BigDaddyG wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Was saying the cutoff was the end of Frank's second season. If he's still essentially the same player on offense. Its likely if there is a real change in his game, its going to take all 4 years. If it happens at all.

Weird to have that opinion when just a few posts up is Gary Payton, describing how at 22 it took him 2 years before he figured out his offensive game and how pathetic it was during his first 2.

Not sure why. The bolded raised the possibility that Frank turns the corner on offense in the second half of his rookie deal.

The part you left out was where I said that there was some risk involved in giving him all 4 years to develop, as far as his trade value.

You're suggesting that Frank might have the same breakthrough in his third season as Payton. Payton had something that Frank might not have, an attitude. How many players in NBA history had the same motor, the same attitude as Payton? He was a bundle of energy. It was a big driver of his game.

If you're suggesting that Frank could make that same leap, also turn into a player with that same edge. Its possible, but unlikely.

GP says in the interview that he wasn't aggressive offensively his first two years. His shot wasn't effective and he didn't drive the ball. He had to build his confidence up piece by piece. The only thing he had any confidence in coming into the league was his defense. You don't see any parallels? You don't compete on D like Frank if you're soft lol

You called him soft, not me. My point was that the leap Payton took, the mindset to become the biggest trash talking player in the league, HOF talent, the definition of attitude. Frank might not posess. The odds are against it. Not that he couldnt improve at all.

If after 2 years Frank is more or less the same player on offense, he shouldnt be considered untouchable. Thats what Im getting from some posters here.

GustavBahler wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Was saying the cutoff was the end of Frank's second season. If he's still essentially the same player on offense. Its likely if there is a real change in his game, its going to take all 4 years. If it happens at all.

Weird to have that opinion when just a few posts up is Gary Payton, describing how at 22 it took him 2 years before he figured out his offensive game and how pathetic it was during his first 2.

Not sure why. The bolded raised the possibility that Frank turns the corner on offense in the second half of his rookie deal.

The part you left out was where I said that there was some risk involved in giving him all 4 years to develop, as far as his trade value.

You're suggesting that Frank might have the same breakthrough in his third season as Payton. Payton had something that Frank might not have, an attitude. How many players in NBA history had the same motor, the same attitude as Payton? He was a bundle of energy. It was a big driver of his game.

If you're suggesting that Frank could make that same leap, also turn into a player with that same edge. Its possible, but unlikely.

GP says in the interview that he wasn't aggressive offensively his first two years. His shot wasn't effective and he didn't drive the ball. He had to build his confidence up piece by piece. The only thing he had any confidence in coming into the league was his defense. You don't see any parallels? You don't compete on D like Frank if you're soft lol

You called him soft, not me. My point was that the leap Payton took, the mindset to become the biggest trash talking player in the league, HOF talent, the definition of attitude. Frank might not posess. The odds are against it. Not that he couldnt improve at all.

If after 2 years Frank is more or less the same player on offense, he shouldnt be considered untouchable. Thats what Im getting from some posters here.

Majority of the players in the league have their largest jump in production when they enter their 3rd yr in league. While I see the trade him at a point where his value would still be real high due to unknown potential. Would matter the deal. There is no deal on the table to discuss. Actively shopping him would be a bad idea. If a team offered a deal we couldn't refuse then like mist players on the team it called a deal you can't refuse for a reason. Frank regardless offers necessary skills for a team in his ability to stop penetration and PNR as well as switch on defense successfully from the PG position. That alone would make him a valuable piece to hold on a winning team even if a role player. There is really no logical reason to trade him away unless it a no brainer offer. Especially with him on rookie scale and even as a role player would make role player money. And he could be paired with any guard. Like how successful the Burke-Frank combination was. Or the fact that the KP-Frank plus minus was pretty damn high.

I mean if you can capitalize on his unknown potential for something greater then it should obviously be entertained and possible made if it made sense. But at the same time would need to hope that he never reaches his potential in that case. Or would have Knicks messed up bad especially if they had to package him along with other assets.

BigDaddyG wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Was saying the cutoff was the end of Frank's second season. If he's still essentially the same player on offense. Its likely if there is a real change in his game, its going to take all 4 years. If it happens at all.

Weird to have that opinion when just a few posts up is Gary Payton, describing how at 22 it took him 2 years before he figured out his offensive game and how pathetic it was during his first 2.

Not sure why. The bolded raised the possibility that Frank turns the corner on offense in the second half of his rookie deal.

