Welpee wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Nalod wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Fiz is right in line with how I'm thinking, this kid is more suited for sf in this system.

ya'll keep thinking I don't like him, when it's more about me not liking him as a PG.

Ntilikina won’t be starting at point guard Friday as he did Monday against the Wizards — instead, Ron Baker will be the fourth different Knick to start there in five preseason games — but Fizdale wants to see Ntilikina guard the four, potentially another way to increase his minutes.

Though the coach said he wouldn’t put the 6-foot-6 Frenchman “on a big old beast four,” he figured the Nets — with perhaps DeMarre Carroll or Rondae Hollis-Jefferson at the position — might offer a good opportunity to begin trying it.

“Brooklyn is fast-paced, they usually play four perimeters and a big guy. Why not? Let’s see it,” Fizdale said. “The fours that play in our league now … how teams are playing, they’re playing perimeter guys at that spot. Frank, that’s why I said he gives me so many options for having a ball-handler that can do multiple things and guard multiple people. So that’s where I think the flexibility comes in.”

That's what I love about this coach, he is going to find the best possible way for you to capitalize on your strength.

I just think you prolong his development "in this system" if you force point guard responsibilities on him, too much thinking and not enough reacting. The kid just spent 4 yrs learning how to play the game a different way(and you know how you absorb info as a teenager)so he's 2 yrs in the hole compared to these AAu players who come in more NBA ready.....L him defend and be a glue guy and take the open shot. I think Point fwd is a good role for him (in this fast pace system).

That's all I'm saying, it's never been about me not liking him, at least Fiz is thinking outside the box

Can a box have three sides? I thought you had that triangle taint all over Frank?

Can a "Box" have shaped like a Triangle? You had him in a PG box and for weeks he been telling everyone all things are open. You put him in a Triangle box. Rainman like because your get fixated on things.
So now a player who passes and plays different is "outside the AAU" box? That's ok too, no diva like rants, preening after dunks, and yelling at his coaches. Works for me.

The triangle was never dependent on a "PG" other than basic guard functions. The Triangle requires all 5 players to be able to read and react to the defense simultaneously. Executing faster than the defense can recover. Even if you had an expert triangle player playing PG. It wouldn't matter if the other 4 players weren't able to read and react at the same speed. So most likely Phil was looking for multiple triangle type of players. Which would be pretty much be players that can read and react who had solid all around games. Who also provided size and length. These are players that can probably play on any team in any system. Since size, length, IQ and all around games would be welcome on any team.

This is all very accurate. It slaps in the face that Frank was drafted to be a PG. Phils Triangle teams did not have traditional PG's. Fiz says the same thing. Uh oh.....Fiz is thinking out side the box according to knicks1248.
"Ability to read and react to defense simultaneously". That AAU thing must teach them to NOT do this. Otherwise you don't get a shoe deal. Etc..........
Sounds like Frank was drafted to be a good basketball player.
Remember when knick fans liked good defensive players?

Frank was drafted as a point guard. Is anyone questioning that? History doesn't have to be revised here to make Frank a good or bad pick. The fact that the guy that drafted him wanted to implement a system where the point guard's role is different from what it is in the modern nba does come into play a bit. Now that there is a new regime in place that is allowing the coach to run his own system, Frank is being looked at as a player that can be a secondary ball handler that plays a little point guard. The Knicks had Frank playing the point almost exclusively for the first two thirds of the season last year and the mantra at the time was that he needed to get more minutes to grow and improve at the position. Nothing wrong with a young player being drafted for one position and ending up in another or being used for his versatility instead of fitting just one defined role.

Find it funny that after years of guys defending Phil and the Triangle, its now a bad thing to connect players to both. Why is it so strange to some that the players picked by Phil were because he thought they were best suited for his syatem? Agree that Frank was picked as a Triangle PG. Pretty logical to think the Triangle master wouls pick guys to fit the Triangle.

