Welpee wrote:

ThePunisher wrote:Remember Ricky Mahorn? Pistons, fresh off a championship, sacrificed him in the expansion draft and went on to self-combust.

I hope we "self-combust" like they did since they won a championship the next season after he got picked up in the expansion draft.

I could do without the snarky tone. That said, you're correct and that was a misnomer on my end. Was quick-editing that post and completely forgot which year he was let go.

THAT SAID: I am partially right...ex-Pistons have mentioned that moment as the beginning of the end, coupled with injuries. He was a big part of their identity. Mahorn was the soul of that squad.

Read this:

https://www.detroitathletic.com/blog/2017/11/10/day-pistons-lost-rick-mahorn-expansion-championship-parade/

So after choosing to give up Mahorn, McCloskey immediately tried to prevent it from happening. Stauth says he arranged a three-team deal where Orlando would take Micheal Williams from the Pistons, then trade him to the Pacers and swap draft picks with them. But that would only work if Minnesota passed on Mahorn. And Minnesota’s coach, Bill Musselman, wanted Mahorn more than anyone.

“To have Rick have to go through that on that day, to have us have to go through that on that day–that was awful,” Thomas told the documentary.

The following week, the Pistons visited the White House for a more subdued celebration. A somber Thomas took the podium and noted that this was the team’s last appearance with Mahorn.

“This was the Bad Boys,” Thomas said. “There can only be one Bad Boy basketball team. This was it, and there can never be another one.”

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/redrock_bball/status/1029076121604812800

CrushAlot wrote:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/redrock_bball/status/1029076121604812800

I hope he has a victor olapido type season

MARIO

After essentially losing his first two seasons in a haze of knee issues and maturity problems, Hezonja finally took meaningful strides this season after being moved to the power forward position out of sheer necessity once the Magic’s injury list began to pile up. After playing almost exclusively as a 2-3 his entire career, Hezonja played the four for almost 60% of his minutes last season (per Basketball Reference). The change suddenly made him look like the plus athlete scouts once drooled over as his struggles to create off the dribble against perimeter players became a thing of the past when facing the slower-footed forwards. There was even an 11-game stretch in February where Hezonja averaged 15.5 points, 5.0 rebounds, 2.2 steals and 1.5 assists and looked like the Magic’s best player. In the end, he posted career highs in everything from points, assists, and rebounds to VORP, PER, and BPM. This left Orlando’s new management kicking themselves for their short-sighted decision to decline his 4th-year team-option the previous summer despite being strapped for young talent.

In Vonleh, it’s yet another flier, but the ceiling is far higher than his four-teams-in-five-years career would suggest. After being traded to Chicago at the deadline in a purely cost-cutting move, Bulls’ coach Fred Hoiberg decided to experiment and play Vonleh on the perimeter for the first time in his young career. The move worked wonders as the agile Vonleh thrived beating bigs off the catch and shooting threes at more than double the rate he had in any season prior. While the efficiency was spotty at times, Vonleh posted career highs across his per 36 numbers and in every catch-all advanced stat (PER, BPM, VORP, etc). Ultimately, the Bulls were 4.6 points better with him on the court and at times had to trim his minutes during their season-ending tank-fest.

The odds of Vonleh reaching his pre-draft potential are slim to none at this point, but there’s a decent possibility his past season was the beginning of a reinvention from which the Knicks will get to reap the benefits. If things break right, Vonleh could be a serviceable floor-spacing depth forward to pair next to Porzingis in shooting-heavy lineups.

As exciting as those numbers are for either player, let’s be clear: the Knicks aren’t getting a star with either of these signings. But that’s fine. The second draft isn’t about finding a forgotten star, it’s about developing solid bench depth for a fraction of the market cost.

To see the model for utilizing the second draft, look no further than the Portland Trailblazers. Looking down their rotation in recent years, some of their best ancillary contributors (Mo Harkless, Shabazz Napier, etc) have been rescue projects they picked up for spare parts. With multiple stars eating away at their cap space, general manager Neil Olshey usually has no choice but to take chances on bargain bin prospects to round out the roster. This season is no exception as the Blazers enter the season depending on unproven draft “busts”, Wade Baldwin and Nik Stauskas, to right the ship and provide their backcourt depth.

