Uptown wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Uptown wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Was saying the cutoff was the end of Frank's second season. If he's still essentially the same player on offense. Its likely if there is a real change in his game, its going to take all 4 years. If it happens at all.

Weird to have that opinion when just a few posts up is Gary Payton, describing how at 22 it took him 2 years before he figured out his offensive game and how pathetic it was during his first 2.

How does GP's development relate to franks? they're back rounds are nothing a like

They're both lottery picks who came into the league with games centered around defense. They also had to develop their offensive games. GP said he had to learn how to use his body to take advantage of smaller points. He also said he had to develop the confidence to become more agressive. Isn't that the same Brickley said he's working on with Frank?

Gary Payton averaged 25 pts per senior year in college....He had more of an offensive background than Frank did when he was drafted.

Frank avg. was like 20 something in the Final U18 euro tournament. You know how that's similar to GP's average in college? Both stats weren't accumulated in the NBA. GP's avg in his rookie year was similar to Frank's. And GP was like 3 years older. GP says it in the interview. He was afraid to drive and he couldn't shoot in his first few years in the NBA.

Frank averaged 1.4 pts per in 2015-16 season in Europe and 5.2 pts per in 2016-2017. Those numbers and a comment from a teammate that implied that Frank will not shoot the ball much suggests that he doesn't have a scorers mentality.

I heard what Payton said about improving in the NBA, but his makeup and background are different than Franks. Payton was a star in highschool, Freshman of the year in the Pac ten, and during his senior year, he was one of the top 2 or 3 players in the country. Payton showed that he could get buckets in high school and in college so the talent and the scorer's mentality was always there. Frank never put up offensive numbers like that, so the odds are against him to put up numbers like Payton.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/euro/players/frank-ntilikina-1.html

6'5 French guard and potential lottery pick Frank Ntilikina turned in an impressive six-game performance at the 2016 FIBA U18 European Championships in December, leading France to a title despite battling an illness early on in the tournament. After scoring only 7.3 points per game through the first three contests, Ntilikina finished the tournament averaging 22.7 points, 6.7 assists, 3.2 steals, 1.7 blocks and 5.0 turnovers per 40 minutes on 42.4% from two-point range and 58.6% from three-point range.

Dennis Rodman's college stats per wikipedia:

After his short stint in Gainesville, he transferred to Southeastern Oklahoma State University, an NAIA school. There, Rodman was a three-time NAIA All-American and led the NAIA in rebounding in both the 1984–1985 and 1985–1986 seasons. In three seasons there, 1983–1984 through 1985–1986, he averaged 25.7 points and 15.7 rebounds,[17] led the NAIA in rebounding twice and registered a .637 field goal percentage

My point is none of that really matters. I'm sure Frank would've put up gaudier numbers if he played in college for four years. In fact, he did score when he played at a lower level against his peers. Heck, even Rodman up numbers in college. All that changed when they made it to the big league. For all his accolades in college, GP stated that he was hesitant to drive and shoot his first year in the NBA. Even at 22 years of age. He realized none of the stuff he did in the PAC 10 mattered. I'm not saying Frank will drop 20 points a game in three years, but it's stretch to say the stats of a 17 year old playing against men professionally for the first time are indicative of much of anything. If you pulled stats from Frank playing against kids around his age, the I'd say you might have a point.
Unfortunately, there's not much around except his play at the U- 18, which he dominated according to most accounts.

Uptown wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Uptown wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Was saying the cutoff was the end of Frank's second season. If he's still essentially the same player on offense. Its likely if there is a real change in his game, its going to take all 4 years. If it happens at all.

Weird to have that opinion when just a few posts up is Gary Payton, describing how at 22 it took him 2 years before he figured out his offensive game and how pathetic it was during his first 2.

