over and lead the team on a winning streak to the playoffs. That's the football cliche you're incorrectly citing here. Never said that you did. Said that it will be because the coaches think the backup deserves a shot and the QB starter is main issue

What the Giants do is make finding the next franchise QB one of if not THE the top priorities. But the O-line, secondary, edge rushers, etc are all well up there too. You're making the mistake of inventing an argument no one is making to refute. Never disagreed with the idea that the Giants need a Franchise QB. Tell me something everybody does not already know. Let me guess, no other team needs a franchise QB? Your saying Lauletta is? Im saying he is not.

NOBODY is suggesting NOT tearing down the O-line, looking for corners and pass rushers. The Giants should be doing that too.

But IDing the next QB is very likely going to take the shape of using their #1 draft pick. But even if the Giants only used the 4th pick of the 2018 draft and the 53rd roster spot all season to groom Lauletta to be THAT QB's back-up, you still use the remainder of 2018 to see what he looks like in games, because there is no reason NOT to. Agree it will take a 1st rounder or a trade. Think if he is as good as you claim and he deserves a shot the staff will give him that chance later in the season.

I'm a Manning fan, but there's nothing left for him to do. Lauletta could SUCK (which is totally possible) but it'd still be more interesting to see how he responded to starts #1 then #2 then #3 if for nothing else the novelty factor. Glad to see you think coaching an NFL team should be based on novelty.

If there is some talent there, all the better.

But I completely fail to see the virtue of watching Manning QB the team to 13-20 points 9 more times.

So there is virtue in putting in a 4th round QB behind a bad Oline?

Congrats on the 23 years. Almost at the 10 year mark myself. Glad you saw the humor in my remark.
Again, think its easy for you to miss someone's point due to your focus on changing the subject and asking so many arbitrary questions. Legally sneaky Pete like. Guess you did not read my summary? Do you remember what we originally disagreed on? Before you went off on so many different tangents? I said that Eli was not the main cause of our issues. Said his numbers are actually not as bad as you make them to be. Said that there is no way we bench him for a fans 4th round "dream" of a back up. Ok fine, stuck in the dream part .


So again. Yes we need a franchise QB. Tom Brady like if possible. Yes a QB on the roster, who has a chance at being a long term solution and the staff vote is ready, should get a shot to run the team during the regular season. Offensive lines are very important to ALL offensive position players. Specially the QB. The Giants only have to improve a few things to get back to a higher lever. Offensive Line, Defensive Line, Secondary, draft a "Franchise QB", mascot, hire cheerleaders, play in domed stadium, offer free vodka to fans that freeze their asses off in the winter. OR just bench Eli.

We skipped the bet part, huh? :-)

Still willing. Name your MSG section. The expensive seats of you like. I'm in. We'll agree on the cost of 2 tickets, we'll both Venmo Martin the funds to cover the cost. He'll Venmo the total to one of us when the bet terms are settled.

Cool?

meloshouldgo
Posts: 26565
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/3/2014
Member: #5801

10/25/2018  3:04 PM
Moonangie wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:Eli's gotta go. We need a new stud there.

not a Giants fan at all, but both of My best friends are, and I have been telling them that for the last 4 yrs. Flacco and ELI are the most overrated QB's in the NFL.

Both got big contract base on a couple of good Playoff games that led to a super bowl title, but in all reality it was their defense that really propelled them

No doubt, defense is always the key to winning a Superbowl. But Eli was an excellent game manager, despite his obvious limitations in the QB1 role (i.e., lack of mobility, need for a stout O-line).

It's obvious last year and this year that Eli has lost faith in his protection, which has resulted in a serious diminishment in his accuracy and decision-making.

Makes sense to rebuild, although I doubt OBJ will be happy about wasting his prime years. He'll demand a trade next season.

