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Knicks need to focus on development, not Kyrie Irving
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NBK
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9/14/2018  1:32 PM
I'm pretty much tired of hearing about Kyrie. I want the Knicks to be focused on the players we have, not a player that may or may not be here in the future. I would love to have Kyrie on this team, but at the moment, I just want to focus on developing our players. We had a nice debate on for the first 45 minutes of my show about the Knicks focusing on youth development instead of trying to impress Kyrie.

I believe if we play the right way, develop our players and have strong leadership, multiple free agents will want to play in NY. I do not want 2010 all over again!

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arkrud
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9/14/2018  3:59 PM
If it is Kyrie as FA it is more like Stat once again not Melo.
If it is trade it is more like Steph.
And Kyrie is different player and personality.
Also Fiz is not Isiah.
I doubt they will trade for Irving.
They will reach for group of max FA not only Kyrie.
If he will be the only one wanting to come to NY there is nothing wrong in signing him.
In fact we will have no choice.
If we get some other max FA interested a lot will depend on what we will find out about the pull of talent we have this season.
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TripleThreat
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9/14/2018  7:39 PM
NBK wrote:I'm pretty much tired of hearing about Kyrie. I want the Knicks to be focused on the players we have, not a player that may or may not be here in the future. I would love to have Kyrie on this team, but at the moment, I just want to focus on developing our players. We had a nice debate on for the first 45 minutes of my show about the Knicks focusing on youth development instead of trying to impress Kyrie.

I believe if we play the right way, develop our players and have strong leadership, multiple free agents will want to play in NY. I do not want 2010 all over again!


Player development and coaching is vastly overrated in the NBA.

You can win, for the most part, on pure raw talent if it's overwhelming.

Players have the skill set and athleticism to be elite. Or they do not. Often this is determined very quickly. Coaching someone up works in cases like Rick Carlisle ( rebooting Vince Carter and Farouq Aminu, guys who have/had the talent but were *******s) or Erik Spolestra ( getting fringe guys to play to their strengths to be mid rotation guys)

Tyronne Lue is an idiot. Nice guy. Hard worker. But an idiot. He has a ring.

Guys like Kenny Atkinson does well because he understands how to translate the NBA lifestyle in a functional way to his players. The Nets fly around with the players and their families. It's understated how tension with the wife and kids and the mistresses and thots can wear down on players.

A lot of development comes from

A) Physical maturity. Guys need to grow into their bodies.

B) Understanding the NBA grind/attrition of a long season

C) Building a rapport with the refs and establishing a reputation in their ranks

D) Seeing enough NBA opposition to better understand tendencies/more intensive film work

This is much more organic process than some kind of specific strategy/homebrew tactics.

MLB is more about development, the game is just so much more complex.

Free agents will come if the Knicks offer the best pathway to max money/max years/best chance to contend.

Since the Knicks can't offer that now, the players who will sign will do so because of max years/max AAV compared to other offers. That's about it.

Since you came on this board you have been way off in regards to trade value. - Briggs 7/28/2015
jskinny35
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9/14/2018  9:07 PM
I agree about focusing on our youth and really don't feel strongly about adding Kyrie, unless it's for less then the max. Agree we need more talent, but not sure he will hold up physically in year 3 or 4 of a max contract.
doomed
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9/15/2018  1:17 PM
Can’t the Knicks do both?
Jmpasq
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9/15/2018  8:19 PM
If Kyrie want to play here we pay him. If you can get All NBA talent for just cap space you have to do it. If Porzingis is healthy and Knox is as good as I think he will be the Knicks could compete in the East. Add another high lottery talent to the mix as well this will be a damn good team
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Marv
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9/15/2018  10:32 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/15/2018  10:33 PM
Jmpasq wrote:If Kyrie want to play here we pay him. If you can get All NBA talent for just cap space you have to do it. If Porzingis is healthy and Knox is as good as I think he will be the Knicks could compete in the East. Add another high lottery talent to the mix as well this will be a damn good team

i’m really mixed on kyrie but in the end i think you’re right.

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TripleThreat
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9/16/2018  3:21 AM
NBK wrote:We had a nice debate on for the first 45 minutes of my show about the Knicks focusing on youth development instead of trying to impress Kyrie.


Knicks need to stockpile talent/assets. Development comes a pale 5th or 6th behind that.

