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OT - NY Giants Teardown Underway
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Moonangie
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10/24/2018  9:30 AM
At 1-6 for the second year in a row, this was inevitable. IMO, it's a smart move as there is clearly not a team in place to call "win now".

Eli Apple traded to Saints for a 2019 fourth rounder and 2020 seventh rounder
Snacks Harrison traded to Lions for a 2019 fifth rounder

Substantial salary cap savings in 2019 on these moves, with some dead money, too.

Thoughts on the next moves and/or advisability of this rebuild?

AUTOADVERT
Allanfan20
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10/24/2018  9:34 AM
I don’t pay attention to college football.... AT ALL. What kind of top flight players are avilable to us if we keep this losing pace?
“An arrow can only be shot by pulling it backwards.” - Paulo Coelho
Allanfan20
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10/24/2018  9:41 AM
It sucks because we have a number of winnable games the rest of the season. The Giants f’ed up pretty badly by thinking they could compete for a superbowl this year.
“An arrow can only be shot by pulling it backwards.” - Paulo Coelho
Moonangie
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10/24/2018  9:44 AM
Word, major misjudgment by the new management team. Still, I'm stoked about Saquon's future as a Giant. He's incredible, and thankfully, young.
Cartman718
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10/24/2018  10:15 AM
Eli's gotta go. We need a new stud there.
Nixluva is posting triangle screen grabs, even when nobody asks - Fishmike. LOL So are we going to reference that thread like the bible now? "The thread of Wroten Page 14 post 9" - EnySpree
knicks1248
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10/24/2018  10:24 AM    LAST EDITED: 10/24/2018  10:25 AM
Cartman718 wrote:Eli's gotta go. We need a new stud there.

not a Giants fan at all, but both of My best friends are, and I have been telling them that for the last 4 yrs. Flacco and ELI are the most overrated QB's in the NFL.

Both got big contract base on a couple of good Playoff games that led to a super bowl title, but in all reality it was their defense that really propelled them

ES
Moonangie
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10/24/2018  10:41 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:Eli's gotta go. We need a new stud there.

not a Giants fan at all, but both of My best friends are, and I have been telling them that for the last 4 yrs. Flacco and ELI are the most overrated QB's in the NFL.

Both got big contract base on a couple of good Playoff games that led to a super bowl title, but in all reality it was their defense that really propelled them

No doubt, defense is always the key to winning a Superbowl. But Eli was an excellent game manager, despite his obvious limitations in the QB1 role (i.e., lack of mobility, need for a stout O-line).

It's obvious last year and this year that Eli has lost faith in his protection, which has resulted in a serious diminishment in his accuracy and decision-making.

Makes sense to rebuild, although I doubt OBJ will be happy about wasting his prime years. He'll demand a trade next season.

Nalod
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10/24/2018  11:15 AM
Eli no doubt best days behind him.
I like the respect they have shown him (except for last year) but its tough to say "its time".
Really what is wrong with the team? offensive line? Defense? Does Eli's stats tell a bad story or is it the result of other deficit's?
Rainman got the "last four years" thing going telling his friends, but for all its worth Eli has two things many others can say:
"Two time world champion"!!!!

So for all of his warts, Eli has gotten the job done when it counted BIG TIME! There are better QB's and he was never "the best", but he did deliver. Im not a football savant like RainMan1248 that can predict the past, but if its time then its time for him to move on so beit. Easy to point fingers at the QB.

2020-21-The year of eating Crow
franco12
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10/24/2018  11:54 AM
Definitely OT - but I was thinking about creating a thread on the Giants, and then comparing them to our beloved Knicks who might be in a similar boat record wise when both seasons end.

But the differences are huge.

We're actually young and rebuilding - the Giants went Starphuck and misjudged tremendously. And they need to tear it down.

The Giants have drafted poorly for a decade or so, and Flowers and Apple are examples of that, and it shows.

If they had a decent offense line, then Eli would not be the problem that people think he is. Swap Brady for Eli, and they are 1 and 6, maybe 2 & 5.

