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OT - NY Giants Teardown Underway
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Knickoftime
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10/24/2018  2:35 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/24/2018  2:37 PM
jrodmc wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:While Eli is not what he once was, he is not the problem. That OLine is horrible. I doubt any QB would be successful behind that **** show. BUT...It's to move on. I would like to see Lauleta get a chance now to see what he has.

Right now we have the following draft picks.
1st Round
2nd Round
4th Round (3 picks)
5th Round (2 Picks)
6th Round
7th Round

We have 9 picks and counting.

With this fire sale, I believe these are the players that are available

Landon Collins - Possible 2nd or 3rd rounder
Jack Rabbit - 4th or 5th
Sterling Shepherd - Possible 2nd or 3rd
Engram - 2nd or 3rd

OBJ can't be traded due to the massive contract and cap hit.
Barkley is untouchable
Hernandez is untouchable

Then on the draft. Draft the top OT in the 1st round. Get your QB in the 2nd. Get a Guard, Center and DE in the next 3 picks. Then draft BAP.

I don't want Carr since he would cost a lot. We need to build the line to open holes for Barkley.

I love Eli.

But he is a big part of the problem along with the line. They are two parts of a larger whole.

He is a totally stationary pocket passer in a era where extending plays is increasingly necessary. And BECAUSE he is so gun shy BECAUSE of the line he's just not the same player anymore. At this stage you can't say he'd go back to staying straight up and moving up in the pocket if he had more time.

He threw off his back foot on the play to the right corner of the endzone to Beckham missing badly despite little pressure on that play.

The rollout to the right was also a bad read. He held the ball too long to Beckham and panicked on the throw to Simonson.

You can lay the blame for that on the bad line the last 3 seasons, but the fact is Eli is now permanently altered because of it.

There's no third act here. He's done, and has nothing to be ashamed of for it.

Eli got sacked 4 times by the worst defensive team in the league. Several times during the game, Carl Banks was going positively brickbats because there were O lineman standing around NOT BLOCKING ANYONE.

On the goal line play, we had an O lineman STANDING IN THE FUCKING END ZONE ALL BY HIMSELF, after TOUCHING NOBODY. How the fuhuck do you manage to do that in the NFL?

Eli's time is definitely past, but if we don't get the OL fixed, Barkely's going to continue getting the living **** beat out of him every game, and it won't matter who the hell we have at QB.

That last thing is a little overated. Almost EVERY play a running back is involved in ends in hard contact (a tackle). Tackles aren't much more punishing 3 years behind the line than they are 5 yards in front of it.

Sucks that he keeps being met in the backfield, and sure, defensive linemen are bigger, but they're also not getting free running shots at him and he hasn't gathered a full head of steam yet. He more just keeps running into a wall with no holes. It's really not that much more punishing on him than being tackled upfield.

AUTOADVERT
HofstraBBall
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10/24/2018  2:58 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/24/2018  3:06 PM
Moonangie wrote:At 1-6 for the second year in a row, this was inevitable. IMO, it's a smart move as there is clearly not a team in place to call "win now".

Eli Apple traded to Saints for a 2019 fourth rounder and 2020 seventh rounder
Snacks Harrison traded to Lions for a 2019 fifth rounder

Substantial salary cap savings in 2019 on these moves, with some dead money, too.

Thoughts on the next moves and/or advisability of this rebuild?

Think the plan is clear. OFFENSIVE LINE help and fast. Be nice if they turn those draft picks and anything they garnish in the near future off trades into good offensive linemen. It has been our problem for many years. Eli Apple was almost gone last year so no surprise there. Our secondary has been an issue for some time as well. Has not helped that Oliver Vernon (Who may also be dealt) has been out but the defense has not looked good. May admit it is getting close for Eli to move on but only when it is clear he can no longer do the job. He has looks fine when he gets basic protection. These last two years have not been entirely his fault.

Btw. Hard complaining about my Gmen. They have given me 4 Chips in my lifetime. Kinda greedy to want more.

Cant say the same for my lonely Knicks.

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
Knickoftime
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10/24/2018  3:08 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:Do think it is getting close for Eli to move on but disagree that it is entirely his fault.

He's old for an NFL player, his production has been in decline, he plays a game increasingly out of style in the NFL and the worst possible style for his offensive line, he makes way too much for his production and will almost certainly never play in another postseason game as a Giant.

There is really NO reason to play him after Sunday. But you can't just move the scout team QB into the line-up in 4 days.

Give Eli a home game against a division rival for fans to say goodbye. Then going into the bye week promote Lauletta so he has a full 2 weeks (next game is a Mon night game) to prepare and see what's up over the last 7 games.

SupremeCommander
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10/24/2018  3:41 PM
This team is structurally flawed. Great Giants teams of the past - even recent past - had great offensive lines and great pass rushes. We have a complete absence of both right now. The only thing to do is tear it down and/or light it on fire.

