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OT: Jimmy Butler requests trade
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Jmpasq
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9/24/2018  7:11 AM
wargames wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
Nalod wrote:Read that Thibs did not want Butler traded and he is over GM Layden. now Taylor is stepping in and telling Layden to get it done.
It not unique, its DolanEsque. What is unique is the public nature of it.
Thibs is Coach and President, Layden is the GM. Taylor was right to bring back Flip Saunders and this team has talent but Thibs was not the guy you want long term.
Phil was at least correct to not bring him in. Some fans really wanted Thibs.


From what I'm hearing, much of the problem is that Towns went to Thibs and demanded Butler be traded. Him or Me. Thibs said let's work it out. Every team has problems sometimes, but you focus on winning, etc. Then apparently Towns went straight to Taylor and demanded Butler be traded. Him Or Me. Taylor talks to Thibs and Thibs says, correctly, you can't let some guy, even a franchise guy, hold a team hostage like this. Nothing good will come of it.

Taylor caved in many times to Garnett. Which is why you'd see stupid **** like Marko Jaric and Troy Hudson end up on the roster.

Thibs has made many mistakes. But he's not wrong in thinking that this is a double negative. Trading Butler in a truly non leverage position. And giving in to a player holding the team hostage.

Towns sulked all year and often dogged it. Butler got in his face. Lockerroom split. Younger guys toed the line with Towns. Older guys have more history with Butler and lined up with him. Towns apparently rubbed a lot of the refs the wrong way and this season he's going to take a beating. There are going to be a lot of non calls going against him. Towns takes the stance that this is "his team" Butler takes the stance that if it's your team, then play like a leader should.

I wouldn't say this is as bad as Jim Jackson and Jason Kidd feuding over Toni Braxton. ( Which ones of us will be the first to give you herpes?!?) But it's close in pure stupidity. Towns is just really stupid. Thibs and Butler have their issues, but their issue stem from trying to win. Towns needs some kind of external validation to function. Basically like a woman.

Karl Anthony Towns. Franchise player. Punk ass bitch. He wears many hats.

As long as this nonsense isn't happening on the Knicks..... It doesn't irk me at all.


We will see Porzingis could demand we offer an extension or he won't resign
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jrodmc
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9/24/2018  8:34 AM
smackeddog wrote:Melo trade looks even more ridiculous with every passing year- the equivalent today would be trading Mitch, Knox, Mario, Frank/trey Burke and 2 1st rounders for butler. Madness!

Yes, exactly. And don't forget, you'd get Frank/Trey "Felton" back for nothing. And Mitch would end up being "Moz" a project that ends up being one of the 10 worst contracts in the league; oh yeah, but he wins a ring sitting the bench in GS. And Knox "Rooster" ends up missing his entire rookie season and then barely plays thereafter, while also making the top 10 list for worst contracts. And Mario "the Mayor" winds up as a mid level exception and ends up playing in China or Bulgaria.

What's ridiculous is the idiocy of history and actual player careers getting ignored every time someone remembers that their panties are still in a knot over Mardy Collins and JLin.

Hope is a good thing. And nothing good ever dies, but it just may not make the playoffs.
wargames
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9/24/2018  8:52 AM    LAST EDITED: 9/24/2018  8:53 AM
jrodmc wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Melo trade looks even more ridiculous with every passing year- the equivalent today would be trading Mitch, Knox, Mario, Frank/trey Burke and 2 1st rounders for butler. Madness!

Yes, exactly. And don't forget, you'd get Frank/Trey "Felton" back for nothing. And Mitch would end up being "Moz" a project that ends up being one of the 10 worst contracts in the league; oh yeah, but he wins a ring sitting the bench in GS. And Knox "Rooster" ends up missing his entire rookie season and then barely plays thereafter, while also making the top 10 list for worst contracts. And Mario "the Mayor" winds up as a mid level exception and ends up playing in China or Bulgaria.

What's ridiculous is the idiocy of history and actual player careers getting ignored every time someone remembers that their panties are still in a knot over Mardy Collins and JLin.


I will say this I do regret trading Wilson Chandler. I think if they had kept him out of the trade and resigned him the Knicks might have been a much better team. Not Heat Beaters but maybe they do better in a few playoff series with his scoring. Even now he could still be a contributor, Philly brought him in as a vet for a reason.

Nalod
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9/24/2018  9:40 AM
jrodmc wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Melo trade looks even more ridiculous with every passing year- the equivalent today would be trading Mitch, Knox, Mario, Frank/trey Burke and 2 1st rounders for butler. Madness!

Yes, exactly. And don't forget, you'd get Frank/Trey "Felton" back for nothing. And Mitch would end up being "Moz" a project that ends up being one of the 10 worst contracts in the league; oh yeah, but he wins a ring sitting the bench in GS. And Knox "Rooster" ends up missing his entire rookie season and then barely plays thereafter, while also making the top 10 list for worst contracts. And Mario "the Mayor" winds up as a mid level exception and ends up playing in China or Bulgaria.

What's ridiculous is the idiocy of history and actual player careers getting ignored every time someone remembers that their panties are still in a knot over Mardy Collins and JLin.

Never forget!

Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
Nalod
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9/24/2018  9:52 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
Nalod wrote:Read that Thibs did not want Butler traded and he is over GM Layden. now Taylor is stepping in and telling Layden to get it done.
It not unique, its DolanEsque. What is unique is the public nature of it.
Thibs is Coach and President, Layden is the GM. Taylor was right to bring back Flip Saunders and this team has talent but Thibs was not the guy you want long term.
Phil was at least correct to not bring him in. Some fans really wanted Thibs.


From what I'm hearing, much of the problem is that Towns went to Thibs and demanded Butler be traded. Him or Me. Thibs said let's work it out. Every team has problems sometimes, but you focus on winning, etc. Then apparently Towns went straight to Taylor and demanded Butler be traded. Him Or Me. Taylor talks to Thibs and Thibs says, correctly, you can't let some guy, even a franchise guy, hold a team hostage like this. Nothing good will come of it.

Taylor caved in many times to Garnett. Which is why you'd see stupid **** like Marko Jaric and Troy Hudson end up on the roster.

Thibs has made many mistakes. But he's not wrong in thinking that this is a double negative. Trading Butler in a truly non leverage position. And giving in to a player holding the team hostage.

Towns sulked all year and often dogged it. Butler got in his face. Lockerroom split. Younger guys toed the line with Towns. Older guys have more history with Butler and lined up with him. Towns apparently rubbed a lot of the refs the wrong way and this season he's going to take a beating. There are going to be a lot of non calls going against him. Towns takes the stance that this is "his team" Butler takes the stance that if it's your team, then play like a leader should.

I wouldn't say this is as bad as Jim Jackson and Jason Kidd feuding over Toni Braxton. ( Which ones of us will be the first to give you herpes?!?) But it's close in pure stupidity. Towns is just really stupid. Thibs and Butler have their issues, but their issue stem from trying to win. Towns needs some kind of external validation to function. Basically like a woman.

Karl Anthony Towns. Franchise player. Punk ass bitch. He wears many hats.

You certainly have a way with the ladies!

Taylor has a bad history with division among his teams. Not laying blame but an active owner does put his footprint on a franchise. Good or bad. Cube is ultra loyal, Dolan could relate to guys like Vin Baker who had alcohol problems, Dr. Buss sold a solid vision, etc etc. Somewhere Marbury is in this story too.
Dolan once sided with Ewing who had already passed his prime but was still the franchise. I can't say I blame Taylor for giving Townes the keys to the car but he must now ride himself of Thibs. Layden is literally in the middle as he is GM, but not president. Used to be the GM was the man, now its the President. Thibs is President and coach. Fire him, then what?
Remember, for all the Layden haters out there it was Dolan that wanted Dice and Scott pushed back hard on trading for Marbury. That deal was on the table when he was fired and Isiah was bought in. Another Dolan trademark move.
What a nice team Minny had on paper until this summer.

Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
GustavBahler
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9/24/2018  9:59 AM    LAST EDITED: 9/24/2018  10:05 AM
Nalod wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Melo trade looks even more ridiculous with every passing year- the equivalent today would be trading Mitch, Knox, Mario, Frank/trey Burke and 2 1st rounders for butler. Madness!

Yes, exactly. And don't forget, you'd get Frank/Trey "Felton" back for nothing. And Mitch would end up being "Moz" a project that ends up being one of the 10 worst contracts in the league; oh yeah, but he wins a ring sitting the bench in GS. And Knox "Rooster" ends up missing his entire rookie season and then barely plays thereafter, while also making the top 10 list for worst contracts. And Mario "the Mayor" winds up as a mid level exception and ends up playing in China or Bulgaria.

What's ridiculous is the idiocy of history and actual player careers getting ignored every time someone remembers that their panties are still in a knot over Mardy Collins and JLin.

Never forget!

Jrod is a slut, but he's right. I can understand folks who were against the trade because they werent Melo fans. Time has shown that what we gave up for him was not worth losing sleep over.

The best player going the other way gave Derrick Rose a run for his money for missing games. Not to mention it did nothing for Denver's fortunes. If Denver really got the best of that deal we would have seen it a long time ago.

No, even though Perry made a nice save in unloading Melo's no trade deal without long term cap implications. It was Melo's second contract that was the real mistake.

Phil could done a legit rebuild, the Triangle might not have worked, but this team would have been a lot further along without Melo's (and Noah's) deal.

Regardless of the system , if the team hadnt strayed from its stated plan, I think Phil might have been able to build a good, young, playoff team. Triangle or not.

Why Im glad Perry Mills dont seem to be wavering on their plan. And Dolan is signing off on it.

Nalod
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9/24/2018  10:14 AM
GustavBahler wrote:
Nalod wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Melo trade looks even more ridiculous with every passing year- the equivalent today would be trading Mitch, Knox, Mario, Frank/trey Burke and 2 1st rounders for butler. Madness!

Yes, exactly. And don't forget, you'd get Frank/Trey "Felton" back for nothing. And Mitch would end up being "Moz" a project that ends up being one of the 10 worst contracts in the league; oh yeah, but he wins a ring sitting the bench in GS. And Knox "Rooster" ends up missing his entire rookie season and then barely plays thereafter, while also making the top 10 list for worst contracts. And Mario "the Mayor" winds up as a mid level exception and ends up playing in China or Bulgaria.

What's ridiculous is the idiocy of history and actual player careers getting ignored every time someone remembers that their panties are still in a knot over Mardy Collins and JLin.

Never forget!

Jrod is a slut, but he's right. I can understand folks who were against the trade because they werent Melo fans. Time has shown that what we gave up for him was not worth losing sleep over.

The best player going the other way gave Derrick Rose a run for his money for missing games. Not to mention it did nothing for Denver's fortunes. If Denver really got the best of that deal we would have seen it a long time ago.

No, even though Perry made a nice save in unloading Melo's no trade deal without long term cap implications. It was Melo's second contract that was the real mistake.

Phil could done a legit rebuild, the Triangle might not have worked, but this team would have been a lot further along without Melo's (and Noah's) deal.

Regardless of the system , if the team hadnt strayed from its stated plan, I think Phil might have been able to build a good, young, playoff team. Triangle or not.

Why Im glad Perry Mills dont seem to be wavering on their plan. And Dolan is signing off on it.

I always view the trade as not being right for knicks not because of who we gave up, but for what the roster looked like afterwards. Even the second contract had Melo "sacrificing" his game if it was for the greater good. Knicks were clumsy bringing him aboard because we had little assets after the purge to open the door for Lebron and instead we had Stat and Melo. Little else. Blame the owner for a starphucked vison.
Phil made some bone head moves, Melo included but he tried to have a core of Melo-Rose-Noah-KP while rebuilding underneath. All good on paper, disaster in real life. Phil could not see what he was doing.
Phil was delusional with Noah, rose and Melo.

I blame them all. Yes, Im glad Dolan is on board FINALLY after one disaster after another to take the long view and a healthy one. Mills while complicit to some degree we don't know at least has the stones to change the philosophy and Dolan signed off on it. If that's the case Mills gets my full endorsement. In truth Phil helped move the paradigm despite his blunders. Mills fully evolved it as it should be.

Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
Welpee
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9/24/2018  10:59 AM    LAST EDITED: 9/24/2018  11:00 AM
doomed wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Melo trade looks even more ridiculous with every passing year- the equivalent today would be trading Mitch, Knox, Mario, Frank/trey Burke and 2 1st rounders for butler. Madness!

Cmon that’s a stretch. The Knicks really just gave up a bunch of quantity for melo and not much quality. The picks hurt but gallo? Meh. Chandler? Meh. Mediocre talents when healthy and Gallo is never healthy.

The worst trades list made by the Knicks doesn’t have melo’s deal anywhere on it.

Exactly! That's what I don't get when people trash the Melo trade and claim we gave up so much to get him. And you're right, the picks are what ruined the deal, but even then we didn't really miss out on any franchise changing players. Dario Saric and Jamal Murray were drafted with our picks. And Zach LaVine was available when Saric was picked. All nice pieces at this point in their careers but nobody is going to build their team around these dudes.

But folks are crying over Gallo, Wilson Chandler, Felton, Mozgov? All easily replaceable players. We swung for the fences to obtain a player we thought was "that guy." Turns out he wasn't. But holding on to Gallo and Wilson Chandler would've made us elite? No.

GustavBahler
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9/24/2018  11:05 AM
Nalod wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Nalod wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Melo trade looks even more ridiculous with every passing year- the equivalent today would be trading Mitch, Knox, Mario, Frank/trey Burke and 2 1st rounders for butler. Madness!

Yes, exactly. And don't forget, you'd get Frank/Trey "Felton" back for nothing. And Mitch would end up being "Moz" a project that ends up being one of the 10 worst contracts in the league; oh yeah, but he wins a ring sitting the bench in GS. And Knox "Rooster" ends up missing his entire rookie season and then barely plays thereafter, while also making the top 10 list for worst contracts. And Mario "the Mayor" winds up as a mid level exception and ends up playing in China or Bulgaria.

What's ridiculous is the idiocy of history and actual player careers getting ignored every time someone remembers that their panties are still in a knot over Mardy Collins and JLin.

Never forget!

Jrod is a slut, but he's right. I can understand folks who were against the trade because they werent Melo fans. Time has shown that what we gave up for him was not worth losing sleep over.

The best player going the other way gave Derrick Rose a run for his money for missing games. Not to mention it did nothing for Denver's fortunes. If Denver really got the best of that deal we would have seen it a long time ago.

No, even though Perry made a nice save in unloading Melo's no trade deal without long term cap implications. It was Melo's second contract that was the real mistake.

Phil could done a legit rebuild, the Triangle might not have worked, but this team would have been a lot further along without Melo's (and Noah's) deal.

Regardless of the system , if the team hadnt strayed from its stated plan, I think Phil might have been able to build a good, young, playoff team. Triangle or not.

Why Im glad Perry Mills dont seem to be wavering on their plan. And Dolan is signing off on it.