Hopefully the Giants start to rebuild much faster - they can jettison contracts and players unlike the NBA at a higher rate.

BigDaddyG
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10/24/2018  12:08 PM
Moonangie wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:Eli's gotta go. We need a new stud there.

not a Giants fan at all, but both of My best friends are, and I have been telling them that for the last 4 yrs. Flacco and ELI are the most overrated QB's in the NFL.

Both got big contract base on a couple of good Playoff games that led to a super bowl title, but in all reality it was their defense that really propelled them

No doubt, defense is always the key to winning a Superbowl. But Eli was an excellent game manager, despite his obvious limitations in the QB1 role (i.e., lack of mobility, need for a stout O-line).

It's obvious last year and this year that Eli has lost faith in his protection, which has resulted in a serious diminishment in his accuracy and decision-making.

Makes sense to rebuild, although I doubt OBJ will be happy about wasting his prime years. He'll demand a trade next season.

Yeah, Eli made some tremendous plays that helped us tremendously in our Super Bowl wins. That said, it was hard to tell how much Eli had in the tank because our offensive line was that bad. Heck, I didn't think our running back corps from last year was terrible. We spent a lot of money on the line this year and we still suck. I'm still not sure if Eli is completely washed. That said, I think we should've picked a QB in the last draft. Barkley is a beast, but it's painful to the watch him burn his best years on a trash team. Well, I'm glad the rebuild is starting in earnest.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Moonangie
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10/24/2018  12:20 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
Moonangie wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:Eli's gotta go. We need a new stud there.

not a Giants fan at all, but both of My best friends are, and I have been telling them that for the last 4 yrs. Flacco and ELI are the most overrated QB's in the NFL.

Both got big contract base on a couple of good Playoff games that led to a super bowl title, but in all reality it was their defense that really propelled them

No doubt, defense is always the key to winning a Superbowl. But Eli was an excellent game manager, despite his obvious limitations in the QB1 role (i.e., lack of mobility, need for a stout O-line).

It's obvious last year and this year that Eli has lost faith in his protection, which has resulted in a serious diminishment in his accuracy and decision-making.

Makes sense to rebuild, although I doubt OBJ will be happy about wasting his prime years. He'll demand a trade next season.

Yeah, Eli made some tremendous plays that helped us tremendously in our Super Bowl wins. That said, it was hard to tell how much Eli had in the tank because our offensive line was that bad. Heck, I didn't think our running back corps from last year was terrible. We spent a lot of money on the line this year and we still suck. I'm still not sure if Eli is completely washed. That said, I think we should've picked a QB in the last draft. Barkley is a beast, but it's painful to the watch him burn his best years on a trash team. Well, I'm glad the rebuild is starting in earnest.

He's a rookie. His best years are a bit down the line. Rebuild won't take that long. It will involve solid drafting AND use of newly reacquired cap space on solid FA signings (i.e., read "not guys like Nate Solder").

BigDaddyG
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10/24/2018  12:28 PM
Moonangie wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
Moonangie wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:Eli's gotta go. We need a new stud there.

not a Giants fan at all, but both of My best friends are, and I have been telling them that for the last 4 yrs. Flacco and ELI are the most overrated QB's in the NFL.

Both got big contract base on a couple of good Playoff games that led to a super bowl title, but in all reality it was their defense that really propelled them

No doubt, defense is always the key to winning a Superbowl. But Eli was an excellent game manager, despite his obvious limitations in the QB1 role (i.e., lack of mobility, need for a stout O-line).

It's obvious last year and this year that Eli has lost faith in his protection, which has resulted in a serious diminishment in his accuracy and decision-making.

Makes sense to rebuild, although I doubt OBJ will be happy about wasting his prime years. He'll demand a trade next season.

Yeah, Eli made some tremendous plays that helped us tremendously in our Super Bowl wins. That said, it was hard to tell how much Eli had in the tank because our offensive line was that bad. Heck, I didn't think our running back corps from last year was terrible. We spent a lot of money on the line this year and we still suck. I'm still not sure if Eli is completely washed. That said, I think we should've picked a QB in the last draft. Barkley is a beast, but it's painful to the watch him burn his best years on a trash team. Well, I'm glad the rebuild is starting in earnest.