He can leave as well. Too full of himself. He is a great player so I would regret seeing him go, but I am not a fan of me first pro players

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
Knickoftime
Posts: 23735
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/13/2011
Member: #3370

10/25/2018  3:09 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:
Moonangie wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:Eli's gotta go. We need a new stud there.

not a Giants fan at all, but both of My best friends are, and I have been telling them that for the last 4 yrs. Flacco and ELI are the most overrated QB's in the NFL.

Both got big contract base on a couple of good Playoff games that led to a super bowl title, but in all reality it was their defense that really propelled them

No doubt, defense is always the key to winning a Superbowl. But Eli was an excellent game manager, despite his obvious limitations in the QB1 role (i.e., lack of mobility, need for a stout O-line).

It's obvious last year and this year that Eli has lost faith in his protection, which has resulted in a serious diminishment in his accuracy and decision-making.

Makes sense to rebuild, although I doubt OBJ will be happy about wasting his prime years. He'll demand a trade next season.

He can leave as well. Too full of himself. He is a great player so I would regret seeing him go, but I am not a fan of me first pro players

He's impossible to trade for a couple of years.

And I don't think he's a me-first player. I think he's a whole other animal. A guy who doesn't know how to not always think he's in a selfie. That's a different pathology.

I think he's a perfectly fine teammate that doesn't know how not to draw attention to himself.

His comments were stupid, but I don't think malicious. Just ill-thought out.

SupremeCommander
Posts: 33382
Alba Posts: 35
Joined: 4/28/2006
Member: #1127

10/25/2018  3:37 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
nykshaknbake wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:Do think it is getting close for Eli to move on but disagree that it is entirely his fault.

He's old for an NFL player, his production has been in decline, he plays a game increasingly out of style in the NFL and the worst possible style for his offensive line, he makes way too much for his production and will almost certainly never play in another postseason game as a Giant.

There is really NO reason to play him after Sunday. But you can't just move the scout team QB into the line-up in 4 days.

Give Eli a home game against a division rival for fans to say goodbye. Then going into the bye week promote Lauletta so he has a full 2 weeks (next game is a Mon night game) to prepare and see what's up over the last 7 games.

Not as bad as you make him to be. His completion percentage is currently higher than any of his previous years. So is his QBR. On pace to pass for more yards than every year except maybe 2011. Low Int count. Is he slowing dowm and an easier to expose with a bad O Line? yep. But no way the main cause and no way a coach is going to bench a 2 time SB champ when he is putting up respectable numbers. Would be narrow finger pointing. Btw, not really a good idea to stick a guy with no QB experience behind a struggling offensive line.


Is he the future of the franchise....think everyone knows he is not.

COmpletion percentage is purely a result of him throwing short checkdown passes, sometimes behind the line of scrimmage. He's still the best QB on the roster, but at this point finding out if Lauletta has a future has to be priority one.

Agree with analysis. Would add that most check downs are the result of limited time caused by a challenged offensive line.

Look, Knickoftime will use his impressive long line of questioning to change the subject matter of a discussion faster than a scorned jealous ex wife does after she finds out you moved on. But I agree that Manning is coming to the end of his time. Question for me is what do we do? What most short sighted fans usually do. Which is change the shinny object throwing the ball or do we focus on the real/major issues we have.

Been with my first and only wife 23 years. Made an awesome choice the first time. Have no experience with bumbling, fumbling relationship drama, sorry. Doesn't sound pleasant.

The point you're missing is no one here is booing at halftime, expecting the career back-up to come in and win the game in the second half, take over and lead the team on a winning streak to the playoffs. That's the football cliche you're incorrectly citing here.

What the Giants do is make finding the next franchise QB one of if not THE the top priorities. But the O-line, secondary, edge rushers, etc are all well up there too. You're making the mistake of inventing an argument no one is making to refute.

NOBODY is suggesting NOT tearing down the O-line, looking for corners and pass rushers. The Giants should be doing that too.

But IDing the next QB is very likely going to take the shape of using their #1 draft pick. But even if the Giants only used the 4th pick of the 2018 draft and the 53rd roster spot all season to groom Lauletta to be THAT QB's back-up, you still use the remainder of 2018 to see what he looks like in games, because there is no reason NOT to.