I always view the trade as not being right for knicks not because of who we gave up, but for what the roster looked like afterwards. Even the second contract had Melo "sacrificing" his game if it was for the greater good. Knicks were clumsy bringing him aboard because we had little assets after the purge to open the door for Lebron and instead we had Stat and Melo. Little else. Blame the owner for a starphucked vison.
Phil made some bone head moves, Melo included but he tried to have a core of Melo-Rose-Noah-KP while rebuilding underneath. All good on paper, disaster in real life. Phil could not see what he was doing.
Phil was delusional with Noah, rose and Melo.

I blame them all. Yes, Im glad Dolan is on board FINALLY after one disaster after another to take the long view and a healthy one. Mills while complicit to some degree we don't know at least has the stones to change the philosophy and Dolan signed off on it. If that's the case Mills gets my full endorsement. In truth Phil helped move the paradigm despite his blunders. Mills fully evolved it as it should be.


When you trade for a top ten player (at the time) a lot is going to go the other way. The roster imbalance could have been better dealt with smarter decisions post trade. Tyson had a great start as a Knick, but he soon became "Flu Tyson".Believe you coined that moniker.

We ended up with "a big three" where two of them couldnt stay healthy, and their contracts couldnt be moved until they were close to expiring.

Believe it was the moves made after Melo was traded that made it hard to build around him. JR Smith singlehandedly killed playoff runs. Would have been better to start from scratch after Melo/Stat/Tyson turned out to be a bust.

jrodmc
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9/24/2018  12:10 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
Nalod wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Melo trade looks even more ridiculous with every passing year- the equivalent today would be trading Mitch, Knox, Mario, Frank/trey Burke and 2 1st rounders for butler. Madness!

Yes, exactly. And don't forget, you'd get Frank/Trey "Felton" back for nothing. And Mitch would end up being "Moz" a project that ends up being one of the 10 worst contracts in the league; oh yeah, but he wins a ring sitting the bench in GS. And Knox "Rooster" ends up missing his entire rookie season and then barely plays thereafter, while also making the top 10 list for worst contracts. And Mario "the Mayor" winds up as a mid level exception and ends up playing in China or Bulgaria.

What's ridiculous is the idiocy of history and actual player careers getting ignored every time someone remembers that their panties are still in a knot over Mardy Collins and JLin.

Never forget!

Jrod is a slut, but he's right. I can understand folks who were against the trade because they werent Melo fans. Time has shown that what we gave up for him was not worth losing sleep over.

The best player going the other way gave Derrick Rose a run for his money for missing games. Not to mention it did nothing for Denver's fortunes. If Denver really got the best of that deal we would have seen it a long time ago.

No, even though Perry made a nice save in unloading Melo's no trade deal without long term cap implications. It was Melo's second contract that was the real mistake.

Phil could done a legit rebuild, the Triangle might not have worked, but this team would have been a lot further along without Melo's (and Noah's) deal.

Regardless of the system , if the team hadnt strayed from its stated plan, I think Phil might have been able to build a good, young, playoff team. Triangle or not.

Why Im glad Perry Mills dont seem to be wavering on their plan. And Dolan is signing off on it.

Good to know even a slut can be right. Having a little Jameis Winston Uber meltdown, are we?

Melo's deal wasn't the real mistake. Dolan hiring what turned out to be the NBA's highest paid, highest profile useless executive was the real mistake. And I thought it was a good move at the time. "Coming Home" goes Front Office.

The only thing in recent history that could make a preening ho like Gustav beleive Phil was going to build anything that was going to be good, young or playoff has to be an example of believing in round Triangles. Phil believed in himself. He won the lottery once, and didn't trade away any first rounders. We have very little to show for it other than that as far as his "stated plan". Make the playoffs. Rookie coach. Tank. Miss the playoffs. Everybody loves Rambis. Win now. Drink the Tri-KoolAid, Mr. Hornacek. Trash everyone. Trade everyone. Fuhuck off back to Montana. That's a great stated plan.

Hope is a good thing. And nothing good ever dies, but it just may not make the playoffs.
GustavBahler
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9/24/2018  12:37 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/24/2018  12:37 PM
jrodmc wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Nalod wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Melo trade looks even more ridiculous with every passing year- the equivalent today would be trading Mitch, Knox, Mario, Frank/trey Burke and 2 1st rounders for butler. Madness!

Yes, exactly. And don't forget, you'd get Frank/Trey "Felton" back for nothing. And Mitch would end up being "Moz" a project that ends up being one of the 10 worst contracts in the league; oh yeah, but he wins a ring sitting the bench in GS. And Knox "Rooster" ends up missing his entire rookie season and then barely plays thereafter, while also making the top 10 list for worst contracts. And Mario "the Mayor" winds up as a mid level exception and ends up playing in China or Bulgaria.

What's ridiculous is the idiocy of history and actual player careers getting ignored every time someone remembers that their panties are still in a knot over Mardy Collins and JLin.

Never forget!

Jrod is a slut, but he's right. I can understand folks who were against the trade because they werent Melo fans. Time has shown that what we gave up for him was not worth losing sleep over.

The best player going the other way gave Derrick Rose a run for his money for missing games. Not to mention it did nothing for Denver's fortunes. If Denver really got the best of that deal we would have seen it a long time ago.

No, even though Perry made a nice save in unloading Melo's no trade deal without long term cap implications. It was Melo's second contract that was the real mistake.

Phil could done a legit rebuild, the Triangle might not have worked, but this team would have been a lot further along without Melo's (and Noah's) deal.

Regardless of the system , if the team hadnt strayed from its stated plan, I think Phil might have been able to build a good, young, playoff team. Triangle or not.

Why Im glad Perry Mills dont seem to be wavering on their plan. And Dolan is signing off on it.

Good to know even a slut can be right. Having a little Jameis Winston Uber meltdown, are we?

Melo's deal wasn't the real mistake. Dolan hiring what turned out to be the NBA's highest paid, highest profile useless executive was the real mistake. And I thought it was a good move at the time. "Coming Home" goes Front Office.

The only thing in recent history that could make a preening ho like Gustav beleive Phil was going to build anything that was going to be good, young or playoff has to be an example of believing in round Triangles. Phil believed in himself. He won the lottery once, and didn't trade away any first rounders. We have very little to show for it other than that as far as his "stated plan". Make the playoffs. Rookie coach. Tank. Miss the playoffs. Everybody loves Rambis. Win now. Drink the Tri-KoolAid, Mr. Hornacek. Trash everyone. Trade everyone. Fuhuck off back to Montana. That's a great stated plan.

Who is this "Ja-meis Win-ston" you speak of? We have a QB called Ryan Fitzmagic and his beard is getting its own Marvel franchise. Glad to know Eli knows the meaning of family, if only he could spell it!

Thanks for a trip to short term memory theater. Phil was on the right track before he got Rose/Noah. Lopez was a great signing. He made KP's job a lot easier. When given the opportunity, showed he could be an effective post player. To top it off, he was on a very reasonable contract. By the numbers, and by the eye test, this was one of the best frontcourts in the league, at the time, and KP was a rook. Hernangomez was a good pick, showed enough to get two second rounders which turned into even more talent.

We had the frontcourt set for the next few years, draft picks its was time to build the backcourt. All Phil had to do was be patient, wait for the right time to go after a big FA. He didnt, got playoff fever.

Even if Rambis had been head coach, and Herb Williams was his top assistant, a team built on draft picks, and not going for the quick fix would have left a lot more for the next regime to build on, after it all went caca.

Nalod
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9/24/2018  12:49 PM
jrodmc wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Nalod wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Melo trade looks even more ridiculous with every passing year- the equivalent today would be trading Mitch, Knox, Mario, Frank/trey Burke and 2 1st rounders for butler. Madness!