Some Think its bagging on Frank because I say Phil passed on other PG's that were better suited for most NBA systems and went with the type of PG better suited for the Triangle. Problem I had was that I knew Phil and his triangle would be ahort lived. Now that Phil is gone, along with his system, we are seeing that Frank is having trouble fitting the role of PG on a non Triangle system. Now do I think he can eventually do so, I dont know. Only thing anyone knows is that he is a very good defender and very young. So now we all just have to move on and see what he turns out to be. Hopefully he turns into someone who can help us get to the next level.

The point of (my) post was to eventually connect how the triangle and position less basketball are very similar. So even if Frank was viewed as a triangle friendly player by some on the board. Those principals still work within this position less era of basketball that the NBA has been heading into. IMO triangle PG is also the wrong term. Triangle player would be more accurate. Ron Harper was a 20 pt shooting guard for the first 8 years of his career. He was able to move to PG with the Bulls under the same ideals of position less basketball. Our current coach preaches positions less basketball so its very relevant.

Fans excited about the pick saw how he fit the NBA's movement towards position less ball and the different possibilities he could potentially bring.

Would agree with most. Don't know if PG's in the NBA are position less though. The 2 to 5, definitely. But yeah, after the fact and now that Frank is a Knick, agree that he is multi positional. excellent defender, long and brings value. My point is that the Knicks desperately needed a true PG and it was a good year to pick one up. And because Phil chose the one that was better suited to be multi positional (For the Trinagle), we are still looking for one.

That's fair. We also could have had SGA this past draft but passed up that opportunity for a unique forward piece. Dallas also went after Jalen Brunson in the 2nd round after trading up for point forward Doncic because I don't think they want DSJ restricted with pure PG duties 24/7 but want to free him up to be who he is.

https://hoopshype.com/2018/10/02/dallas-mavericks-dennis-smith-luka-doncic-scouting-report-analysis/

He shot just 39.5 percent from the field on 14.8 attempts per game, and he hit only 31.3 percent of his three-pointers on 4.9 attempts per game. The 20-year-old must significantly improve his shooting as he continues developing.

Jonathan Tjarks recently spoke about why Smith could be poised for a much better sophomore season now that he’s playing next to rookie Luka Doncic, who is an incredible passer (via The Ringer):

“I’ve got a fun stat for you guys. Dennis was way better on catch-and-shoot threes than versus off-the-dribble threes last year. The problem was that he had nobody to get him open threes because nobody on the Mavs can pass.”

Last season, Smith averaged 0.66 points per possession on jump shots off the dribble. He shot 78-of-280 (27.9 percent) on these attempts, among the worst in the league among those with as many opportunities.

Meanwhile, the point guard averaged 1.05 PPP on catch-and-shoot jump shots. His field goal percentage was much better, shooting 50-of-142 (35.2 percent) during his first season in the league. And, as originally noted by Bobby Karalla, Smith was 31-for-63 (49.2 percent) when he was unguarded. He shot almost the exact same field goal percentage on this play type in college, suggesting these numbers aren’t a fluke.

I honestly wanted no part of DSJ. Yes he can score but as we have seen for 15 years we have had plenty of offensive players but not many wins. Obviously if I had a choice in that draft I would of taken donovan mitchell but between the two guards I was happy getting frankie because I saw the potential for a good two way player and maybe elite defender which are harder to come by IMO

His shooting was inefficient, his assist to turnover ratio was 1.84 which wasn't good at all, and his defense at the point of attack was shaky. He is very much a work in progress at the point guard position when it comes to the actual substance of a *point guard*.

He hasnt exactly shown himself that he can efficiently run and offense with the ball in his hands on a consistent basis his rookie year.

Are you talking about Frank or DSJ?