I'm a Manning fan, but there's nothing left for him to do. Lauletta could SUCK (which is totally possible) but it'd still be more interesting to see how he responded to starts #1 then #2 then #3 if for nothing else the novelty factor.

If there is some talent there, all the better.

But I completely fail to see the virtue of watching Manning QB the team to 13-20 points 9 more times.

Just to go to the bold, I think these are the short-term priorities:
1) offensive line
2) edge rushers
3) QB

Unfortunately, the draft isn't exceptional at QB. So, I would expect them to grab (hopefully) Nick Bosa. I think they probably go after someone like Teddy Bridgewater as a UFA bridge until they find a long term option. The team needs to rebuild the heart of its offense and defense... I don't think any rookie QB could come in and succeed with the crap in front him

Hell no.

Backing up, if Hebert isn't lured out by the prospect of being the #1 or #2 pick and the Giants QB, then you also might have to explore moving back some, trying to get a another #2 or #3 or something, and taking the best tackle.

But more relevant to this thread this is why you play Lauletta. They clearly drafted him with the plan to red shirt him this year, promote him to back-up behind Manning in 2019 (on what they imagined was a better team) and maybe he'd turn into something in year 3.

That plan is now blown-up. Now you give him games to see what basic tools are there. You design plays to move him out of the pocket. Design a lot of short throws and checkdowns. Rely on Barkley and Gallman a lot.

He'll take a lot of lumps either way and it won't be pretty, but you see what raw tools exist.

Team would be negligent if they didn't.

I would try out Lauletta for sure. i'm not sold on Herbert or Lock, and that's it as far as choices go

Sambakick wrote: Gives a whole new meaning to "Jazz Hands"
HofstraBBall
Posts: 24631
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/21/2015
Member: #6192

10/25/2018  4:27 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/25/2018  4:31 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:Let me guess, no other team needs a franchise QB? Your saying Lauletta is? Im saying he is not.

I'm not saying he is or he is not. He probably is not. KNICKOFTIME PLEASE take a deep breath and READ

Read that again, take a deep breath, and then read that again.

The point of course is the nine remaining Giants games are essentially scrimmages. They're preseason games in the regular season.

They're about seeing what players can do. Find out what he can do. There ARE 3rd, 4th and even 6th round quality QBs playing on quality teams right now. Is it likely Lauletta is a franchise QB?

Hell no. KNICKOFTIME PLEASE take a deep breath and READ

Read that again, take a deep breath, and then read that again.

Is there any reason NOT to play him, and any reason to play Manning all 9. KNICKOFTIME PLEASE take a deep breath and READ what I keep writing. Because ELI is THE BEST QB on the team and there is no back up worth playing.

Hell no.

I saw on SNY last night give Manning the season finale at home against Dallas. At least the start. That's totally cool.

Think if he is as good as you claim and he deserves a shot the staff will give him that chance later in the season.

And here's your problem in a nutshell. I have never once said claimed he is anything, much less "good." But I write 'use the remaining meaningless games to see what he can do on a Sunday' and you read that to mean I think Lauletta is the next franchise QB. You have insinuated that he is the next Tom Brady

Let me dumb it down for you. Have you read your posts? You already did that.

He likely isn't. But there is NO reason not to take a look at whatever he might be.

Worse case scenario, he makes the Giants even worse the remaining games, they lose more games they would have with Manning, improves their draft capital, and informs the team that drafted Lauletta they no longer need to carry him on their 53 man roster next season. So now you are claiming your point all along was to improve our draft position? Okay, sounds good.

That's a pretty okay worse case scenario. Actually accomplishes a few positive things.

So there is virtue in putting in a 4th round QB behind a bad Oline?

Yes, the above.

I assume you understand what draft capital is and how significant it is at the top of the draft.

I'm not sure what your argument is for the team to win more of their remaining 9 games as opposed to less.