Yes, exactly. And don't forget, you'd get Frank/Trey "Felton" back for nothing. And Mitch would end up being "Moz" a project that ends up being one of the 10 worst contracts in the league; oh yeah, but he wins a ring sitting the bench in GS. And Knox "Rooster" ends up missing his entire rookie season and then barely plays thereafter, while also making the top 10 list for worst contracts. And Mario "the Mayor" winds up as a mid level exception and ends up playing in China or Bulgaria.

What's ridiculous is the idiocy of history and actual player careers getting ignored every time someone remembers that their panties are still in a knot over Mardy Collins and JLin.

Never forget!

Jrod is a slut, but he's right. I can understand folks who were against the trade because they werent Melo fans. Time has shown that what we gave up for him was not worth losing sleep over.

The best player going the other way gave Derrick Rose a run for his money for missing games. Not to mention it did nothing for Denver's fortunes. If Denver really got the best of that deal we would have seen it a long time ago.

No, even though Perry made a nice save in unloading Melo's no trade deal without long term cap implications. It was Melo's second contract that was the real mistake.

Phil could done a legit rebuild, the Triangle might not have worked, but this team would have been a lot further along without Melo's (and Noah's) deal.

Regardless of the system , if the team hadnt strayed from its stated plan, I think Phil might have been able to build a good, young, playoff team. Triangle or not.

Why Im glad Perry Mills dont seem to be wavering on their plan. And Dolan is signing off on it.

Good to know even a slut can be right. Having a little Jameis Winston Uber meltdown, are we?

Melo's deal wasn't the real mistake. Dolan hiring what turned out to be the NBA's highest paid, highest profile useless executive was the real mistake. And I thought it was a good move at the time. "Coming Home" goes Front Office.

The only thing in recent history that could make a preening ho like Gustav beleive Phil was going to build anything that was going to be good, young or playoff has to be an example of believing in round Triangles. Phil believed in himself. He won the lottery once, and didn't trade away any first rounders. We have very little to show for it other than that as far as his "stated plan". Make the playoffs. Rookie coach. Tank. Miss the playoffs. Everybody loves Rambis. Win now. Drink the Tri-KoolAid, Mr. Hornacek. Trash everyone. Trade everyone. Fuhuck off back to Montana. That's a great stated plan.

There was the plan, then there was the result.
As for the Moz, picks, Felton, Wilson, and Gallo its doubtful they all would have stuck and the resulting "what ifs" are impossible to reconstruct. Both Denver and Knicks had near parallel 7 seasons since the trade. Sometimes you "win-win". Rare do both teams "lose-lose".
All the people associated with the team in the Melo era are culpable to some extent. Even Melo himself. Few questioned his talent, it was his the rest of it. JR was a castoff we bought back in because we needed talent.
Smaller trades could have been effected with the pieces we moved and they could have created even more still.
But we don't think like that, we think in absolutes. Like Moz, Wilson and Gallo are always together.

Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
TripleThreat
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9/24/2018  1:19 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
Nalod wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Melo trade looks even more ridiculous with every passing year- the equivalent today would be trading Mitch, Knox, Mario, Frank/trey Burke and 2 1st rounders for butler. Madness!

Yes, exactly. And don't forget, you'd get Frank/Trey "Felton" back for nothing. And Mitch would end up being "Moz" a project that ends up being one of the 10 worst contracts in the league; oh yeah, but he wins a ring sitting the bench in GS. And Knox "Rooster" ends up missing his entire rookie season and then barely plays thereafter, while also making the top 10 list for worst contracts. And Mario "the Mayor" winds up as a mid level exception and ends up playing in China or Bulgaria.

What's ridiculous is the idiocy of history and actual player careers getting ignored every time someone remembers that their panties are still in a knot over Mardy Collins and JLin.

Never forget!

Jrod is a slut, but he's right. I can understand folks who were against the trade because they werent Melo fans. Time has shown that what we gave up for him was not worth losing sleep over.

The best player going the other way gave Derrick Rose a run for his money for missing games. Not to mention it did nothing for Denver's fortunes. If Denver really got the best of that deal we would have seen it a long time ago.

No, even though Perry made a nice save in unloading Melo's no trade deal without long term cap implications. It was Melo's second contract that was the real mistake.

Phil could done a legit rebuild, the Triangle might not have worked, but this team would have been a lot further along without Melo's (and Noah's) deal.

Regardless of the system , if the team hadnt strayed from its stated plan, I think Phil might have been able to build a good, young, playoff team. Triangle or not.

Why Im glad Perry Mills dont seem to be wavering on their plan. And Dolan is signing off on it.

The Knicks traded Jerian Grant, a 2nd and Robin Lopez for Derrick Rose, Holiday, etc

Let's say Rose work out for them. He didn't, but let's say he did. Odds of that were likely 2 out of 10.

Jerian Grant ended up NOT working out. For either team. But whether it works out or not doesn't change the equation on whether the decision was a GOOD MARKET BASED DECISION OR NOT.

Good resource management means holding to some core principles, EVEN IF IT DOESN'T WORK OUT NOW, because over time, the odds work in your favor. You make misses, you WILL MISS, but you are betting on making more relative hits in the meantime.

Rose was a poor market based decision. Whether or not Jerian Grant works out or not doesn't change the principle that you don't trade a young cost controlled guy for an injury prone guy, on a huge contract, who has off the court issues, who doesn't play D and can't shoot the three ball, who if he breaks out, will demand a max deal. Or walk and you lose him for nothing.

Even if Rose worked out, it was still a poor market based decision.

The Melo trade was a poor market based decision. The Knicks could have signed him in free agency. For cap space. Or they could have held firm on their offer for Wilson Chandler and a 1st.

This is what they teach kids for standardized tests. If you have time running out, and you are multiple choice and are not punished for wrong answers, pick the SAME LETTER on you scan tron for the rest of the test. If there are 17 questions left and you have 2 minutes to go, fill in a letter like C for all of them. Odds are, maybe 2-4 answers will be C. You get 2 to 4 out of 17. Not great, but better than 0 out of 17. If you just randomly picked any letter for 17 questions, you might hit based on luck for more than 2-4 of them. But odds are against it. Odds are, you'll miss all 17.

Picking the same letter is the same as holding to a core market based principle. Situations and dynamics might change, but you are playing the odds. You operate with OUTCOME INDEPENDENCE.

Steph Curry's rookie year was a test in outcome independence. Monta Ellis and Corey Maggette took turns freezing him out and chucking. Don Nelson went senile and battered him because he was a rookie. Curry just kept playing the right way. Even if the outcome was not getting the ball as much or getting **** on by his coach.

Was it the right market based decision?

THEN you ask - Did it work out?

THEN YOU ASK - Did the result force a chance in how you see the market?

WINNING TEAMS do this. Teams that operate with good resource management do this.

Saying the Melo/Knicks/Nuggets trade was a good one based on the results of what Denver got is an INCOMPLETE WAY OF LOOKING AT RESOURCE MANAGEMENT.

No matter what Denver got, the Knicks paid more than what the market would actually bear. THUS IT WAS A BAD DECISION. It's one thing to pay a lot TO MARKET. It's another thing to pay a little TO MARKET. But there is no good reason to OVERPAY to market.

Being OUTCOME DEPENDENT is how teams stay bad. Much of the responses come from wanting to absolve someone from blame. Accountability versus blame. Market based perspectives are about ACCOUNTABILITY in the decision making process. Non market based decisions are about BLAME in the decision making process.

It's one thing to be a loser. It's another to THINK LIKE A LOSER.

