He's gonna hurt us on D, how bad we will see but his role on offense is going to be pivotal and I think he could legit help us to a good start and winning some games. I suspect Burke ends up being a stop gap player for us.

blkexec wrote:

fishmike wrote:Burke should play a big role. There's a few things he can do really well which we desperately need. 1) He takes perfect care of the ball. While he can sometimes overdribble he never turns the ball over. Like ever. 2) he can get into the lane at will and create shots. We have bigs who can score and finish. Burke should be able to create some open looks.

He's gonna hurt us on D, how bad we will see but his role on offense is going to be pivotal and I think he could legit help us to a good start and winning some games. I suspect Burke ends up being a stop gap player for us.

Pairing Burk with Frank will off-set his lack of defense.

I'm not sure why ppl continue to think burke is more suited for a 6th man roll when he's more valuable as a starter, unless kyrie is here.

Some of you forget that JH did such a piss poor job with his rotation bringing in burke for strictly the 4th quarter in a slew of games in march, and normally it was because we were down and needed his scoring.

knicks1248 wrote:I think Fiz is going to have a tremendous impact on his improvement.

As a Knicks fan, like all Knicks fans here, I want it to work out.

Stepping back, as a general basketball fan, I doubt it.

It's NOT just Burke alone on defense. The combination of Burke and Kanter from their Utah days spells real trouble. The Knicks will get slaughtered night after night against even the most mediocre pick and roll from other teams.

He got stronger ( fresh legs, PEDS testing cycling was different since he missed most of the NBA season) and did a good job at mid range. He put in real effort. I'll give him that.

But he's a zero on defense, he calls his own number way too much on offense, he's not a high IQ player and he has real athleticism limitations. He also has not proven he can bang it from three point range at an above average rate and from plus range, which is pretty much required since his other limitations are so glaring. He was available for a reason. He finally subverted his previous playing style ( playing like he was more talented than he really was against NBA grade competition) because he was desperate to stay in the league.

Anyone can get volume counting stats if they get enough looks. Or call their own number enough. The Knicks last year were gutted with attrition and injury, also general lack of talent.

He's gotta start hitting three balls as PLUS RANGE. And do it at an elite rate. He and Kanter need to provide enough scoring to offset how many points they are going to give up. Sadly, they are going to give up a ton of points.

The idea that Frank N can cover up for Burke's defensive woes is laughable and bizarre. That's some chuck first AAU inspired voodoo magic if I've ever heard it. You can shade a mediocre defender a little, but Burke is a true zero out there. It's why he was available in the first place. Teams could no longer hide Ray Allen, and that dude is/was a historic level gunner. He was also a high IQ player.

Look at how Courtney Lee plays and look how Burke plays, ACROSS THEIR ENTIRE CAREERS and you see a massive difference in how a player plays within his realistic skill set or not.

knicks1248 wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I think Fiz is going to have a tremendous impact on his improvement.

As a Knicks fan, like all Knicks fans here, I want it to work out.

Stepping back, as a general basketball fan, I doubt it.

It's NOT just Burke alone on defense. The combination of Burke and Kanter from their Utah days spells real trouble. The Knicks will get slaughtered night after night against even the most mediocre pick and roll from other teams.

He got stronger ( fresh legs, PEDS testing cycling was different since he missed most of the NBA season) and did a good job at mid range. He put in real effort. I'll give him that.

But he's a zero on defense, he calls his own number way too much on offense, he's not a high IQ player and he has real athleticism limitations. He also has not proven he can bang it from three point range at an above average rate and from plus range, which is pretty much required since his other limitations are so glaring. He was available for a reason. He finally subverted his previous playing style ( playing like he was more talented than he really was against NBA grade competition) because he was desperate to stay in the league.

Anyone can get volume counting stats if they get enough looks. Or call their own number enough. The Knicks last year were gutted with attrition and injury, also general lack of talent.

He's gotta start hitting three balls as PLUS RANGE. And do it at an elite rate. He and Kanter need to provide enough scoring to offset how many points they are going to give up. Sadly, they are going to give up a ton of points.

The idea that Frank N can cover up for Burke's defensive woes is laughable and bizarre. That's some chuck first AAU inspired voodoo magic if I've ever heard it. You can shade a mediocre defender a little, but Burke is a true zero out there. It's why he was available in the first place. Teams could no longer hide Ray Allen, and that dude is/was a historic level gunner. He was also a high IQ player.

Look at how Courtney Lee plays and look how Burke plays, ACROSS THEIR ENTIRE CAREERS and you see a massive difference in how a player plays within his realistic skill set or not.

lol @he calls his own number....Find me a guard in today's NBA game that doesn't call his own #, you should find him out of the rotation.

lee, lance, KOQ, and frank combine to take less than 13 shot attempts combine, your not winning a lot of games scoring a 104 points (which is what we avg)

You think Kyrie or kemba is going to shoot less than Burke?

You pivot to that? Kyrie and Kemba are allstars.
Burke is a journeyman.

knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I think Fiz is going to have a tremendous impact on his improvement.