I think these deals create cap space. If Eli isn't on the team the Giants will have $50 million. With all these picks we are getting we can fill the roster with depth that fits the system.

The offense basically needs to be rebuilt from scratch. The defense is transitioning from 4-3 to 3-4. I am so glad that the Giants took their heads out of their asses and blew it up because if there was inaction December would be a **** show

Sambakick wrote: Gives a whole new meaning to "Jazz Hands"
HofstraBBall
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10/24/2018  3:42 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/24/2018  3:45 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:Do think it is getting close for Eli to move on but disagree that it is entirely his fault.

He's old for an NFL player, his production has been in decline, he plays a game increasingly out of style in the NFL and the worst possible style for his offensive line, he makes way too much for his production and will almost certainly never play in another postseason game as a Giant.

There is really NO reason to play him after Sunday. But you can't just move the scout team QB into the line-up in 4 days.

Give Eli a home game against a division rival for fans to say goodbye. Then going into the bye week promote Lauletta so he has a full 2 weeks (next game is a Mon night game) to prepare and see what's up over the last 7 games.

Not as bad as you make him to be. His completion percentage is currently higher than any of his previous years. So is his QBR. On pace to pass for more yards than every year except maybe 2011. Low Int count. Is he slowing dowm and an easier to expose with a bad O Line? yep. But no way the main cause and no way a coach is going to bench a 2 time SB champ when he is putting up respectable numbers. Would be narrow finger pointing. Btw, not really a good idea to stick a guy with no QB experience behind a struggling offensive line.


Is he the future of the franchise....think everyone knows he is not.

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
Knickoftime
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10/24/2018  3:50 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:Do think it is getting close for Eli to move on but disagree that it is entirely his fault.

He's old for an NFL player, his production has been in decline, he plays a game increasingly out of style in the NFL and the worst possible style for his offensive line, he makes way too much for his production and will almost certainly never play in another postseason game as a Giant.

There is really NO reason to play him after Sunday. But you can't just move the scout team QB into the line-up in 4 days.

Give Eli a home game against a division rival for fans to say goodbye. Then going into the bye week promote Lauletta so he has a full 2 weeks (next game is a Mon night game) to prepare and see what's up over the last 7 games.

Not as bad as you make him to be. His completion percentage is currently higher than any of his previous years. So is his QBR. On pace to pass for more yards than every year except maybe 2011. Is he slowing dowm and an easier to expose with a bad O Line? yep. But no way the main cause and no way a coach is going to bench a 2 time SB champ when he is putting up respectable numbers. Would be narrow finger pointing. Btw, not really a good idea to stick a guy with no QB experience behind a struggling offensive line.

His arguable level of play is beside the point. His level of blame is beside the point.

What is the point of playing him?

You can't say its to give the Giants a better shot in the remaining 8 games because at 1-6(7) that's actually counterproductive.

So what's the point of playing him the last 8 games?

If it's not to throw Lauletta to the wolves, okay, then play Tanney.

Playing Eli Manning is officially pointless unless you put stock in some nostalgic farewell tour.

BigDaddyG
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10/24/2018  3:50 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:Do think it is getting close for Eli to move on but disagree that it is entirely his fault.

He's old for an NFL player, his production has been in decline, he plays a game increasingly out of style in the NFL and the worst possible style for his offensive line, he makes way too much for his production and will almost certainly never play in another postseason game as a Giant.

There is really NO reason to play him after Sunday. But you can't just move the scout team QB into the line-up in 4 days.

Give Eli a home game against a division rival for fans to say goodbye. Then going into the bye week promote Lauletta so he has a full 2 weeks (next game is a Mon night game) to prepare and see what's up over the last 7 games.

Not as bad as you make him to be. His completion percentage is currently higher than any of his previous years. So is his QBR. On pace to pass for more yards than every year except maybe 2011. Is he slowing dowm and an easier to expose with a bad O Line? yep. But no way the main cause and no way a coach is going to bench a 2 time SB champ when he is putting up respectable numbers. Would be narrow finger pointing.


Is he the future of the franchise....think everyone knows he is not.


Then what do we do. We need to invest more into our offensive line first off, but then what's next. We need a QB. I can understand keeping Eli around if we draft an heir apparent. But what's the point of keeping him around if the absolute best we can hope for next season is 8-9 wins?

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Knickoftime
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10/24/2018  4:09 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:. But what's the point of keeping him around if the absolute best we can hope for next season is 8-9 wins?

Pretty sure Gettlemen has signaled that isn't even part of the plan.

They've punted on next season, as they should. Manning will NOT be in a Giants uniform in September 2019. His Giants career is over sometimes in the next 10 weeks. ONE more game makes sense.

I don't know that there is any upside to playing 2 to 9 more games.