And yet, as I mentioned before, the success rate for second draft contracts is never very high. For every Napier or Harkless, there’s a few Papagiannis’ and (at least in his Blazer tenure) Vonleh’s. That’s why Knick fans shouldn’t be worried about the positional redundancy of Vonleh and Hezonja, or Burke and Mudiay. Let the cream rise to the top. If even two of them become contributors to future Knick teams with legitimate playoff aspirations, then this whole process is a win. Kudos to the New York front office for embracing the second draft, don’t be surprised if other teams begin to follow their lead.

we shall see, hoping for the best

TripleThreat wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:He is 23 yrs old and won't be 24 until Feb. He will probably start and will get every opportunity to put up numbers. At the deadline if things play out and Butler is telling Minny he doesn't want to resign and wants to go to NY. Hardaway and a 23 yr old Mario possibly putting up 15-16pts 4-5rebs at 46% making 6.5mil will hold value in a deal for Butler. Minny can sell themselves on getting 26 & 23 yr old wings who are putting up 15-17pts with short term contracts. Tim would have 2 yrs left on his deal after the season with a PO. Minny looking to maintain playoff appearances may value ready made contributors in their prime more so than future assets if they are to lose Butler.

Minnesota never makes this trade.

Right now, THJr has net negative trade value.

IF, and it's a huge IF, the Timberwolves wanted to trade Butler to the Knicks ( would fail the Mirror Test on every level), then they'd ask for Kanter (expiring) and draft assets. They'd only take Hardaway Jr IF they were dumping Gorgui Dieng and the trade reflected Dieng is worth more than THJr.

Why would Minnesota want THJr? If they could get Kanter, he expires, freeing up money for them. Any draft pick they get from the Knicks, likely a lottery pick, would help them more than THJr and at cost control to boot.

The rental trade price of Butler, Minnesota could do a lot better than THJr and Hezonja's expiring.

Mirror Test this - Would you take THJr and an expiring of a guy who muddled around the league in Hezonja for Jimmy Butler? Even if all you could get in rental price was an expiring and a 1st round pick, that's still better than 2 and half years of THJr's ****ty contract.

The entire point of any team trading for Butler is to get his Bird Rights, so they can go over the cap to sign him to an extension and build a team around him and others. The Bird Rights makes his trade cost worth more than Hezonja and THJr by a long shot.

Tim Hardaway Jr has net negative trade value. The same reason so many of you are desperate to dump him is the same reason no other non Knicks team will want him. I'm pretty sure the OP is the same guy who said the GSW should trade Klay Thompson for THJr and a 2nd.

Real story - I still know some guys in MLB. In one MLB front office, an exec apparently screamed into a phone and slammed it down. What did he yell out? After getting a truly ****ty trade offer, he shouted out, "Do you want me to blow you after you **** me?" People forget these are real people too, with human emotions and failings and conflicts. They can scream at each other one day and be best friends the next day.

Steve Mills - Hey dude, do you want THJr and Hezonja for Butler?
Thibs - "Do you want me to blow you after you **** me?"

It's kind of a trick question. Because post coitus, a man on a physiological level has what is called a "refractory" period. This is the point where he loses all power of speech, curls into a fetal position to sleep and only wants the thot to go make him a sandwich. So really, Mills would pass out before Thibs could actually blow him.

I know what you are thinking. This entire conversation sounds totally ****ed up. It sounds like someone ****ting in your ear. Which is exactly what it would sound like to Thibs, getting THJr's ****astic contract offered for Butler.

There's The Mirror Test.

Then there's the "Do You Want Me To Blow You After You Fuck Me" Test.

Which one do you think applies here?

I didn't offer a real trade package. I stated if things play out and we are at the deadline, which would mean there are 28 games left on the season. And Butler is telling Minny that he won't resign and that he wants to be traded to NY. Mario if playing well could hold value to Minny in a deal. I believe Hardaway jr would also be a piece that they would be interested in given Minny's circumstance. If not Knicks can just build depth.

