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Great article and another sign that this management team gets it
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StarksEwing1
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10/11/2018  3:09 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:Perry looks like a genius because hes a rational choice over a geriatric egomaniac who has never run a front office before and had no real understanding of how the marketplace operates.

The Phil 'era' in one sentence. Looks like a great title/subtitle to a book: The Phil Jackson Era;How an Unqualified Owner hired a "geriatric egomaniac without a clue"

More to Triples' point, there's nothing terribly unique about what Perry's doing with Exhibit 10 deals. Like the apparently Nalod-underwhelming blogger posted, it's just a really great and nice way to spend more of widdo Jimmie's money. Plain old G league salary equals $35K; that's just a little more than a Knick City Dancer makes. (Go Triple!, Go!)

I don't think what they are doing is the norm but I would have to research it a bit more. But, at least 3 of the guys they are paying extra money to would have had to
Play for Westchestrr if they returned to the g league because the team already had their rights. Also, there seems to be steps taken to show loyalty and treat guys right. They also gave out 6 exhibit 10 contracts for a 10 man roster. I don't know what if that is the norm for other franchises.
Look im very happy with Scott Perry. I wish we had him 15 years ago when we just went into a tailspin trading numerous picks for bloated contracts. Im not sad that Phil isnt here anymore BUT I dont totally detest everything he did. He made a lot of bonehead moves obviously the Noah contract and the shrimp/smith trade tops the list. But I try be fair too. He didnt trade picks anymore and he did add good young pieces that are a big part of the future. As for the other stuff yes it was time to move on from phil and im very happy with the front office we have now
I wasn't talking about Phil. I was talking about Westchester and the exhibit 10 contracts. I don't know for sure but I don't think it is the norm for teams to
Pay extra for guys that they already control the rights for. That was what the article was about that thread is for.
One other thing, I know the Knicks have not had continuity with their g league e roster. This year they have at least 4 guys back including Hicks. It might not seem like much but that is for a ten man roster.
sorry I was referencing jrdomc's post more so I apologize for quoting your post as well. You bring up fair points about Westchester
AUTOADVERT
TripleThreat
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10/11/2018  10:30 PM
BigRedDog wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
Nalod wrote:He did not trade first round picks.


He couldn't. Stepien Rule.

Dolan paid millions to a firm to research "winning" and their grand conclusion was to stop trading off your draft picks.

Dolan could have gotten that advice from Jerry West at some dive for the price of some beer and nachos.

When Jackson signed Robin Lopez, that was a calculated risk. You can see the market based reasoning why. Things like Noah, Rose, taking Calderon instead of Jae Crowder in trade, Lance Thomas, Lance Thomas, did I say Lance Thomas, were all just plain bad decisions from a risk versus reward perspective.

People keep talking about needing to take risks ( this is true) without any context ( i.e. a good risk versus reward situation from a bad one)

Knicks need to take CALCULATED RISKS.

Under this view, 95 percent of what Jackson did is indefensible.

Are you saying that Dolan prohibited Phil from trading draft picks? If so that is total BS. Phil had total authority from dolan and Dolan was hands off with Phil. Phil didn't trade 1st rnd picks because he knew that was bad for the team. stop with the made up BS.


The Stepien Rule is named after former owner Ted Stepien, who traded so many future first round picks, in total ineptitude, that the league had to stop bad owners/front offices from destroying themselves for a decade in the future. You can't trade first round picks in consecutive years.

Jackson entered the Knicks WITHOUT first round picks in 2014 and 2016.

AFTER a current NBA Draft, the league calendar resets for the Stepien Rule. Meaning Jackson could trade the 2015 pick AFTER the draft ( but trades are often ANNOUNCED ONLY before then) He could have also traded the 2017 pick AFTER the 2016 draft.