How does GP's development relate to franks? they're back rounds are nothing a like

They're both lottery picks who came into the league with games centered around defense. They also had to develop their offensive games. GP said he had to learn how to use his body to take advantage of smaller points. He also said he had to develop the confidence to become more agressive. Isn't that the same Brickley said he's working on with Frank?

Gary Payton averaged 25 pts per senior year in college....He had more of an offensive background than Frank did when he was drafted.

Frank avg. was like 20 something in the Final U18 euro tournament. You know how that's similar to GP's average in college? Both stats weren't accumulated in the NBA. GP's avg in his rookie year was similar to Frank's. And GP was like 3 years older. GP says it in the interview. He was afraid to drive and he couldn't shoot in his first few years in the NBA.

Frank averaged 1.4 pts per in 2015-16 season in Europe and 5.2 pts per in 2016-2017. Those numbers and a comment from a teammate that implied that Frank will not shoot the ball much suggests that he doesn't have a scorers mentality.

I heard what Payton said about improving in the NBA, but his makeup and background are different than Franks. Payton was a star in highschool, Freshman of the year in the Pac ten, and during his senior year, he was one of the top 2 or 3 players in the country. Payton showed that he could get buckets in high school and in college so the talent and the scorer's mentality was always there. Frank never put up offensive numbers like that, so the odds are against him to put up numbers like Payton.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/euro/players/frank-ntilikina-1.html

Payton may have had stronger scorers mentality when he was in High school. But its not an apples to apples comparison. Frank put up 1.4 and 5.2 playing in the pro league. High school environment in the 80s isn't the same environment of pro Euros in the 2010s. The only thing close to parallel is when Frank played the U18 cup which he won MVP and dropped like 20-28 pts in the semi and final. He didn't seem to have any hesitation shooting the rock in that environment.

So the question is will Frank ever get to a comfort level offensively like he did in the U18. Or will he stay passive within the pro setting?

But there is an point in time that he was aggressive offensively to draw from.

For Frank to defend at the level he is at 19 years old is just amazing. Even to play with the composure he often showed, calming the team down.
Yes, he has the measurements, but we all know measurements are just a part of the argument. He certainly has a defensive motor.
He has said numerous times, he LOVES to defend. It is going to take him time to change and adjust his (offensive) game, but it is happening. Don't confuse his lack of drive on offense with motor, it is more his game (though he did take over in the Euro championships.)

Anyone watch his new moves (e.g. jump turn around near the basket) in summer league?
We all want young guys with upside to come in and tear it up, but generally, that is just not possible.
We finally have what looks like a Nucleus. We do need another lottery pick and to strike it big in FA, but we are in the best position we have been in since... a long time.

I am really looking forward to Frank this year. He, and the rest of the young guys, are going to get to play a lot.

CrushAlot wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Was saying the cutoff was the end of Frank's second season. If he's still essentially the same player on offense. Its likely if there is a real change in his game, its going to take all 4 years. If it happens at all.

Weird to have that opinion when just a few posts up is Gary Payton, describing how at 22 it took him 2 years before he figured out his offensive game and how pathetic it was during his first 2.

Not sure why. The bolded raised the possibility that Frank turns the corner on offense in the second half of his rookie deal.

The part you left out was where I said that there was some risk involved in giving him all 4 years to develop, as far as his trade value.

You're suggesting that Frank might have the same breakthrough in his third season as Payton. Payton had something that Frank might not have, an attitude. How many players in NBA history had the same motor, the same attitude as Payton? He was a bundle of energy. It was a big driver of his game.

If you're suggesting that Frank could make that same leap, also turn into a player with that same edge. Its possible, but unlikely.

GP says in the interview that he wasn't aggressive offensively his first two years. His shot wasn't effective and he didn't drive the ball. He had to build his confidence up piece by piece. The only thing he had any confidence in coming into the league was his defense. You don't see any parallels? You don't compete on D like Frank if you're soft lol

You called him soft, not me. My point was that the leap Payton took, the mindset to become the biggest trash talking player in the league, HOF talent, the definition of attitude. Frank might not posess. The odds are against it. Not that he couldnt improve at all.