Anyone who wants to believe the Melo trade was a good one, it's your right, it's a free country. But it's how LOSING TEAMS THINK.

Since you came on this board you have been way off in regards to trade value. - Briggs 7/28/2015
GustavBahler
Posts: 34648
Alba Posts: 15
Joined: 7/12/2010
Member: #3186

9/24/2018  2:52 PM
TripleThreat wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Nalod wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Melo trade looks even more ridiculous with every passing year- the equivalent today would be trading Mitch, Knox, Mario, Frank/trey Burke and 2 1st rounders for butler. Madness!

Yes, exactly. And don't forget, you'd get Frank/Trey "Felton" back for nothing. And Mitch would end up being "Moz" a project that ends up being one of the 10 worst contracts in the league; oh yeah, but he wins a ring sitting the bench in GS. And Knox "Rooster" ends up missing his entire rookie season and then barely plays thereafter, while also making the top 10 list for worst contracts. And Mario "the Mayor" winds up as a mid level exception and ends up playing in China or Bulgaria.

What's ridiculous is the idiocy of history and actual player careers getting ignored every time someone remembers that their panties are still in a knot over Mardy Collins and JLin.

Never forget!

Jrod is a slut, but he's right. I can understand folks who were against the trade because they werent Melo fans. Time has shown that what we gave up for him was not worth losing sleep over.

The best player going the other way gave Derrick Rose a run for his money for missing games. Not to mention it did nothing for Denver's fortunes. If Denver really got the best of that deal we would have seen it a long time ago.

No, even though Perry made a nice save in unloading Melo's no trade deal without long term cap implications. It was Melo's second contract that was the real mistake.

Phil could done a legit rebuild, the Triangle might not have worked, but this team would have been a lot further along without Melo's (and Noah's) deal.

Regardless of the system , if the team hadnt strayed from its stated plan, I think Phil might have been able to build a good, young, playoff team. Triangle or not.

Why Im glad Perry Mills dont seem to be wavering on their plan. And Dolan is signing off on it.

The Knicks traded Jerian Grant, a 2nd and Robin Lopez for Derrick Rose, Holiday, etc

Let's say Rose work out for them. He didn't, but let's say he did. Odds of that were likely 2 out of 10.

Jerian Grant ended up NOT working out. For either team. But whether it works out or not doesn't change the equation on whether the decision was a GOOD MARKET BASED DECISION OR NOT.

Good resource management means holding to some core principles, EVEN IF IT DOESN'T WORK OUT NOW, because over time, the odds work in your favor. You make misses, you WILL MISS, but you are betting on making more relative hits in the meantime.

Rose was a poor market based decision. Whether or not Jerian Grant works out or not doesn't change the principle that you don't trade a young cost controlled guy for an injury prone guy, on a huge contract, who has off the court issues, who doesn't play D and can't shoot the three ball, who if he breaks out, will demand a max deal. Or walk and you lose him for nothing.

Even if Rose worked out, it was still a poor market based decision.

The Melo trade was a poor market based decision. The Knicks could have signed him in free agency. For cap space. Or they could have held firm on their offer for Wilson Chandler and a 1st.

This is what they teach kids for standardized tests. If you have time running out, and you are multiple choice and are not punished for wrong answers, pick the SAME LETTER on you scan tron for the rest of the test. If there are 17 questions left and you have 2 minutes to go, fill in a letter like C for all of them. Odds are, maybe 2-4 answers will be C. You get 2 to 4 out of 17. Not great, but better than 0 out of 17. If you just randomly picked any letter for 17 questions, you might hit based on luck for more than 2-4 of them. But odds are against it. Odds are, you'll miss all 17.

Picking the same letter is the same as holding to a core market based principle. Situations and dynamics might change, but you are playing the odds. You operate with OUTCOME INDEPENDENCE.

Steph Curry's rookie year was a test in outcome independence. Monta Ellis and Corey Maggette took turns freezing him out and chucking. Don Nelson went senile and battered him because he was a rookie. Curry just kept playing the right way. Even if the outcome was not getting the ball as much or getting **** on by his coach.

Was it the right market based decision?

THEN you ask - Did it work out?

THEN YOU ASK - Did the result force a chance in how you see the market?

WINNING TEAMS do this. Teams that operate with good resource management do this.

Saying the Melo/Knicks/Nuggets trade was a good one based on the results of what Denver got is an INCOMPLETE WAY OF LOOKING AT RESOURCE MANAGEMENT.

No matter what Denver got, the Knicks paid more than what the market would actually bear. THUS IT WAS A BAD DECISION. It's one thing to pay a lot TO MARKET. It's another thing to pay a little TO MARKET. But there is no good reason to OVERPAY to market.

Being OUTCOME DEPENDENT is how teams stay bad. Much of the responses come from wanting to absolve someone from blame. Accountability versus blame. Market based perspectives are about ACCOUNTABILITY in the decision making process. Non market based decisions are about BLAME in the decision making process.

It's one thing to be a loser. It's another to THINK LIKE A LOSER.

Anyone who wants to believe the Melo trade was a good one, it's your right, it's a free country. But it's how LOSING TEAMS THINK.


I dont see anyone here claiming we won anything in the Melo trade. It was a wash, as reflected in the record. Knicks werent able to capitalize on what Melo brought to the table. Neither were the nuggets. Nobody won.

What some of us are saying is that who we gave up for Melo (however you slice and dice it), isnt worth any regrets.

Phil had a chance to cut bait, and instead he gave Melo a near max deal, an NTC, and a trade kicker. I would put hamstringing the franchise (when Melo was pushing 30 and the injuries were starting to pile on), a more serious mistake.

StarksEwing1
Posts: 30535
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 12/28/2012
Member: #4451

9/24/2018  3:26 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Nalod wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Melo trade looks even more ridiculous with every passing year- the equivalent today would be trading Mitch, Knox, Mario, Frank/trey Burke and 2 1st rounders for butler. Madness!

Yes, exactly. And don't forget, you'd get Frank/Trey "Felton" back for nothing. And Mitch would end up being "Moz" a project that ends up being one of the 10 worst contracts in the league; oh yeah, but he wins a ring sitting the bench in GS. And Knox "Rooster" ends up missing his entire rookie season and then barely plays thereafter, while also making the top 10 list for worst contracts. And Mario "the Mayor" winds up as a mid level exception and ends up playing in China or Bulgaria.

What's ridiculous is the idiocy of history and actual player careers getting ignored every time someone remembers that their panties are still in a knot over Mardy Collins and JLin.

Never forget!

Jrod is a slut, but he's right. I can understand folks who were against the trade because they werent Melo fans. Time has shown that what we gave up for him was not worth losing sleep over.

The best player going the other way gave Derrick Rose a run for his money for missing games. Not to mention it did nothing for Denver's fortunes. If Denver really got the best of that deal we would have seen it a long time ago.

No, even though Perry made a nice save in unloading Melo's no trade deal without long term cap implications. It was Melo's second contract that was the real mistake.

Phil could done a legit rebuild, the Triangle might not have worked, but this team would have been a lot further along without Melo's (and Noah's) deal.

Regardless of the system , if the team hadnt strayed from its stated plan, I think Phil might have been able to build a good, young, playoff team. Triangle or not.

Why Im glad Perry Mills dont seem to be wavering on their plan. And Dolan is signing off on it.

The Knicks traded Jerian Grant, a 2nd and Robin Lopez for Derrick Rose, Holiday, etc

Let's say Rose work out for them. He didn't, but let's say he did. Odds of that were likely 2 out of 10.