Trades of the 2015 and 2017 first round picks were not impossible, but so severely limited that they became non functional. Also to make a draft day type trade, first time/never before team runners aren't suited for this. Jackson had no real front office experience, while an in season deal can be broken down over time, ( i.e. having other people actually explain to him what can and can't be done via the CBA) , that's not going to fly on draft night.

2nd round picks are NOT subject to the Stepien Rule and Jackson traded off a ton of them. Bad sign.

It is NOT Phil Jackson's fault that he only had 1 first round pick in his first three years.

But to say he magically preserved picks that A) He didn't have in the first place and B) trade limitations made them nearly impossible to move if he wanted to do it and C) His owner paid millions to a consulting firm, where the resulting advice was made public, to the obvious, of not trading future draft picks, is really not a full context of the situation.

Neither Zinger nor Frank N were magical reaches for their draft slot. None of this was genius GM work. The Raiders drafted Amari Cooper, David Carr and Khalil Mack in short order. They also were horrible for a long time and picked high. You could argue the Carr pick was inspired. But getting Mack wasn't some type of genius. If another team took Zinger, the Knicks could have ended up with Okafor and people wouldn't be clamoring so much for Phil Jackson right now. Jackson was limited by players taken ahead of his slot, no one can control that.

Jackson ****ed this team. 60 million for about 40 months of driving this team into the ground.

Since you came on this board you have been way off in regards to trade value. - Briggs 7/28/2015
BigRedDog
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10/12/2018  1:41 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
BigRedDog wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
Nalod wrote:He did not trade first round picks.


He couldn't. Stepien Rule.

Dolan paid millions to a firm to research "winning" and their grand conclusion was to stop trading off your draft picks.

Dolan could have gotten that advice from Jerry West at some dive for the price of some beer and nachos.

When Jackson signed Robin Lopez, that was a calculated risk. You can see the market based reasoning why. Things like Noah, Rose, taking Calderon instead of Jae Crowder in trade, Lance Thomas, Lance Thomas, did I say Lance Thomas, were all just plain bad decisions from a risk versus reward perspective.

People keep talking about needing to take risks ( this is true) without any context ( i.e. a good risk versus reward situation from a bad one)

Knicks need to take CALCULATED RISKS.

Under this view, 95 percent of what Jackson did is indefensible.

Are you saying that Dolan prohibited Phil from trading draft picks? If so that is total BS. Phil had total authority from dolan and Dolan was hands off with Phil. Phil didn't trade 1st rnd picks because he knew that was bad for the team. stop with the made up BS.


The Stepien Rule is named after former owner Ted Stepien, who traded so many future first round picks, in total ineptitude, that the league had to stop bad owners/front offices from destroying themselves for a decade in the future. You can't trade first round picks in consecutive years.

Jackson entered the Knicks WITHOUT first round picks in 2014 and 2016.

AFTER a current NBA Draft, the league calendar resets for the Stepien Rule. Meaning Jackson could trade the 2015 pick AFTER the draft ( but trades are often ANNOUNCED ONLY before then) He could have also traded the 2017 pick AFTER the 2016 draft.

Trades of the 2015 and 2017 first round picks were not impossible, but so severely limited that they became non functional. Also to make a draft day type trade, first time/never before team runners aren't suited for this. Jackson had no real front office experience, while an in season deal can be broken down over time, ( i.e. having other people actually explain to him what can and can't be done via the CBA) , that's not going to fly on draft night.

2nd round picks are NOT subject to the Stepien Rule and Jackson traded off a ton of them. Bad sign.

It is NOT Phil Jackson's fault that he only had 1 first round pick in his first three years.

But to say he magically preserved picks that A) He didn't have in the first place and B) trade limitations made them nearly impossible to move if he wanted to do it and C) His owner paid millions to a consulting firm, where the resulting advice was made public, to the obvious, of not trading future draft picks, is really not a full context of the situation.