HofstraBBall
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10/24/2018  4:29 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:Do think it is getting close for Eli to move on but disagree that it is entirely his fault.

He's old for an NFL player, his production has been in decline, he plays a game increasingly out of style in the NFL and the worst possible style for his offensive line, he makes way too much for his production and will almost certainly never play in another postseason game as a Giant.

There is really NO reason to play him after Sunday. But you can't just move the scout team QB into the line-up in 4 days.

Give Eli a home game against a division rival for fans to say goodbye. Then going into the bye week promote Lauletta so he has a full 2 weeks (next game is a Mon night game) to prepare and see what's up over the last 7 games.

Not as bad as you make him to be. His completion percentage is currently higher than any of his previous years. So is his QBR. On pace to pass for more yards than every year except maybe 2011. Is he slowing dowm and an easier to expose with a bad O Line? yep. But no way the main cause and no way a coach is going to bench a 2 time SB champ when he is putting up respectable numbers. Would be narrow finger pointing. Btw, not really a good idea to stick a guy with no QB experience behind a struggling offensive line.

His arguable level of play is beside the point. His level of blame is beside the point.

What is the point of playing him?

You can't say its to give the Giants a better shot in the remaining 8 games because at 1-6(7) that's actually counterproductive.

So what's the point of playing him the last 8 games?

If it's not to throw Lauletta to the wolves, okay, then play Tanney.

Playing Eli Manning is officially pointless unless you put stock in some nostalgic farewell tour.

Arguable was you original claim about his play. Actual was my post.

As for the point of playing either of the two back ups? Who have no experience and are clearly not the future. Pointless.
To bench the guy that is still performing at his previous level in spite of one of the worst O lines in the league. Pointless. No?

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
Knickoftime
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10/24/2018  4:43 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/24/2018  4:46 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:Do think it is getting close for Eli to move on but disagree that it is entirely his fault.

He's old for an NFL player, his production has been in decline, he plays a game increasingly out of style in the NFL and the worst possible style for his offensive line, he makes way too much for his production and will almost certainly never play in another postseason game as a Giant.

There is really NO reason to play him after Sunday. But you can't just move the scout team QB into the line-up in 4 days.

Give Eli a home game against a division rival for fans to say goodbye. Then going into the bye week promote Lauletta so he has a full 2 weeks (next game is a Mon night game) to prepare and see what's up over the last 7 games.

Not as bad as you make him to be. His completion percentage is currently higher than any of his previous years. So is his QBR. On pace to pass for more yards than every year except maybe 2011. Is he slowing dowm and an easier to expose with a bad O Line? yep. But no way the main cause and no way a coach is going to bench a 2 time SB champ when he is putting up respectable numbers. Would be narrow finger pointing. Btw, not really a good idea to stick a guy with no QB experience behind a struggling offensive line.

His arguable level of play is beside the point. His level of blame is beside the point.

What is the point of playing him?

You can't say its to give the Giants a better shot in the remaining 8 games because at 1-6(7) that's actually counterproductive.

So what's the point of playing him the last 8 games?

If it's not to throw Lauletta to the wolves, okay, then play Tanney.

Playing Eli Manning is officially pointless unless you put stock in some nostalgic farewell tour.

Arguable was you original claim about his play. Actual was my post.

I see a player who has NO hope of extending a play, ever. I see a player who is still clearly more comfortable with check downs then taking the time to look downfield. I see a player who is 100% understandably gun shy.

The measure of an NFL QB isn't a hot quarter or a good completion % and some down the field plays against one of the NFL's worst Ds. You can't say the best snippets of Manning is what his level of play would be all the time under the right circumstances (of which there is no hope for being).

You are who you are, full body of work included. He's not a good NFL QB in October of 2018 anymore, and again, there's absolutely no shame in that.

As for the point of playing either of the two back ups? Who have no experience and are clearly not the future. Pointless.

The current front office drafted one of the QB's with a 4th round selection, and since they didn't make him the back-up in their preseason plan to be competitive, they didn't draft him to be the back-up. Whether they drafted a project or not still suggests they drafted him because they liked something about him.

So let's see what he can do.

To bench the guy that is still performing at his previous level in spite of one of the worst O lines in the league. Pointless. No?

You've responded to question in the negative.

What is the point of playing Manning the last 8 games?

Please try to answer by endorsing the point of playing him directly, and not just finding fault in the other options.

Playing Eli Manning on the back-half of the schedule is a good thing for the future of the NY Giants because _________________________?

HofstraBBall
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10/24/2018  4:50 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:Do think it is getting close for Eli to move on but disagree that it is entirely his fault.

He's old for an NFL player, his production has been in decline, he plays a game increasingly out of style in the NFL and the worst possible style for his offensive line, he makes way too much for his production and will almost certainly never play in another postseason game as a Giant.