As a Knicks fan, like all Knicks fans here, I want it to work out.

Stepping back, as a general basketball fan, I doubt it.

It's NOT just Burke alone on defense. The combination of Burke and Kanter from their Utah days spells real trouble. The Knicks will get slaughtered night after night against even the most mediocre pick and roll from other teams.

He got stronger ( fresh legs, PEDS testing cycling was different since he missed most of the NBA season) and did a good job at mid range. He put in real effort. I'll give him that.

But he's a zero on defense, he calls his own number way too much on offense, he's not a high IQ player and he has real athleticism limitations. He also has not proven he can bang it from three point range at an above average rate and from plus range, which is pretty much required since his other limitations are so glaring. He was available for a reason. He finally subverted his previous playing style ( playing like he was more talented than he really was against NBA grade competition) because he was desperate to stay in the league.

Anyone can get volume counting stats if they get enough looks. Or call their own number enough. The Knicks last year were gutted with attrition and injury, also general lack of talent.

He's gotta start hitting three balls as PLUS RANGE. And do it at an elite rate. He and Kanter need to provide enough scoring to offset how many points they are going to give up. Sadly, they are going to give up a ton of points.

The idea that Frank N can cover up for Burke's defensive woes is laughable and bizarre. That's some chuck first AAU inspired voodoo magic if I've ever heard it. You can shade a mediocre defender a little, but Burke is a true zero out there. It's why he was available in the first place. Teams could no longer hide Ray Allen, and that dude is/was a historic level gunner. He was also a high IQ player.

Look at how Courtney Lee plays and look how Burke plays, ACROSS THEIR ENTIRE CAREERS and you see a massive difference in how a player plays within his realistic skill set or not.

lol @he calls his own number....Find me a guard in today's NBA game that doesn't call his own #, you should find him out of the rotation.

lee, lance, KOQ, and frank combine to take less than 13 shot attempts combine, your not winning a lot of games scoring a 104 points (which is what we avg)

You think Kyrie or kemba is going to shoot less than Burke?

You pivot to that? Kyrie and Kemba are allstars.
Burke is a journeyman.

You make less and less sense the more you post.

so because he's been on 2 other teams, he should play more passive and pass the ball to players that will only pass it back to him to shoot because that's what they do..hahahah.

how many coaches have begged Lee, frank, and lance to shoot more, how many wide open shots those guys have passed up.

Also his coach (JH)gave him the green light, not to mention he was drafted as a scoring guard, just like frank was drafted as a defensive guard, every one has their role.

Yes, every has a role. Yours is to keep your head down and count the cracks in the sidewalk.
You equated Burke to Kyrie and Kemba. Your words.
I never said Burke should be more passive. Real world here: Your boy Beas and Burke both got green light to shoot because the team was awful. Empty calories.
Question is Burke really the future? Im not going to say no, but he will get a chance to play for a new coach but have to play in his system also.

You make less and less sense the more you post.

Trust me, if I start to make sense to you then I know I am NOT valid.

TripleThreat wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:lol @he calls his own number....Find me a guard in today's NBA game that doesn't call his own #, you should find him out of the rotation.

lee, lance, KOQ, and frank combine to take less than 13 shot attempts combine, your not winning a lot of games scoring a 104 points (which is what we avg)

You think Kyrie or kemba is going to shoot less than Burke?

A player can call his own number.

But if he's actually doing his job, he's doing it

A) In consideration of what the defense is giving him

B) In consideration of all the matchups on the floor, not just his own

C) In the entire context of running a free flowing offense for the greater good of winning

D) Within the context of actual "game flow", i.e. without disrupting basic fundamental basketball

Chris Paul will sometimes take a lot of shots. Sometimes he will take very few shots. Sometimes he focuses on getting a specific player going. Sometimes he just rides the hot hand around him. What Chris Paul does not do is play one way all the time because he can't play any other way.

Burke looks for his own shot first and foremost and always. He doesn't play any other way. He's never played any other way. He hasn't show he can play any other way.

HIS JOB IS TO RUN THE ENTIRE OFFENSE, not just his own offense.

The guys who do call their own number all the time and can get away with it are guys who can

1) Consistently create their own shot

2) Can do so even with defenses focused and gameplanning specifically to stop them

3) Shows that they can do it night after night, against all types of teams, looks, situations and defensive sets

Because the Knicks don't have a ton of talent on the roster doesn't mean you give up basic fundamental basketball.

Burke can hit the long range two. But his rate of conversion last season is likely something he can't sustain. He needs to drop the three ball at an elite rate and at plus range. He has to run the offense, not just be a chucker.

HIS JOB IS TO RUN THE ENTIRE OFFENSE. NOT TO BE A CHUCKER. If he can prove all year long he can run the Knicks offense for the betterment of the entire team/roster, then there's something to be said for shading for his own looks more often. But he hasn't. He had a few nice games at the end of last year. That buys him another chance on the roster. It does not buy him a green light to ignore his actual job as a point guard.

he's got flaws, you broke them down well. but when he got expanded minutes in the last 10 games of the season he delivered 18 pts and 8 assists per game. it isn't exactly that he stopped getting others involved in the offense.