Neither Zinger nor Frank N were magical reaches for their draft slot. None of this was genius GM work. The Raiders drafted Amari Cooper, David Carr and Khalil Mack in short order. They also were horrible for a long time and picked high. You could argue the Carr pick was inspired. But getting Mack wasn't some type of genius. If another team took Zinger, the Knicks could have ended up with Okafor and people wouldn't be clamoring so much for Phil Jackson right now. Jackson was limited by players taken ahead of his slot, no one can control that.

Jackson ****ed this team. 60 million for about 40 months of driving this team into the ground.

Phil easily could have traded future draft picks 2018, etc. He chose not to. Phil knew how much it hurt him and the team not having 1st and picks. He did a lot of bad things but not trading future picks was the right thing to do. No one forced him too keep them. Talk about football as much as you want, it doesn't transfer to basketball. Change history as much as you want. He easily could have made trades that would have helped the knicks short term if he included future picks, the fact is he never did. The fact is this team is much better off now because he chose to keep the picks. Noah -bad, 1st and picks-good. BTW I know what the Stepien rule is, I don't need an education.

Briggs-- Frank is 2 yrs away from being 2 years away
Nalod
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10/12/2018  11:16 AM
Septian....Ted. Idiot former owner of the Cav's. Spelled backwards is "Naitpes". Its latin for "Nalod". Nalod is backwards for "Dolan".
Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
Chandler
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10/12/2018  11:22 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
BigRedDog wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
Nalod wrote:He did not trade first round picks.


He couldn't. Stepien Rule.

Dolan paid millions to a firm to research "winning" and their grand conclusion was to stop trading off your draft picks.

Dolan could have gotten that advice from Jerry West at some dive for the price of some beer and nachos.

When Jackson signed Robin Lopez, that was a calculated risk. You can see the market based reasoning why. Things like Noah, Rose, taking Calderon instead of Jae Crowder in trade, Lance Thomas, Lance Thomas, did I say Lance Thomas, were all just plain bad decisions from a risk versus reward perspective.

People keep talking about needing to take risks ( this is true) without any context ( i.e. a good risk versus reward situation from a bad one)

Knicks need to take CALCULATED RISKS.

Under this view, 95 percent of what Jackson did is indefensible.

Are you saying that Dolan prohibited Phil from trading draft picks? If so that is total BS. Phil had total authority from dolan and Dolan was hands off with Phil. Phil didn't trade 1st rnd picks because he knew that was bad for the team. stop with the made up BS.


The Stepien Rule is named after former owner Ted Stepien, who traded so many future first round picks, in total ineptitude, that the league had to stop bad owners/front offices from destroying themselves for a decade in the future. You can't trade first round picks in consecutive years.

Jackson entered the Knicks WITHOUT first round picks in 2014 and 2016.

AFTER a current NBA Draft, the league calendar resets for the Stepien Rule. Meaning Jackson could trade the 2015 pick AFTER the draft ( but trades are often ANNOUNCED ONLY before then) He could have also traded the 2017 pick AFTER the 2016 draft.

Trades of the 2015 and 2017 first round picks were not impossible, but so severely limited that they became non functional. Also to make a draft day type trade, first time/never before team runners aren't suited for this. Jackson had no real front office experience, while an in season deal can be broken down over time, ( i.e. having other people actually explain to him what can and can't be done via the CBA) , that's not going to fly on draft night.

2nd round picks are NOT subject to the Stepien Rule and Jackson traded off a ton of them. Bad sign.

It is NOT Phil Jackson's fault that he only had 1 first round pick in his first three years.

But to say he magically preserved picks that A) He didn't have in the first place and B) trade limitations made them nearly impossible to move if he wanted to do it and C) His owner paid millions to a consulting firm, where the resulting advice was made public, to the obvious, of not trading future draft picks, is really not a full context of the situation.