He's a rookie. His best years are a bit down the line. Rebuild won't take that long. It will involve solid drafting AND use of newly reacquired cap space on solid FA signings (i.e., read "not guys like Nate Solder").


I hope. But it depends on this front office. We don't even have to travel to look at another local rootball team that's been stuck in a never-ending rebuild. The front office definitely miscalculated this season. How is this QB class BTW? Would you guys be down for trading someone like Derek Carr.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
anrst
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10/24/2018  12:44 PM
put Barkley in bubble wrap til 2020
Allanfan20
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10/24/2018  12:55 PM
Moonangie wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
Moonangie wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:Eli's gotta go. We need a new stud there.

not a Giants fan at all, but both of My best friends are, and I have been telling them that for the last 4 yrs. Flacco and ELI are the most overrated QB's in the NFL.

Both got big contract base on a couple of good Playoff games that led to a super bowl title, but in all reality it was their defense that really propelled them

No doubt, defense is always the key to winning a Superbowl. But Eli was an excellent game manager, despite his obvious limitations in the QB1 role (i.e., lack of mobility, need for a stout O-line).

It's obvious last year and this year that Eli has lost faith in his protection, which has resulted in a serious diminishment in his accuracy and decision-making.

Makes sense to rebuild, although I doubt OBJ will be happy about wasting his prime years. He'll demand a trade next season.

Yeah, Eli made some tremendous plays that helped us tremendously in our Super Bowl wins. That said, it was hard to tell how much Eli had in the tank because our offensive line was that bad. Heck, I didn't think our running back corps from last year was terrible. We spent a lot of money on the line this year and we still suck. I'm still not sure if Eli is completely washed. That said, I think we should've picked a QB in the last draft. Barkley is a beast, but it's painful to the watch him burn his best years on a trash team. Well, I'm glad the rebuild is starting in earnest.

He's a rookie. His best years are a bit down the line. Rebuild won't take that long. It will involve solid drafting AND use of newly reacquired cap space on solid FA signings (i.e., read "not guys like Nate Solder").

He’s also a running back who has already been dinged up. I believe RBs have an average of a 3 year shelf life. If the front office is saying “ahh, his best years are ahead of him. No worries” then I want a new front office. You don’t draft a potential HOF rb (yes, he is that good) with a poor o-line and diminished QB for the sake of rebuilding for the future. You’re hoping he is the savior.

I hate to be the douchebag that says it but we are not going anywhere unless we improve our o-line and improve the QB position AND OBJ grows up AND the defense improves. That’s A LOT of work!

Maybe we need to trade both OBJ and SB... and I love SB. We aren’t going anywhere now though. The Knicks have a brighter looking future!!

“An arrow can only be shot by pulling it backwards.” - Paulo Coelho
Cartman718
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10/24/2018  1:01 PM
anrst wrote:put Barkley in bubble wrap til 2020

that's the part i hate...we got a stud RB and dude is suffering (unlike Ezekiel in his rookie year) thanks to a QB who can't do **** anymore.

Nixluva is posting triangle screen grabs, even when nobody asks - Fishmike. LOL So are we going to reference that thread like the bible now? "The thread of Wroten Page 14 post 9" - EnySpree
NYKBocker
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10/24/2018  1:22 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/24/2018  1:24 PM
While Eli is not what he once was, he is not the problem. That OLine is horrible. I doubt any QB would be successful behind that **** show. BUT...It's to move on. I would like to see Lauleta get a chance now to see what he has.

Right now we have the following draft picks.
1st Round
2nd Round
4th Round (3 picks)
5th Round (2 Picks)
6th Round
7th Round (2 Picks)

We have 10 picks and counting.