If after 2 years Frank is more or less the same player on offense, he shouldnt be considered untouchable. Thats what Im getting from some posters here.

Majority of the players in the league have their largest jump in production when they enter their 3rd yr in league. While I see the trade him at a point where his value would still be real high due to unknown potential. Would matter the deal. There is no deal on the table to discuss. Actively shopping him would be a bad idea. If a team offered a deal we couldn't refuse then like mist players on the team it called a deal you can't refuse for a reason. Frank regardless offers necessary skills for a team in his ability to stop penetration and PNR as well as switch on defense successfully from the PG position. That alone would make him a valuable piece to hold on a winning team even if a role player. There is really no logical reason to trade him away unless it a no brainer offer. Especially with him on rookie scale and even as a role player would make role player money. And he could be paired with any guard. Like how successful the Burke-Frank combination was. Or the fact that the KP-Frank plus minus was pretty damn high.

I mean if you can capitalize on his unknown potential for something greater then it should obviously be entertained and possible made if it made sense. But at the same time would need to hope that he never reaches his potential in that case. Or would have Knicks messed up bad especially if they had to package him along with other assets.

The first part of the bolded section is the thrust of what Im saying. If there is an opportunity to get better in the backcourt, and Frank still has a ways to go on offense, then Perry should go for it.

Disagree about the second part. Never did subscribe to the notion that if a player starts playing at another level several seasons down the road, that it was a mistake to trade them. For all we know it could be a change of scenery. city, coaches, teammates, that brought out a player's best.

I dont want to sell Frank for pennies on the dollar either. Ive commented negatively on trades involving Frank on this board that sold him short.

If it were to be several years than yea. If it was within the expected 3rd yr jump which is the league average for when players production drastically raise then no. And would strictly be attributed to lack of patience.

Frank is also a unique player. His PNR defense and switch ability is absolutely crucial for today's NBA. We KNOW that he will bring that aspect. We don't know how much that can effect the team when he matures though. These are abilities that not many teams can offer and may be something that forces the NBA to have to adapt to the Knicks. You don't seem to value this aspect at all.

I value 5 on 5 more than 4 on 5. Just want to see some progress next season on that front. Not asking a lot... back off man!!! LOL. We"ll see.what happens. Hope Frank shocks the world.

As we all would.

Frank was apart of 86% of the net positive lineups that the Knicks produced last season. It was with 14 different personnel groups if I remember correctly. With all different assortment of players. I've still yet to get an answer on how this is possible with him only averaging 6pts per game.

https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2017/11/17/new-york-knicks-frank-ntilikina-kristaps-porzingis-nba/

The numbers are stunning, albeit in a small sample size. When Porzingis and Ntilikina have been on the floor together the Knicks are outscoring opponents by more than 40 points per 100 possessions. Despite only playing 85 minutes together, they have a better plus/minus than any other pair of players on the roster. Why? It’s simple. They play defense.

The Knicks have an infinitesimal defensive rating of 83.8 (points allowed per 100 possessions) when both those guys are in the game at the same time. Their combined 14- foot-plus wingspan and ability to get their hands on the ball makes it very difficult for opponents to operate their offense.

I'm getting giddy right now thinking about when we add in Knox & Mitch.

IMO if Frank is adding net positives when all said and done to the team like this(Which he was doing as a 19 yr old rookie). Then his offensive would be worth waiting for especially with his work ethic. If he stops offering net positive contributions meaning his overall contributions toward winning is taking a step back due to his lack of offense then sure. But don't get me wrong I still expect him to improve his offensive game. Just that if he is contributing on the level he is analytically without it. It may be worth waiting to see what he can offer once his offensive game becomes solid enough.