Neither Zinger nor Frank N were magical reaches for their draft slot. None of this was genius GM work. The Raiders drafted Amari Cooper, David Carr and Khalil Mack in short order. They also were horrible for a long time and picked high. You could argue the Carr pick was inspired. But getting Mack wasn't some type of genius. If another team took Zinger, the Knicks could have ended up with Okafor and people wouldn't be clamoring so much for Phil Jackson right now. Jackson was limited by players taken ahead of his slot, no one can control that.

Jackson ****ed this team. 60 million for about 40 months of driving this team into the ground.

I think you're short-changing on both KP and Frank. A lot of teams in those positions would have passed those players because (a) neither player was uber athletic or even looked remotely ripped (b) were European (where there have been tons of busts -- not mere under-performers -- but horrific picks). In KP's case he could turn into the best pick of that draft -- time will tell -- and a generational player. IMO it's all there but he needs that great ooach to get him situated so he can consistently abuse small players, and out quick taller ones (and to use him properly on D). In Frank's case we can debate that a more genius move would have involved Donovan Mitchell but other than that it was a great pick. If he turns into a guard version of Kawhi (and it could) Phil/Clarence will deserve props.

Having said that Phil did have his blunders too, e.g., Noah, Rose. I think his biggest was he needed a GM with real talent and that he respected enough to talk him out of bad decisions (his consilgere). Unfortunately the Knicks organization as a whole seems bereft of that talent -- we've had it and then banished those guys.

Instead he had Mills, whose first move was to sign THJ back (who i like at half the price) before he even signed a GM which he knew he had to do

As a fan, my fingers are crossed for Mills/Perry bringing success to Knicks, but I'm doing this against my better judgment as both seem meh on a good day (but that's for a different thread)

DJMUSIC: Fisher talked a good game in Post game but aside from that Derek Fisher was ALL CHIT CHAT SH_t and produced nothing!
technomaster
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10/12/2018  11:26 AM
Nalod wrote:Septian....Ted. Idiot former owner of the Cav's. Spelled backwards is "Naitpes". Its latin for "Nalod". Nalod is backwards for "Dolan".

If this were Facebook, I'd use the wow emoticon. Oh wait, there it is:

Nalod. Haha!

Kevin Dolorico | "That was two, two from the heart." - John Starks
TripleThreat
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10/12/2018  5:28 PM
BigRedDog wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
BigRedDog wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
Nalod wrote:He did not trade first round picks.


He couldn't. Stepien Rule.

Dolan paid millions to a firm to research "winning" and their grand conclusion was to stop trading off your draft picks.

Dolan could have gotten that advice from Jerry West at some dive for the price of some beer and nachos.

When Jackson signed Robin Lopez, that was a calculated risk. You can see the market based reasoning why. Things like Noah, Rose, taking Calderon instead of Jae Crowder in trade, Lance Thomas, Lance Thomas, did I say Lance Thomas, were all just plain bad decisions from a risk versus reward perspective.

People keep talking about needing to take risks ( this is true) without any context ( i.e. a good risk versus reward situation from a bad one)

Knicks need to take CALCULATED RISKS.

Under this view, 95 percent of what Jackson did is indefensible.

Are you saying that Dolan prohibited Phil from trading draft picks? If so that is total BS. Phil had total authority from dolan and Dolan was hands off with Phil. Phil didn't trade 1st rnd picks because he knew that was bad for the team. stop with the made up BS.


The Stepien Rule is named after former owner Ted Stepien, who traded so many future first round picks, in total ineptitude, that the league had to stop bad owners/front offices from destroying themselves for a decade in the future. You can't trade first round picks in consecutive years.

Jackson entered the Knicks WITHOUT first round picks in 2014 and 2016.

AFTER a current NBA Draft, the league calendar resets for the Stepien Rule. Meaning Jackson could trade the 2015 pick AFTER the draft ( but trades are often ANNOUNCED ONLY before then) He could have also traded the 2017 pick AFTER the 2016 draft.

