BigRedDog wrote:TripleThreat wrote:BigRedDog wrote:TripleThreat wrote:Nalod wrote:He did not trade first round picks.
He couldn't. Stepien Rule.
Dolan paid millions to a firm to research "winning" and their grand conclusion was to stop trading off your draft picks.
Dolan could have gotten that advice from Jerry West at some dive for the price of some beer and nachos.
When Jackson signed Robin Lopez, that was a calculated risk. You can see the market based reasoning why. Things like Noah, Rose, taking Calderon instead of Jae Crowder in trade, Lance Thomas, Lance Thomas, did I say Lance Thomas, were all just plain bad decisions from a risk versus reward perspective.
People keep talking about needing to take risks ( this is true) without any context ( i.e. a good risk versus reward situation from a bad one)
Knicks need to take CALCULATED RISKS.
Under this view, 95 percent of what Jackson did is indefensible.
Are you saying that Dolan prohibited Phil from trading draft picks? If so that is total BS. Phil had total authority from dolan and Dolan was hands off with Phil. Phil didn't trade 1st rnd picks because he knew that was bad for the team. stop with the made up BS.
The Stepien Rule is named after former owner Ted Stepien, who traded so many future first round picks, in total ineptitude, that the league had to stop bad owners/front offices from destroying themselves for a decade in the future. You can't trade first round picks in consecutive years.
Jackson entered the Knicks WITHOUT first round picks in 2014 and 2016.
AFTER a current NBA Draft, the league calendar resets for the Stepien Rule. Meaning Jackson could trade the 2015 pick AFTER the draft ( but trades are often ANNOUNCED ONLY before then) He could have also traded the 2017 pick AFTER the 2016 draft.
Trades of the 2015 and 2017 first round picks were not impossible, but so severely limited that they became non functional. Also to make a draft day type trade, first time/never before team runners aren't suited for this. Jackson had no real front office experience, while an in season deal can be broken down over time, ( i.e. having other people actually explain to him what can and can't be done via the CBA) , that's not going to fly on draft night.
2nd round picks are NOT subject to the Stepien Rule and Jackson traded off a ton of them. Bad sign.
It is NOT Phil Jackson's fault that he only had 1 first round pick in his first three years.
But to say he magically preserved picks that A) He didn't have in the first place and B) trade limitations made them nearly impossible to move if he wanted to do it and C) His owner paid millions to a consulting firm, where the resulting advice was made public, to the obvious, of not trading future draft picks, is really not a full context of the situation.
Neither Zinger nor Frank N were magical reaches for their draft slot. None of this was genius GM work. The Raiders drafted Amari Cooper, David Carr and Khalil Mack in short order. They also were horrible for a long time and picked high. You could argue the Carr pick was inspired. But getting Mack wasn't some type of genius. If another team took Zinger, the Knicks could have ended up with Okafor and people wouldn't be clamoring so much for Phil Jackson right now. Jackson was limited by players taken ahead of his slot, no one can control that.
Jackson ****ed this team. 60 million for about 40 months of driving this team into the ground.
Phil easily could have traded future draft picks 2018, etc. He chose not to. Phil knew how much it hurt him and the team not having 1st and picks. He did a lot of bad things but not trading future picks was the right thing to do. No one forced him too keep them. Talk about football as much as you want, it doesn't transfer to basketball. Change history as much as you want. He easily could have made trades that would have helped the knicks short term if he included future picks, the fact is he never did. The fact is this team is much better off now because he chose to keep the picks. Noah -bad, 1st and picks-good. BTW I know what the Stepien rule is, I don't need an education.
The non Knicks team would have little incentive to do it.
Current coaches and GM's are not prone to give a current asset ( think 2014) for a draft pick 3-5 years away. In that timeline, the coach and GM will likely be replaced, so they don't reap the benefit of move. Also COST CERTAINTY, one of the main values of a cost controlled draftee is not very certain. During that timeline, proposals to change the draft lottery were in order. Also rookie slotting was going to take a change at some point ( done last year) which put the value in flux.
Teams will do it that far in the future in a progressive trade. I.E. where so many picks are moving like 2014/2016/2018 that it's the only way to take in the volume. But in a progressive deal, some assets are coming in soon.
For Phil Jackson to trade the 2018 pick back in 2014, as a STARTING POINT of a deal. That's technically possible but is pragmatically unlikely with how NBA front offices actually work. Nothing in NBA modern trade history supports that something like this would be viable or likely.
More to point, sounds like you simply did not understand the Stepien Rule and are digging now to defend a point that is functionally defenseless.
"He did a lot of bad things but not trading future picks was the right thing to do. No one forced him too keep them. "
OK, let's clarify this again.
In Phil Jackson's first three years with the Knicks, he DID NOT HAVE FIRST ROUND PICKS IN 2014 AND 2016. The 2015 pick could not be traded until AFTER the 2015 Draft. Until the conclusion of the 2016 Draft, he could not trade the 2017 first round pick.
Jackson
DID NOT HAVE A FIRST ROUND PICK IN 2014
COULD NOT TRADE THE FIRST ROUND PICK UNTIL THE END OF THE 2015 DRAFT, SEVERELY LIMITING TRADE OPTIONS
DID NOT HAVE A FIRST ROUND PICK in 2016
COULD NOT EVEN BEGIN TO DISCUSS TRADING THE 2017 PICK UNTIL 2016
NO TEAM IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD TRADE FOR THE 2018 PICK BACK IN 2014, NOT FOR A CURRENT USEFUL PLAYER IN 2014
No picks stopped him
League rules stopped him
League trends stopped him