There is really NO reason to play him after Sunday. But you can't just move the scout team QB into the line-up in 4 days.

Give Eli a home game against a division rival for fans to say goodbye. Then going into the bye week promote Lauletta so he has a full 2 weeks (next game is a Mon night game) to prepare and see what's up over the last 7 games.

Not as bad as you make him to be. His completion percentage is currently higher than any of his previous years. So is his QBR. On pace to pass for more yards than every year except maybe 2011. Is he slowing dowm and an easier to expose with a bad O Line? yep. But no way the main cause and no way a coach is going to bench a 2 time SB champ when he is putting up respectable numbers. Would be narrow finger pointing.


Is he the future of the franchise....think everyone knows he is not.


Then what do we do. We need to invest more into our offensive line first off, but then what's next. We need a QB. I can understand keeping Eli around if we draft an heir apparent. But what's the point of keeping him around if the absolute best we can hope for next season is 8-9 wins?


Thats the thing. do we know for a fact that any other QB will net us more than 8 or 9 wins if we don't change our other issues? When a team is this bad there are many things that need to change. For fans the first knee jerk reaction is change the QB. As mentioned, think the Giants know this change is coming but see only lateral options atm. Imo, you first need to fix the more obvious issues. The O line. Pretty important in order for any offense to be successful. Both for the pass and run. We have no one that has shown to be a true starter in the NFL. Second we need to improve our secondary. Some of the trades today give insight to the confidence the FO had with the current personnel. The lack of pass rush. Having to blitz in order to get any kind of pressure on opposing QB's exposes you secondary. We also need to draft a QB that has clear potential to be the future starting QB. Or trade for one that has potential to play at a high level. To just say bench Eli is short sighted and wont produce any more wins if other major weaknesses continue. Imo.

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
HofstraBBall
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10/24/2018  4:59 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/24/2018  5:02 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:Do think it is getting close for Eli to move on but disagree that it is entirely his fault.

He's old for an NFL player, his production has been in decline, he plays a game increasingly out of style in the NFL and the worst possible style for his offensive line, he makes way too much for his production and will almost certainly never play in another postseason game as a Giant.

There is really NO reason to play him after Sunday. But you can't just move the scout team QB into the line-up in 4 days.

Give Eli a home game against a division rival for fans to say goodbye. Then going into the bye week promote Lauletta so he has a full 2 weeks (next game is a Mon night game) to prepare and see what's up over the last 7 games.

Not as bad as you make him to be. His completion percentage is currently higher than any of his previous years. So is his QBR. On pace to pass for more yards than every year except maybe 2011. Is he slowing dowm and an easier to expose with a bad O Line? yep. But no way the main cause and no way a coach is going to bench a 2 time SB champ when he is putting up respectable numbers. Would be narrow finger pointing. Btw, not really a good idea to stick a guy with no QB experience behind a struggling offensive line.

His arguable level of play is beside the point. His level of blame is beside the point.

What is the point of playing him?

You can't say its to give the Giants a better shot in the remaining 8 games because at 1-6(7) that's actually counterproductive.

So what's the point of playing him the last 8 games?

If it's not to throw Lauletta to the wolves, okay, then play Tanney.

Playing Eli Manning is officially pointless unless you put stock in some nostalgic farewell tour.

Arguable was you original claim about his play. Actual was my post.

I see a player who has NO hope of extending a play, ever. I see a player who is still clearly more comfortable with check downs then taking the time to look downfield. I see a player who is 100% understandably gun shy.

The measure of an NFL QB isn't a hot quarter or a good completion % and some down the field plays against one of the NFL's worst Ds. You can't say the best snippets of Manning is what his level of play would be all the time under the right circumstances (of which there is no hope for being).

You are who you are, full body of work included. He's not a good NFL QB in October of 2018 anymore, and again, there's absolutely no shame in that.

As for the point of playing either of the two back ups? Who have no experience and are clearly not the future. Pointless.

The current front office drafted one of the QB's with a 4th round selection, and since they didn't make him the back-up in their preseason plan to be competitive, they didn't draft him to be the back-up. Whether they drafted a project or not still suggests they drafted him because they liked something about him.

So let's see what he can do.

To bench the guy that is still performing at his previous level in spite of one of the worst O lines in the league. Pointless. No?

You've responded to question in the negative.

What is the point of playing Manning the last 8 games?

Please try to answer by endorsing the point of playing him directly, and not just finding fault in the other options.

Playing Eli Manning on the back-half of the schedule is a good thing for the future of the NY Giants because he is the MOST capable on the roster? Last I checked you don't give the starting job to the 3rd rated QB on the team.

Again, your claiming to see many things. Except the facts. Fact is his production, in spite of the O line, is not declining. And not just in his Comp %.