Jerian Grant ended up NOT working out. For either team. But whether it works out or not doesn't change the equation on whether the decision was a GOOD MARKET BASED DECISION OR NOT.

Good resource management means holding to some core principles, EVEN IF IT DOESN'T WORK OUT NOW, because over time, the odds work in your favor. You make misses, you WILL MISS, but you are betting on making more relative hits in the meantime.

Rose was a poor market based decision. Whether or not Jerian Grant works out or not doesn't change the principle that you don't trade a young cost controlled guy for an injury prone guy, on a huge contract, who has off the court issues, who doesn't play D and can't shoot the three ball, who if he breaks out, will demand a max deal. Or walk and you lose him for nothing.

Even if Rose worked out, it was still a poor market based decision.

The Melo trade was a poor market based decision. The Knicks could have signed him in free agency. For cap space. Or they could have held firm on their offer for Wilson Chandler and a 1st.

This is what they teach kids for standardized tests. If you have time running out, and you are multiple choice and are not punished for wrong answers, pick the SAME LETTER on you scan tron for the rest of the test. If there are 17 questions left and you have 2 minutes to go, fill in a letter like C for all of them. Odds are, maybe 2-4 answers will be C. You get 2 to 4 out of 17. Not great, but better than 0 out of 17. If you just randomly picked any letter for 17 questions, you might hit based on luck for more than 2-4 of them. But odds are against it. Odds are, you'll miss all 17.

Picking the same letter is the same as holding to a core market based principle. Situations and dynamics might change, but you are playing the odds. You operate with OUTCOME INDEPENDENCE.

Steph Curry's rookie year was a test in outcome independence. Monta Ellis and Corey Maggette took turns freezing him out and chucking. Don Nelson went senile and battered him because he was a rookie. Curry just kept playing the right way. Even if the outcome was not getting the ball as much or getting **** on by his coach.

Was it the right market based decision?

THEN you ask - Did it work out?

THEN YOU ASK - Did the result force a chance in how you see the market?

WINNING TEAMS do this. Teams that operate with good resource management do this.

Saying the Melo/Knicks/Nuggets trade was a good one based on the results of what Denver got is an INCOMPLETE WAY OF LOOKING AT RESOURCE MANAGEMENT.

No matter what Denver got, the Knicks paid more than what the market would actually bear. THUS IT WAS A BAD DECISION. It's one thing to pay a lot TO MARKET. It's another thing to pay a little TO MARKET. But there is no good reason to OVERPAY to market.

Being OUTCOME DEPENDENT is how teams stay bad. Much of the responses come from wanting to absolve someone from blame. Accountability versus blame. Market based perspectives are about ACCOUNTABILITY in the decision making process. Non market based decisions are about BLAME in the decision making process.

It's one thing to be a loser. It's another to THINK LIKE A LOSER.

Anyone who wants to believe the Melo trade was a good one, it's your right, it's a free country. But it's how LOSING TEAMS THINK.


I dont see anyone here claiming we won anything in the Melo trade. It was a wash, as reflected in the record. Knicks werent able to capitalize on what Melo brought to the table. Neither were the nuggets. Nobody won.

What some of us are saying is that who we gave up for Melo (however you slice and dice it), isnt worth any regrets.

Phil had a chance to cut bait, and instead he gave Melo a near max deal, an NTC, and a trade kicker. I would put hamstringing the franchise (when Melo was pushing 30 and the injuries were starting to pile on), a more serious mistake.

I agree it was a wash. But in retrospect the original trade was probably a mistake. I really just wanted to continue building through the draft even after signing amare
Chandler
Posts: 22581
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/26/2015
Member: #6197

9/24/2018  5:08 PM
TripleThreat wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Nalod wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Melo trade looks even more ridiculous with every passing year- the equivalent today would be trading Mitch, Knox, Mario, Frank/trey Burke and 2 1st rounders for butler. Madness!

Yes, exactly. And don't forget, you'd get Frank/Trey "Felton" back for nothing. And Mitch would end up being "Moz" a project that ends up being one of the 10 worst contracts in the league; oh yeah, but he wins a ring sitting the bench in GS. And Knox "Rooster" ends up missing his entire rookie season and then barely plays thereafter, while also making the top 10 list for worst contracts. And Mario "the Mayor" winds up as a mid level exception and ends up playing in China or Bulgaria.

What's ridiculous is the idiocy of history and actual player careers getting ignored every time someone remembers that their panties are still in a knot over Mardy Collins and JLin.

Never forget!

Jrod is a slut, but he's right. I can understand folks who were against the trade because they werent Melo fans. Time has shown that what we gave up for him was not worth losing sleep over.

The best player going the other way gave Derrick Rose a run for his money for missing games. Not to mention it did nothing for Denver's fortunes. If Denver really got the best of that deal we would have seen it a long time ago.

No, even though Perry made a nice save in unloading Melo's no trade deal without long term cap implications. It was Melo's second contract that was the real mistake.

Phil could done a legit rebuild, the Triangle might not have worked, but this team would have been a lot further along without Melo's (and Noah's) deal.

Regardless of the system , if the team hadnt strayed from its stated plan, I think Phil might have been able to build a good, young, playoff team. Triangle or not.

Why Im glad Perry Mills dont seem to be wavering on their plan. And Dolan is signing off on it.

The Knicks traded Jerian Grant, a 2nd and Robin Lopez for Derrick Rose, Holiday, etc

Let's say Rose work out for them. He didn't, but let's say he did. Odds of that were likely 2 out of 10.

Jerian Grant ended up NOT working out. For either team. But whether it works out or not doesn't change the equation on whether the decision was a GOOD MARKET BASED DECISION OR NOT.

Good resource management means holding to some core principles, EVEN IF IT DOESN'T WORK OUT NOW, because over time, the odds work in your favor. You make misses, you WILL MISS, but you are betting on making more relative hits in the meantime.

Rose was a poor market based decision. Whether or not Jerian Grant works out or not doesn't change the principle that you don't trade a young cost controlled guy for an injury prone guy, on a huge contract, who has off the court issues, who doesn't play D and can't shoot the three ball, who if he breaks out, will demand a max deal. Or walk and you lose him for nothing.

Even if Rose worked out, it was still a poor market based decision.

The Melo trade was a poor market based decision. The Knicks could have signed him in free agency. For cap space. Or they could have held firm on their offer for Wilson Chandler and a 1st.

This is what they teach kids for standardized tests. If you have time running out, and you are multiple choice and are not punished for wrong answers, pick the SAME LETTER on you scan tron for the rest of the test. If there are 17 questions left and you have 2 minutes to go, fill in a letter like C for all of them. Odds are, maybe 2-4 answers will be C. You get 2 to 4 out of 17. Not great, but better than 0 out of 17. If you just randomly picked any letter for 17 questions, you might hit based on luck for more than 2-4 of them. But odds are against it. Odds are, you'll miss all 17.

Picking the same letter is the same as holding to a core market based principle. Situations and dynamics might change, but you are playing the odds. You operate with OUTCOME INDEPENDENCE.

Steph Curry's rookie year was a test in outcome independence. Monta Ellis and Corey Maggette took turns freezing him out and chucking. Don Nelson went senile and battered him because he was a rookie. Curry just kept playing the right way. Even if the outcome was not getting the ball as much or getting **** on by his coach.

Was it the right market based decision?

THEN you ask - Did it work out?

THEN YOU ASK - Did the result force a chance in how you see the market?

WINNING TEAMS do this. Teams that operate with good resource management do this.

Saying the Melo/Knicks/Nuggets trade was a good one based on the results of what Denver got is an INCOMPLETE WAY OF LOOKING AT RESOURCE MANAGEMENT.