It's not very often a player is "coached up" to be leaps and bounds better than he's showed thus far ( barring injury and barring no real playing time) Jeremy Lin did get great coaching from Eric Musselman and Kenny Atkinson, but if you look at Lin's Sports Science breakdown, the raw talent and physical pedigree was there. He just didn't get the opportunity to show what he could do.

The NBA is such that a single player can impact EVERY SINGLE PLAY of every game for the entire season. Roger Clemens was a monster for the Yankees, but he only could pitch every five days. When Bernie Williams got hot as hell, he could only bat 4-5 times a game. Curtis Martin could only carry the rock so many times for the Jets, at some point, the defense and the passing game had to do their end too.

It's not like baseball where a Corey Kluber or our own Jacob DeGrom came from literally nowhere. Or even a Mike Trout.

In the NBA, you've got about three years, again assuming nothing glitchy with playing time and injuries, to hit your potential ceiling. Much of the development happens outside of coaching. Rookies don't get calls, that's a tough start. Rookies also don't have heavy film study on the rest of the league yet. Tatum and Curry had nice starts in part because they were immersed in the NBA training culture long before their rookie seasons.

Stockpile talent. Stockpile assets. That's about it.

Good coaching is important, but meaningless without enough talent. From a resource management standpoint, teams need to be able to resign their own rookie with his implied Bird Rights, trade for another veteran star and sign one in free agency. Teams need that much flexibility plus assets to build a team around those three. If you want to contend.

Someone feel free to name a player who was dramatically coached up based solely on the coaching involved far past their projectable baseline. Dan Warthen teaching Met's pitchers that nasty slider, that's development. But in the NBA? Not so much.

Since you came on this board you have been way off in regards to trade value. - Briggs 7/28/2015
TheGame
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9/16/2018  7:10 AM    LAST EDITED: 9/16/2018  7:12 AM
I am reminded of the year we signed Stat. We had David Lee, who was coming off a solid season and who we could have resigned for about $7-$8 million per year less than Stat. But we let Lee go and signed Stat, who only really produced one decent season. Now we are looking to sign Kyrie Irving, another injury prone superstar, when we have Burke and Frank at the pg spot. If Burke shows that the numbers from last year were not a fluke, I would rather the team resign him for $10-$12 million per year over paying Kyrie $27 million per year. We can then go after my favorite targets, which are Klay Thompson or Kevin Durant, who I think will help us more than Kyrie.
Playoffs or bust
StarksEwing1
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9/16/2018  5:13 PM
Most know im a believer of building through the draft. However if we have a chance to get Really good talent that want to come here then you do it. Better than trading numerous picks like we used to
jskinny35
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9/16/2018  11:27 PM
I really think we may regret Kyrie at the max (if he signs). I do think there are a few players worth the max, but not injury-riddled players over the age of 26 that rely on athleticism and quickness. Players without injuries eventually wear down, but we know Kyrie has had several injuries so he is not a good candidate/risk - just like Amare. I loved him as a Knick and he was great when healthy - but the Suns looked at his injuries/knees and considered the long term. We were so desperate for a name/star we took the risk that other franchises laughed at. Just because we have sucked the past 18 years and most free agents haven't been interested in coming here doesn't mean that we should be lucky and overpay. In the end it either works or it doesn't. I get that someone will pay him max money - but why can't we spend the max on someone without known injury problems? If they don't exist it doesn't mean you overpay for someone lesser/not worth the max...
EthanHarris
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9/17/2018  2:11 AM
doomed wrote:Can’t the Knicks do both?

I Agree!
Kyrie is one of the best players in the NBA. I really love the way he plays.
Getting Irving on the team will help a lot, and we can continue developing our players..

meloshouldgo
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9/17/2018  6:34 AM
How can Boston play better without him if he is one of the best players in the NBA? He is a one way player and injury prone, STAT is a great comparison. If it's Klay or KD you go for it. The Kyries of the world you pass.
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BigDaddyG
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9/17/2018  11:44 AM
meloshouldgo wrote:How can Boston play better without him if he is one of the best players in the NBA? He is a one way player and injury prone, STAT is a great comparison. If it's Klay or KD you go for it. The Kyries of the world you pass.