Fascinating that every weakness you mentioned does not produce any correlation, for you, to the O line being the key issue.

The time to see if a marginal draft pick is ready for a NFL game is during practices, training camps and pre season. Not the 8th game of the season behind a struggling offensive line. Think the coach already knows what you fail to accept unless its shown to you.

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
Knickoftime
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10/24/2018  5:06 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:Thats the thing. do we know for a fact that any other QB will net us more than 8 or 9 wins if we don't change our other issues?

I think there is a relatively reasonable certainty NO QB would result or 8 or 9 wins next season before other issues are improved.

Which is kind of the whole point.

Eli Manning is NOT the 2019 QB or the 2020 QB, therefore his presence is officially pointless now that the punt team is on the field.

When a team is this bad there are many things that need to change.

Certainly.

For fans the first knee jerk reaction is change the QB.

No.

THIS particular QB, yes.


Imo, you first need to fix the more obvious issues. The O line. Pretty important in order for any offense to be successful. Both for the pass and run. We have no one that has shown to be a true starter in the NFL. Second we need to improve our secondary. Some of the trades today give insight to the confidence the FO had with the current personnel. The lack of pass rush. Having to blitz in order to get any kind of pressure on opposing QB's exposes you secondary.

I'm not sure I see the point of there being an order here. Moves to improve these areas with eye on on 2020-21 should all be done concurrently.

Manning is a placeholder, period.

We also need to draft a QB that has clear potential to be the future starting QB. Or trade for one that has potential to play at a high level.

1.) It is very unusual for the NY Giants to carry 3 QBs on the roster. And they already Webb before the draft. They did not spend a 4th round pick AND carry a roster spot on a QB they drafted to be a future back-up.

Whether or not you believe a 4th round pick can ever be a starting QB and/or think you saw something conclusive in the preseason, the fact is the Giants used a pick and a roster spot in a year they were trying to compete on a QB.

They did that because they think something may be there.

To just say bench Eli is short sighted and wont produce any more wins if other major weaknesses continue. Imo.

It won't produce a single more win if the Giants don't improve significantly in all those areas. 100% correct.

But playing him the last 8 games of this season won't produce a single positive outcome.

Which is again the point.

Knickoftime
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10/24/2018  5:24 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:Do think it is getting close for Eli to move on but disagree that it is entirely his fault.

He's old for an NFL player, his production has been in decline, he plays a game increasingly out of style in the NFL and the worst possible style for his offensive line, he makes way too much for his production and will almost certainly never play in another postseason game as a Giant.

There is really NO reason to play him after Sunday. But you can't just move the scout team QB into the line-up in 4 days.

Give Eli a home game against a division rival for fans to say goodbye. Then going into the bye week promote Lauletta so he has a full 2 weeks (next game is a Mon night game) to prepare and see what's up over the last 7 games.

Not as bad as you make him to be. His completion percentage is currently higher than any of his previous years. So is his QBR. On pace to pass for more yards than every year except maybe 2011. Is he slowing dowm and an easier to expose with a bad O Line? yep. But no way the main cause and no way a coach is going to bench a 2 time SB champ when he is putting up respectable numbers. Would be narrow finger pointing. Btw, not really a good idea to stick a guy with no QB experience behind a struggling offensive line.

His arguable level of play is beside the point. His level of blame is beside the point.

What is the point of playing him?

You can't say its to give the Giants a better shot in the remaining 8 games because at 1-6(7) that's actually counterproductive.

So what's the point of playing him the last 8 games?

If it's not to throw Lauletta to the wolves, okay, then play Tanney.

Playing Eli Manning is officially pointless unless you put stock in some nostalgic farewell tour.

Arguable was you original claim about his play. Actual was my post.

I see a player who has NO hope of extending a play, ever. I see a player who is still clearly more comfortable with check downs then taking the time to look downfield. I see a player who is 100% understandably gun shy.

The measure of an NFL QB isn't a hot quarter or a good completion % and some down the field plays against one of the NFL's worst Ds. You can't say the best snippets of Manning is what his level of play would be all the time under the right circumstances (of which there is no hope for being).

You are who you are, full body of work included. He's not a good NFL QB in October of 2018 anymore, and again, there's absolutely no shame in that.

As for the point of playing either of the two back ups? Who have no experience and are clearly not the future. Pointless.

The current front office drafted one of the QB's with a 4th round selection, and since they didn't make him the back-up in their preseason plan to be competitive, they didn't draft him to be the back-up. Whether they drafted a project or not still suggests they drafted him because they liked something about him.

So let's see what he can do.

To bench the guy that is still performing at his previous level in spite of one of the worst O lines in the league. Pointless. No?

You've responded to question in the negative.

What is the point of playing Manning the last 8 games?

Please try to answer by endorsing the point of playing him directly, and not just finding fault in the other options.