Care you explain?

I said that Eli was not the main cause of our issues.

And I've agreed with you. But instead of using that to try to find common ground, you used me agreeing with you to post useless snarky responses. KNCKOFTIME PLEASE take a deep breath and READ. Great, I count 4 times you now agree with me.

Said his numbers are actually not as bad as you make them to be.

I never once criticized his overall completion %. The fact is they have a hard time scoring touchdowns. That is largely the 0-lines fault, AND Mannings, and that's in large part due to the fact he's been negatively impacted by his O-line. Make that Five times

You seem still convinced for god knows what reason I'm 'hating' on Manning without acknowledging the O-Line is mostly to blame.

The 0-Line IS mostly to blame. Are we clear on that? Make that Six, I think

The problem is, that's NOT a reason to stick with 37 year old, $24m against the cap, COMPLETELY immobile Eli Manning.

Would Manning be better than Lauletta the remainder of this season? Almost certainly. Probably significantly so. But that isn't a reason to play him during a rebuild. And your not hating on Manning? Have not seen any bench the O line, Defensive line, Secondary, Kicking team rants. Don't think they are part of the future as well? And is Beckam earning his contract?

Platitudes about the best player don't apply during the exhibition season, which the remainder of the schedule essentially is.

For this same reason I also wouldn't let Beckham field another punt or kick return in 2018 or 2019. If any of the younger, skill players bang a knee, don't put them back in. Pull them all in the second half when game is out of reach either way. Sound plan. 8th game of the year and lets pull the plug.

The rules of who you play, how you play them, where and for how long are officially different now that the Giants season and 2019 season are effectively over from a competitive standpoint.

So again. Yes we need a franchise QB. Tom Brady like if possible.

Who was the 199th pick. You missed my point. Explanation. Lets draft only 199ish picks. Seems to be good odds of success.

Yes a QB on the roster, who has a chance at being a long term solution and the staff vote is ready, should get a shot to run the team during the regular season.

Manning doesn't qualify. So your point is...…. give the job to the guy not in the future plans but that was a 4th rounder and has no experience just for ****s and giggles.

Offensive lines are very important to ALL offensive position players. Specially the QB. The Giants only have to improve a few things to get back to a higher lever. Offensive Line, Defensive Line, Secondary, draft a "Franchise QB", mascot, hire cheerleaders, play in domed stadium, offer free vodka to fans that freeze their asses off in the winter. OR just bench Eli.

Once again, you're inventing arguments.

NO QB is stepping into this team and going to the postseason the next 2 years. Not Mahomes, not Goff, not Brady, not Rodgers. Crystal ball? Think we can get a draft pick or one via trade

This is NOT a 'bench Eli and don't do anything else' thing. This is a 'bench Eli AND also do EVERYTHING else' thing.

Understand?

Sorry if I am getting to you. Think you just cant understand/cope that not everyone agrees with you. You were married for how many years? Wont help if you continue to bring up even more new explanations/premises. Guess your hoping one will stick. Hey but by reading the above it seems you are finally agreeing with most of what I said. Cool.


Don't agree with you on the following. ONLY. (KNICKOFTIME PLEASE take a deep breath and READ)

Ok, so you think Lauleta is the next Tom Brady. Will call Vegas in the am..
You think most NFL teams should start their 4th round QB after the 7th game of the year.
Think benching Eli will create something positive (See last year)
We should bench Eli. Don.t see a point. (Please stop saying the same thing as why you think he should. Specially the rock solid "we have a 4th rounder in the wings" argument)

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
Knickoftime
Posts: 23735
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/13/2011
Member: #3370

10/25/2018  5:05 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:KNICKOFTIME PLEASE take a deep breath and READ

Lauletta probably isn't the Giants QB in 2019 and beyond.

Manning definitely isn't.

Probably isn't > definitely isn't...

Because ELI is THE BEST QB on the team...

And why does that matter when they have no shot at the postseason for NO LESS THAN (and maybe more) this year and next?