The part you left out was where I said that there was some risk involved in giving him all 4 years to develop, as far as his trade value.

You're suggesting that Frank might have the same breakthrough in his third season as Payton. Payton had something that Frank might not have, an attitude. How many players in NBA history had the same motor, the same attitude as Payton? He was a bundle of energy. It was a big driver of his game.

If you're suggesting that Frank could make that same leap, also turn into a player with that same edge. Its possible, but unlikely.

GP says in the interview that he wasn't aggressive offensively his first two years. His shot wasn't effective and he didn't drive the ball. He had to build his confidence up piece by piece. The only thing he had any confidence in coming into the league was his defense. You don't see any parallels? You don't compete on D like Frank if you're soft lol

What makes frank a good defender is his height and wing span, not his moter

knicks1248 wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Was saying the cutoff was the end of Frank's second season. If he's still essentially the same player on offense. Its likely if there is a real change in his game, its going to take all 4 years. If it happens at all.

Weird to have that opinion when just a few posts up is Gary Payton, describing how at 22 it took him 2 years before he figured out his offensive game and how pathetic it was during his first 2.

Not sure why. The bolded raised the possibility that Frank turns the corner on offense in the second half of his rookie deal.

The part you left out was where I said that there was some risk involved in giving him all 4 years to develop, as far as his trade value.

You're suggesting that Frank might have the same breakthrough in his third season as Payton. Payton had something that Frank might not have, an attitude. How many players in NBA history had the same motor, the same attitude as Payton? He was a bundle of energy. It was a big driver of his game.

If you're suggesting that Frank could make that same leap, also turn into a player with that same edge. Its possible, but unlikely.

GP says in the interview that he wasn't aggressive offensively his first two years. His shot wasn't effective and he didn't drive the ball. He had to build his confidence up piece by piece. The only thing he had any confidence in coming into the league was his defense. You don't see any parallels? You don't compete on D like Frank if you're soft lol

What makes frank a good defender is his height and wing span, not his moter

His willingness to defend, and his IQ defensively playing angles and proper leverage. There is a bunch of film work on his defense showing such. He wasn't afraid to challenge Kryie or Hardens dribble at the risk of embarrassing himself.

BigDaddyG wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Was saying the cutoff was the end of Frank's second season. If he's still essentially the same player on offense. Its likely if there is a real change in his game, its going to take all 4 years. If it happens at all.

Weird to have that opinion when just a few posts up is Gary Payton, describing how at 22 it took him 2 years before he figured out his offensive game and how pathetic it was during his first 2.

Not sure why. The bolded raised the possibility that Frank turns the corner on offense in the second half of his rookie deal.

The part you left out was where I said that there was some risk involved in giving him all 4 years to develop, as far as his trade value.

You're suggesting that Frank might have the same breakthrough in his third season as Payton. Payton had something that Frank might not have, an attitude. How many players in NBA history had the same motor, the same attitude as Payton? He was a bundle of energy. It was a big driver of his game.

If you're suggesting that Frank could make that same leap, also turn into a player with that same edge. Its possible, but unlikely.

GP says in the interview that he wasn't aggressive offensively his first two years. His shot wasn't effective and he didn't drive the ball. He had to build his confidence up piece by piece. The only thing he had any confidence in coming into the league was his defense. You don't see any parallels? You don't compete on D like Frank if you're soft lol

What makes frank a good defender is his height and wing span, not his moter

That's ridiculous. There are plenty of long NBA players who aren't good defenders. Defense is a mindset. You see the way he doesn't give up on picks? The come from behind blocked shots on the fast break? Those plays suggest he is very competitive and takes pride in his man not scoring.

I didn't know I needed to point out his IQ, that was one of the main reason phil wanted him, along with his pass 1st, 2nd and 3rd mentality.

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Was saying the cutoff was the end of Frank's second season. If he's still essentially the same player on offense. Its likely if there is a real change in his game, its going to take all 4 years. If it happens at all.

Weird to have that opinion when just a few posts up is Gary Payton, describing how at 22 it took him 2 years before he figured out his offensive game and how pathetic it was during his first 2.

Not sure why. The bolded raised the possibility that Frank turns the corner on offense in the second half of his rookie deal.

The part you left out was where I said that there was some risk involved in giving him all 4 years to develop, as far as his trade value.