With this fire sale, I believe these are the players that are available

Landon Collins - Possible 2nd or 3rd rounder
Jack Rabbit - 4th or 5th
Sterling Shepherd - Possible 2nd or 3rd
Engram - 2nd or 3rd

OBJ can't be traded due to the massive contract and cap hit.
Barkley is untouchable
Hernandez is untouchable

Then on the draft. Draft the top OT in the 1st round. Get your QB in the 2nd. Get a Guard, Center and DE in the next 3 picks. Then draft BAP.

I don't want Carr since he would cost a lot. We need to build the line to open holes for Barkley.

Knickoftime
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10/24/2018  1:22 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/24/2018  1:33 PM
Allanfan20 wrote:
Moonangie wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
Moonangie wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:Eli's gotta go. We need a new stud there.

not a Giants fan at all, but both of My best friends are, and I have been telling them that for the last 4 yrs. Flacco and ELI are the most overrated QB's in the NFL.

Both got big contract base on a couple of good Playoff games that led to a super bowl title, but in all reality it was their defense that really propelled them

No doubt, defense is always the key to winning a Superbowl. But Eli was an excellent game manager, despite his obvious limitations in the QB1 role (i.e., lack of mobility, need for a stout O-line).

It's obvious last year and this year that Eli has lost faith in his protection, which has resulted in a serious diminishment in his accuracy and decision-making.

Makes sense to rebuild, although I doubt OBJ will be happy about wasting his prime years. He'll demand a trade next season.

Yeah, Eli made some tremendous plays that helped us tremendously in our Super Bowl wins. That said, it was hard to tell how much Eli had in the tank because our offensive line was that bad. Heck, I didn't think our running back corps from last year was terrible. We spent a lot of money on the line this year and we still suck. I'm still not sure if Eli is completely washed. That said, I think we should've picked a QB in the last draft. Barkley is a beast, but it's painful to the watch him burn his best years on a trash team. Well, I'm glad the rebuild is starting in earnest.

He's a rookie. His best years are a bit down the line. Rebuild won't take that long. It will involve solid drafting AND use of newly reacquired cap space on solid FA signings (i.e., read "not guys like Nate Solder").

He’s also a running back who has already been dinged up. I believe RBs have an average of a 3 year shelf life. If the front office is saying “ahh, his best years are ahead of him. No worries” then I want a new front office. You don’t draft a potential HOF rb (yes, he is that good) with a poor o-line and diminished QB for the sake of rebuilding for the future. You’re hoping he is the savior.

I hate to be the douchebag that says it but we are not going anywhere unless we improve our o-line and improve the QB position AND OBJ grows up AND the defense improves. That’s A LOT of work!

Maybe we need to trade both OBJ and SB... and I love SB. We aren’t going anywhere now though. The Knicks have a brighter looking future!!

Running backs have a low average shelf-like because the prospects and back-ups who make up a bulk of the running backs tend to come and go VERY quickly.

The top guys have a much longer shelf-life, although lower than avg for skill positions.

Todd Gurley was 7-9 his rookie year and 4-12 his second year, in which Goff didn't see the field until the 10th game.

That worked out okay.

Knickoftime
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10/24/2018  1:29 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/24/2018  1:34 PM
NYKBocker wrote:While Eli is not what he once was, he is not the problem. That OLine is horrible. I doubt any QB would be successful behind that **** show. BUT...It's to move on. I would like to see Lauleta get a chance now to see what he has.

Right now we have the following draft picks.
1st Round
2nd Round
4th Round (3 picks)
5th Round (2 Picks)
6th Round
7th Round

We have 9 picks and counting.

With this fire sale, I believe these are the players that are available

Landon Collins - Possible 2nd or 3rd rounder
Jack Rabbit - 4th or 5th
Sterling Shepherd - Possible 2nd or 3rd
Engram - 2nd or 3rd

OBJ can't be traded due to the massive contract and cap hit.
Barkley is untouchable
Hernandez is untouchable

Then on the draft. Draft the top OT in the 1st round. Get your QB in the 2nd. Get a Guard, Center and DE in the next 3 picks. Then draft BAP.

I don't want Carr since he would cost a lot. We need to build the line to open holes for Barkley.