No matter what Denver got, the Knicks paid more than what the market would actually bear. THUS IT WAS A BAD DECISION. It's one thing to pay a lot TO MARKET. It's another thing to pay a little TO MARKET. But there is no good reason to OVERPAY to market.

Being OUTCOME DEPENDENT is how teams stay bad. Much of the responses come from wanting to absolve someone from blame. Accountability versus blame. Market based perspectives are about ACCOUNTABILITY in the decision making process. Non market based decisions are about BLAME in the decision making process.

It's one thing to be a loser. It's another to THINK LIKE A LOSER.

Anyone who wants to believe the Melo trade was a good one, it's your right, it's a free country. But it's how LOSING TEAMS THINK.

I generally like TT's posts and don't want to be a dick but choosing randomly and choosing the same letter for the two minute drill will net the same exact results

DJMUSIC: Fisher talked a good game in Post game but aside from that Derek Fisher was ALL CHIT CHAT SH_t and produced nothing!
Welpee
Posts: 22013
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/22/2016
Member: #6239

9/24/2018  8:11 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/24/2018  8:14 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Nalod wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Melo trade looks even more ridiculous with every passing year- the equivalent today would be trading Mitch, Knox, Mario, Frank/trey Burke and 2 1st rounders for butler. Madness!

Yes, exactly. And don't forget, you'd get Frank/Trey "Felton" back for nothing. And Mitch would end up being "Moz" a project that ends up being one of the 10 worst contracts in the league; oh yeah, but he wins a ring sitting the bench in GS. And Knox "Rooster" ends up missing his entire rookie season and then barely plays thereafter, while also making the top 10 list for worst contracts. And Mario "the Mayor" winds up as a mid level exception and ends up playing in China or Bulgaria.

What's ridiculous is the idiocy of history and actual player careers getting ignored every time someone remembers that their panties are still in a knot over Mardy Collins and JLin.

Never forget!

Jrod is a slut, but he's right. I can understand folks who were against the trade because they werent Melo fans. Time has shown that what we gave up for him was not worth losing sleep over.

The best player going the other way gave Derrick Rose a run for his money for missing games. Not to mention it did nothing for Denver's fortunes. If Denver really got the best of that deal we would have seen it a long time ago.

No, even though Perry made a nice save in unloading Melo's no trade deal without long term cap implications. It was Melo's second contract that was the real mistake.

Phil could done a legit rebuild, the Triangle might not have worked, but this team would have been a lot further along without Melo's (and Noah's) deal.

Regardless of the system , if the team hadnt strayed from its stated plan, I think Phil might have been able to build a good, young, playoff team. Triangle or not.

Why Im glad Perry Mills dont seem to be wavering on their plan. And Dolan is signing off on it.

The Knicks traded Jerian Grant, a 2nd and Robin Lopez for Derrick Rose, Holiday, etc

Let's say Rose work out for them. He didn't, but let's say he did. Odds of that were likely 2 out of 10.

Jerian Grant ended up NOT working out. For either team. But whether it works out or not doesn't change the equation on whether the decision was a GOOD MARKET BASED DECISION OR NOT.

Good resource management means holding to some core principles, EVEN IF IT DOESN'T WORK OUT NOW, because over time, the odds work in your favor. You make misses, you WILL MISS, but you are betting on making more relative hits in the meantime.

Rose was a poor market based decision. Whether or not Jerian Grant works out or not doesn't change the principle that you don't trade a young cost controlled guy for an injury prone guy, on a huge contract, who has off the court issues, who doesn't play D and can't shoot the three ball, who if he breaks out, will demand a max deal. Or walk and you lose him for nothing.

Even if Rose worked out, it was still a poor market based decision.

The Melo trade was a poor market based decision. The Knicks could have signed him in free agency. For cap space. Or they could have held firm on their offer for Wilson Chandler and a 1st.

This is what they teach kids for standardized tests. If you have time running out, and you are multiple choice and are not punished for wrong answers, pick the SAME LETTER on you scan tron for the rest of the test. If there are 17 questions left and you have 2 minutes to go, fill in a letter like C for all of them. Odds are, maybe 2-4 answers will be C. You get 2 to 4 out of 17. Not great, but better than 0 out of 17. If you just randomly picked any letter for 17 questions, you might hit based on luck for more than 2-4 of them. But odds are against it. Odds are, you'll miss all 17.

Picking the same letter is the same as holding to a core market based principle. Situations and dynamics might change, but you are playing the odds. You operate with OUTCOME INDEPENDENCE.

Steph Curry's rookie year was a test in outcome independence. Monta Ellis and Corey Maggette took turns freezing him out and chucking. Don Nelson went senile and battered him because he was a rookie. Curry just kept playing the right way. Even if the outcome was not getting the ball as much or getting **** on by his coach.

Was it the right market based decision?

THEN you ask - Did it work out?

THEN YOU ASK - Did the result force a chance in how you see the market?

WINNING TEAMS do this. Teams that operate with good resource management do this.

Saying the Melo/Knicks/Nuggets trade was a good one based on the results of what Denver got is an INCOMPLETE WAY OF LOOKING AT RESOURCE MANAGEMENT.

No matter what Denver got, the Knicks paid more than what the market would actually bear. THUS IT WAS A BAD DECISION. It's one thing to pay a lot TO MARKET. It's another thing to pay a little TO MARKET. But there is no good reason to OVERPAY to market.

Being OUTCOME DEPENDENT is how teams stay bad. Much of the responses come from wanting to absolve someone from blame. Accountability versus blame. Market based perspectives are about ACCOUNTABILITY in the decision making process. Non market based decisions are about BLAME in the decision making process.

It's one thing to be a loser. It's another to THINK LIKE A LOSER.

Anyone who wants to believe the Melo trade was a good one, it's your right, it's a free country. But it's how LOSING TEAMS THINK.


I dont see anyone here claiming we won anything in the Melo trade. It was a wash, as reflected in the record. Knicks werent able to capitalize on what Melo brought to the table. Neither were the nuggets. Nobody won.

What some of us are saying is that who we gave up for Melo (however you slice and dice it), isnt worth any regrets.

Phil had a chance to cut bait, and instead he gave Melo a near max deal, an NTC, and a trade kicker. I would put hamstringing the franchise (when Melo was pushing 30 and the injuries were starting to pile on), a more serious mistake.

Agreed. The Eddy Curry trade screwed us up way more than the Melo deal. Missing out on a young Aldridge and Noah hurt us more than anyone involved in the Melo trade.
StarksEwing1
Posts: 30535
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 12/28/2012
Member: #4451

9/24/2018  8:39 PM
Nalod wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Nalod wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Melo trade looks even more ridiculous with every passing year- the equivalent today would be trading Mitch, Knox, Mario, Frank/trey Burke and 2 1st rounders for butler. Madness!

Yes, exactly. And don't forget, you'd get Frank/Trey "Felton" back for nothing. And Mitch would end up being "Moz" a project that ends up being one of the 10 worst contracts in the league; oh yeah, but he wins a ring sitting the bench in GS. And Knox "Rooster" ends up missing his entire rookie season and then barely plays thereafter, while also making the top 10 list for worst contracts. And Mario "the Mayor" winds up as a mid level exception and ends up playing in China or Bulgaria.

What's ridiculous is the idiocy of history and actual player careers getting ignored every time someone remembers that their panties are still in a knot over Mardy Collins and JLin.

Never forget!

Jrod is a slut, but he's right. I can understand folks who were against the trade because they werent Melo fans. Time has shown that what we gave up for him was not worth losing sleep over.