What do you think you're trying to win? You ACTUALLY want 4 wins this season instead of 2?

You have insinuated that he is the next Tom Brady

This just deserves to stand here on its own.

So now you are claiming your point all along was to improve our draft position? Okay, sounds good.

This too.

And your not hating on Manning? Have not seen any bench the O line, Defensive line, Secondary, Kicking team rants.

Yes, that's why I endorse a full rebuild. Why I'm fine with the trades so far and would like to see jenkins before the deadline.

a 37 year told QB has no place on a team 3-4 years away.

And is Beckam earning his contract?

I don't know about Beckam but Beckham is neither tradeable or releasable.

Remember ALL of those many, many needs all around the roster the Giants have? You know how they can free up the most cap room on the roster?

By releasing Manning.

You want new offensive and defensive lineman and defensive backs? Giants only have 2 picks in the first 3 rounds and one of those picks might be on a QB?

Where do you think all these new players are coming from?

Sound plan. 8th game of the year and lets pull the plug.

What is it you think they're plugged into? The postseason? You think this team has 9-0 in them???

Remember how crappy their O-line, secondary and pass rush is?

So your point is...…. give the job to the guy not in the future plans but that was a 4th rounder and has no experience just for ****s and giggles.

No, play him for the reason he was drafted and carried inactive on the 53 man roster for 7 weeks, none of which was ****s and giggles. Play him to see if he's a football player.

Think we can get a draft pick or one via trade

Wow, you missed the point, which is odd considering it's YOUR point.

The rest of the team is too bad for a good quarterback to make enough of a difference in the next 2 seasons.

The point was if you swap out Manning for Mahomes or Brady or Rodgers on THIS Giants team this year or next, they still aren't a postseason team.

Their O-line, secondary and pass rush need major overhauls, remember?

Think you just cant understand/cope that not everyone agrees with you.

Interesting given you may be the only person alive who thinks Eli Manning is on the Giants next season.

You think most NFL teams should start their 4th round QB after the 7th game of the year.

A LOT of NFL teams have some hope for the postseason. Only a few already know they don't. The Giants being one of them. That's why most NFL teams aren't trading their starting defensive tackles and corners but the Giants are.

Because of this moment, they no longer qualify as most NFL teams.

You really don't understand the difference between 1-6 and 4-3 in the NFL, do you?

Now about that bet...

meloshouldgo
Posts: 26565
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/3/2014
Member: #5801

10/25/2018  5:49 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Moonangie wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:Eli's gotta go. We need a new stud there.

not a Giants fan at all, but both of My best friends are, and I have been telling them that for the last 4 yrs. Flacco and ELI are the most overrated QB's in the NFL.

Both got big contract base on a couple of good Playoff games that led to a super bowl title, but in all reality it was their defense that really propelled them

No doubt, defense is always the key to winning a Superbowl. But Eli was an excellent game manager, despite his obvious limitations in the QB1 role (i.e., lack of mobility, need for a stout O-line).

It's obvious last year and this year that Eli has lost faith in his protection, which has resulted in a serious diminishment in his accuracy and decision-making.

Makes sense to rebuild, although I doubt OBJ will be happy about wasting his prime years. He'll demand a trade next season.

He can leave as well. Too full of himself. He is a great player so I would regret seeing him go, but I am not a fan of me first pro players

He's impossible to trade for a couple of years.

And I don't think he's a me-first player. I think he's a whole other animal. A guy who doesn't know how to not always think he's in a selfie. That's a different pathology.

I think he's a perfectly fine teammate that doesn't know how not to draw attention to himself.

His comments were stupid, but I don't think malicious. Just ill-thought out.

Possible, but same difference. He is immature and will be a distraction on a team where he will be the most visible and longest tenured veteran.i di hope he can figure out his human highlight reel issues

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
OT - NY Giants Teardown Underway

©2001-2012 ultimateknicks.comm All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.

Terms of Use and Privacy Policy