Frank's defense was far from shaky. But Frank was viewed as the project PG, while DSJ was viewed as the sure fire PG.

newyorknewyork wrote:

Welpee wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Nalod wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Fiz is right in line with how I'm thinking, this kid is more suited for sf in this system.

ya'll keep thinking I don't like him, when it's more about me not liking him as a PG.

Ntilikina won’t be starting at point guard Friday as he did Monday against the Wizards — instead, Ron Baker will be the fourth different Knick to start there in five preseason games — but Fizdale wants to see Ntilikina guard the four, potentially another way to increase his minutes.

Though the coach said he wouldn’t put the 6-foot-6 Frenchman “on a big old beast four,” he figured the Nets — with perhaps DeMarre Carroll or Rondae Hollis-Jefferson at the position — might offer a good opportunity to begin trying it.

“Brooklyn is fast-paced, they usually play four perimeters and a big guy. Why not? Let’s see it,” Fizdale said. “The fours that play in our league now … how teams are playing, they’re playing perimeter guys at that spot. Frank, that’s why I said he gives me so many options for having a ball-handler that can do multiple things and guard multiple people. So that’s where I think the flexibility comes in.”

That's what I love about this coach, he is going to find the best possible way for you to capitalize on your strength.

I just think you prolong his development "in this system" if you force point guard responsibilities on him, too much thinking and not enough reacting. The kid just spent 4 yrs learning how to play the game a different way(and you know how you absorb info as a teenager)so he's 2 yrs in the hole compared to these AAu players who come in more NBA ready.....L him defend and be a glue guy and take the open shot. I think Point fwd is a good role for him (in this fast pace system).

That's all I'm saying, it's never been about me not liking him, at least Fiz is thinking outside the box

Can a box have three sides? I thought you had that triangle taint all over Frank?

Can a "Box" have shaped like a Triangle? You had him in a PG box and for weeks he been telling everyone all things are open. You put him in a Triangle box. Rainman like because your get fixated on things.
So now a player who passes and plays different is "outside the AAU" box? That's ok too, no diva like rants, preening after dunks, and yelling at his coaches. Works for me.

The triangle was never dependent on a "PG" other than basic guard functions. The Triangle requires all 5 players to be able to read and react to the defense simultaneously. Executing faster than the defense can recover. Even if you had an expert triangle player playing PG. It wouldn't matter if the other 4 players weren't able to read and react at the same speed. So most likely Phil was looking for multiple triangle type of players. Which would be pretty much be players that can read and react who had solid all around games. Who also provided size and length. These are players that can probably play on any team in any system. Since size, length, IQ and all around games would be welcome on any team.

This is all very accurate. It slaps in the face that Frank was drafted to be a PG. Phils Triangle teams did not have traditional PG's. Fiz says the same thing. Uh oh.....Fiz is thinking out side the box according to knicks1248.
"Ability to read and react to defense simultaneously". That AAU thing must teach them to NOT do this. Otherwise you don't get a shoe deal. Etc..........
Sounds like Frank was drafted to be a good basketball player.
Remember when knick fans liked good defensive players?

Frank was drafted as a point guard. Is anyone questioning that? History doesn't have to be revised here to make Frank a good or bad pick. The fact that the guy that drafted him wanted to implement a system where the point guard's role is different from what it is in the modern nba does come into play a bit. Now that there is a new regime in place that is allowing the coach to run his own system, Frank is being looked at as a player that can be a secondary ball handler that plays a little point guard. The Knicks had Frank playing the point almost exclusively for the first two thirds of the season last year and the mantra at the time was that he needed to get more minutes to grow and improve at the position. Nothing wrong with a young player being drafted for one position and ending up in another or being used for his versatility instead of fitting just one defined role.

Find it funny that after years of guys defending Phil and the Triangle, its now a bad thing to connect players to both. Why is it so strange to some that the players picked by Phil were because he thought they were best suited for his syatem? Agree that Frank was picked as a Triangle PG. Pretty logical to think the Triangle master wouls pick guys to fit the Triangle.