The best player going the other way gave Derrick Rose a run for his money for missing games. Not to mention it did nothing for Denver's fortunes. If Denver really got the best of that deal we would have seen it a long time ago.

No, even though Perry made a nice save in unloading Melo's no trade deal without long term cap implications. It was Melo's second contract that was the real mistake.

Phil could done a legit rebuild, the Triangle might not have worked, but this team would have been a lot further along without Melo's (and Noah's) deal.

Regardless of the system , if the team hadnt strayed from its stated plan, I think Phil might have been able to build a good, young, playoff team. Triangle or not.

Why Im glad Perry Mills dont seem to be wavering on their plan. And Dolan is signing off on it.

I always view the trade as not being right for knicks not because of who we gave up, but for what the roster looked like afterwards. Even the second contract had Melo "sacrificing" his game if it was for the greater good. Knicks were clumsy bringing him aboard because we had little assets after the purge to open the door for Lebron and instead we had Stat and Melo. Little else. Blame the owner for a starphucked vison.
Phil made some bone head moves, Melo included but he tried to have a core of Melo-Rose-Noah-KP while rebuilding underneath. All good on paper, disaster in real life. Phil could not see what he was doing.
Phil was delusional with Noah, rose and Melo.

I blame them all. Yes, Im glad Dolan is on board FINALLY after one disaster after another to take the long view and a healthy one. Mills while complicit to some degree we don't know at least has the stones to change the philosophy and Dolan signed off on it. If that's the case Mills gets my full endorsement. In truth Phil helped move the paradigm despite his blunders. Mills fully evolved it as it should be.

This. I never felt it was the right trade to make. I felt Dolan went over Donnie's head when it wasnt necessary. Its the same situation now but thankfully Dolan has backed off and our front office is committed to the draft and youth
Nalod
Posts: 56032
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9/24/2018  10:14 PM
Melo was going to be a net. He was not going to free agency. Be happy we didn’t end up with Deron Williams.
Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
CrushAlot
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9/24/2018  10:20 PM
StarksEwing1 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Nalod wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Melo trade looks even more ridiculous with every passing year- the equivalent today would be trading Mitch, Knox, Mario, Frank/trey Burke and 2 1st rounders for butler. Madness!

Yes, exactly. And don't forget, you'd get Frank/Trey "Felton" back for nothing. And Mitch would end up being "Moz" a project that ends up being one of the 10 worst contracts in the league; oh yeah, but he wins a ring sitting the bench in GS. And Knox "Rooster" ends up missing his entire rookie season and then barely plays thereafter, while also making the top 10 list for worst contracts. And Mario "the Mayor" winds up as a mid level exception and ends up playing in China or Bulgaria.

What's ridiculous is the idiocy of history and actual player careers getting ignored every time someone remembers that their panties are still in a knot over Mardy Collins and JLin.

Never forget!

Jrod is a slut, but he's right. I can understand folks who were against the trade because they werent Melo fans. Time has shown that what we gave up for him was not worth losing sleep over.

The best player going the other way gave Derrick Rose a run for his money for missing games. Not to mention it did nothing for Denver's fortunes. If Denver really got the best of that deal we would have seen it a long time ago.

No, even though Perry made a nice save in unloading Melo's no trade deal without long term cap implications. It was Melo's second contract that was the real mistake.

Phil could done a legit rebuild, the Triangle might not have worked, but this team would have been a lot further along without Melo's (and Noah's) deal.

Regardless of the system , if the team hadnt strayed from its stated plan, I think Phil might have been able to build a good, young, playoff team. Triangle or not.

Why Im glad Perry Mills dont seem to be wavering on their plan. And Dolan is signing off on it.

The Knicks traded Jerian Grant, a 2nd and Robin Lopez for Derrick Rose, Holiday, etc

Let's say Rose work out for them. He didn't, but let's say he did. Odds of that were likely 2 out of 10.

Jerian Grant ended up NOT working out. For either team. But whether it works out or not doesn't change the equation on whether the decision was a GOOD MARKET BASED DECISION OR NOT.

Good resource management means holding to some core principles, EVEN IF IT DOESN'T WORK OUT NOW, because over time, the odds work in your favor. You make misses, you WILL MISS, but you are betting on making more relative hits in the meantime.

Rose was a poor market based decision. Whether or not Jerian Grant works out or not doesn't change the principle that you don't trade a young cost controlled guy for an injury prone guy, on a huge contract, who has off the court issues, who doesn't play D and can't shoot the three ball, who if he breaks out, will demand a max deal. Or walk and you lose him for nothing.

Even if Rose worked out, it was still a poor market based decision.

The Melo trade was a poor market based decision. The Knicks could have signed him in free agency. For cap space. Or they could have held firm on their offer for Wilson Chandler and a 1st.

This is what they teach kids for standardized tests. If you have time running out, and you are multiple choice and are not punished for wrong answers, pick the SAME LETTER on you scan tron for the rest of the test. If there are 17 questions left and you have 2 minutes to go, fill in a letter like C for all of them. Odds are, maybe 2-4 answers will be C. You get 2 to 4 out of 17. Not great, but better than 0 out of 17. If you just randomly picked any letter for 17 questions, you might hit based on luck for more than 2-4 of them. But odds are against it. Odds are, you'll miss all 17.

Picking the same letter is the same as holding to a core market based principle. Situations and dynamics might change, but you are playing the odds. You operate with OUTCOME INDEPENDENCE.

Steph Curry's rookie year was a test in outcome independence. Monta Ellis and Corey Maggette took turns freezing him out and chucking. Don Nelson went senile and battered him because he was a rookie. Curry just kept playing the right way. Even if the outcome was not getting the ball as much or getting **** on by his coach.

Was it the right market based decision?

THEN you ask - Did it work out?

THEN YOU ASK - Did the result force a chance in how you see the market?

WINNING TEAMS do this. Teams that operate with good resource management do this.

Saying the Melo/Knicks/Nuggets trade was a good one based on the results of what Denver got is an INCOMPLETE WAY OF LOOKING AT RESOURCE MANAGEMENT.

No matter what Denver got, the Knicks paid more than what the market would actually bear. THUS IT WAS A BAD DECISION. It's one thing to pay a lot TO MARKET. It's another thing to pay a little TO MARKET. But there is no good reason to OVERPAY to market.

Being OUTCOME DEPENDENT is how teams stay bad. Much of the responses come from wanting to absolve someone from blame. Accountability versus blame. Market based perspectives are about ACCOUNTABILITY in the decision making process. Non market based decisions are about BLAME in the decision making process.

It's one thing to be a loser. It's another to THINK LIKE A LOSER.

Anyone who wants to believe the Melo trade was a good one, it's your right, it's a free country. But it's how LOSING TEAMS THINK.


I dont see anyone here claiming we won anything in the Melo trade. It was a wash, as reflected in the record. Knicks werent able to capitalize on what Melo brought to the table. Neither were the nuggets. Nobody won.

What some of us are saying is that who we gave up for Melo (however you slice and dice it), isnt worth any regrets.

Phil had a chance to cut bait, and instead he gave Melo a near max deal, an NTC, and a trade kicker. I would put hamstringing the franchise (when Melo was pushing 30 and the injuries were starting to pile on), a more serious mistake.

I agree it was a wash. But in retrospect the original trade was probably a mistake. I really just wanted to continue building through the draft even after signing amare

They weren't interested in building through the draft. Walsh was very frustrating to live through as a fan. Letting everyone know your goal is to shed salaries handicaps you in any trade negotiations. Sending out your lottery pick and a first round pick to dump Jeffries deal is not something a gm does that is building through the draft.
You playTrey Burke... Wally Szcerbiak
OT: Jimmy Butler requests trade

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