Marv wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:lol @he calls his own number....Find me a guard in today's NBA game that doesn't call his own #, you should find him out of the rotation.

lee, lance, KOQ, and frank combine to take less than 13 shot attempts combine, your not winning a lot of games scoring a 104 points (which is what we avg)

You think Kyrie or kemba is going to shoot less than Burke?

A player can call his own number.

But if he's actually doing his job, he's doing it

A) In consideration of what the defense is giving him

B) In consideration of all the matchups on the floor, not just his own

C) In the entire context of running a free flowing offense for the greater good of winning

D) Within the context of actual "game flow", i.e. without disrupting basic fundamental basketball

Chris Paul will sometimes take a lot of shots. Sometimes he will take very few shots. Sometimes he focuses on getting a specific player going. Sometimes he just rides the hot hand around him. What Chris Paul does not do is play one way all the time because he can't play any other way.

Burke looks for his own shot first and foremost and always. He doesn't play any other way. He's never played any other way. He hasn't show he can play any other way.

HIS JOB IS TO RUN THE ENTIRE OFFENSE, not just his own offense.

The guys who do call their own number all the time and can get away with it are guys who can

1) Consistently create their own shot

2) Can do so even with defenses focused and gameplanning specifically to stop them

3) Shows that they can do it night after night, against all types of teams, looks, situations and defensive sets

Because the Knicks don't have a ton of talent on the roster doesn't mean you give up basic fundamental basketball.

Burke can hit the long range two. But his rate of conversion last season is likely something he can't sustain. He needs to drop the three ball at an elite rate and at plus range. He has to run the offense, not just be a chucker.

HIS JOB IS TO RUN THE ENTIRE OFFENSE. NOT TO BE A CHUCKER. If he can prove all year long he can run the Knicks offense for the betterment of the entire team/roster, then there's something to be said for shading for his own looks more often. But he hasn't. He had a few nice games at the end of last year. That buys him another chance on the roster. It does not buy him a green light to ignore his actual job as a point guard.

trey burke is costing us $1.8M. i'd say that's perfect for a sparkplug who could ignite the offense at times when we really need it.

he's got flaws, you broke them down well. but when he got expanded minutes in the last 10 games of the season he delivered 18 pts and 8 assists per game. it isn't exactly that he stopped getting others involved in the offense.

I want Burke attacking if he is going to convert on his shots.

And who was he supposed to pass it to last year? Who were the lethal offensive players that we had on our squad. My memory has gone blank?

I like Burke. If he can continue, there is no reason he can't be an Isiaih Thomas 2.0 lite.

We're not winning anything this year, though I think we may surprise.

I'd like to see development from the young nucleus, and I think Burke can be part of the longer term solution.

TripleThreat wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:How can you even judge a player when his role was never identify

One night he's a starter, the next night he doesn't even play, the next night he comes off the bench, the next night he plays just the 4th qtr. It was like that for damn near the entire roster and quite frankly, both fisher and JH butchered the rotation to death, and that's putting it mildly

No professional player will be consistent if his minutes and role isn't.

You have to make the most of the opportunities given to you.

Burke had plenty of chances in Utah to establish himself. He got to start, he got minutes.

Justin Turner is the starting third baseman for the Dodgers. Before that, some people forget he was with the Mets. He was a bench guy, when he got a chance, he hit. He made positive things happen. Play in a way where they can't take you out of the lineup.

The crux of what you are trying to say is it's not fair. No, it's not fair. Who said it had to be fair?

You play, you produce. You don't produce, you don't play. This was covered when Hard Knocks covered the Jets. A 4th string long shot QB got cut in camp. He said, I was expected to make chicken salad out of chicken **** ( complaining his skill guys were not NFL quality) The guy cutting him told him, that's your job. Make chicken salad out of chicken **** if that's what it comes down to on the field.

Can he help this team? Yes. Then again Don Nelson running out Byron Houston to body slam dudes for six hard fouls is considered helping his team. Will Burke help them in the way some people here are talking or hope? Probably not.

I'm not talking about what he did in UTAH and DC, any player in sports will tell you, with erratic minutes, comes erratic play. The most important thing with any winning team is identifying a players role.

when you look at the roster that won 54 games, every single players role was identified from the start of the season, it's the reason Melo was 3rd in MVP votes, and JR was the 6th man of the yr, novak was lights out, and felton and Kidd played pretty consistent (until the playoffs).

When THJ came back from his injury and they had him on a minute restriction, he played awful, and part of that was the role they had him in, and the up and down minutes he got.

Right now burkes the starter, he's better than MUdiay and Frank by far, and I will put any amount of money that he will be in line for "Most improve player" of the yr

Burke MAY have just unlocked that same type of scoring potential. I'd like to see the Knicks give Burke a shot. The article basically said he was out of this world good as he finished off last season... why not continue his run - with production like that, he definitely wasn't hurting the team.