Some Think its bagging on Frank because I say Phil passed on other PG's that were better suited for most NBA systems and went with the type of PG better suited for the Triangle. Problem I had was that I knew Phil and his triangle would be ahort lived. Now that Phil is gone, along with his system, we are seeing that Frank is having trouble fitting the role of PG on a non Triangle system. Now do I think he can eventually do so, I dont know. Only thing anyone knows is that he is a very good defender and very young. So now we all just have to move on and see what he turns out to be. Hopefully he turns into someone who can help us get to the next level.

The point of (my) post was to eventually connect how the triangle and position less basketball are very similar. So even if Frank was viewed as a triangle friendly player by some on the board. Those principals still work within this position less era of basketball that the NBA has been heading into. IMO triangle PG is also the wrong term. Triangle player would be more accurate. Ron Harper was a 20 pt shooting guard for the first 8 years of his career. He was able to move to PG with the Bulls under the same ideals of position less basketball. Our current coach preaches positions less basketball so its very relevant.

Fans excited about the pick saw how he fit the NBA's movement towards position less ball and the different possibilities he could potentially bring.

Would agree with most. Don't know if PG's in the NBA are position less though. The 2 to 5, definitely. But yeah, after the fact and now that Frank is a Knick, agree that he is multi positional. excellent defender, long and brings value. My point is that the Knicks desperately needed a true PG and it was a good year to pick one up. And because Phil chose the one that was better suited to be multi positional (For the Trinagle), we are still looking for one.

That's fair. We also could have had SGA this past draft but passed up that opportunity for a unique forward piece. Dallas also went after Jalen Brunson in the 2nd round after trading up for point forward Doncic because I don't think they want DSJ restricted with pure PG duties 24/7 but want to free him up to be who he is.

https://hoopshype.com/2018/10/02/dallas-mavericks-dennis-smith-luka-doncic-scouting-report-analysis/

He shot just 39.5 percent from the field on 14.8 attempts per game, and he hit only 31.3 percent of his three-pointers on 4.9 attempts per game. The 20-year-old must significantly improve his shooting as he continues developing.

Jonathan Tjarks recently spoke about why Smith could be poised for a much better sophomore season now that he’s playing next to rookie Luka Doncic, who is an incredible passer (via The Ringer):

“I’ve got a fun stat for you guys. Dennis was way better on catch-and-shoot threes than versus off-the-dribble threes last year. The problem was that he had nobody to get him open threes because nobody on the Mavs can pass.”

Last season, Smith averaged 0.66 points per possession on jump shots off the dribble. He shot 78-of-280 (27.9 percent) on these attempts, among the worst in the league among those with as many opportunities.

Meanwhile, the point guard averaged 1.05 PPP on catch-and-shoot jump shots. His field goal percentage was much better, shooting 50-of-142 (35.2 percent) during his first season in the league. And, as originally noted by Bobby Karalla, Smith was 31-for-63 (49.2 percent) when he was unguarded. He shot almost the exact same field goal percentage on this play type in college, suggesting these numbers aren’t a fluke.

I honestly wanted no part of DSJ. Yes he can score but as we have seen for 15 years we have had plenty of offensive players but not many wins. Obviously if I had a choice in that draft I would of taken donovan mitchell but between the two guards I was happy getting frankie because I saw the potential for a good two way player and maybe elite defender which are harder to come by IMO

His shooting was inefficient, his assist to turnover ratio was 1.84 which wasn't good at all, and his defense at the point of attack was shaky. He is very much a work in progress at the point guard position when it comes to the actual substance of a *point guard*.

He hasnt exactly shown himself that he can efficiently run and offense with the ball in his hands on a consistent basis his rookie year.

Are you talking about Frank or DSJ?

Frank's defense was far from shaky. But Frank was viewed as the project PG, while DSJ was viewed as the sure fire PG.

newyorknewyork wrote:Thought he was being sarcastic but reading it over I can see the confusion somewhat.