Playing Eli Manning on the back-half of the schedule is a good thing for the future of the NY Giants because he is the MOST capable on the roster? Last I checked you don't give the starting job to the 3rd rated QB on the team.

Again, your claiming to see many things. Except the facts. Fact is his production, in spite of the O line, is not declining. And not just in his Comp %.

Do points count?

Fact is the Giants are one of the league's lowest scoring teams, a season after being one of the league's worst scoring teams.

You can't remove scoring from QB "production."

The needle you appear to be trying to thread is Eli's 'production' is the same so you can't say he's not as good as he used to be, but at the same time you seem to want to attribute the lack of scoring to the O-line. That's some nifty tap dancing :-)

I saw a guy whose numbers/production in the red zone Monday night matched the eye test of his current skillset and terrible execution in the red zone Monday night.

Fascinating that every weakness you mentioned does not produce any correlation, for you, to the O line being the key issue.

So the point of NFL offense is completion % and not scoring?

Lack of scoring isn't correlated with QB production?

And I've made it clear I hold the O-line completely responsible for Manning's issues. But after several years of this and at 37 years old it'd not just going to go away with a new o-line (which btw, isn't walking through the door).

I think if he'd been behind a better line the last few years he might still be on Rothlesbergers or Rivers level. To some degree. I think his mobility and inability to extend plays is what it is. But the point is he hasn't been. Being under duress so long so consistently HAS affected him negatively.

The Giants o-line has 100% taken productive years off his career. But that doesn't change the fact it has and there is not going back.

The time to see if a marginal draft pick is ready for a NFL game is during practices, training camps and pre season. Not the 8th game of the season behind a struggling offensive line.

You still haven't answered what is the point of playing Manning in week 9?

What is it?

PresIke
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10/24/2018  8:25 PM
Allanfan20 wrote:I don’t pay attention to college football.... AT ALL. What kind of top flight players are avilable to us if we keep this losing pace?

I heard somewhere this year's draft is not all that.

Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
HofstraBBall
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10/24/2018  8:27 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:Thats the thing. do we know for a fact that any other QB will net us more than 8 or 9 wins if we don't change our other issues?

I think there is a relatively reasonable certainty NO QB would result or 8 or 9 wins next season before other issues are improved. So you agree there is no point to changing Eli..good

Which is kind of the whole point.

Eli Manning is NOT the 2019 QB or the 2020 QB, therefore his presence is officially pointless now that the punt team is on the field. Can you lend me your crystal ball. Or lets just make friendly wager that Eli will infact be the 2019-2020 QB

When a team is this bad there are many things that need to change.

Certainly. You agree again. Your getting better...

For fans the first knee jerk reaction is change the QB.

No.

THIS particular QB, yes. Again, just cuz you say it does not make it true. Stats to back it up?

Imo, you first need to fix the more obvious issues. The O line. Pretty important in order for any offense to be successful. Both for the pass and run. We have no one that has shown to be a true starter in the NFL. Second we need to improve our secondary. Some of the trades today give insight to the confidence the FO had with the current personnel. The lack of pass rush. Having to blitz in order to get any kind of pressure on opposing QB's exposes you secondary.

I'm not sure I see the point of there being an order here. Moves to improve these areas with eye on on 2020-21 should all be done concurrently. There absolutely is a point. But if you did not understand, in football the offensive line is the most important part of any offense. First point of contact. But that does not matter. Lets just bench all the players fans think are the issue.

Manning is a placeholder, period.

We also need to draft a QB that has clear potential to be the future starting QB. Or trade for one that has potential to play at a high level.

1.) It is very unusual for the NY Giants to carry 3 QBs on the roster. And they already Webb before the draft. They did not spend a 4th round pick AND carry a roster spot on a QB they drafted to be a future back-up.

Whether or not you believe a 4th round pick can ever be a starting QB and/or think you saw something conclusive in the preseason, the fact is the Giants used a pick and a roster spot in a year they were trying to compete on a QB. Ok, so your going to have a frustrating rest of the year hoping your 4th round dream comes in and gets some burn. Good luck with that.

They did that because they think something may be there.

To just say bench Eli is short sighted and wont produce any more wins if other major weaknesses continue. Imo.

It won't produce a single more win if the Giants don't improve significantly in all those areas. 100% correct. Great

But playing him the last 8 games of this season won't produce a single positive outcome.

Which is again the point. And playing a 4th round QB will? For who? The 4th round QB auditioning for his next bench role with another team?

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
HofstraBBall
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10/24/2018  8:42 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/24/2018  8:48 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:Do think it is getting close for Eli to move on but disagree that it is entirely his fault.

He's old for an NFL player, his production has been in decline, he plays a game increasingly out of style in the NFL and the worst possible style for his offensive line, he makes way too much for his production and will almost certainly never play in another postseason game as a Giant.