Between the data available as well as the knowledge of knowing what stopping the PNR and successful switch defense from the PG position means. This is what forms my support for Frank due to what it may potentially mean for the Knicks.

Is there a more current article regarding Frank? Mid November?

KP got injured. I do remember there being something put up when Burke and Frank played together toward the end of the season though. You may have even been the one to post it.

Him attributing to 86% of the Knicks net positive lineups is a whole season worth of data though.

But forget any of that for a second. Do you believe Franks ability to guard the pick and ability to successfully switch hold major value for the Knicks?

Sure. But if the offense doesn't develop more then he is a rotation player, not a starting point guard.

why? if he's playing winning ball that's what matters. Players do it in different ways. Jason Kidd couldn't worth **** but won games.

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:The debate is about wether or not Frank will ever be more than a role player. Dont care how old Frank is, this season should tell us.

I thought you furiously walked back the "we should know what Frank will be by X date" back when video of Gary Payton was talking about how it was his 3rd year at at 24 before he figured out how to command his game on the offensive end. Or did I misread that?

Guess you furiously rummaged through your memory and came up with that caca. You will find that I wrote that Frank may not have tbe same mindset as Payton.

If Frank doesnt show a willingness to be aggressive on offense in his first 2 seasons, its likely to take a lot longer, if it happens at all. Thats what I said.

If Frank plays like a role player for all 4 years, guess what? He's probably a role player.

Thats what this debate has been about. Wether or not he will be more than a bench player. Not wether or not he will turn into Gary Payton.

Tell me how a 19 year old euro pg who has assist games of 5 (9 times), 6, 7 (2 times), 8 (3 times), 9 (2 times) 10 and 11, plays stellar defense and makes the following plays in his rookie nba year worries you that he’s going to be a role player in his 4th year?

Chandler wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Was saying the cutoff was the end of Frank's second season. If he's still essentially the same player on offense. Its likely if there is a real change in his game, its going to take all 4 years. If it happens at all.

Weird to have that opinion when just a few posts up is Gary Payton, describing how at 22 it took him 2 years before he figured out his offensive game and how pathetic it was during his first 2.

Not sure why. The bolded raised the possibility that Frank turns the corner on offense in the second half of his rookie deal.

The part you left out was where I said that there was some risk involved in giving him all 4 years to develop, as far as his trade value.

You're suggesting that Frank might have the same breakthrough in his third season as Payton. Payton had something that Frank might not have, an attitude. How many players in NBA history had the same motor, the same attitude as Payton? He was a bundle of energy. It was a big driver of his game.

If you're suggesting that Frank could make that same leap, also turn into a player with that same edge. Its possible, but unlikely.

GP says in the interview that he wasn't aggressive offensively his first two years. His shot wasn't effective and he didn't drive the ball. He had to build his confidence up piece by piece. The only thing he had any confidence in coming into the league was his defense. You don't see any parallels? You don't compete on D like Frank if you're soft lol

You called him soft, not me. My point was that the leap Payton took, the mindset to become the biggest trash talking player in the league, HOF talent, the definition of attitude. Frank might not posess. The odds are against it. Not that he couldnt improve at all.

If after 2 years Frank is more or less the same player on offense, he shouldnt be considered untouchable. Thats what Im getting from some posters here.

Majority of the players in the league have their largest jump in production when they enter their 3rd yr in league. While I see the trade him at a point where his value would still be real high due to unknown potential. Would matter the deal. There is no deal on the table to discuss. Actively shopping him would be a bad idea. If a team offered a deal we couldn't refuse then like mist players on the team it called a deal you can't refuse for a reason. Frank regardless offers necessary skills for a team in his ability to stop penetration and PNR as well as switch on defense successfully from the PG position. That alone would make him a valuable piece to hold on a winning team even if a role player. There is really no logical reason to trade him away unless it a no brainer offer. Especially with him on rookie scale and even as a role player would make role player money. And he could be paired with any guard. Like how successful the Burke-Frank combination was. Or the fact that the KP-Frank plus minus was pretty damn high.