I was responding to Starks about Smith. He is a strong attacker. But he lacks a lot of substance. He can develop this over time. But he is also a work in progress as a PG.

It's going to be interesting to see how DSJ fares this season. Will Luka Doncic's game compliment his, will they be better than the sum of their parts or step on each other's toes? Doncic has impressed in preseason, he's going to hit the ground running and what he presently lacks in athleticism he makes for it with guile. How will DSJ react to perhaps not being the first option anymore will say a lot about his character.

newyorknewyork wrote:On a side note, Knox has struggled mightily this preseason. While Miles Bridges has been balling out. Yet there isn't much complaining about Knox or highlights put up on Miles.

I guess that's the difference when no agenda is involved.

StarksEwing1 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:On a side note, Knox has struggled mightily this preseason. While Miles Bridges has been balling out. Yet there isn't much complaining about Knox or highlights put up on Miles.

I guess that's the difference when no agenda is involved.

True. I do think many fans have come around regarding Frank. But you are right its is kinda ironic

Please explain the irony. I don't get it.

fitzfarm wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:On a side note, Knox has struggled mightily this preseason. While Miles Bridges has been balling out. Yet there isn't much complaining about Knox or highlights put up on Miles.

I guess that's the difference when no agenda is involved.

I wouldn’t put much into Knox’s preseason, I’m just glad he’s injury free to start the season. The kids going to be a star in this league. Knox’s over bridges all day every day, kid has Durant written all over him with his style of play.

Frank deserves the nod to start at PG, he’s our best defensive backcourt player and has shown he can run the offense effectively.

Disappointed in thjr’s effort on defense he really is a liability having frank and LT out there will help with the defensive degenerates in thjr and Kanter

Not a knock on Knox. I'm happy with the pick, the logic behind drafting him was very reasonable. He brings a ton of potential, size, length, skill that can pay huge dividends down the road. The length he, KP, Frank can provide will be something to see when they start playing together and forming chemistry.

Knox is on of the youngest players in the NBA and should be afforded the appropriate amount of patience to develop his game through the ups and downs. I will enjoy watching these guys develop. And I will feel satisfied watching the final product once they do. Witnessing the early struggles to progress to end result is all part of fan hood.

Juliano wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Thought he was being sarcastic but reading it over I can see the confusion somewhat.

I was responding to Starks about Smith. He is a strong attacker. But he lacks a lot of substance. He can develop this over time. But he is also a work in progress as a PG.

It's going to be interesting to see how DSJ fares this season. Will Luka Doncic's game compliment his, will they be better than the sum of their parts or step on each other's toes? Doncic has impressed in preseason, he's going to hit the ground running and what he presently lacks in athleticism he makes for it with guile. How will DSJ react to perhaps not being the first option anymore will say a lot about his character.

I would say that Doncic's game would be complemented more by Frank than it will by DSJ.

StarksEwing1 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:On a side note, Knox has struggled mightily this preseason. While Miles Bridges has been balling out. Yet there isn't much complaining about Knox or highlights put up on Miles.

I guess that's the difference when no agenda is involved.

I wouldn’t put much into Knox’s preseason, I’m just glad he’s injury free to start the season. The kids going to be a star in this league. Knox’s over bridges all day every day, kid has Durant written all over him with his style of play.

Frank deserves the nod to start at PG, he’s our best defensive backcourt player and has shown he can run the offense effectively.

Disappointed in thjr’s effort on defense he really is a liability having frank and LT out there will help with the defensive degenerates in thjr and Kanter

Not a knock on Knox. I'm happy with the pick, the logic behind drafting him was very reasonable. He brings a ton of potential, size, length, skill that can pay huge dividends down the road. The length he, KP, Frank can provide will be something to see when they start playing together and forming chemistry.