There is really NO reason to play him after Sunday. But you can't just move the scout team QB into the line-up in 4 days.

Give Eli a home game against a division rival for fans to say goodbye. Then going into the bye week promote Lauletta so he has a full 2 weeks (next game is a Mon night game) to prepare and see what's up over the last 7 games.

Not as bad as you make him to be. His completion percentage is currently higher than any of his previous years. So is his QBR. On pace to pass for more yards than every year except maybe 2011. Is he slowing dowm and an easier to expose with a bad O Line? yep. But no way the main cause and no way a coach is going to bench a 2 time SB champ when he is putting up respectable numbers. Would be narrow finger pointing. Btw, not really a good idea to stick a guy with no QB experience behind a struggling offensive line.

His arguable level of play is beside the point. His level of blame is beside the point.

What is the point of playing him?

You can't say its to give the Giants a better shot in the remaining 8 games because at 1-6(7) that's actually counterproductive.

So what's the point of playing him the last 8 games?

If it's not to throw Lauletta to the wolves, okay, then play Tanney.

Playing Eli Manning is officially pointless unless you put stock in some nostalgic farewell tour.

Arguable was you original claim about his play. Actual was my post.

I see a player who has NO hope of extending a play, ever. I see a player who is still clearly more comfortable with check downs then taking the time to look downfield. I see a player who is 100% understandably gun shy.

The measure of an NFL QB isn't a hot quarter or a good completion % and some down the field plays against one of the NFL's worst Ds. You can't say the best snippets of Manning is what his level of play would be all the time under the right circumstances (of which there is no hope for being).

You are who you are, full body of work included. He's not a good NFL QB in October of 2018 anymore, and again, there's absolutely no shame in that.

As for the point of playing either of the two back ups? Who have no experience and are clearly not the future. Pointless.

The current front office drafted one of the QB's with a 4th round selection, and since they didn't make him the back-up in their preseason plan to be competitive, they didn't draft him to be the back-up. Whether they drafted a project or not still suggests they drafted him because they liked something about him.

So let's see what he can do.

To bench the guy that is still performing at his previous level in spite of one of the worst O lines in the league. Pointless. No?

You've responded to question in the negative.

What is the point of playing Manning the last 8 games?

Please try to answer by endorsing the point of playing him directly, and not just finding fault in the other options.

Playing Eli Manning on the back-half of the schedule is a good thing for the future of the NY Giants because he is the MOST capable on the roster? Last I checked you don't give the starting job to the 3rd rated QB on the team.

Again, your claiming to see many things. Except the facts. Fact is his production, in spite of the O line, is not declining. And not just in his Comp %.

Do points count? To win a game? Yes In figuring out if your QB should be benched? Individual stats, coaches evaluation means more. No?

Fact is the Giants are one of the league's lowest scoring teams, a season after being one of the league's worst scoring teams. Again, brush up on the importance of a solid front line to a teams offensive efficiency in the NFL.

You can't remove scoring from QB "production."

The needle you appear to be trying to thread is Eli's 'production' is the same so you can't say he's not as good as he used to be, but at the same time you seem to want to attribute the lack of scoring to the O-line. That's some nifty tap dancing :-) In that case lets call you Fred Astaire. See a pattern on your part? No matter how much you try to avoid it the real issue keeps coming back at you.

I saw a guy whose numbers/production in the red zone Monday night matched the eye test of his current skillset and terrible execution in the red zone Monday night. So when you saw Barkley stopped for a loss on several occasions, did you think he should be benched? Or did you not think the O line was to blame?

Fascinating that every weakness you mentioned does not produce any correlation, for you, to the O line being the key issue.

So the point of NFL offense is completion % and not scoring? Are you changing the debate? Thought we were debating the need for Eli to be benched. Don't think we have enough time to go over all of basic football principles.

Lack of scoring isn't correlated with QB production? Lets also bench Barkley and Beckham. Think there is a little correlation with your star WR and RB. Makes no sense does it?

And I've made it clear I hold the O-line completely responsible for Manning's issues. But after several years of this and at 37 years old it'd not just going to go away with a new o-line (which btw, isn't walking through the door).

I think if he'd been behind a better line the last few years he might still be on Rothlesbergers or Rivers level. To some degree. I think his mobility and inability to extend plays is what it is. But the point is he hasn't been. Being under duress so long so consistently HAS affected him negatively. Funny, think people have been saying the same thing about Eli since he came into the league. How many SB has he won? Rivers?

The Giants o-line has 100% taken productive years off his career. But that doesn't change the fact it has and there is not going back.

The time to see if a marginal draft pick is ready for a NFL game is during practices, training camps and pre season. Not the 8th game of the season behind a struggling offensive line.

You still haven't answered what is the point of playing Manning in week 9? Did you not see my answer in BOLD? NP He is the best available at that position. Last I checked that earns you the spot. Not fan opinion.