Trades of the 2015 and 2017 first round picks were not impossible, but so severely limited that they became non functional. Also to make a draft day type trade, first time/never before team runners aren't suited for this. Jackson had no real front office experience, while an in season deal can be broken down over time, ( i.e. having other people actually explain to him what can and can't be done via the CBA) , that's not going to fly on draft night.

2nd round picks are NOT subject to the Stepien Rule and Jackson traded off a ton of them. Bad sign.

It is NOT Phil Jackson's fault that he only had 1 first round pick in his first three years.

But to say he magically preserved picks that A) He didn't have in the first place and B) trade limitations made them nearly impossible to move if he wanted to do it and C) His owner paid millions to a consulting firm, where the resulting advice was made public, to the obvious, of not trading future draft picks, is really not a full context of the situation.

Neither Zinger nor Frank N were magical reaches for their draft slot. None of this was genius GM work. The Raiders drafted Amari Cooper, David Carr and Khalil Mack in short order. They also were horrible for a long time and picked high. You could argue the Carr pick was inspired. But getting Mack wasn't some type of genius. If another team took Zinger, the Knicks could have ended up with Okafor and people wouldn't be clamoring so much for Phil Jackson right now. Jackson was limited by players taken ahead of his slot, no one can control that.

Jackson ****ed this team. 60 million for about 40 months of driving this team into the ground.

Phil easily could have traded future draft picks 2018, etc. He chose not to. Phil knew how much it hurt him and the team not having 1st and picks. He did a lot of bad things but not trading future picks was the right thing to do. No one forced him too keep them. Talk about football as much as you want, it doesn't transfer to basketball. Change history as much as you want. He easily could have made trades that would have helped the knicks short term if he included future picks, the fact is he never did. The fact is this team is much better off now because he chose to keep the picks. Noah -bad, 1st and picks-good. BTW I know what the Stepien rule is, I don't need an education.


The non Knicks team would have little incentive to do it.

Current coaches and GM's are not prone to give a current asset ( think 2014) for a draft pick 3-5 years away. In that timeline, the coach and GM will likely be replaced, so they don't reap the benefit of move. Also COST CERTAINTY, one of the main values of a cost controlled draftee is not very certain. During that timeline, proposals to change the draft lottery were in order. Also rookie slotting was going to take a change at some point ( done last year) which put the value in flux.

Teams will do it that far in the future in a progressive trade. I.E. where so many picks are moving like 2014/2016/2018 that it's the only way to take in the volume. But in a progressive deal, some assets are coming in soon.

For Phil Jackson to trade the 2018 pick back in 2014, as a STARTING POINT of a deal. That's technically possible but is pragmatically unlikely with how NBA front offices actually work. Nothing in NBA modern trade history supports that something like this would be viable or likely.

More to point, sounds like you simply did not understand the Stepien Rule and are digging now to defend a point that is functionally defenseless.

"He did a lot of bad things but not trading future picks was the right thing to do. No one forced him too keep them. "

OK, let's clarify this again.

In Phil Jackson's first three years with the Knicks, he DID NOT HAVE FIRST ROUND PICKS IN 2014 AND 2016. The 2015 pick could not be traded until AFTER the 2015 Draft. Until the conclusion of the 2016 Draft, he could not trade the 2017 first round pick.

Jackson

DID NOT HAVE A FIRST ROUND PICK IN 2014
COULD NOT TRADE THE FIRST ROUND PICK UNTIL THE END OF THE 2015 DRAFT, SEVERELY LIMITING TRADE OPTIONS
DID NOT HAVE A FIRST ROUND PICK in 2016
COULD NOT EVEN BEGIN TO DISCUSS TRADING THE 2017 PICK UNTIL 2016
NO TEAM IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD TRADE FOR THE 2018 PICK BACK IN 2014, NOT FOR A CURRENT USEFUL PLAYER IN 2014

No picks stopped him
League rules stopped him
League trends stopped him

Since you came on this board you have been way off in regards to trade value. - Briggs 7/28/2015
Great article and another sign that this management team gets it

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