You're suggesting that Frank might have the same breakthrough in his third season as Payton. Payton had something that Frank might not have, an attitude. How many players in NBA history had the same motor, the same attitude as Payton? He was a bundle of energy. It was a big driver of his game.

If you're suggesting that Frank could make that same leap, also turn into a player with that same edge. Its possible, but unlikely.

GP says in the interview that he wasn't aggressive offensively his first two years. His shot wasn't effective and he didn't drive the ball. He had to build his confidence up piece by piece. The only thing he had any confidence in coming into the league was his defense. You don't see any parallels? You don't compete on D like Frank if you're soft lol

What makes frank a good defender is his height and wing span, not his moter

Uh, pretty much in life you can't be really good at anything at a high level without both motor and IQ. To say what you did is ridiculous.

Knox has a high motor, Amare has a high motor, burke has a high motor, westbrook has a high motor, Mj, magic, kobe does frank play that way..frank has a high IQ and plays with calmness, calculated and passive approach. I barely see him sweat.

Now when I talk about high motor, Im talking about a player who plays with a lot of energy, always moving, physical by nature, always getting to the FT line. what exactly is your definition ?

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Frank-Ntilikina-77051/

Not as well-known among the casual fan as the college guards, Ntilikina is a high-floor prospect who is destined for, at the very least, a long career as a versatile, two-way player with a high IQ and professional approach to the game. With the physical profile of an NBA two guard (6'6 with a 7-foot wingspan and a projectable frame) and a high motor, Ntilikina projects as a three-position defender who can make a spot up three, play off of closeouts, execute the simple pass while on or off the ball, and use his long strides to slither his way to the rim out of pick and roll. A high character young man by way of Belgium (the son of Rwandan refugees), Ntilikina should be viewed as more of a slow and steady' prospect who isn't likely to provide much wow factor out of the gates like a De'Aaron Fox or Dennis Smith might - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Frank-Ntilikina-77051/ © Draft express

He sure looks like he's playing with energy to me in these highlights. Again, there are plenty guys like Dumars, Duncan, Mitch Richmond etc. who played with energy and intensity without being demonstrative on the court.

BigDaddyG wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Was saying the cutoff was the end of Frank's second season. If he's still essentially the same player on offense. Its likely if there is a real change in his game, its going to take all 4 years. If it happens at all.

Weird to have that opinion when just a few posts up is Gary Payton, describing how at 22 it took him 2 years before he figured out his offensive game and how pathetic it was during his first 2.

Not sure why. The bolded raised the possibility that Frank turns the corner on offense in the second half of his rookie deal.

The part you left out was where I said that there was some risk involved in giving him all 4 years to develop, as far as his trade value.

You're suggesting that Frank might have the same breakthrough in his third season as Payton. Payton had something that Frank might not have, an attitude. How many players in NBA history had the same motor, the same attitude as Payton? He was a bundle of energy. It was a big driver of his game.

If you're suggesting that Frank could make that same leap, also turn into a player with that same edge. Its possible, but unlikely.

GP says in the interview that he wasn't aggressive offensively his first two years. His shot wasn't effective and he didn't drive the ball. He had to build his confidence up piece by piece. The only thing he had any confidence in coming into the league was his defense. You don't see any parallels? You don't compete on D like Frank if you're soft lol

You called him soft, not me. My point was that the leap Payton took, the mindset to become the biggest trash talking player in the league, HOF talent, the definition of attitude. Frank might not posess. The odds are against it. Not that he couldnt improve at all.

If after 2 years Frank is more or less the same player on offense, he shouldnt be considered untouchable. Thats what Im getting from some posters here.

I didn't call him soft. I said his toughness on defense suggests he isn't. As far as him being untouchable...no one is untouchable on this roster. All it takes is the right deal. I'm not saying Frank will become the the biggest trash talker in the league. You don't have to talk trash to have the same intensity. Joe Dumars and John Stockton were hardly trash talkers and I'd take them both over Marbury, who was one if the leagues biggest trash talkers. But it took GP, who was older when he came into the league, three years to be decent offensively. You can't put a timeframe on these things. You just want to see improvement. What if he doesn't carry a high useage, but is a lot more efficient in the shots he takes? I'd rather see that than him throwing up shots for the sake of being aggressive.

I was saying that you used the word soft in this conversation, not me. Im not suggesting that Frank needs to talk trash. Im saying the sudden leap Payton took to stardom was fueled in large part by his high octane personality, not the trash talking.