I'm undecided on signing Kyrie's to the max, but I think I'm leaning more to signing him. It's not fair or true to say the Celtics played better without him. The Celts marched off to one of the best records in the league after the Gordon injury. That was fueled by Kyrie. Yeah, they enjoyed playoff success, but they also sputtered at the tail end of the regular season without Kyrie. You can make the case that Kyrie would have taken them to the NBA finals if he were healthy. Kyrie proved he is one of the best players in the NBA. Now, the injury history is scary. Some of it is fluky. But stuff like the knee...it seems like it has the potential to be chronic. That may already be the case. Our front office needs to take a long hard look at this. I'd be worried if they already had their minds made up.

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Uptown
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9/17/2018  6:49 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:How can Boston play better without him if he is one of the best players in the NBA? He is a one way player and injury prone, STAT is a great comparison. If it's Klay or KD you go for it. The Kyries of the world you pass.

If Kyrie is healthy, they advance to the finals last year...Celts were exposed in game 7! Stat is not a good comparison to Kyrie. Stat was damaged goods and we outbid ourselves for his services. Kyrie, is also an NBA champion, and could have easily been the finals MVP! Stat never sniffed the finals...

GustavBahler
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9/17/2018  8:09 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/17/2018  8:14 PM
Uptown wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:How can Boston play better without him if he is one of the best players in the NBA? He is a one way player and injury prone, STAT is a great comparison. If it's Klay or KD you go for it. The Kyries of the world you pass.

If Kyrie is healthy, they advance to the finals last year...Celts were exposed in game 7! Stat is not a good comparison to Kyrie. Stat was damaged goods and we outbid ourselves for his services. Kyrie, is also an NBA champion, and could have easily been the finals MVP! Stat never sniffed the finals...

I wouldnt call Irving fresh off the showroom floor either, not after all those surgeries. Dont believe anyone here doubts what Irving can do, has done. Its about the tail end of a max contract. Might not be history repeating itself if we gave another player with mutliple knee surgeries the max, but it could rhyme. The final years of Amare's, Melo's, Curry's deals were not productive. They were expensive. I hope Perry/Mills think long and hard about giving the max to an athlete with all those surgeries.

It would have been better IMO if we signed Kyrie before he got a ring. Would rather find a healthier, and hungrier player. Celtics give him a better chance right now. Yet he still might walk.

Nalod
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9/17/2018  8:11 PM
Focus is not on Irving. That is unless its the fans focus. Im just going to enjoy whats in front of us this season and hope for the best.
That KP returns nice. don't have to tear it up right away.
Knox don't have to be ROY, but some good glimpses to the potential.
MitRob don't have to be Elvin Hayes/Connie Hawkins/Stat out of the gate. but if he is, then so much the better.
He has not played much so I don't expect much so fast.
I hope Frank is a revelation so I can rub Knicks1248 nose in it.
All this and we for some reason just think Timmy is a "bad contract" when the fact is he might have the best season of anyone.
Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
TripleThreat
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9/18/2018  1:26 AM
jskinny35 wrote:I really think we may regret Kyrie at the max (if he signs). I do think there are a few players worth the max, but not injury-riddled players over the age of 26 that rely on athleticism and quickness. Players without injuries eventually wear down, but we know Kyrie has had several injuries so he is not a good candidate/risk - just like Amare. I loved him as a Knick and he was great when healthy - but the Suns looked at his injuries/knees and considered the long term. We were so desperate for a name/star we took the risk that other franchises laughed at. Just because we have sucked the past 18 years and most free agents haven't been interested in coming here doesn't mean that we should be lucky and overpay. In the end it either works or it doesn't. I get that someone will pay him max money - but why can't we spend the max on someone without known injury problems? If they don't exist it doesn't mean you overpay for someone lesser/not worth the max...

Objectively, you are making a lot of good points, rational points. No argument here.

The complication is what goals does the franchise have? I know this will sound like poison to some here, but not every sports franchise is looking to be a contender. Many are happy to put out a team that wins most of the time, makes the playoffs, entertains fan, puts a good product on the floor and keeps generating revenue.

Your perspective is correct is the goal is to build a true contender.

Your perspective has some push/pull if the goal is to just have a solid playoff team you know won't win a ring, but will have stability and playoff appearances.