TripleThreat wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:He is 23 yrs old and won't be 24 until Feb. He will probably start and will get every opportunity to put up numbers. At the deadline if things play out and Butler is telling Minny he doesn't want to resign and wants to go to NY. Hardaway and a 23 yr old Mario possibly putting up 15-16pts 4-5rebs at 46% making 6.5mil will hold value in a deal for Butler. Minny can sell themselves on getting 26 & 23 yr old wings who are putting up 15-17pts with short term contracts. Tim would have 2 yrs left on his deal after the season with a PO. Minny looking to maintain playoff appearances may value ready made contributors in their prime more so than future assets if they are to lose Butler.

I didn't offer a real trade package. I stated if things play out and we are at the deadline, which would mean there are 28 games left on the season. And Butler is telling Minny that he won't resign and that he wants to be traded to NY. Mario if playing well could hold value to Minny in a deal. I believe Hardaway jr would also be a piece that they would be interested in given Minny's circumstance. If not Knicks can just build depth.

If you were Thibs, and let's ignore the issue that a rental trade from any of the other 28 teams would still be a superior package to either Kanter/draft assets or THJr/Hezonja, and you had a gun to your head, and you had NO CHOICE but to trade Jimmy Butler to the Knicks, would you take

A) THJr and Hezonja

or

B) Kanter ( expiring) and either young player(s) and/or draft assets

???????

What you are saying is you want Thibs and the TWolves to lock into a ****ty deal, then lock in again to the ****tiest deal possible within said ****ty deal.

You already called THJr's contract an "awful contract"

You are asking Minnesota to operate to their detriment TWICE within the framework of the same trade scenario. TWICE. ( First time to forego the value of any rental trade, i.e. that there are 28 other teams in the league. Second time to take the worst trade offer possible, take a ****ty 2 and a half years of a ****ty contract over an expiring contract)

The functional problem remains the same. These core players want to team up, to do this, you need Bird Rights to go over the cap to sign these guys to somewhat of a market based contract. Telling Jimmy Butler he can walk as a street free agent without his Bird Rights is actually quite a bit of leverage. The value of the Bird Rights makes any rental trade package to be much more enticing.

THJr is a ****ty contract. You can't have it both ways, it can't be ****ty enough where you can't wait to dump it, but not ****ty enough where other teams will be open to being absolutely trade raped solely for the Knicks benefit.

WTF is a "real trade package" You discussed the core moving parts in your scenario. How can anything done to it make it pass The Mirror Test for the TWolves?

Mills - Listen Thibby, I want to talk to you about THJr and Hezonja for Butler, but it's not a "real trade package" It's sort of a phantom sort of super super secret type of trade package. It has no basis in reality by the way.

Thibs - Then why did you call in the first place?

Why did you call in the first place?

WHY DID YOU POST THE TRADE SCENARIO IN THE FIRST PLACE IF YOU DID NOT WANT PEOPLE TO DISCUSS IT?

Actually, in your current breakdown, Mills ****s Thibs TWICE. So there's no real energy or time left for Thibs to blow him.

The TWolves would likely rather take nothing for Butler and let him walk than take 2 and half years of THJrs ****ty contract. At least they'd have the cap space. It's like asking a woman if she'd rather marry no one and die alone with 50 cats or marry a mentally ill homeless dude with HIV and bad breath.

You seem to be working under the theory that a homeless guy could get cleaned up enough to look good in a tux.

newyorknewyork wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:He is 23 yrs old and won't be 24 until Feb. He will probably start and will get every opportunity to put up numbers. At the deadline if things play out and Butler is telling Minny he doesn't want to resign and wants to go to NY. Hardaway and a 23 yr old Mario possibly putting up 15-16pts 4-5rebs at 46% making 6.5mil will hold value in a deal for Butler. Minny can sell themselves on getting 26 & 23 yr old wings who are putting up 15-17pts with short term contracts. Tim would have 2 yrs left on his deal after the season with a PO. Minny looking to maintain playoff appearances may value ready made contributors in their prime more so than future assets if they are to lose Butler.

I didn't offer a real trade package. I stated if things play out and we are at the deadline, which would mean there are 28 games left on the season. And Butler is telling Minny that he won't resign and that he wants to be traded to NY. Mario if playing well could hold value to Minny in a deal. I believe Hardaway jr would also be a piece that they would be interested in given Minny's circumstance. If not Knicks can just build depth.