I mean if you can capitalize on his unknown potential for something greater then it should obviously be entertained and possible made if it made sense. But at the same time would need to hope that he never reaches his potential in that case. Or would have Knicks messed up bad especially if they had to package him along with other assets.

The first part of the bolded section is the thrust of what Im saying. If there is an opportunity to get better in the backcourt, and Frank still has a ways to go on offense, then Perry should go for it.

Disagree about the second part. Never did subscribe to the notion that if a player starts playing at another level several seasons down the road, that it was a mistake to trade them. For all we know it could be a change of scenery. city, coaches, teammates, that brought out a player's best.

I dont want to sell Frank for pennies on the dollar either. Ive commented negatively on trades involving Frank on this board that sold him short.

If it were to be several years than yea. If it was within the expected 3rd yr jump which is the league average for when players production drastically raise then no. And would strictly be attributed to lack of patience.

Frank is also a unique player. His PNR defense and switch ability is absolutely crucial for today's NBA. We KNOW that he will bring that aspect. We don't know how much that can effect the team when he matures though. These are abilities that not many teams can offer and may be something that forces the NBA to have to adapt to the Knicks. You don't seem to value this aspect at all.

I value 5 on 5 more than 4 on 5. Just want to see some progress next season on that front. Not asking a lot... back off man!!! LOL. We"ll see.what happens. Hope Frank shocks the world.

As we all would.

Frank was apart of 86% of the net positive lineups that the Knicks produced last season. It was with 14 different personnel groups if I remember correctly. With all different assortment of players. I've still yet to get an answer on how this is possible with him only averaging 6pts per game.

https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2017/11/17/new-york-knicks-frank-ntilikina-kristaps-porzingis-nba/

The numbers are stunning, albeit in a small sample size. When Porzingis and Ntilikina have been on the floor together the Knicks are outscoring opponents by more than 40 points per 100 possessions. Despite only playing 85 minutes together, they have a better plus/minus than any other pair of players on the roster. Why? It’s simple. They play defense.

The Knicks have an infinitesimal defensive rating of 83.8 (points allowed per 100 possessions) when both those guys are in the game at the same time. Their combined 14- foot-plus wingspan and ability to get their hands on the ball makes it very difficult for opponents to operate their offense.

I'm getting giddy right now thinking about when we add in Knox & Mitch.

IMO if Frank is adding net positives when all said and done to the team like this(Which he was doing as a 19 yr old rookie). Then his offensive would be worth waiting for especially with his work ethic. If he stops offering net positive contributions meaning his overall contributions toward winning is taking a step back due to his lack of offense then sure. But don't get me wrong I still expect him to improve his offensive game. Just that if he is contributing on the level he is analytically without it. It may be worth waiting to see what he can offer once his offensive game becomes solid enough.

Between the data available as well as the knowledge of knowing what stopping the PNR and successful switch defense from the PG position means. This is what forms my support for Frank due to what it may potentially mean for the Knicks.

Is there a more current article regarding Frank? Mid November?

KP got injured. I do remember there being something put up when Burke and Frank played together toward the end of the season though. You may have even been the one to post it.

Him attributing to 86% of the Knicks net positive lineups is a whole season worth of data though.

But forget any of that for a second. Do you believe Franks ability to guard the pick and ability to successfully switch hold major value for the Knicks?

Sure. But if the offense doesn't develop more then he is a rotation player, not a starting point guard.

why? if he's playing winning ball that's what matters. Players do it in different ways. Jason Kidd couldn't worth **** but won games.

ekstarks94 wrote:

GoNyGoNyGo wrote:Nice to see Frank working at his game. His body looks much more filled out. He HAS the skills. We have seen them in glimpses. He just needs to want to be that kind of offensive player. It may come and it may not but its not an ability thing, IMO.

Agreed..