Knox is on of the youngest players in the NBA and should be afforded the appropriate amount of patience to develop his game through the ups and downs. I will enjoy watching these guys develop. And I will feel satisfied watching the final product once they do. Witnessing the early struggles to progress to end result is all part of fan hood.

I loved the pick. I would of been happy with bridges too but I love the high ceiling knox has.

Dallas will be interesting. I 100% believe Luka was the best player in the draft and will be a star in the NBA in a couple years. Time will tell how that impact Smith Jr. He could very likely be someone's version of Trey Burke in a couple years... poor defending scorers are not a hard commodity to find. Time will tell on that. Wish him will. Ice those knees.

Meanwhile, our coach has lofty goals for young Frank:
https://nypost.com/2018/10/15/david-fizdale-has-set-a-lofty-goal-for-frank-ntilikina/

According to Fizdale, Ntilikina — can be one of the league’s five best defenders.

“Frank’s going to guard everybody. You can already see where I’m going with him,” said Fizdale, who partially plans to use Ntilikina’s 7-foot wingspan on 6-foot-2 sharpshooting rookie Trae Young. “With Frank, I’m trying to develop a first-team all-defender.”

The eighth-overall pick of the 2017 draft can see it happening, too.

“I think I can guard a lot of people on the court, and it was already in my mind last year,” Ntilikina said. “I have tools, so I’m going to use them to make that team be better. I know I have tools defensively, and I can be one of the best defensive guys in the league at my position.

2nd Team
Jimmy Butler
Joel Embiid
Draymond Green
Al Horford
Dejounte Murray

Not listed:
Marcus Smart, Jalen Brown.... Frank has some competition but I love to see his coaching campaigning for him and I think this is 100% a realistic goal.

I can not wait to see him on Trey

Juliano wrote:

fishmike wrote:I can not wait to see him on Trey

You mean Trae?

knicks1248 wrote:

arkrud wrote:

Nalod wrote:Seems fans are more hung up on the pure PG thing than either Phil or Fiz.
Triangle did not necessitate it nor does Fiz at this time. Guards and Wings.

Both triangle and position-less bbal are not in need of pure PG.
Both systems are similar in relying on players versatility and ability to play and defend multiple positions.
That's why Fiz is so happy with many of Phil leftovers on the roster.

We don't really have any real ball handlers to really play position less basketball full time.

Not sure what you mean? What are your requirements to be considered a real ball handler? To me if you can protect the ball and create shots for your teammates then you are a ball handler. Charlie Ward and Chris Childs were ball handlers. I think Frank while not an And1 ball handler has capabilities similar to them.

arkrud wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

arkrud wrote:

Nalod wrote:Seems fans are more hung up on the pure PG thing than either Phil or Fiz.
Triangle did not necessitate it nor does Fiz at this time. Guards and Wings.

Both triangle and position-less bbal are not in need of pure PG.
Both systems are similar in relying on players versatility and ability to play and defend multiple positions.
That's why Fiz is so happy with many of Phil leftovers on the roster.

We don't really have any real ball handlers to really play position less basketball full time.

Not sure what you mean? What are your requirements to be considered a real ball handler? To me if you can protect the ball and create shots for your teammates then you are a ball handler. Charlie Ward and Chris Childs were ball handlers. I think Frank while not an And1 ball handler has capabilities similar to them.

Position less basketball does not required any full time players.
Rather 10 players who will log 20-25 min per game.
This is the whole point to have everyone fresh in the game and game-to-game.
And it required 3+ ball handlers on the court at all times.
No one should dominate or hold the ball.
So players like Wall, Irving, etc. are not good feet for this system.
All-around skills guard Nash/Paul alike who can play any system will be great feet.
But they are not growing on the NBA trees.

just curious - aren't they ball dominators too? i mean they're great distributors, but i remember nash dribbling an amazing amount of time. especially along the baseline and in the paint he was a magician and amazing to watch but i sure remember him dominating the hell out of the ball.