What is it?

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
Knickoftime
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10/25/2018  12:07 AM    LAST EDITED: 10/25/2018  12:09 AM
?? What's with using bold instead of quotes??

HofstraBBall wrote: So you agree there is no point to changing Eli..good

No, the point is cutting Manning after the seasons opens up $17m in cap space.

The point in benching him after Sunday is seeing what they have in Lauletta, who they didn't draft to be a career back-up.

Or lets just make friendly wager that Eli will infact be the 2019-2020 QB

You can make it ANY wager you like. Friendly, belligerent, expensive. Name your terms. I'm in.

Again, just cuz you say it does not make it true. Stats to back it up?

Sure.

37
$23.2m vs. $6.2m
Least pts scored in the NFL since the start of the 2017 season.
39% completion % in the red zone.

There absolutely is a point. But if you did not understand, in football the offensive line is the most important part of any offense. First point of contact. But that does not matter. Lets just bench all the players fans think are the issue.

Huh?

I'm not suggesting keeping the O-line in tact. I'm suggesting retool the line AND the QB at the same time.

You seem to want to argue with someone who doesn't think the O-line is a big problem, I'm just not that person.

And playing a 4th round QB will? For who? The 4th round QB auditioning for his next bench role with another team?

He may show SOME of why the Giants used a draft pick and a roster spot on QB. He may not, the point is you find out one way or another.

Which is one more point than playing Manning.

Knickoftime
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10/25/2018  12:34 AM
HofstraBBall wrote:Playing Eli Manning on the back-half of the schedule is a good thing for the future of the NY Giants because he is the MOST capable on the roster?

So at 1-6 the NY Giants should be trying to win their remaining games and negatively impact their draft capital?

So 4-12 is better than 1-15 or 2-14 for the future of the team?

So when you saw Barkley stopped for a loss on several occasions, did you think he should be benched? Or did you not think the O line was to blame?

I think the o-line is awful.

But I also know the Giants season is over. I don't think you quite grasp this concept.

I think Barkley will be on the Giants in 2 years. Manning won't.

I think the next time the NY Giants play a postseason game, there's a decent chance Barkley is playing in it. There is NO chance Manning will.

Manning's Giants postseason career is over.

That might not be the case for Barkley and Beckham and Shepard and Engram and Hernandez and maybe Collins.

This isn't rocket science.

Funny, think people have been saying the same thing about Eli since he came into the league. How many SB has he won? Rivers?

You're again making it very clear you're not grasping what I've written and prefer to invent your own opponent.

I love Manning. I think he's had a great, HoF career. I am in NO way a Twitter warrior nitpicking his flaws and comparing him negatively to his contemporaries. I'd sign up for his career again in a second knowing then what I know now. I totally understood why they selected Barkley and went for it this year.

Its just time. Right now he's not a playoff QB, and again... THERE IS NO SHAME IN THAT. It ends for everyone eventually, and 2018 is the end for him whether it's in November or December.

Did you not see my answer in BOLD? NP He is the best available at that position. Last I checked that earns you the spot. Not fan opinion.

So was Damon Harrison and Eli Apple.

nykshaknbake
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10/25/2018  12:42 AM
NYKBocker wrote:While Eli is not what he once was, he is not the problem. That OLine is horrible. I doubt any QB would be successful behind that **** show. BUT...It's to move on. I would like to see Lauleta get a chance now to see what he has.

Right now we have the following draft picks.
1st Round
2nd Round
4th Round (3 picks)
5th Round (2 Picks)
6th Round
7th Round (2 Picks)

We have 10 picks and counting.

With this fire sale, I believe these are the players that are available

Landon Collins - Possible 2nd or 3rd rounder
Jack Rabbit - 4th or 5th
Sterling Shepherd - Possible 2nd or 3rd
Engram - 2nd or 3rd

OBJ can't be traded due to the massive contract and cap hit.
Barkley is untouchable
Hernandez is untouchable

Then on the draft. Draft the top OT in the 1st round. Get your QB in the 2nd. Get a Guard, Center and DE in the next 3 picks. Then draft BAP.

I don't want Carr since he would cost a lot. We need to build the line to open holes for Barkley.

That O line is very very bad, but in the big spots when he's had opporotunities this season Eli has come up small. Even if you don't think he's done, it certainly isn't worth 20 mill to keep him. We have to play Lauletta to guide our draft. If we got lucky with him, it would really accelerate the rebuild. I would definitely trade Jackrabbit at this point and probably Olivier Vernon. You just aren't getting much for Engram at this point given how invisible he's been. If you can get a mid 2nd rounder for SHep, you do it. Hate to see him go though. I'm pretty sure they view Collins as a rebuilding piece though.

OT - NY Giants Teardown Underway

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