Payton underwent this big, sudden dramatic change in his game, that I dont see Frank emulating after year 2 if there is no real progress on offense.

Dont remember those other players undergoing the same metamorphasis. Again, not suggesting Frank cant get better, if he does I believe it wont happen as suddenly, and dramatically. Makes it harder to tell when Frank will reach tbe next level on offense, if at all. If there is a trade out there involving Frank for a young player who is less of a question mark, or has more upside, then Perry should at least consider it.

ekstarks94 wrote:Why is the board adamant about having scoring from the pg position?

I agree that Frank needs to do enough to keep them honest, but if Frank brings 10-14 pts, 5-6 asts, 3-5 rebs, and the ability to slow down the opp team 20-25ppg pg down to 12-16 ppg, then I believe he is worth his weight in gold. KP, Knox, and Tim are going to score....they need a set-up man...Frank can do that in spades....he is not proficient in the drive and kick, but Knox and Timmy can take it to the rack and do not have to be relegated to the corner kick.

If Frank put up those numbers next season, that would be real progress. If we have to wait all 4 years to get to that point. Chances are guys are going to pass him for minutes in the meantime. Its about how long it takes to get there.

Wouldnt blame you for invoking his age. At the same time coaches have their own timetable, GMs as well. They're preaching patience, but also want to see progress.

Hope Frank plays more like he did before he got hurt in SL. Looking for his shot, not overthinking things.

We saw the old Frank on offense, and a new improved Frank, in SL. We'll see next season which game will win out.

GustavBahler wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Was saying the cutoff was the end of Frank's second season. If he's still essentially the same player on offense. Its likely if there is a real change in his game, its going to take all 4 years. If it happens at all.

Weird to have that opinion when just a few posts up is Gary Payton, describing how at 22 it took him 2 years before he figured out his offensive game and how pathetic it was during his first 2.

Not sure why. The bolded raised the possibility that Frank turns the corner on offense in the second half of his rookie deal.

The part you left out was where I said that there was some risk involved in giving him all 4 years to develop, as far as his trade value.

You're suggesting that Frank might have the same breakthrough in his third season as Payton. Payton had something that Frank might not have, an attitude. How many players in NBA history had the same motor, the same attitude as Payton? He was a bundle of energy. It was a big driver of his game.

If you're suggesting that Frank could make that same leap, also turn into a player with that same edge. Its possible, but unlikely.

GP says in the interview that he wasn't aggressive offensively his first two years. His shot wasn't effective and he didn't drive the ball. He had to build his confidence up piece by piece. The only thing he had any confidence in coming into the league was his defense. You don't see any parallels? You don't compete on D like Frank if you're soft lol

You called him soft, not me. My point was that the leap Payton took, the mindset to become the biggest trash talking player in the league, HOF talent, the definition of attitude. Frank might not posess. The odds are against it. Not that he couldnt improve at all.

If after 2 years Frank is more or less the same player on offense, he shouldnt be considered untouchable. Thats what Im getting from some posters here.

I didn't call him soft. I said his toughness on defense suggests he isn't. As far as him being untouchable...no one is untouchable on this roster. All it takes is the right deal. I'm not saying Frank will become the the biggest trash talker in the league. You don't have to talk trash to have the same intensity. Joe Dumars and John Stockton were hardly trash talkers and I'd take them both over Marbury, who was one if the leagues biggest trash talkers. But it took GP, who was older when he came into the league, three years to be decent offensively. You can't put a timeframe on these things. You just want to see improvement. What if he doesn't carry a high useage, but is a lot more efficient in the shots he takes? I'd rather see that than him throwing up shots for the sake of being aggressive.

I was saying that you used the word soft in this conversation, not me. Im not suggesting that Frank needs to talk trash. Im saying the sudden leap Payton took to stardom was fueled in large part by his high octane personality, not the trash talking.

Payton underwent this big, sudden dramatic change in his game, that I dont see Frank emulating after year 2 if there is no real progress on offense.

Dont remember those other players undergoing the same metamorphasis. Again, not suggesting Frank cant get better, if he does I believe it wont happen as suddenly, and dramatically. Makes it harder to tell when Frank will reach tbe next level on offense, if at all. If there is a trade out there involving Frank for a young player who is less of a question mark, or has more upside, then Perry should at least consider it.

GustavBahler wrote:

ekstarks94 wrote:Why is the board adamant about having scoring from the pg position?