I love Eli.

But he is a big part of the problem along with the line. They are two parts of a larger whole.

He is a totally stationary pocket passer in a era where extending plays is increasingly necessary. And BECAUSE he is so gun shy BECAUSE of the line he's just not the same player anymore. At this stage you can't say he'd go back to staying straight up and moving up in the pocket if he had more time.

He threw off his back foot on the play to the right corner of the endzone to Beckham missing badly despite little pressure on that play.

The rollout to the right was also a bad read. He held the ball too long to Beckham and panicked on the throw to Simonson.

You can lay the blame for that on the bad line the last 3 seasons, but the fact is Eli is now permanently altered because of it.

There's no third act here. He's done, and has nothing to be ashamed of for it.

LivingLegend
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10/24/2018  1:41 PM
Cartman718 wrote:
anrst wrote:put Barkley in bubble wrap til 2020

that's the part i hate...we got a stud RB and dude is suffering (unlike Ezekiel in his rookie year) thanks to a QB who can't do **** anymore.

The QB isn't opening up ZERO holes for the kid either - the combo of our BRUTAL line and aging Eli is a real cluster-**** of offensive football.

Too bad Gettlemen wasn't coherent enough to stock pile picks via trade down like Colts did -- regardless of picking Saquan or a QB.
On top of that - we better hope his reach (for a now twice injured CB via the supplemental draft and forfeiting of a 3rd round pick in 2019 draft works out. I could see this kid never playing if that already repaired 2X shoulder gets 1 more good shot.

jrodmc
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10/24/2018  2:29 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:While Eli is not what he once was, he is not the problem. That OLine is horrible. I doubt any QB would be successful behind that **** show. BUT...It's to move on. I would like to see Lauleta get a chance now to see what he has.

Right now we have the following draft picks.
1st Round
2nd Round
4th Round (3 picks)
5th Round (2 Picks)
6th Round
7th Round

We have 9 picks and counting.

With this fire sale, I believe these are the players that are available

Landon Collins - Possible 2nd or 3rd rounder
Jack Rabbit - 4th or 5th
Sterling Shepherd - Possible 2nd or 3rd
Engram - 2nd or 3rd

OBJ can't be traded due to the massive contract and cap hit.
Barkley is untouchable
Hernandez is untouchable

Then on the draft. Draft the top OT in the 1st round. Get your QB in the 2nd. Get a Guard, Center and DE in the next 3 picks. Then draft BAP.

I don't want Carr since he would cost a lot. We need to build the line to open holes for Barkley.

I love Eli.

But he is a big part of the problem along with the line. They are two parts of a larger whole.

He is a totally stationary pocket passer in a era where extending plays is increasingly necessary. And BECAUSE he is so gun shy BECAUSE of the line he's just not the same player anymore. At this stage you can't say he'd go back to staying straight up and moving up in the pocket if he had more time.

He threw off his back foot on the play to the right corner of the endzone to Beckham missing badly despite little pressure on that play.

The rollout to the right was also a bad read. He held the ball too long to Beckham and panicked on the throw to Simonson.

You can lay the blame for that on the bad line the last 3 seasons, but the fact is Eli is now permanently altered because of it.

There's no third act here. He's done, and has nothing to be ashamed of for it.

Eli got sacked 4 times by the worst defensive team in the league. Several times during the game, Carl Banks was going positively brickbats because there were O lineman standing around NOT BLOCKING ANYONE.

On the goal line play, we had an O lineman STANDING IN THE FUCKING END ZONE ALL BY HIMSELF, after TOUCHING NOBODY. How the fuhuck do you manage to do that in the NFL?

Eli's time is definitely past, but if we don't get the OL fixed, Barkely's going to continue getting the living **** beat out of him every game, and it won't matter who the hell we have at QB.

Hope is a good thing. And nothing good ever dies, but it just may not make it too far in the playoffs. Or maybe it will...next year... after we trade away everything for Kawhi... and Dame... and CP3...
OT - NY Giants Teardown Underway

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