If you were Thibs, and let's ignore the issue that a rental trade from any of the other 28 teams would still be a superior package to either Kanter/draft assets or THJr/Hezonja, and you had a gun to your head, and you had NO CHOICE but to trade Jimmy Butler to the Knicks, would you take

A) THJr and Hezonja

or

B) Kanter ( expiring) and either young player(s) and/or draft assets

???????

What you are saying is you want Thibs and the TWolves to lock into a ****ty deal, then lock in again to the ****tiest deal possible within said ****ty deal.

You already called THJr's contract an "awful contract"

You are asking Minnesota to operate to their detriment TWICE within the framework of the same trade scenario. TWICE. ( First time to forego the value of any rental trade, i.e. that there are 28 other teams in the league. Second time to take the worst trade offer possible, take a ****ty 2 and a half years of a ****ty contract over an expiring contract)

The functional problem remains the same. These core players want to team up, to do this, you need Bird Rights to go over the cap to sign these guys to somewhat of a market based contract. Telling Jimmy Butler he can walk as a street free agent without his Bird Rights is actually quite a bit of leverage. The value of the Bird Rights makes any rental trade package to be much more enticing.

THJr is a ****ty contract. You can't have it both ways, it can't be ****ty enough where you can't wait to dump it, but not ****ty enough where other teams will be open to being absolutely trade raped solely for the Knicks benefit.

WTF is a "real trade package" You discussed the core moving parts in your scenario. How can anything done to it make it pass The Mirror Test for the TWolves?

Mills - Listen Thibby, I want to talk to you about THJr and Hezonja for Butler, but it's not a "real trade package" It's sort of a phantom sort of super super secret type of trade package. It has no basis in reality by the way.

Thibs - Then why did you call in the first place?

Why did you call in the first place?

WHY DID YOU POST THE TRADE SCENARIO IN THE FIRST PLACE IF YOU DID NOT WANT PEOPLE TO DISCUSS IT?

Actually, in your current breakdown, Mills ****s Thibs TWICE. So there's no real energy or time left for Thibs to blow him.

The TWolves would likely rather take nothing for Butler and let him walk than take 2 and half years of THJrs ****ty contract. At least they'd have the cap space. It's like asking a woman if she'd rather marry no one and die alone with 50 cats or marry a mentally ill homeless dude with HIV and bad breath.

You seem to be working under the theory that a homeless guy could get cleaned up enough to look good in a tux.

Pacers traded Paul George for Oladipo and Sabonis. At a time when Dipo was 25 averaging 15-16pts and set to make 21 mil per season over the next few years and viewed as a big underachiever. Sabonis averaged 5.9 pts 3.6 rebs on 39% shooting his rookie yr when he was moved. Odd are that if I presented that deal to you before it was made. You would have said the same things you are saying now. Odds are that you would have viewed Dipo as an unmovable player and no way would he be able to land Paul George.

Pacers though wanted the security of the long term contract of a proven young player in his prime. Because they don't view themselves as players for high end FAs. I believe Minny would be of similar thought process. With Teague, Thjr, Wiggins, Gibson, Towns, Herzonia isn't a bad alternative given their circumstance and may give Thibbs the security that he has enough talent to keep Wolves in the playoffs. They would have to do A LOT more heavy lifting if Butler were to walk.

I didn't say not to discuss a deal. Herzonia and Thjr was the base, I don't know what filler would be necessary though. I don't believe THjr is the ****ty contract you make him out to be. I don't know how Thibbs views Thjr as I can't speak for him as you do. If I felt Thjr was the ****ty contract you do then I wouldn't add him in deals. You don't see me mention Noah in deals. I would have no problem sticking with Thjr and Herzonia if we weren't able to pull off a deal.

People talk about the Mirror test. I would not trade THjr & Hezonja for Butler!

I won't no part of a washed up, past their prime looking for a max pay out player.

If we somehow end up with Kyrie next summer, and KP looks strong and Knox looks like he could be something, maybe then I might be open to adding Butler.

We looked pretty good at times with KP and THjr healthy together. They got banged up/tired, and the wheels feel off.

wargames wrote:If he plays well keep him. If the Knicks are really on KP's timeline we don't need to trade for Butler. Just gonafter Kyrie in FA

i agree with you on butler. we'd be getting him at 30. not a good expenditure imo.

edit: just noticed you said trade for butler. that's totally off the table in my view. i don't want to sign him as a fa either.