I agree that Frank needs to do enough to keep them honest, but if Frank brings 10-14 pts, 5-6 asts, 3-5 rebs, and the ability to slow down the opp team 20-25ppg pg down to 12-16 ppg, then I believe he is worth his weight in gold. KP, Knox, and Tim are going to score....they need a set-up man...Frank can do that in spades....he is not proficient in the drive and kick, but Knox and Timmy can take it to the rack and do not have to be relegated to the corner kick.

If Frank put up those numbers next season, that would be real progress. If we have to wait all 4 years to get to that point. Chances are guys are going to pass him for minutes in the meantime. Its about how long it takes to get there.

Wouldnt blame you for invoking his age. At the same time coaches have their own timetable, GMs as well. They're preaching patience, but also want to see progress.

Hope Frank plays more like he did before he got hurt in SL. Looking for his shot, not overthinking things.

We saw the old Frank on offense, and a new improved Frank, in SL. We'll see next season which game will win out.

BigDaddyG wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Was saying the cutoff was the end of Frank's second season. If he's still essentially the same player on offense. Its likely if there is a real change in his game, its going to take all 4 years. If it happens at all.

Weird to have that opinion when just a few posts up is Gary Payton, describing how at 22 it took him 2 years before he figured out his offensive game and how pathetic it was during his first 2.

Not sure why. The bolded raised the possibility that Frank turns the corner on offense in the second half of his rookie deal.

The part you left out was where I said that there was some risk involved in giving him all 4 years to develop, as far as his trade value.

You're suggesting that Frank might have the same breakthrough in his third season as Payton. Payton had something that Frank might not have, an attitude. How many players in NBA history had the same motor, the same attitude as Payton? He was a bundle of energy. It was a big driver of his game.

If you're suggesting that Frank could make that same leap, also turn into a player with that same edge. Its possible, but unlikely.

GP says in the interview that he wasn't aggressive offensively his first two years. His shot wasn't effective and he didn't drive the ball. He had to build his confidence up piece by piece. The only thing he had any confidence in coming into the league was his defense. You don't see any parallels? You don't compete on D like Frank if you're soft lol

You called him soft, not me. My point was that the leap Payton took, the mindset to become the biggest trash talking player in the league, HOF talent, the definition of attitude. Frank might not posess. The odds are against it. Not that he couldnt improve at all.

If after 2 years Frank is more or less the same player on offense, he shouldnt be considered untouchable. Thats what Im getting from some posters here.

I didn't call him soft. I said his toughness on defense suggests he isn't. As far as him being untouchable...no one is untouchable on this roster. All it takes is the right deal. I'm not saying Frank will become the the biggest trash talker in the league. You don't have to talk trash to have the same intensity. Joe Dumars and John Stockton were hardly trash talkers and I'd take them both over Marbury, who was one if the leagues biggest trash talkers. But it took GP, who was older when he came into the league, three years to be decent offensively. You can't put a timeframe on these things. You just want to see improvement. What if he doesn't carry a high useage, but is a lot more efficient in the shots he takes? I'd rather see that than him throwing up shots for the sake of being aggressive.

I was saying that you used the word soft in this conversation, not me. Im not suggesting that Frank needs to talk trash. Im saying the sudden leap Payton took to stardom was fueled in large part by his high octane personality, not the trash talking.

Payton underwent this big, sudden dramatic change in his game, that I dont see Frank emulating after year 2 if there is no real progress on offense.

Dont remember those other players undergoing the same metamorphasis. Again, not suggesting Frank cant get better, if he does I believe it wont happen as suddenly, and dramatically. Makes it harder to tell when Frank will reach tbe next level on offense, if at all. If there is a trade out there involving Frank for a young player who is less of a question mark, or has more upside, then Perry should at least consider it.

Not the first time we disagreed on a subject centered around Frank lol I'd say hard work and competitiveness are what fueled GP improvement. Those are the key traits he shred with Frank. Some guys are wired like GP and some are wired like Wilson Chandler. It's physical talent and IQ that will determine where Frank windsbuo at day's end. I think Frank just needs more confidence. Like Brickley said, it took Frank a while to realize the skills he worked on last summer would be effective at the NBA level. I think those small moments will build his confidence and he will become more aggressive. Will become as good a scorer as GP? Probably not. I rank GP four or five, maybe even three, on the all-time great PG's list. Can Frank be a solid scorer? I think so.j

If we can plainly see tbe makings of a good scorer next season, I'll be satisfied.