If Kyrie Irving is a Knick for four years, assuming most of his health is there, they are making the playoffs in those four years. Are they winning a ring? No. But then again, as long as the Warriors have their core, no one is winning a ring anyway.

If Irving wants to come here for just open cap space, I'd say do it. But my perspective is the Knicks won't be a contender anyway within the Zinger career timeline so just getting a fun/stable team on the floor is a good compromise. But the bigger problem is if Irving was to be willing to come here for just open cap space, it means something is very wrong with him. If he can get equal money and equal years from a team who could contend or even have a better pathway to that end, why would he pick the Knicks instead? Unless their offer was the max AAV and length, which means something is very wrong with him in that situation.

Isaiah Thomas 2 is a "treadmill player" Good enough to get you into the playoffs, not good enough to carry you to be a contender. Celtics took him in and it worked out for them anyway. Signing Irving doesn't mean he stays a Knick for those 4 years. You take the talent and figure out the rest later. Irving is a future HOFer and an All Star, I'd say his talent base is enough where he falls under "take the talent, worry about the rest later"

You are right though, there is a lot to worry about.

Since you came on this board you have been way off in regards to trade value. - Briggs 7/28/2015
Marv
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9/18/2018  7:49 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
jskinny35 wrote:I really think we may regret Kyrie at the max (if he signs). I do think there are a few players worth the max, but not injury-riddled players over the age of 26 that rely on athleticism and quickness. Players without injuries eventually wear down, but we know Kyrie has had several injuries so he is not a good candidate/risk - just like Amare. I loved him as a Knick and he was great when healthy - but the Suns looked at his injuries/knees and considered the long term. We were so desperate for a name/star we took the risk that other franchises laughed at. Just because we have sucked the past 18 years and most free agents haven't been interested in coming here doesn't mean that we should be lucky and overpay. In the end it either works or it doesn't. I get that someone will pay him max money - but why can't we spend the max on someone without known injury problems? If they don't exist it doesn't mean you overpay for someone lesser/not worth the max...

Objectively, you are making a lot of good points, rational points. No argument here.

The complication is what goals does the franchise have? I know this will sound like poison to some here, but not every sports franchise is looking to be a contender. Many are happy to put out a team that wins most of the time, makes the playoffs, entertains fan, puts a good product on the floor and keeps generating revenue.

Your perspective is correct is the goal is to build a true contender.

Your perspective has some push/pull if the goal is to just have a solid playoff team you know won't win a ring, but will have stability and playoff appearances.

If Kyrie Irving is a Knick for four years, assuming most of his health is there, they are making the playoffs in those four years. Are they winning a ring? No. But then again, as long as the Warriors have their core, no one is winning a ring anyway.

If Irving wants to come here for just open cap space, I'd say do it. But my perspective is the Knicks won't be a contender anyway within the Zinger career timeline so just getting a fun/stable team on the floor is a good compromise. But the bigger problem is if Irving was to be willing to come here for just open cap space, it means something is very wrong with him. If he can get equal money and equal years from a team who could contend or even have a better pathway to that end, why would he pick the Knicks instead? Unless their offer was the max AAV and length, which means something is very wrong with him in that situation.

Isaiah Thomas 2 is a "treadmill player" Good enough to get you into the playoffs, not good enough to carry you to be a contender. Celtics took him in and it worked out for them anyway. Signing Irving doesn't mean he stays a Knick for those 4 years. You take the talent and figure out the rest later. Irving is a future HOFer and an All Star, I'd say his talent base is enough where he falls under "take the talent, worry about the rest later"

You are right though, there is a lot to worry about.

u just summed up all my ambiguities.

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blkexec
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9/18/2018  10:17 AM
meloshouldgo wrote:How can Boston play better without him if he is one of the best players in the NBA? He is a one way player and injury prone, STAT is a great comparison. If it's Klay or KD you go for it. The Kyries of the world you pass.

The best thing Kyrie can do for us and increase ticket sales.

Theres a reason why Boston looked and played better without him.

The ball sticks in Kyrie's hand....He's Melo at the PG position.

Kyrie is the best 1 on 1 player in the NBA. But is he the best team player?

I never liked Kyrie's game at the NBA level. But for And 1 or street ball, he's the king.

Q: What is the difference between a Knicks fan and a baby? A: The baby will stop whining after awhile.
Knicks need to focus on development, not Kyrie Irving

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